How Many Years In Prison Does Thaksin Deserve?

[emancipationthailand]

I realize that feelings about Thaksin run high. Some object to the deaths of 3000 drug dealers in principal while other point that a couple of hundred were innocent. Pro Thaksin supporters justify the hard line and probably believe that many 1000s of lives have been saved by the crackdown even if it resulted in the deaths of a few hundred. Pro-Thaksin supporters look to the redistirbution of income which was unparalleled in SE Asia while anti Thaksin supporters believe that someone who sold his company for US$2bn and paid not tax has no moral authority to run any country.

It just goes on, other Thai PMs ordered the shooting of protesters and were not jailed and other Thai PMs were involved in the majority of drug smuggling within the country.

The worst problem with Thaksin is that he created a huge divisive and destructive divide within the country. If he is ignored and gradually forgotten that divide will eventually erode which is in everyones best interests. If he is brought back to this country and tried through an unelected government (assuming you believe votes should not be restricted to say intelligent people with an Oxford/ Cambridge degree) it will only re-ignite past differences.

I know anti-Thaksin people claim moral precedence over what they consider a corrupt and immoral man but they should at least realize that the only reason he is not in power is that they have abused a democratic system which they hold so dearly.

Let him fade away for the good of everyone.

"The worst problem with Thaksin is that he created a huge divisive and destructive divide within the country" >>>> All red shirts think it's rather Sonthi Limthongkul, the owner of Manager Groups and a few oversea publications, and Suthichai Yun the owner of the Nation Group. (Yup this very forum) The two personal enemies of Taksin are the ones who started it all.

[Jingthing]

All red shirts think

Since when does a mob of true believers think?

For farangs that still didn't realized this, your mode of thoughts is almost 1-year outdated, which is quite ancient considering the current situation.

Please tell us your personal opinion about this so called CURRENT mode of thought. Just describing another mode of thought as outdated is MEANINGLESS. More info please, OK, if you are capable of doing so ...

I mean IN YOUR OWN WORDS, not a link to a 10,000 word cut and paste article

and/or the latest edition of Truth Today

...

Another point, while I think it is probably true that a good portion of foreigner anti-Thaksinista are sympathetic to Abhisit (especially after surviving assassination attempts by the red mobs) that DOES NOT mean that most of us are necessarily pro PAD. I know the reds like to color things that simply, but it simply ain't so ...

Edited August 8, 2009 by Jingthing

[emancipationthailand]

All red shirts think

Since when does a mob of true believers think?

For farangs that still didn't realized this, your mode of thoughts is almost 1-year outdated, which is quite ancient considering the current situation.

Please tell us your personal opinion about this so called CURRENT mode of thought. Just describing another mode of thought as outdated is MEANINGLESS. More info please, OK, if you are capable of doing so ...

I mean IN YOUR OWN WORDS, not a link to a 10,000 word cut and paste article ...

Nah, for your own benefit, i insist that farangs must experience it themselves. ^^

Please continue to be your happy self. : )

[Jingthing]

Nah, for your own benefit, i insist that farangs must experience it themselves. ^^

Your response is meaningless.

This is a forum, you are supposed to SAY what you mean, not play mind games. Ugh! If you can't write English well enough to express your meanings, just say that too, there is no shame in that.

Edited August 8, 2009 by Jingthing

[FD333]

Frodo (post 236) pretty much sums up the Thaksin reign perfectly.

How people can simply disregard the drug war murders, the attacks on freedom of speech, the tax dodging, the horrendous policy in Southern Thailand (and further deaths) etc is beyond me.

Go back. Anyone remember him bragging in the media about the fortune he made as the baht devalued? Then casually declaring next sentence that it wasn't because his buddy Chavalit tipped him off, but because he was so smart. Remember how that gang bought the country and Asia to its knees but they all came out with their pockets lined?

I thought him a prat when campagning for the position of Governor of Bangkok when promising to solve the city's taffic problems within 6 months. I thought him a bigger prat for then resigning within months of winning the position. But, we should have all been feeling dire when without a beat he managed to subvert and corrupt the new constitution and have the Supreme Court declare him innocent of hiding his assets (the ones under his maids and driver's names) and declare the purchase of temple lands for Alpine Golf Course was legal and he could therefore ascend to the position of "CEO of Thailand"

[flying]

Nah, for your own benefit, i insist that farangs must experience it themselves. ^^

Your response is meaningless.

This is a forum, you are supposed to SAY what you mean, not play mind games. Ugh! If you can't write English well enough to express your meanings, just say that too, there is no shame in that.

