My Gf Wants A Salary!

[OxfordWill]

I personally doubt the gf used the word "salary" understanding exactly what it meant. Maybe she did. Maybe she didnt. The statistical overwhelming probability however is that she is a normal thai girl trying to see if her boyfriend is capable of displaying generosity. Does her boyfriend understand the fundamental importance of such? To me, his OP suggests not, and I think the volume of replies saying "run, shes bad, forget her, dont be an idiot..etc" are not going to help him get closer to understanding but further from it.

[Geekfreaklover]

I tend to err on the side of showing benefit of the doubt to the Thai girl in these situations. Of course its impossible as only the OP knows the individuals involved, and maybe if we also knew them, we would be in stronger positions to advise. But given a "hypothetical" situation in which an "average" thai girl and an "average" western man have this scenario, on "average" we would be able to assume certain things about the girl and the guy, which in my opinion lead me to the general advice that the girl is not "gold digging" (infact this concept doesnt really exist in Thailand, not in the way we mean it- it exists in different ways, mainly only two which I have come across, which I wont go on about here are not relevant) but rather bringing up the subject of money in a shy way in order to give her boyfriend the opportunity to demonstrate the most important (arguably, ok, definitely top 3) quality of "generosity". In such a hypothetical situation, a Thai man in the same situation would most likely jump at the chance to, if he could afford it, support his girlfriend with a monthly stippend. Western and Thai culture, on this particular issue are almost exactly opposite. Most people I grew up with in England were taught that money and love do not mix well, but the exact opposite is true in Thai culture. Hearing, believing and finally *understanding* this, is probably the most important part of successful relationships between western and thai lovers. Of course its not enough to just think ok, if I love I must provide, one must also learn the whys and wherefores- the underlying cultural concepts which drive this reality- but its a good enough start to let go of the western ideal that money somehow pollutes "true love". Try to see it rather as a way to show your love- money merely being the most powerful vehicle.

Of course it could be that your girlfriend is a bad egg and will take you for a wild run while disrespecting you all the time, but you havent suggested anything to indicate she is within that minority group of women in this country.

/waffle

Thats all good and dandy Will, but the questions leaps out to me. Why has my girlfriend and many of my firends girlfriends been paying their fair share - rent - food - etc.

Am I the only person in Thailand who is being supported finacially by Thai women?

Your suggestion that all men must pay to have a Thai parner, whilst perhaps true in your own expereince, it is not the way things work here. It's simply bullshit that newbies lap up with pleasure.

Edited August 9, 2009 by Geekfreaklover

[OxfordWill]

As I said Im talking in averages, probability, etc. You (and I, as it goes) have had experiences which are "outside" the probability. Good for us! But given the limited information the OP provides, advising him based on the exception rather than the rule, seems illogical.

[TopDogger]

I personally doubt the gf used the word "salary" understanding exactly what it meant. Maybe she did. Maybe she didnt. The statistical overwhelming probability however is that she is a normal thai girl trying to see if her boyfriend is capable of displaying generosity. Does her boyfriend understand the fundamental importance of such? To me, his OP suggests not, and I think the volume of replies saying "run, shes bad, forget her, dont be an idiot..etc" are not going to help him get closer to understanding but further from it.

I don't want to get into an argument with ya, as u seem like a resonable guy Will...

30k++ is Greed tho, simple as that... She's actually referenced whores getting that amount in her not so "subtle" little request.... If you give into these demands now, you will regret it in the long run if your planning on staying with her long term. The sooner you find out her true intentions the better..

[Geekfreaklover]

As I said Im talking in averages, probability, etc. You (and I, as it goes) have had experiences which are "outside" the probability. Good for us! But given the limited information the OP provides, advising him based on the exception rather than the rule, seems illogical.

Thats true., but it is wise to let the OP know that it is NOT a cultural thing to pay a girlfriend a wage. It is not a Thai cultural norm.

Ask any Isaan farmer or Bangkokian banker.

[OxfordWill]

TopDogger is right to urge caution. And 30k is alot of money. However I remain always wanting, willing, these situations to be about good people trying to do the right thing. My reasoning is only that, if we are wrong that he has a bad egg, we stand to ruin his chance at a happy relationship (assuming he takes on board the negative replies). However if I am wrong, the biggest risk is that he looks further into Thai culture to try and understand his girlfriend. So, my option seems to have less damaging power. Then again, I could be overthinking our importance to any of this, but the guy did come to us for advice...

