What has pacifism ever ended? Slavery? Nazism? Perhaps the life of the pacifist if a "war-monger" wasn't defending it?

One third of all humans live in countries that got their independence non-violently since 1945.

Can you name five?

The mention that terrorist only aim to kill as many as possible, I ask you, were the nukes dropped on Japan not designed for a similar reason?

The atomic bombs weren't the most horrific of weapons used in WWII. The allied fire-bombing of cities such as Dresden and Tokyo were pretty nasty. But it all could have been avoided if the Axis powers decided against starting the war.

They could have dropped them (or one) just outside the coastline so that civilians and the already defeated Japanese rulers could see what was up next when they thought of continue the fighting.

I can 100% guarantee beyond the shadow of any doubt whatsoever that dropping the atomic bomb off the coastline would not have resulted in a Japanese surrender. Dropping one (of I think only 3 available at the time) onto a city killing approx. 100,000 instantly didn't result in a surrender on Aug 6th. On Aug 8th Soviets declare war on Japan. On Aug 9th 2nd atomic bomb dropped on Nagasaki - only then did the Japanese seek peace. So it is foolish to think that making a big splash off the coastline would have done the trick.

I believe there were only two bombs on Aug. 5 - Big Boy and Little Boy. The Allied Powers were so insane - as the Axis was - that they threw both at Japan before it knew what hit them. The Allies, being insane from years of horrific wars that intentionally killed noncombatants on both sides, were deceived into believing Hirohito would fight down to his last 10-year old. The emperor had already asked for peace under terms Truman would soon accept. Truman exploded both bombs, killing innocents. And nation-states are still aiming far more powerful bombs that violate all rules of moral warfare, because we never meant to follow those rules,

One third of all humans live in countries that got their independence non-violently since 1945.

Can you name five?

India, Pakistan. Philipines, Russia, Mongolia, Albania, Latvia, Estonia, Bulgaria, Czech-Slovakia, Indonesia, Nigeria, E. Germany, Argentina, Malaysia, Tunisia,,,,,,,,,,,,

What has pacifism ever ended? Slavery? Nazism? Perhaps the life of the pacifist if a "war-monger" wasn't defending it?

Wars don't end wars. Lincoln didn't have to kill to free the slaves; Washington didn't need to kill British; etc.

The mention that terrorist only aim to kill as many as possible, I ask you, were the nukes dropped on Japan not designed for a similar reason?

The atomic bombs weren't the most horrific of weapons used in WWII. The allied fire-bombing of cities such as Dresden and Tokyo were pretty nasty. But it all could have been avoided if the Axis powers decided against starting the war.

They could have dropped them (or one) just outside the coastline so that civilians and the already defeated Japanese rulers could see what was up next when they thought of continue the fighting.

I can 100% guarantee beyond the shadow of any doubt whatsoever that dropping the atomic bomb off the coastline would not have resulted in a Japanese surrender. Dropping one (of I think only 3 available at the time) onto a city killing approx. 100,000 instantly didn't result in a surrender on Aug 6th. On Aug 8th Soviets declare war on Japan. On Aug 9th 2nd atomic bomb dropped on Nagasaki - only then did the Japanese seek peace. So it is foolish to think that making a big splash off the coastline would have done the trick.

I believe there were only two bombs on Aug. 5 - Big Boy and Little Boy. The Allied Powers were so insane - as the Axis was - that they threw both at Japan before it knew what hit them. The Allies, being insane from years of horrific wars that intentionally killed noncombatants on both sides, were deceived into believing Hirohito would fight down to his last 10-year old. The emperor had already asked for peace under terms Truman would soon accept. Truman exploded both bombs, killing innocents. And nation-states are still aiming far more powerful bombs that violate all rules of moral warfare, because we never meant to follow those rules,

The bombs were dropped 3 days apart on Aug 6th & Aug 9th.

One third of all humans live in countries that got their independence non-violently since 1945.

Can you name five?

India, Pakistan. Philipines, Russia, Mongolia, Albania, Latvia, Estonia, Bulgaria, Czech-Slovakia, Indonesia, Nigeria, E. Germany, Argentina, Malaysia, Tunisia,,,,,,,,,,,,

Germany got their independence non-violently? That must be a typo. [edit - I see it's EAST Germany - see comment below about Warsaw Pact members]

Russia had a violent coup which freed the other soviet republics, Warsaw Pact members and led to Mongolia moving from communism. Not to mention the proxy wars (Afghanistan being the most recent) and military arms build-up which helped bankrupt the USSR to the point of collapse in the first place. Coup, war, and the manic pursuit of weapons set them free.

