Murders, Higher Wp Fees, Ridiculous Steps To Get Things Done

[Somtamnication]

It is their country and they can do as they please.

But there is a limit to the xenophobia and bigoted attitudes that are in the press (latest one of the 90% ownership of beach land is by the bad farangs) that I am willing to accept as just life in Thailand.

The murders in Ranong, CM and other areas where if it weren't for the families of the victims, nothing would have been done.

I doubt the association can do anything about the corruption, but if the Labour Office decides to increase the wp to 10,000, an association can speak loads to this and other issues affecting us.

Unfair immigration practices, almost an impossibility to attain Thai citizenship, ridiculous hoops to jump to get anything done.

Care to add other issues than an association can help with?

[Moonrakers]

If the average Thai struggles to get a fair go here, what makes you think that we have a chance?

[jasreeve17]

It's a nice idea in theory.

Alas, Thailand hasn't yet developed such institutions well enough to support their own citizens. This is a very nationalistic country, minority groups seeking... well anything... are not well treated. It's almost certainly illegal too (or they'd find a law somewhere to make it illegal).

[samran]

I reckon there is a three year cycle here for TV for these initatives.

"Lets create an expat association". "Lets show them locals what we are made of".

A few meetings are organised at the local BBQ or Burbon bar, or if we are getting classy, the Subway sandwich shop at Nana. The meeting is organised, and a few stragglers turn up. The initiator of the 'association' then drags along the only Thai he knows that is somehow associated with government.

A few things usually happen after that:

a) After a while, the association organiser figures out that while there are plenty of desktop hero's prepared to 'show them silly locals a thing or two' on an anonymous web board, very few turn up to their meetings in real life

even fewer are willing to part with their pension payments to get this initiative off the ground

c) The 'connected' Thai official (who turns up to the meeting bemused, if not a little confused) is really just some low ranked civil servant who never made it past the C1 rank, despite almost being close to retirment age. Despite initial impressions that this guy is connected, the association soon finds out that he is simply a desk jocky, awaiting his 8000 per month pension, and the closest he ever came to real power was when he cleaned the toilets down in preparation for a ministerial visit to his offices back in 1973. And no, his boss, who has a C4 ranking, can't get him an interview with the minister, given that he is turning up to work inebriated at 2pm most days. He does know a couple of guys who can get him a 2000 baht a month council flat for you though, and he's in with the local somtam and chicken shop owner...if you are ever hungy.

d) Organiser of said association soon wistfully looks over to all the tall office towers in BKK and realises that the foot in the door lies somewhere up in those tower blocks. Unfortunately his GF Nok from Mukdahan doesn't know any hi-so people so she is no help (though she knows a couple of girls who have done 'well' by marrying a couple of English lads from Ipswich. Aparently their council flats are nice).

e) After 3 meetings the 'expats association of Thailand' is wound up, to be resurected in 3 years time by another go-getter who has read a few too many of George's tabloid-ish headlines.

Edited September 2, 2009 by samran

[Moonrakers]

I think that Ralph Wiggum just summed it up nicely.

[JUDAS]

Call it intuition Samram, but I reckon you think it's a bit of a non starter

[mahtin]

a couple of girls who have done 'well' by marrying a couple of English lads from Ipswich. Aparently their council flats are nice).

Close.

I used to live on the Stour estuary, south side (not to mention the county famous for London overspill )

[mrtoad]

Why is there not a "waste of time" option on the poll?

[samran]

Call it intuition Samram, but I reckon you think it's a bit of a non starter

only slightly......

[doggie888888]

samran, u r such a cynic...and a thoroughly entertaining one at that

[Somtamnication]

The waste of time option is not there as the other negative answers speak for themselves.

The big issue here is face. It is the only thing that works with Thais and their officials. Take the case of the Burmese boy with the origami plane. With enough media behind the association's back, things get done and rather quickly.

If an association speaks for 10 farangs, it will not go anywhere. But if, for the sake of an argument, the association represents 100,000 expats, that is a very big difference and it will be heard.

As it is now, do you all honestly think that we are thought of in a positive sense by the locals and treated as respected members of their community?

With the few bad apples in the basket, we get feathered and tarred. The association could help putting out a positive picture of the rest of us, who are here because we ran away from the rat race .

Yes, this issue has come up before. Clearly no one has forgotten about it, at least not by the old timers on the board. So there is relevance to its existence.

[Jingthing]

I thought thaivisa.com was the expat association!

Have I been misinformed?

[samran]

The waste of time option is not there as the other negative answers speak for themselves.

The big issue here is face. It is the only thing that works with Thais and their officials. Take the case of the Burmese boy with the origami plane. With enough media behind the association's back, things get done and rather quickly.

If an association speaks for 10 farangs, it will not go anywhere. But if, for the sake of an argument, the association represents 100,000 expats, that is a very big difference and it will be heard.

As it is now, do you all honestly think that we are thought of in a positive sense by the locals and treated as respected members of their community?

With the few bad apples in the basket, we get feathered and tarred. The association could help putting out a positive picture of the rest of us, who are here because we ran away from the rat race .