Geekfreak- It is normal for a Thai man earning good money, who has honourable intentions to eventually possibly marry his girlfriend of "many years", who herself does not earn much at all, to want to be financially supporting her. Further, it is normal for him to be supporting, at least in part, her parents, if they are already engaged. The point which I think you want to make is that in a thai on thai relationship this kind of problem would not come up- because the Thai man would have been providing in a cumulative way so as the talk of "salary" to never have come into either persons mind in the first place. It goes without saying that different situations where the girl has a good job or earns her own good salary, etc etc, things wouldnt be like this, although I have actually come across that too- where the girl earns good money and keeps it all, and the thai guy is happy to pay most of her bills and let her keep her own savings. It gives him self esteem to be able to. And Ive come across, as have you, situations where the girl supports the guy. But none of these are as ubiquitous as the man who earns alot more, supporting the girl he loves, who earns alot less.

Edited August 9, 2009 by OxfordWill

[TopDogger]

Thats all good and dandy Will, but the questions leaps out to me. Why has my girlfriend and many of my firends girlfriends been paying their fair share - rent - food - etc.

Am I the only person in Thailand who is being supported finacially by Thai women?

Your suggestion that all men must pay to have a Thai parner, whilst perhaps true in your own expereince, it is not the way things work here. It's simply bullshit that newbies lap up with pleasure.

I've heard about guys earning 100k++ to their GF's 30k and making the gf pay half a 2k restaurant bill, etc.. It's a little tight IMO If your both happy with that, why not tho, at least you know where u stand..

Edited August 9, 2009 by TopDogger

[Geekfreaklover]

TopDogger is right to urge caution. And 30k is alot of money. However I remain always wanting, willing, these situations to be about good people trying to do the right thing. My reasoning is only that, if we are wrong that he has a bad egg, we stand to ruin his chance at a happy relationship (assuming he takes on board the negative replies). However if I am wrong, the biggest risk is that he looks further into Thai culture to try and understand his girlfriend. So, my option seems to have less damaging power. Then again, I could be overthinking our importance to any of this, but the guy did come to us for advice...

Will. Look at it. I have always advised foreingers coming to Thailand to not do anything that they would not do in their own country.

Would you meet a girl in Oxford and offer to give her triple the national salery - say three thosand pounds a month to be your girlfriend. 3# grand a month just to be with you. She should want to be with you without the mention of money. If she is asking for money then she is a prostitute. Dress it up with cultural clothing all you like. The woman is still a whore.

Amen.

GFL.

[473geo]

Geek..........if every woman who seeks financial security from a potential partner is to be classed as 'a whore'

Then in your view the world must be full of them........this has been going on for centuries........and surely more so before women were going out and earning a 'fair wage'.........in case you had not noticed this train of fair wage/educated working women thinking has not quite been substanciated in many countries where poorly educated womem are left to their own devices!!

So a woman who seeks financial security in a potential partner is...........

Greedy...................or using common sense?

[OxfordWill]

Thats how I felt you feel- i.e. if you wouldnt do it at home, dont do it here. But doesnt that ignore the vast cultural differences in play?

I agree with you that on some things, your advice is sound. Particularly business. Romantic relationships are so different, though.

I do definitely disagree with you on the whore point. You seem very attached to the idea that money and love must not mix. "True love" can only be proven by the absence of financial trnasactions. This is so very western. Im not saying its wrong, or right. Im just saying that Thais, for the most part, dont think in that way. Even if all your gfs have done, even if most of mine have done, it doesnt go for the majority and more importantly doesnt go for the cultural concepts upon which this culture exists. Im yet to read an ethnography or cultural assessment of Thailand which says otherwise and it doesnt fit with my personal experience either.

Really, I think youre trying to argue the normative point- how things ought to be, or should be, rather than how they actually are.Youre passing judgement on culture, and in doing so youre actually accepting my point that this is how things are. But we're talking normatively, I actually agree with you. But then, Im a westerner.