Former colonies of European powers in Africa & Asia gained independence post-WWII because the war made it too expensive for their "masters" to keep them. War in Europe set them free.

The Philippines was on its way to independence before WWII came. Thank the imperialist Americans for that one.

Argentina also had a violent coup in 1955.

That leaves...none of them.

The bombs were dropped 3 days apart on Aug 6th & Aug 9th.

Not enough time to realize what happened. Regardless, it violated the rules of warfare for 1,600 years, as did Guernica, the blitz of London, Hamburg; Tokyo. They were insane with the lust of war - not saints.

E. Germany

Germany got their independence non-violently? That must be a typo.

He said/typed E...Germany

E. Germany

Germany got their independence non-violently? That must be a typo.

He said/typed E...Germany

Saw that and amended my original post.

One third of all humans live in countries that got their independence non-violently since 1945.

Can you name five?

India, Pakistan. Philipines, Russia, Mongolia, Albania, Latvia, Estonia, Bulgaria, Czech-Slovakia, Indonesia, Nigeria, E. Germany, Argentina, Malaysia, Tunisia,,,,,,,,,,,,

Russia had a violent coup which freed the other soviet republics, Warsaw Pact members and led to Mongolia moving from communism. Not to mention the proxy wars (Afghanistan being the most recent) and military arms build-up which helped bankrupt the USSR to the point of collapse in the first place. Coup, war, and the manic pursuit of weapons set them free.

Former colonies of European powers in Africa & Asia gained independence post-WWII because the war made it too expensive for their "masters" to keep them. War in Europe set them free.

The Philippines was on its way to independence before WWII came. Thank the imperialist Americans for that one.

Argentina also had a violent coup in 1955.

That leaves...none of them.

That leaves most or all of them. The 1991 Soviet coup attempt tried to be violent and failed. The Soviet empire failed in Afghanistan and collapsed non-violently except for Romania and a very small, brief war in Slovenia. The Philipines were delivered from Marcos by People Power led by a nonviolent lady. Argentina was later freed non-violently. My list stands.

India, Pakistan. Philipines, Russia, Mongolia, Albania, Latvia, Estonia, Bulgaria, Czech-Slovakia, Indonesia, Nigeria, E. Germany, Argentina, Malaysia, Tunisia,,,,,,,,,,,,

Russia had a violent coup which freed the other soviet republics, Warsaw Pact members and led to Mongolia moving from communism. Not to mention the proxy wars (Afghanistan being the most recent) and military arms build-up which helped bankrupt the USSR to the point of collapse in the first place. Coup, war, and the manic pursuit of weapons set them free.

Former colonies of European powers in Africa & Asia gained independence post-WWII because the war made it too expensive for their "masters" to keep them. War in Europe set them free.

The Philippines was on its way to independence before WWII came. Thank the imperialist Americans for that one.

Argentina also had a violent coup in 1955.

That leaves...none of them.

That leaves most or all of them. The 1991 Soviet coup attempt tried to be violent and failed. The Soviet empire failed in Afghanistan and collapsed non-violently except for Romania and a very small, brief war in Slovenia. The Philipines were delivered from Marcos by People Power led by a nonviolent lady. Argentina was later freed non-violently. My list stands.

Without war, violent coup or the pursuit of war, your list is blank. The Soviet coup WAS violent. People died. On the streets of Moscow (some even made it on postage stamps), at the border with Lithuania, in the TV tower in Vilnius.

There was lots of violence leading up to the collapse of these regimes.

"UG: There was lots of violence leading up to the collapse of these regimes." Some - a tiny bit, and many victims were non-combatants. So let's say you are a violent Hindu or Muslim leader in greater India, 1915. You want to lead an independence movement. How many Indians die - 50 million, or 150 million? You're not MLK Jr. and you want to liberate Negros in 1954. Are you willing to tear the country apart again over race? Corazon Aquino, a widow whose husband was probably converted to NVDA just before they killed him - do you start a civil war, or People Power? Militarism wastes maybe 100 million people from 1750 to 1945, and finally is bankrupt because it waged wars, so that makes you think war is divinely righteous? Only in Orwell's 1984..

