Tourist Numbers Drop By Almost One Million

[Thakkar]

Drats! I'd come to see a cat fight.

[Thongkorn]

I think that Thailand is Dangerous, Is all in peoples minds, Yes Thailand is Dangerous, But so is most of the World if you have a problem and a bad attitude, I can only speak for myself, i have been To Thailand A few Times , Some times as long as 5 months, and the shortest 3 months, over the last 4 years. I have been Down in south Thailand and lived in the Jungles with Buddist, Muslims,And Christians, Not once did i feel threatened. I have good Thai people friends who a lot of people Fear and would probly stay clear of. Like Motor bike taxi men. I have been to one of my motor bike mans home meet his family and been out for something to eat with his direct family many times , I have always been treat with Dignity and respect, What i am saying is that if you go To anywhere with a bad attitude, which just Happens to be the Bad attitude capital you will get Problems. Anywhere.I think that Thailand being dangerous reports are taken out of all contex.

Edited October 24, 2009 by Thongkorn

[Mapguy]

The economy is definitely a huge factor. Unfortunately, Thailand is also often perceived as dangerous, or --- as in the case of the airport occupation and general Bangkok disturbances followed by the rabble rousing at the ASEAN conference --- very unsettled and, accordingly, potentially inconvenient. That, according to my acquaintances in the international travel and program businesses, seems mainly to affect group tour reservations as well as other group programs. I know one that took a 70% hit on reservations due to the airport occupation and news stories of the wider unrest in Bangkok. For flexible and experienced travelers and those living here, of course, it is a different story. Life is generally very, very pleasant..

Otherwise, more relevant to Chiang Mai, there are local factors already mentioned above that have an impact, too. How all these factors interact is anyone's guess, really. In any case it is a sad business for business.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I think that Thailand is Dangerous, Is all in peoples minds, Yes Thailand is Dangerous, But so is most of the World if you have a problem and a bad attitude, I can only speak for myself, i have been To Thailand A few Times , Some times as long as 5 months, and the shortest 3 months, over the last 4 years. I have always been treat with Dignity and respect,

And so have I. And so have by far most visitors to Thailand. I think you're mixing up 'Dangerous' with 'A somewhat elevated chance at sustaining a mishap or injury compared to holidaying in Western countries.'

As per the statistic that was dug up earlier in this topic, for every 1 person that experiences a serious incident in Thailand, there are 845 like you and me, who have the time of their lives and come to no harm whatsoever.

'Dangerous' is a very relative, non-quantifiable and subjective term.

If someone asks me if Thailand is dangerous I would say 'no'. If someone asks me if Thailand is as safe as Sweden, all things considered, then my answer is also 'no'. That doesn't change that I'm MUCH happier in Thailand than in most other places in the world.

NB: With the word 'Safety', people tend to think only about things like crime or terrorism. Safety is much more. Safety is having emergency exits that work. Safety is not being able to buy an electrical device with faulty wiring. Safety is having structures in place to check on food storage conditions. It's an endless list of processes, regulations and structures that Thailand is decades away from. It has nothing to do with Thai people being friendly and respectful or not.

Edited October 24, 2009 by WinnieTheKhwai

[Tyke]

I have news for you even Pattaya is down not like CM but its still not taking off.

I was in Pattaya this week and it was bursting compared to earlier in the year when it was almost empty. But don't know how it compares to previous years.

[ChiangMaiFun]

siamamerican

re .... How much does a nice room in Thailand set you back?

fair comment ... im 60 years old and wont stay in anything i think needs cleaning

this is what i call a nice room and it costs me 4000 baht a month plus electric , water , 60 channels for wee tv etc ... my total monthly bill for the past 7 months of living here have never been over 5600 baht ... last months was 5380 baht which i can just about manage to pay ; ) .... a third the price of the same in thing in england ... : (

love thailand .... dave2

ps ... if anyone doesnt think it a nice room worth 4000 baht a month please keep your comments to yourself coz i dont need your opinions : )

enjoy pics !

60 channels for Wee is slightly misleading considering only 8 or so are in English? unless you are Thai fluent? just a thought...

[dave2]

Chiang Mai Fun

re ..... 60 channels for Wee is slightly misleading considering only 8 or so are in English?

are there ? ... now thats interesting coz ive never watched a tv programe in the ten months ive been living here !

computers i do .... tv ... i dont

im like ian forbes , i have afternoon visitors who sometimes like to watch tv after their " work " is finnished or untill they have to go and see someone else ???? and the occasional overnight visitor who might like to watch tv in the morning while im shaving / showering before i take them home

is that ok ? .... dave2 : )

ps .... ( theres always one ... isnt there ! )

[WinnieTheKhwai]

That is SO nice.. You own a TV especially for 'new friends' that you haven't met yet.. And then even when shopping you'd buy all these items that you don't much care for yourself but that you know will be appreciated, such as bottles of Spy or Bacardi Breezer, pickled or dried mango, spare cheapo toothbrushes.. And you'd have this storage box for all the clothing & hair accessories that people tend to shed, just in case someone ever asks you if you've seen their hair clip or bracelet.. That's so romantic in a way!