Simple litmus test- ask your Thai male buddies- "if your gf wants you to help support her financially, when she cannot afford to herself, is she therefore a whore?" See what they say! You already know, though, that they wouldnt agree.

[vreemd13]

..... Most people ..... were taught that money and love do not mix well, but the exact opposite is true in Thai culture. .... but its a good enough start to let go of the western ideal that money somehow pollutes "true love". Try to see it rather as a way to show your love- money merely being the most powerful vehicle.

Are you suggesting western should change their values for a 180' opposite thought? And just disregards their own culture thoughts and 100% accept other values? Ouch, relationship is 50/50 understanding. It is about accepting both ways.

[OxfordWill]

No, although some people do that. Like you say - 50/50 is ideal. Maybe somewhere there is a Thai forum where his girlfriend is getting advice on western culture from other thais. Maybe her post would be "Ive met this great guy and he seems to really like me but he knows Im not as rich as him and I struggle each month to pay my bills, but he has never offered to help even after so many years of our being together. Does it mean he doesnt really like me and will just dump me when he is bored?" Then other Thais who have western partners will be teaching her about western values such as independence, not mixing love with money, etc etc.. and then a bunch of Thai who dont really get western culture will all be "oh leave him what a bad guy everyone knows if you love a girl and been with her for so many years you would already be offering to help her if she has financial issues.. so obviously that guy is just looking for free sex and a great time, find a new guy...".. or something.

Edited August 9, 2009 by OxfordWill

[Geekfreaklover]

Thats how I felt you feel- i.e. if you wouldnt do it at home, dont do it here. But doesnt that ignore the vast cultural differences in play?

I agree with you that on some things, your advice is sound. Particularly business. Romantic relationships are so different, though.

I do definitely disagree with you on the whore point. You seem very attached to the idea that money and love must not mix. "True love" can only be proven by the absence of financial trnasactions. This is so very western. Im not saying its wrong, or right. Im just saying that Thais, for the most part, dont think in that way. Even if all your gfs have done, even if most of mine have done, it doesnt go for the majority and more importantly doesnt go for the cultural concepts upon which this culture exists. Im yet to read an ethnography or cultural assessment of Thailand which says otherwise and it doesnt fit with my personal experience either.

Really, I think youre trying to argue the normative point- how things ought to be, or should be, rather than how they actually are.Youre passing judgement on culture, and in doing so youre actually accepting my point that this is how things are. But we're talking normatively, I actually agree with you. But then, Im a westerner.

Simple litmus test- ask your Thai male buddies- "if your gf wants you to help support her financially, when she cannot afford to herself, is she therefore a whore?" See what they say! You already know, though, that they wouldnt agree.

Will, I've met you. you are bigger than me and could probably beat me up in a heart-beat.

So I retreat and will try to explain myself in the following less aggresive way.

If you meet a woman from any country at any time and you like each other the romantic bliss could be somewhat spoiled by the mention of money. It's a passion killer. Call me an old fashioned romantic, but I would never feel comfortable with the prospect of paying a woman 30k a month to be my girlfriend.

In any country.

It's up to the OP, it is his life. If he wants to pay her fine (pun intended). I wait to see his 'i've been ripped off by a Thai girl' sob sorry on this here forum in a couple of years time.

[britmaveric]

Odd - most of the people I know who have TGF do not pay a salary. However they do help time to time when stuff comes up. Come on Will you know as well as I do - you don't need to pay your thai gf a salary to show that you love her. At the end of the day she has her own job and makes her own dosh if she was dating a thai lad this discussion would be moot. The common consensus is well your a farang and you can pay more. What kind of logic is this? Thai lads don't have to put up with this, so why should a farang. A proper lady would never expect this and believe it or not you do not need to pay a salary to keep a gf in thailand. The key is to find the right lady and well I think the OP might not have found the one based on what he is experiencing. Now if you are married - I believe in equal access to finances. (least that was the way I was raised - what is mine is yours ect)

Edited August 9, 2009 by britmaveric

[473geo]

Thats how I felt you feel- i.e. if you wouldnt do it at home, dont do it here. But doesnt that ignore the vast cultural differences in play?

I agree with you that on some things, your advice is sound. Particularly business. Romantic relationships are so different, though.