Yes yet that person you ridicule is a Thai who obviously speaks & writes English & is actually qualified to judge/vote on Thai politics which you are not. Can you do the same with the Thai language? In a Thai country where you seek to judge the politics. Yet cannot speak or write as well as a 8 year old Thai boy? Yet you will decide the political future?

Yet you lecture about Forum usage & cannot grasp the the simple reply button that would include a quote of the previous message WITH the Posters name.

It is ALL of your responses to Thai politics that are meaningless & a good reason to keep falangs like yourself limited to no rights in LOS.

Edited August 8, 2009 by flying

[Abrak]

Some object to the deaths of 3000 drug dealers in principal while other point that a couple of hundred were innocent.

It wasn't just a couple hundred. 1500 people were found to have had no connections at all with drugs, out of the 2500 people killed. Note that this does not mean the remaining 1000 were guilty either.

Without getting into all the stats - 52,000 arrests, 90% reduction in drug use or whatever - it is simply the case that while you might find the Government's tactics inhumane, unjustified and barbaric, they were consistently supported by the majority of Thai people who presumably felt that the harsh measures justified the end result.

And that is exactly my point. Bringing him back and prosecuting him for actions supported by the majority of Thais will only exacerbate divisions in society. What you might see as justice (he didnt order anyone to shoot anyone by the way - he actually offered an amnesty) will be seen as a gross injustice by many/most. Why get so excited anyway? When in the days of the NPKC and other Generals with jewelry loving wives were actually running the country.

While say you think locking up is fair, others clearly dont. I just cant believe that his prosecution is in anyones best interests.

[Insight]

I realize that feelings about Thaksin run high. Some object to the deaths of 3000 drug dealers in principal while other point that a couple of hundred were innocent. Pro Thaksin supporters justify the hard line and probably believe that many 1000s of lives have been saved by the crackdown even if it resulted in the deaths of a few hundred. Pro-Thaksin supporters look to the redistirbution of income which was unparalleled in SE Asia while anti Thaksin supporters believe that someone who sold his company for US$2bn and paid not tax has no moral authority to run any country.

It just goes on, other Thai PMs ordered the shooting of protesters and were not jailed and other Thai PMs were involved in the majority of drug smuggling within the country.

The worst problem with Thaksin is that he created a huge divisive and destructive divide within the country. If he is ignored and gradually forgotten that divide will eventually erode which is in everyones best interests. If he is brought back to this country and tried through an unelected government (assuming you believe votes should not be restricted to say intelligent people with an Oxford/ Cambridge degree) it will only re-ignite past differences.

I know anti-Thaksin people claim moral precedence over what they consider a corrupt and immoral man but they should at least realize that the only reason he is not in power is that they have abused a democratic system which they hold so dearly.

Let him fade away for the good of everyone.

"The worst problem with Thaksin is that he created a huge divisive and destructive divide within the country" >>>> All red shirts think it's rather Sonthi Limthongkul, the owner of Manager Groups and a few oversea publications, and Suthichai Yun the owner of the Nation Group. (Yup this very forum) The two personal enemies of Taksin are the ones who started it all.

No, Thaksin started the momentum against him, by selling AIS to Singapore and bragging about not paying tax. Sonthi, Chamlong et all recognised the anger of many people regarding this move and started a movement. A movement whose popularity has since faded with the takeover of the airport.

[Insight]

Frodo (post 236) pretty much sums up the Thaksin reign perfectly.

How people can simply disregard the drug war murders, the attacks on freedom of speech, the tax dodging, the horrendous policy in Southern Thailand (and further deaths) etc is beyond me.

Go back. Anyone remember him bragging in the media about the fortune he made as the baht devalued? Then casually declaring next sentence that it wasn't because his buddy Chavalit tipped him off, but because he was so smart. Remember how that gang bought the country and Asia to its knees but they all came out with their pockets lined?

I thought him a prat when campagning for the position of Governor of Bangkok when promising to solve the city's taffic problems within 6 months. I thought him a bigger prat for then resigning within months of winning the position. But, we should have all been feeling dire when without a beat he managed to subvert and corrupt the new constitution and have the Supreme Court declare him innocent of hiding his assets (the ones under his maids and driver's names) and declare the purchase of temple lands for Alpine Golf Course was legal and he could therefore ascend to the position of "CEO of Thailand"

It is absolutely no surprise to me that nobody has challenged any part of Frodo's post.

It's clear what an uphill struggle this is when even long-term forum users are adopting the "so what? everybody's corrupt" mentality.