Yes, this issue has come up before. Clearly no one has forgotten about it, at least not by the old timers on the board. So there is relevance to its existence.

Bon chance. You'll have a better chance herding cats than a bunch of farangs in Thailand.

[Heng]

I think sticking to debates regarding "real" Mexican food would be far more productive.

[mrtoad]

The waste of time option is not there as the other negative answers speak for themselves.

The big issue here is face. It is the only thing that works with Thais and their officials. Take the case of the Burmese boy with the origami plane. With enough media behind the association's back, things get done and rather quickly.

If an association speaks for 10 farangs, it will not go anywhere. But if, for the sake of an argument, the association represents 100,000 expats, that is a very big difference and it will be heard.

As it is now, do you all honestly think that we are thought of in a positive sense by the locals and treated as respected members of their community?

With the few bad apples in the basket, we get feathered and tarred. The association could help putting out a positive picture of the rest of us, who are here because we ran away from the rat race .

Yes, this issue has come up before. Clearly no one has forgotten about it, at least not by the old timers on the board. So there is relevance to its existence.

It's not that it isn't a bad idea, it's just the pure practicalities of it, and of course who would actually be representing expats? I just don't think it will work, and to be honest it will just be a weekly or monthly meet of people who think they are victims.

[Moonrakers]

Hands up anybody who would be a willing volunteer to represent a foreign body opposing the Thai authorities and establishment(s).....

Anybody....

Just step forward now....

Anybody....

Anybody....

........

Edited September 2, 2009 by Moonrakers

[Carib]

By all means, let`s do things the western way. We sure set an example, now don`t we ??

[Theyreallrubbish]

There are already these bodies who lobby on behalf of western owned businesses.

There are several round tables and trade associations. They have lots of members and meet in swanky hotels and even have government ministers as members and speakers.

But they're not representing hair salon or restaurant owners. They're representing multimillion dollar businesses.

If you're not part of that no-one will listen to you here.

And frankly, another few thousand on a work permit fee isn't something a country managing director with expats on $200k a year is going to be raising over lunch with the Minister of Commerce.

Unless you can gather thousands and thousands of members who will all contribute funds so they can afford to have representation in the big leagues, you're going to have no more influence than a few dozen poor people of Thai nationality would have

[MrHammer]

It's a bad idea. If an expat or 'farang' association were made, then all of us would be associated with that group and who would want that.

Forget this idea of 'rights'. We are guests here and I think the Thais are very wise to not let 'international' western capital ruin their country.

Thailand is one of the easiest countries in the world to live in. If you can't handle Thailand, better you return home and ask to get plugged into the matrix again.

[justanothercybertosser]

There actually are different associations that represent foreigner's interests, such as the different chambers of commerce, or the FCCT.

In this spirit - you people have just to found your own associations, such as "moaners united", the "old farts with nubile wives", or the "early morning drunk in an Isaarn village club".

[guava]

There are such organisations and lobby groups in Thailand and they include various networking and business groups, chambers of commerce, private "old boys" clubs, sports clubs, foreign correspondents clubs, industry specific business organisations, etc, etc - and they all do their best (often successfully) at addressing the issues that matter most to them. Some of these groups have very influential reach into the relevant bodies within and outside of Thailand - and their actions have likely led to changes in policy and real positive change over the years, and respect has been gained not lost.

And clearly those who have succeeded in Thailand often ignored the wise old cynics and the "you're a guest, act like it" sheep. My country grants basic human rights and a whole whole lot more to people who weren't born there, whether they are tourists, expats, immigrants or investors. Multiculturalism bought many more benefits than disadvantages. Foreign investment saved our hides. Open trade made us wealthy. Sure the foreign devils may ruffle some feathers in the name of progress, but those who are obsessed with not breaking any eggs aren't going to be making any omelettes.

And for the record - I simply don’t consider myself a guest here, nor do my friends and family. Yes there is a minuscule chance I could be deported for stepping on toes, or whatever it is I’m not supposed to do. Or I could get hit by a meteor. I refuse to let the negligible fear of either of those events happening from stopping me from living an enjoyable, productive, rewarding life. If you lose sleep over those risks – you’d no doubt be acutely aware it’s your loss.

In any case, I'm not losing sleep over it, and I don't believe I'm making things worse for anyone (my fellow expats or the people of Thailand) - short-term, mid-term, and most certainly not long-term. Questioning racism, xenophobia, stupidity, stigmas, stereotypes, shoddy workmanship, unsafe practices, corruption, negligence and unaccountability is bad? Accepting 2nd best or 102nd best is a good thing? Bah. Come back when you grow a pair. Thais have much thicker skin than you give them credit for. A lot of the face saving thing is taking the piss to the n'th degree - and it applies far less to outsiders than some would have you believe - with each new generation ever more so. And that, IMHO, is a VERY good thing. It shows a country growing up.