I do definitely disagree with you on the whore point. You seem very attached to the idea that money and love must not mix. "True love" can only be proven by the absence of financial trnasactions. This is so very western. Im not saying its wrong, or right. Im just saying that Thais, for the most part, dont think in that way. Even if all your gfs have done, even if most of mine have done, it doesnt go for the majority and more importantly doesnt go for the cultural concepts upon which this culture exists. Im yet to read an ethnography or cultural assessment of Thailand which says otherwise and it doesnt fit with my personal experience either.

Really, I think youre trying to argue the normative point- how things ought to be, or should be, rather than how they actually are.Youre passing judgement on culture, and in doing so youre actually accepting my point that this is how things are. But we're talking normatively, I actually agree with you. But then, Im a westerner.

Simple litmus test- ask your Thai male buddies- "if your gf wants you to help support her financially, when she cannot afford to herself, is she therefore a whore?" See what they say! You already know, though, that they wouldnt agree.

Will, I've met you. you are bigger than me and could probably beat me up in a heart-beat.

So I retreat and will try to explain myself in the following less aggresive way.

If you meet a woman from any country at any time and you like each other the romantic bliss could be somewhat spoiled by the mention of money. It's a passion killer. Call me an old fashioned romantic, but I would never feel comfortable with the prospect of paying a woman 30k a month to be my girlfriend.

In any country.

It's up to the OP, it is his life. If he wants to pay her fine (pun intended). I wait to see his 'i've been ripped off by a Thai girl' sob sorry on this here forum in a couple of years time.

But he will only be ripped off if he pays but cannot really afford to sustain it........if the relationship sours even if he keeps up the 'salary' well it would have surely gone that way anyway...yes?

[OxfordWill]

I totally get your point, and I personally agree. I just dont think Thais would, on the whole. Thais dont see that money kills passion/love infact most of them see it as a way to increase love and passion. A vehicle to demonstrate their generosity and desire to support. A way to foster greng-jai in their partner. A way to gain self esteem and pride. The same way we gain self esteem from knowing we never paid a girl to be our gf (at least, thats how WE see it). Theres nothing wrong with us who have a problem with this, Im only saying Thai men (on the whole) dont.

Apologise if I come across hostile- Im chilled and discussing this. But often people say I come across as if Im in a heated argument, which in my mind, we are not. Maybe we'll have a proper argument about it over a pint sometime

[britmaveric]

Will - you are never hostile mate!! You know sometimes words typed take on an entire unintended meaning. Just curious have you ever given any tgf of yours a salary?

[vreemd13]

Next sounds familiar to me.

No, although some people do that ..... 50/50 is ideal...... not mixing love with money, etc etc.. and then a bunch of Thai who dont really get western culture will all be "oh leave him what a bad guy everyone knows if you love a girl and been with her for so many years you would already be offering to help her if she has financial issues.. so obviously that guy is just looking for free sex and a great time, find a new guy...".. or something.

But, IMO still very true values everywhere: "You can't buy love" with a salary.

[OxfordWill]

Well of the 4 "serious" thai girlfriends Ive ever had, 2 were rich and 2 were poor. The rich ones pretty much looked after me. The first poor one, I didnt help at all, which I regret greatly. Back then I saw things with a 100% western view and refused to accept any other perspective. I ended up pushing away a wonderful lady who simply tried her best and put up with my complete lack of respect for her culture. Im a little wiser since then and the second, was well off when we met and used to spend a great deal of money on us, I admit, more than I did. But since then she has had financial problems, and I have financially supported her for periods of time. Not a salary, mind you, just helping with bills when I can. I also dont think this OPs girlfriend wants a salary- just that this is his interpretation of her shy request for financial help on a regular basis. Salary is such a loaded term.

For me personally, in a bizarre twist of cultures, I actually gain self esteem from being able to provide financial support for my girlfriend when needed. Not so long ago I would have been disgusted with myself for even considering it. I think Ive been in Thailand too long!

Edited August 9, 2009 by OxfordWill

[britmaveric]

^Well good on you mate - you helped when it was needed. This is normal, if you are in a serious relationship. But arbitrarily handing out a set amount every month based on what a bar girl makes well is simply another matter. I've helped our Ms Brit when needed, but I must admit she takes great pride in being self sufficient. Who knows maybe I am lucky, but I've found most people with TGF to be of a similar vein.