[Abrak]

No, Thaksin started the momentum against him, by selling AIS to Singapore and bragging about not paying tax. Sonthi, Chamlong et all recognised the anger of many people regarding this move and started a movement. A movement whose popularity has since faded with the takeover of the airport.

He wasnt actually liable for tax as the shares were listed on the stock exchange.

But I entirely agree with your point that the day it took US$2bn from the sale of his business and paid no tax (or donated say 30% of the proceeds to the country) he lost all moral right to govern the country in the eyes of anyone of vague intelligence. In my opinion that greed and selfishness would have led to his downfall even without a coup.

[DP25]

Without getting into all the stats - 52,000 arrests, 90% reduction in drug use or whatever - it is simply the case that while you might find the Government's tactics inhumane, unjustified and barbaric, they were consistently supported by the majority of Thai people who presumably felt that the harsh measures justified the end result.

I don't believe that 90% reduction figure for a second. But regardless, killing 1500 people who now are known to not have been involved in drugs is unacceptable. There was no need for a war on drugs, it was conjured up in Thakin's imagination as a way to deflect attention away from corruption charges. Go to Brazil, or Colombia, or Mexico, where people die all the time in drug gang violence and it is dangerous to walk to the streets at night to see a real situation that may require harsh measures. Those conditions simply never existed in Thailand to begin with. This war was purely a prpopganda measure, whose cassus belle did not exist in real life.

As for him not ordering anyone to be shot, I don't buy that as well. The entire war was his idea.

[Abrak]

I don't believe that 90% reduction figure for a second. But regardless, killing 1500 people who now are known to not have been involved in drugs is unacceptable. There was no need for a war on drugs, it was conjured up in Thakin's imagination as a way to deflect attention away from corruption charges. Go to Brazil, or Colombia, or Mexico, where people die all the time in drug gang violence and it is dangerous to walk to the streets at night to see a real situation that may require harsh measures. Those conditions simply never existed in Thailand to begin with. This war was purely a prpopganda measure, whose cassus belle did not exist in real life.

As for him not ordering anyone to be shot, I don't buy that as well. The entire war was his idea.

Forgetting all the stats. You want to send someone to jail (like many other people) for instigating the deaths of people without due process. At least half the population (many of whom probably appreciate the collateral damage) firmly believe it was a brave and correct policy that benefited the country.

So even if I totally agreed with your stand point, lets face it, his assets have been seized, he has been forced out of power and is an exile. Bringing him to Thailand and prosecuting for a policy that is largely supported by the populace will achieve nothing and enhance the divisions (including the lack of democracy, OEs have a divine right to rule the country etc) and create a martyr for the working classes. Just forget about the rights and wrongs and consider what is best for the country.

And while someone said that other leaders being corrupt was not a reason to fail to imprison this one, by not sending him to jail you are hardly setting a precedent. Lets think Banharn, Chavalit, Suchinda, Sunthorn (he was a piece of work). You wish to bring Thaksin to justice while Chalerm might end up as PM. Its a bit like prosecuting a night club owner for a death in his club rather than the murderer.

[spongeman]

None.

This unelected government needs to stop concentrating on him and carry out the job that they were given no mandate to do.

[DP25]

None.

This unelected government needs to stop concentrating on him and carry out the job that they were given no mandate to do.

The current anti Thaksin coalition government received over 60% of the vote. Thaksin's proxy party received 35%.

[Abrak]

None.

This unelected government needs to stop concentrating on him and carry out the job that they were given no mandate to do.

The current anti Thaksin coalition government received over 60% of the vote. Thaksin's proxy party received 35%.

I hope you accept that a large proportion of the 'anti Thaksin coalition government' also formed part of the 'Thaksin proxy party coalition government'. You are also implying that a politician like Newin Chidchob has a view other than he will do whatever is best for him at the time. (Please note I fully accept that the Democrats association with Newin is highly embarrassing but given the alternative was Chalerm they can at least make some excuse.)

But rather like a believer in Thaksin might wish him to rule the country, I would hope that they could see how destructive it would be, I really wish that people who want to see Thaksin locked up, rather than saying a guilty man should go to jail (and that other guilty parties have not gone to jail is no excuse) can simply see that it is in the country's best interests that he is ignored and forgotten.

In fact placing him in jail would be disastrous,

[dumbnewbie]

Many innocents were in fact gunned down, including a 7 year old child. The Thaksin style war on drugs is was a crime against humanity, though many apologists on this forum will certainly downplay this. Thaksin demanded quotas be met, regardless if the those murdered were dealers or not. It was nothing but a murderous rampage, media manipulation by his government, and a way to continue his popularity. It is a shame that he can't be tried on the international level.