No-one likes criticism, even valuable constructive criticism - it's not a uniquely Thai thing, or even a uniquely Asian thing. Eventually it all works towards the greater good. I don't look down on Thai people, I don't see them as genetically inferior, naturally stupid, or anything remotely like it - but as a population they have been massively disadvantaged by poverty, oppressive politics, corruption, class barriers, opportunity, and an appalling education system. Anything that helps Thailand recover from it and grow is a huge step in the right direction.

Thailand seems to accept, if not utterly embrace in many cases, all the good that comes from "westernisation" (I don't really believe that's the best word but it'll do). Most Thais acknowledge that many imported goods are often superior, foreign educations are superior, western management practices, engineering and construction companies, train/plane/boat/car/white goods manufacturers etc etc etc are superior - and that if they are to ever be as successful themselves they need to watch, listen, learn, and follow. Furthermore Thailand needs to be part of the global economy as much as any country does. And ultimately Thais themselves are responsible for most of the progress that has been made and will be made, regardless of the relatively minor impact of expats. Let’s not over-estimate our own importance or impact, negative or positive.

The older generations of Thais, especially those in the power seats of commerce and especially politics, are not likely to start presenting bouquets to thank outsiders for the numerous positives, and they’ll continue to throw brickbats at outsiders rather than accept responsibility themselves for the relatively few negatives. Keep a realistic overview with that in mind, and you’ll realise that opinions on foreigners in Thailand may range from those who extend a warm welcome to those who wish we weren’t here at all – but even of those people at the grumpy old end, very few would consider us unnecessary, and absolutely no-one would dispute the need for western/outside expertise, technology, products, trade, etc. And bloody football...

HOWEVER, having said all that, trying to group together a group of expats from a range of nationalities, social/economic/educational backgrounds, languages, locations around Thailand etc, to address all the relevant issues facing expats living in Thailand would be a mammoth task, and as others have suggested, very likely a "herding cats" type of exercise in terms of organisation.

Keep the scope smaller and you may have a chance. To be honest, at least 2 of the 3 issues you listed in your topic heading, are of no great personal significance to me personally - it's not apathy or callousness that makes me say that - it's just that I have enough to focus on already and my own chronic limitations on time. So I'm going to only pick battles that really matter most to me, and even then, only the ones I think can be won.

If you serious believe you have the time and expertise to make a difference, perhaps join a chamber of commerce, social club at your embassy, etc for starters, and see where that takes you. If you have an agenda, chew a few people's ears, gauge people's interest etc. You should be able to work out quickly whether you're flogging a dead horse or not.

Swap business cards with people, keep personal notes, and try to stay in contact with those that you think worthwhile to maintain a relationship with. Turn business relationships into real friendships if they are good people and you have things in common. Try to meet a few journos, other media people, even celebrities - farang or Thai.

Start a blog. Start 10. Keep posting on forums, newspapers..... Be fair, be reasonable, be polite, be compassionate, just don't get too preoccupied with saving face or not embarrassing our (sometimes far less than gracious) hosts. Genuine offense and anger often means you've crossed a line and whether deserved or not, can be counter-productive. I'll avoid doing that when possible, handle it tactfully when it isn't. Embarrassment on the other hand usually signifies that someone is in the wrong and clearly aware of the fact. I’ve seen many a positive outcome result from embarrassing a Thai! Like any other person from any other nationality or race.

Good luck.

http://www.tginfo.com/chamber_list.htm

[guava]

Looks like a few people said the same thing at the same time....

[thaihome]

.... few too many of George's tabloid-ish headlines.

That pretty much sums it up.

TH

[stiggy]

Total waste of time.

Look around the political situation here is still in the air, why would they give a stuff about a group of foreign Walter Mittys telling them what to do!

Dream on.

[toybits]

Why is this beginning to look like China before the Boxer Revolution?

Total waste of time.

Look around the political situation here is still in the air, why would they give a stuff about a group of foreign Walter Mittys telling them what to do!

Dream on.

[quiksilva]

Its a nice idea but if the Joint Foreign Chambers of Commerce have a hard time getting their demands met, what chance do a bunch of loosely associated expats have?

[Beacher]

Apart from likely being ineffective, I would be afraid that Thais might see it as being rather arrogant - like saying, "since you Thais don't seem to know how to do things properly, we'll set up this committee to sort stuff out for you."

I think it might be seen as an "us against them" type of situation and would only widen the gap between foreigners and Thais.

One must remember that saving face is extremely important to Thais, and this wouldn't help in that area.

[JRinger]

There actually are different associations that represent foreigner's interests, such as the different chambers of commerce, or the FCCT.

In this spirit - you people have just to found your own associations, such as "moaners united", the "old farts with nubile wives", or the "early morning drunk in an Isaarn village club".

and/or "Fear & Loathing in LOS"

[jellymeister]

association?????now what did Uncle Groucho say again, I wouldn't want to be a member of any group that would have me as a member.....although I can see some interesting possible acronyms here, such as Farang Association of Retirees in Thailand!

[mrtoad]

association?????now what did Uncle Groucho say again, I wouldn't want to be a member of any group that would have me as a member.....although I can see some interesting possible acronyms here, such as Farang Association of Retirees in Thailand!

Just call it "Victim Support".