[Geekfreaklover]

I totally get your point, and I personally agree. I just dont think Thais would, on the whole. Thais dont see that money kills passion/love infact most of them see it as a way to increase love and passion. A vehicle to demonstrate their generosity and desire to support. A way to foster greng-jai in their partner. A way to gain self esteem and pride. The same way we gain self esteem from knowing we never paid a girl to be our gf (at least, thats how WE see it). Theres nothing wrong with us who have a problem with this, Im only saying Thai men (on the whole) dont.

Apologise if I come across hostile- Im chilled and discussing this. But often people say I come across as if Im in a heated argument, which in my mind, we are not. Maybe we'll have a proper argument about it over a pint sometime

It's not a heated argument, and I think that you are right in what you are typing. Yeah, sure, we will discuss over a pint sometime at the Crossbar. It's an interesting topic. Love and money are sometimes the same thing - but it works both ways - my gf recently paid me 30k to take a language course in Bangkok. Did I love her more for it? Not really. But it was a nice gesture. Thanks.

I don't care too much for money, because money can't buy you love.

(Credit Sir Paul)

[JasonM]

Well of the 4 "serious" thai girlfriends Ive ever had, 2 were rich and 2 were poor. The rich ones pretty much looked after me. The first poor one, I didnt help at all, which I regret greatly. Back then I saw things with a 100% western view and refused to accept any other perspective. I ended up pushing away a wonderful lady who simply tried her best and put up with my complete lack of respect for her culture. Im a little wiser since then and the second, was well off when we met and used to spend a great deal of money on us, I admit, more than I did. But since then she has had financial problems, and I have financially supported her for periods of time. Not a salary, mind you, just helping with bills when I can. I also dont think this OPs girlfriend wants a salary- just that this is his interpretation of her shy request for financial help on a regular basis. Salary is such a loaded term.

For me personally, in a bizarre twist of cultures, I actually gain self esteem from being able to provide financial support for my girlfriend when needed. Not so long ago I would have been disgusted with myself for even considering it. I think Ive been in Thailand too long!

What you write is very important, most western people will automaticly think thai girls are taking advantage of you for doing so.

But what many fail to understand is that thai girls are extremely feminime and want to take care of you. But at the same time they want a real man that can take care of them, one who can provide for them. Thats whats different with a thai than a western woman.

I can agree that if she is asking for money all the time for no reasons then obviously something is going on. But to help with bills is something that should be accepted. I mean you are in a relationship with the girl, its normal to help each other out

[OxfordWill]

Brit- Well, it could be that your partner made the extr effort to understand our culture, and adapt her behaviour, expectations and so on accordingly. My first Thai girlfriend was like this, she did all that without fanfare of rubbing it in my face to show off her extra effort. Perfect wife material- shame I was only 19 at the time, if Im lucky ill meet her again at 30-something!

JasonM- exactly. And moreso- Thais work in an interconnectedness which we westerners do not understand without some effort to study it. My previous resistance to make a show of generosity for the family of my first non-rich thai girlfriend, and repeated resistance to anything I saw as "paying for her company" led her to massive loss of face, when all she was trying to do was give me opportunities to gain respect from other Thais, such as her family. I didnt get this at the time, and Ive never been able to apologise for behaviour which was, in Thai terms, actually very rude and disrespectful. But I was fresh to the country and thought I knew it all. Now I am familiar with the place, but I still think I know it all. Ah well.. half way there..

Edited August 9, 2009 by OxfordWill

[vreemd13]

.... I actually gain self esteem from being able to provide financial support for my girlfriend when needed. ...... I think Ive been in Thailand too long!

Key words to gain your esteem: "WHEN NEEDED", which isn't a fixed monthly salary.

BTW:

Your quote sounds familiar to me: "farang want free sex"

and I will add: "I am looking for better farang"

(both quotations told by thai)

[Geekfreaklover]

Well, it could be that your partner made the extr effort to understand our culture, and adapt her behaviour, expectations and so on accordingly. My first Thai girlfriend was like this, she did all that without fanfare of rubbing it in my face to show off her extra effort. Perfect wife material- shame I was only 19 at the time, if Im lucky ill meet her again at 30-something!

Nice story.