Why can't he be? Isn't there some kind of international court in the Hague?

[dumbnewbie]

I'm under no illusion whatsoever that Thaksin undertook these thousands of killings single-handedly - he obviously did not. But crucially he was the one who gave the order. For that he should be held accountable, as should all the people involved. Will it happen? Very unlikley. Should it happen? Without a shadow of a doubt. Why do people defend him of this crime and celebrate his ability to evade punishment for it? I have absolutely no clue. They obviously have zero empathy for those who lost loved ones. I hope that's a tragedy they never have to deal with.

But WHY is this very unlikely to happen? Why hasn't it already happened? The current Thai government is anti-Thaksin, right? So why don't they try him, convict him and hold him accountable? Why doesn't the whole international community do the same, if he really committed so many horrible crimes?

The fact that they don't even bring him to trial suggests to me that maybe they know their charges wouldn't stand in a court of law. In which case, he's innocent, right?

For the record, I have empathy for anyone who loses a loved one. That's a tragedy we ALL have to deal with sooner or later; I already have more than once.

[wolfmanjack]

Not of killing anyone, which is what the Thaksin haters are using to justify their hatred.

He is not guilty until it is proven in a court of law!

I don't agree with that. there are many innocent people that have been found guilty and many guilty people that have been found innocent by the courts. Also many guilty people have been let go due to technicalities.

Being actually guilty or innocent has little to do with "being found guilty or innocent in the eyes of the law".

[wolfmanjack]

.

The fact that they don't even bring him to trial suggests to me that maybe they know their charges wouldn't stand in a court of law. In which case, he's innocent, right?

So you are saying that the gangs who commit murder and do not get prosecuted because the witnesses are too terrified to testify are actually innocent?

[dumbnewbie]

Indeed, what he did was to commit genocide. A very very serious crime.

How some can defend him for that is beyond me.

Genocide? Come on.

As for me, I'm not defending him - I'm just asking questions. I honestly don't know, and I'm trying to learn more. But I'm a skeptical sort - I don't come to believe things easily. I can't be bullied into believing something, and I don't just go along with the herd either. I need evidence, or at least good reason to believe something.

[wolfmanjack]

No, Thaksin started the momentum against him, by selling AIS to Singapore and bragging about not paying tax. Sonthi, Chamlong et all recognised the anger of many people regarding this move and started a movement. A movement whose popularity has since faded with the takeover of the airport.

He wasnt actually liable for tax as the shares were listed on the stock exchange.

But I entirely agree with your point that the day it took US$2bn from the sale of his business and paid no tax (or donated say 30% of the proceeds to the country) he lost all moral right to govern the country in the eyes of anyone of vague intelligence. In my opinion that greed and selfishness would have led to his downfall even without a coup.

If i remember correctly it was deemed that he was liable for tax because the shares were not sold through the stock exchange. For the sale to be tax free the shares have to listed for sale on the stock exchange so anyone can buy them. Not sold in a private transaction.

[dumbnewbie]

No where near 3000 drug dealers were put out of business. Investigations in to Thaksin "war on drugs" have shown that the vast majority 3000 people murdered without trial had absolutely no connections with drugs at all. People killed were political opponents, people who had recently won the lottery, people the police just didn't like, or a variety of other reasons, as the police were given death quotas that they had to fill, whether they were able to find actual drug dealers or not.

The entire war on drugs was a sham to begin with, it was launched SOLELY to divert media attention from the multiple corruption cases that he was facing. There was no need for a war, Bangkok is not Bogata, you can safely walk the streets at night without being gunned down by drug dealers. It was an artificial war that executed thousands of innocent citizens for the sole purpose of protecting Thaksin from corruption charges. These were not drug dealers that were killed, they were innocent Thai citizens, and the man is truly one of the greatest monsters of our time.

OK, taking that at face value, does it really suggest that Thaksin did such a thing? Since the effect was to make him look like a monster, it seems more likely that his opponents ordered the killings of so many innocents in order to make Thaksin look bad so they could get rid of him. Isn't this a plausible possibility?

[dumbnewbie]

May be this is a Thai thing and not just Thaksin??

This is a quote from Amnesty International UK

In February 2008 Prime Minister Sundaravej publicly stated that 'When the crackdown [on drugs] is underway, killings will take place ... extrajudicial killings do occur'.

Source:

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=17678

Ah hah! So if Amnesty International is anything to go by, this would seem to substantiate my theory of rival political factions being aligned with rival drug distribution networks, and using political power to try to exterminate the other side's network. Make sense?