[Ulysses G.]

Don't forget about dried fish snacks. Those are really appreciated!

[jackr]

ps ... if anyone doesnt think it a nice room worth 4000 baht a month please keep your comments to yourself coz i dont need your opinions : )

Perhaps not the best place to post pics if you can't take the flak. Looks ok for 4k I guess, but if you went another 1k for somewhere like Baan Thai on Nimbleheadman, you'd poo yourself if you're the type that's easily pleased.

[getgoin]

[...]

No argument there. You know what, I think we basically agree:

- Thailand is inherently more dangerous than first world countries; it's simply not a first world country in terms of safety regulations, health & emergency services, law enforcement, and so on. This may scare off some groups, while being 'part of the attraction' to other groups of visitors.

- This slightly elevated risk may not be too much of a factor in reduced tourist numbers. The elephant in the room really is the economy.

WTK

I couldn't agree more

/ Priceless

I disagree. Thailand is a much safer country than the US. The police, the criminals and the racists in western countries make it much more likely that you will get robbed or beaten than even in the worst neighborhoods of Thailand.

[LomSak27]

getgoin posted

I disagree. Thailand is a much safer country than the US. The police, the criminals and the racists in western countries make it much more likely that you will get robbed or beaten than even in the worst neighborhoods of Thailand

Unfortunatly statistics say you are wrong, however it is a fact no one likes to hear bad things said about their sandbox.

[elektrified]

Chiang Mai Fun

re ..... 60 channels for Wee is slightly misleading considering only 8 or so are in English?

are there ? ... now thats interesting coz ive never watched a tv programe in the ten months ive been living here !

computers i do .... tv ... i dont

im like ian forbes , i have afternoon visitors who sometimes like to watch tv after their " work " is finnished or untill they have to go and see someone else ????

Maybe they have to go and see IanForbes next?

[getgoin]

getgoin posted

I disagree. Thailand is a much safer country than the US. The police, the criminals and the racists in western countries make it much more likely that you will get robbed or beaten than even in the worst neighborhoods of Thailand

Unfortunatly statistics say you are wrong, however it is a fact no one likes to hear bad things said about their sandbox.

Fortunately, statistics say I am right. Although there are more murders per capita in Thailand than in the US in just about everything else the US and yes, the UK, Italy, Germany, France, Spain and the Eastern European block are right up there. The good news is that while there is a lot of crime in New Zealand, we all suspected this, there is no crime in Australia.

Source: http://www.nationmaster.com/cat/cri-crime

Crime Statistics > Rapes (per capita) (most recent) by country

# 9 United States: 0.301318 per 1,000 people# 27 Thailand: 0.0626305 per 1,000 people

Crime Statistics > Robberies (per capita) (most recent) by country

# 11 United States: 1.38527 per 1,000 people # 62 Thailand: 0.0121522 per 1,000 people

Crime Statistics > Total crimes (per capita) (most recent) by country

# 8 United States: 80.0645 per 1,000 people# 47 Thailand: 8.80422 per 1,000 people

Crime Statistics > Assaults (per capita) (most recent) by country # 6 United States: 7.56923 per 1,000 people # 44 Thailand: 0.313542 per 1,000 people

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

The aspect your not accounting for is under reporting. For example in Thailand many road fatalities never make into into the govt hospital statistics. If someone in a small village dies on a motorbike they go straight to the temple for cremation and are not counted.

I have heard estimates of 10,000+non reported traffic fatalities in thailand per year.

Consider the dismal womens rights in Thailand and the stigma associated with being raped? Do you think rape statistics could be signifcantly under reported to save face? Very possible.

The more developed a country is then typically their reporting is more accurate.

Edited October 25, 2009 by CobraSnakeNecktie

[Mapguy]

... "The more developed a country is then typically their reporting is more accurate." ...

Very, very good observation. Otherwise, crime statistics tend to be very sloppy for lots of reasons regardless of location.

I think the claim about cremating dead accident victims with little fuss and bother is really interesting. I'm not shocked to hear it. In the USA, I believe that morticians were once called "ambulance chasers." The first at an accident scene could apparently claim the dead bodies! Anyway, can anyone actually confirm the disposition (if you'll pardon the following expression) of Thai motorbike roadkill?