Now for something different:

The thousands of girls that work in the gentlemans entertainment areas of Bangkok, the majority of which support their Thai motorcycle taxi boyfriends with cash taken from their latest clients. Is the thai boyfriend taking care of her financially?. Nope. She loves him and is working to keep him in whiskey and gasoline.

She is peddling her arse to support him.

Thats Thai culture, mate. Right there. The woman doing a terrible job to support her lazy boyfriend (brother) who isn't lifiting a finger to pay the bills.

The eldest daughter is expected to provide for the family in Thai culture. If she finds an ignorant Farang great, if not she has to settle with a local who she can have a loving realtionship with. Not a fiscal reationship, a loving one.

Edited August 9, 2009 by Geekfreaklover

[OxfordWill]

Couple of small corrections GFL if youll forgive me:

Firstly while you describe the situation with alot of working girls accurately, this is still less than between 0.15% - 2% of the overall population (scope of thai government to NGO western assessment) and secondly, re eldest daughters, thats only true of Esarn families and not all of them either. Dont forget that the majority of thai women do not sell their bodies (just their minds, like the rest of us!).

Edited August 9, 2009 by OxfordWill

[RAZZELL]

I totally get your point, and I personally agree. I just dont think Thais would, on the whole. Thais dont see that money kills passion/love infact most of them see it as a way to increase love and passion. A vehicle to demonstrate their generosity and desire to support. A way to foster greng-jai in their partner. A way to gain self esteem and pride. The same way we gain self esteem from knowing we never paid a girl to be our gf (at least, thats how WE see it). Theres nothing wrong with us who have a problem with this, Im only saying Thai men (on the whole) dont.

Apologise if I come across hostile- Im chilled and discussing this. But often people say I come across as if Im in a heated argument, which in my mind, we are not. Maybe we'll have a proper argument about it over a pint sometime

It's not a heated argument, and I think that you are right in what you are typing. Yeah, sure, we will discuss over a pint sometime at the Crossbar. It's an interesting topic. Love and money are sometimes the same thing - but it works both ways - my gf recently paid me 30k to take a language course in Bangkok. Did I love her more for it? Not really. But it was a nice gesture. Thanks.

I don't care too much for money, because money can't buy you love.

(Credit Sir Paul)

I've read the very entertaining discussion between GFL and Will and I tend to side with Will.

By your definition GFL are you a whore too by taking money from a woman who's richer than you?

Or just a "gigolo"? Or is it ok if "it's a gesture"? If "money can't buy you love" - What's your gf doing then? Huh? :D

Also, if you transposed the word "salary" to "allowance" how would that sound?

My Dad basically gave all of his money for 40-odd years of his working life to my Mum to pays the bills etc..Or are you calling her a whore too?

In Asia, money, face and love are all intertwined - like ALL relationships money has some part to play.

Finally, I think the OP has simply no understanding of what his gf wanted or expected in their relationship.

RAZZ

Edited August 9, 2009 by RAZZELL

[britmaveric]

^Not in most relationships!!!

[JasonM]

Brit- Well, it could be that your partner made the extr effort to understand our culture, and adapt her behaviour, expectations and so on accordingly. My first Thai girlfriend was like this, she did all that without fanfare of rubbing it in my face to show off her extra effort. Perfect wife material- shame I was only 19 at the time, if Im lucky ill meet her again at 30-something!

JasonM- exactly. And moreso- Thais work in an interconnectedness which we westerners do not understand without some effort to study it. My previous resistance to make a show of generosity for the family of my first non-rich thai girlfriend, and repeated resistance to anything I saw as "paying for her company" led her to massive loss of face, when all she was trying to do was give me opportunities to gain respect from other Thais, such as her family. I didnt get this at the time, and Ive never been able to apologise for behaviour which was, in Thai terms, actually very rude and disrespectful. But I was fresh to the country and thought I knew it all. Now I am familiar with the place, but I still think I know it all. Ah well.. half way there..

If its not too private, can you write what happened to your relationship? She broke up with you or did she suddenly become unavailable and impossible to contact?

[RAZZELL]

^Not in most relationships!!!

Are you telling me that looks, personality, money, finances, security "what you can offer" as a package have no bearing on any relationship?

If so I think you've read too much Barbara Cartland!

RAZZ