[dumbnewbie]

Oh, wait - I just Googled Sundaravej and learned that he was aligned with Thaksin.

Is there any evidence that the other faction (the yellows) also practice extrajudicial killings of drug dealers? If not, maybe my theory is wrong.

[dumbnewbie]

If he was to return then he could face other charges against him. And if his conviction was for a 'piddling technicality', then why did he try to hide it by having his wife sign false documents? He knew himself that what he did was against the law and tried to cover it up.

That those people during the drug war where not allowed the same basic right is a fact that not even Thaksin himself has tried to deny. Instead he and his supporters try to justify it by stating that drug dealers are evil etc etc. Major international organisations know what happened and condemn it.

Sure he has not been tried for that and is technically still "innocent" of the crime. The difference being though that what happens on this forum will not have him put in prison, or even killed without him having a chance to prove his innocence.

Allow me to make an analogy. Bill Clinton was convicted of a piddling technicality - that of accepting a blow job from an employee. He tried to hide it by lying about it. He tried to cover it up, and I don't even think what he did was against the law. A lot of people in Serbia also died on his watch; some would even call it a "genocide". None of those people were given a trial before being gunned down or bombed.

So do you hate Clinton too? Do you want him to go to jail? It's a good analogy, isn't it?

[Ulysses G.]

If the police were told to kill drug dealers and they purposely killed innocents instead, they are responsible, not Thaksin. There are plenty of real drug dealers out there and the police know exactly who they are.

Someone suggested that his War on Drugs was a "political ploy", but I remember speed freaks taking hostages up to the top of Thapae Gate on a regular basis and holding knives to their throats while news crews filmed the whole thing. “Ya Baa” was way out of control. That has stopped completely since Mr. Thaksin's campaign.

[endure]

Ex-pm, now disgraced fugitive Thaksin is facing prison time back in Thailand. However, he has not faced trial for all the charges against him. If YOU could decide, how many years in prison, if any, do you think he deserves?

Thaksin Shinawatra deserves whatever sentence a legally constituted Thai court passes on him for crimes that he's found guilty of by that court. He certainly doesn't deserve any sentence that non-Thai citizens think he ought to serve. If you want to express opinions about political leaders perhaps you ought to:

A: Move to a country where you have a vote

B: Establish citizenship in Thailand so you can vote there

[wolfmanjack]

Have to say i am very surprised by the results so far as TV is a renown Thaksin bashing forum.

Just shows that those who constantly push the point that TV is anti-Thaksin or a forum for bashing Thaksin are wrong again.

The VAST MAJORITY want jail time and the VAST MAJORITY of those want MAJOR JAIL TIME.

Actually it would be more accurate to say the vast majority think he deserves jail time. Some of the voters may not want him to go to jail because of the additional problems it may cause in thailand. I for one voted that he deserves massive amounts of jail time but i am not convinced that it would be good for the country. I already see the violent protests that have taken place and can imagine what would happen if he was actually put in prison. I think there would be a good chance of a lot of blood in the streets.

[wolfmanjack]

Ex-pm, now disgraced fugitive Thaksin is facing prison time back in Thailand. However, he has not faced trial for all the charges against him. If YOU could decide, how many years in prison, if any, do you think he deserves?

Thaksin Shinawatra deserves whatever sentence a legally constituted Thai court passes on him for crimes that he's found guilty of by that court. He certainly doesn't deserve any sentence that non-Thai citizens think he ought to serve. If you want to express opinions about political leaders perhaps you ought to:

A: Move to a country where you have a vote

B: Establish citizenship in Thailand so you can vote there

many of us pay taxes in thailand , have a thai wife and thai children. I think that gives us the right to an opinion on thai politics and the direction the country is taking.

[wolfmanjack]

If the police were told to kill drug dealers and they purposely killed innocents instead, they are responsible, not Thaksin. There are plenty of real drug dealers out there and the police know exactly who they are.

Someone suggested that his War on Drugs was a "political ploy", but I remember speed freaks taking hostages up to the top of Thapae Gate on a regular basis and holding knives to their throats while news crews filmed the whole thing. “Ya Baa” was way out of control. That has stopped completely since Mr. Thaksin's campaign.

You are right that the police are responsible but i would say also not instead. When people started getting killed instead of arrested he should have started investigations instead going along with it.

I agree that there was too much Ya Baa going around and the problem in my wife's village seems to have disappeared. That is a good thing but i still can not condone the killing of innocent people. The point is that thaksin could have made it clear that the policy was to arrest drug dealers and that the slaughter should stop.