[getgoin]

The aspect your not accounting for is under reporting. For example in Thailand many road fatalities never make into into the govt hospital statistics. If someone in a small village dies on a motorbike they go straight to the temple for cremation and are not counted.

I have heard estimates of 10,000+non reported traffic fatalities in thailand per year.

Consider the dismal womens rights in Thailand and the stigma associated with being raped? Do you think rape statistics could be signifcantly under reported to save face? Very possible.

The more developed a country is then typically their reporting is more accurate.

Just the facts. The Thais are very good about making reports and paperwork. They are very methodical. Under reporting probably happens everywhere. The fact is we can't guess and we have to go by the statistics. Unless, of course, we are talking about the guessing statistics.

If we are not going by the statistics and we are guessing, it would be "my guess" that Thailand is still a safer country than many western countries.

Tourism was down for the last couple of years because of the perception of people who live in these western countries guessing that crime and danger is worse in Thailand than in their respective countries and it scares the hel_l out of them.

This is also not to say that Thailand did not help with these perceptions.

Two years ago they helped their economy by changing governments before the term was over. This conjures up all sorts of images in the western psyche of army recruits speaking Spanish inside US surplus jeeps laden with bananas.

Last year they wanted so badly to call attention to their political bickering that they ignored all civilized reasoning and took over their airport. Something one would expect to to happen, well, only in Thailand.

After suffering for a few years, the parties seem to realize that they have caused themselves some damage but this year, economic conditions in the world are not allowing the numbers to return to normal or to at least attempt to return to normal levels. This year the perception of safety and crime is not as much an issue as is the perception of the personal and national economic situation.

[Donnyboy]

Don't forget about dried fish snacks. Those are really appreciated!

im sure dave will have them next time you visit

[invex]

@ Getgoin.

Also from Nationmaster;

Murders per capita: # 14 Thailand #24 USA

Murders with firearms: # 3 Thailand # 4 USA (Thailand double from USA).

Gun violence, homecides w firearms: # 1 Thailand # 7 USA

http://www.nationmaster.com

Pls, when you say "a" say "b" also.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I don't get your single focus on crime. As I explained earlier, crime is just one aspect when it come to safety, and I would agree with you that when it comes to violent crime against tourists, Thailand is very safe.

Sadly, tourists come to harm due to many other safety issues. That's why the statistics don't look that good when compared with tourism in Western countries. However the 'glass half full' view would be that Thailand does better than the other countries in the region you could reasonably compare it against: India and Indonesia.

Edited October 25, 2009 by WinnieTheKhwai

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

The aspect your not accounting for is under reporting. For example in Thailand many road fatalities never make into into the govt hospital statistics. If someone in a small village dies on a motorbike they go straight to the temple for cremation and are not counted.

I have heard estimates of 10,000+non reported traffic fatalities in thailand per year.

Consider the dismal womens rights in Thailand and the stigma associated with being raped? Do you think rape statistics could be signifcantly under reported to save face? Very possible.

The more developed a country is then typically their reporting is more accurate.

Just the facts. The Thais are very good about making reports and paperwork. They are very methodical. Under reporting probably happens everywhere. The fact is we can't guess and we have to go by the statistics. Unless, of course, we are talking about the guessing statistics.

Statistics use data which is collected to try to describe underlying realities.

Do a search on Thaivisa. Under reporting of traffic fatalities has been estimated by the govt before. They don't report the estimates but rather report actual govt hospital system statistics. In many western countries every death by law requires a death certificate prior to disposal. That is not the case in Thailand. Governments with fewer resources do a less thorough job at reporting. That has been studied and proven many times over whether it be public safety issues or econometrics.

Sure all countries under report to some degree because they can only report data which is collected for measure. 'Facts' or descriptive statistics are only as good as the collection system. If a country only has a scant few pollution detection measurements then does it mean they don't have pollution?

Victim guilt or embarrassment is one factor in under reporting. Does anyone really think women in Thailand report rape as often as western countries?

No serious economist would treat Russian or Chinese govt reported data the same as US or UK data. Data often requires an adjustment to try to make intelligent guesses about underlying realities.

Some categories in Thailand like murder are probably well reported while rape and traffic fatalities probably less well. That is significant information when determining underlying realities or so called "Facts".

[Johpa]

The aspect your not accounting for is under reporting. For example in Thailand many road fatalities never make into into the govt hospital statistics. If someone in a small village dies on a motorbike they go straight to the temple for cremation and are not counted.

Actually all deaths are reported by the local headman to the kamnaan and onward to Amphoe. More recently in might be reported to the local tambon development office (O.P.T.), an office that is increasingly taking some of the administration duties from the local kamnaan. Although a fatality may not make it into a hospital, the death is recorded. It is only in the most isolated villages that a death may not get recorded, and there are far fewer such villages today than in years past.

[rishi]

Hmm... Just dropped into this thread due to its heading: "Tourist numbers drop by almost one million"... After reading through the first pageful of posts, which DID relate to the thread-title, I jumped to this last page, to check if there should be something to reply to with respect to the thread-title.... Sorry to see, (at least) the last page full of posts seem to be some discussion of how well crime-statistics are performing depending on degree of development in this or that country ... I must admit, I'm a bit disappointed that the thread apparently has turned into something that will be fooling someone interested in the topic promised by its title and not particularly interested in the quality of crime statistic. Seems to me this thread is long time overdone, but never mind - enjoy your piggy back exchanges.

[samuibeachcomber]

its the way most topics go after a while.the early bird catches the worm,you have to be in at the beginning,you can always reclaim by quoting the original post you know.

[dave2]

elektrified ..

no offence but .

re ... Maybe they have to go and see IanForbes next?

who cares ?

im a customer just like everyone elso even you !

i like to be 10 cc lighter once or twice a week and i enjoy it !

who my " girl friends " see before me .... i dont care ..... who they see after me .... i dont care .... im happy spending a little time with a stunning 19 / 25 thai girl rather than a 50 / 60 or 70 year year old english granny with five daughters , three sons ( two of whom who are into drugs or have been to prison ) 11 grandchildren and TONS of unwanted baggage and countless ccjm ( county court judjements ) or debts against them and are up to their eyeballs in debt from the uk anyday

thailand rules in my book .... uk grannys .... f### right off : ) ... ive been there and done that !

and NEVER will again !

enjoy .... love my time in thailand .... dave2

[getgoin]

@ Getgoin.

Also from Nationmaster;

Murders per capita: # 14 Thailand #24 USA

Murders with firearms: # 3 Thailand # 4 USA (Thailand double from USA).

Gun violence, homecides w firearms: # 1 Thailand # 7 USA

http://www.nationmaster.com

Pls, when you say "a" say "b" also.

If you read my post it clearly said, "Although there are more murders per capita in Thailand than in the US..." Just the facts.

[KevinHunt]

If murder rates and levels of danger are higher in Thailand than a lot of other places then I'm sure that the vast majority of potential tourists are totaly unaware of that. I don't deny the figures but I don't think it affects the average tourist or expat.

In twenty years of living here I haven't suffered as much as a 'who are you looking at' type of attitude never mind physical violence. Without a doubt I feel a lot safer here than I would back home, and I imagine most people feel the same.

If you are looking for an explanation as to why tourism is down then looking at murder rates or degrees of danger may not be the answer. At a guess, I would still think that most peoples perception of Thailand is of warm friendly people. The fact that the perception may not match up with reality is interesting, but not unusual or surprising.

As regards to the statement 'Heads Spin' - I just checked mine and it isn't.

Edited October 25, 2009 by KevinHunt

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Rishi, I don't agree with your gripe on how discussions evolve, or branch. That is natural and expected in any discussion anywhere. In this case it's one step away from the OP: someone claimed tourist numbers are down because of safety issues; once that point has been made it warrants exploration to see if there is merit in that.

You don't want to explore this aspect: great! Find the OP, hit reply, and have your say! Chances are your statement would cause an additional aspect to be further explored.

Whining about where discussions evolve I think is not reasonable unless people really go off the deep end. Or, when in the pub with two friends and talking about something and then get to a related topic do you jump in and sob about their discussion?

[elektrified]

elektrified ..

no offence but .

re ... Maybe they have to go and see IanForbes next?

who cares ?

im a customer just like everyone elso even you !

i like to be 10 cc lighter once or twice a week and i enjoy it !

who my " girl friends " see before me .... i dont care ..... who they see after me .... i dont care .... im happy spending a little time with a stunning 19 / 25 thai girl rather than a 50 / 60 or 70 year year old english granny with five daughters , three sons ( two of whom who are into drugs or have been to prison ) 11 grandchildren and TONS of unwanted baggage and countless ccjm ( county court judjements ) or debts against them and are up to their eyeballs in debt from the uk anyday

thailand rules in my book .... uk grannys .... f### right off : ) ... ive been there and done that !

and NEVER will again !

enjoy .... love my time in thailand .... dave2

dave2, it was only a joke; not to be taken seriously. And no I'm not a customer - never have been. I understand where you are coming from. Enjoy your time!

[WinnieTheKhwai]

^ Thank you (both) for providing an example of 'off the deep end' (when it comes to side-line discussions) so quickly after I pointed out the difference between "exploring a related sub-issue" and "something completely unrelated" to Rishi. Appreciated!

Posts like the one above will really get interesting discussions culled prematurely for all participants; we see it time and again.

Edited October 26, 2009 by WinnieTheKhwai