You keep saying that we think that war is divinely righteous and love violence, but I don't think that way at all. I think that it is the way humans solve things and we have no choice to participate or be stomped on.

I admire you for being willing to lose your life for what you believe, but I much rather be able defend my friends and family.

You keep saying that we think that war is divinely righteous and love violence, but I don't think that way at all. I think that it is the way humans solve things and we have no choice to participate or be stomped on.

I admire you for being willing to lose your life for what you believe, but I much rather be able defend my friends and family

Good; you think you don't believe warfare is divinely righteous. I'm no passivist but I've been an active peacemaker. Who then gives the orders to kill, and why? When can a Thai or Khmer or US Marine refuse to kill? The order comes from far away no more.

I'm sorry, but are you saying that you are not a pacifist? Do I understand correctly?

DICTIONARY

PACIFIST is not passivist. A violent person allows his countries to fight unjust wars without protest. A peacemaker creates peace, nonviolently. I suspect you don't understand peace. Or war.

You have gone on incessantly about pacifism. I got the strong feeling that you were one. I don't care if you are a "peacemaker" as I've probably marched in more peace rallies than you have.

Are you willing to let your enemy take your life and not fight back?

I believe there were only two bombs on Aug. 5 - Big Boy and Little Boy. The Allied Powers were so insane - as the Axis was - that they threw both at Japan before it knew what hit them. The Allies, being insane from years of horrific wars that intentionally killed noncombatants on both sides, were deceived into believing Hirohito would fight down to his last 10-year old. The emperor had already asked for peace under terms Truman would soon accept. Truman exploded both bombs, killing innocents. And nation-states are still aiming far more powerful bombs that violate all rules of moral warfare, because we never meant to follow those rules,

OK, everybody.

PB "believes" both bombs were dropped on the same day. Start re-writing all those incorrect history books scattered around the world.

And the conservatives among us are criticized for not providing proof? This is turning into a joke.

You have gone on incessantly about pacifism. I got the strong feeling that you were one. I don't care if you are a "peacemaker" as I've probably marched in more peace rallies than you have.

Are you willing to let your enemy take your life and not fight back?

Absolutely AND WITH NO REGRET. Which motivates me to negotiate. When was your last peace rally? Better yet - your last non-violent peace-making activity in a conflict zone? Mine might have been late 2001.

I'm sorry PB....I'm basically on your side for peace, but not to your extreme....you can't have regret when you're dead.

How would we evolve, or continue our gene line, if we laid bare or necks to every enemy?

Why don't you think that the Palestinians should negotiate if you are such a peacemaker? You demand that Israel leave when the Palestinians don't have any land or a leg to stand on. They started the war and they lost it.

Anyone who does not encourage them to negotiate at this point in time is as morally bankrupt as anyone they are moaning about.

I'm sorry PB....I'm basically on your side for peace, but not to your extreme....you can't have regret when you're dead.

How would we evolve, or continue our gene line, if we laid bare or necks to every enemy?

I'll agree with you there. We need to eliminate the evil from the gene pool and having the pacifists sacrificing themselves is not the way to do it.

I'm sorry PB....I'm basically on your side for peace, but not to your extreme....you can't have regret when you're dead.

How would we evolve, or continue our gene line, if we laid bare or necks to every enemy?

I don't expect everybody to join me at this extreme. Yes, you're on the jeace and justice side. As for death, we all die. I choose not to do it with blood on my hands. I would be overly dramatic as Lady Macbeth. As for continuing my gene line, this gay man raised six kids.

Yes, you're on the jeace and justice side.

No he isn't. He's just on the side that you agree with. You have proved that you have no more insight than the rest of us.

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was 183 times ( 6 times a day) water boarded, and the other suspect (Abu Zubaydah,) 83 times when he already had confessed to all crimes.

But hey, water boarding is not torture right, just a funny excersise to keep someone awake, please try it yourself I am sure you will admit to raping your own children even if you don't have any.

I ask again what other evidence does the US have that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed planned the attacks other then his testimony given after some silly technique called water boarding?

Do you agree that the (extremist) Taliban were created by the CIA to fight Russia?

http://www.greenleft.org.au/2001/465/25199

Do you agree that governments like the US don't give a fukc how many people will die in order to secure economic interests?

Take Panama as an example....

Hey all, it is really good to see we can exchange different views with each other in a civil way without too much flaming.

Looking forward to continue this thread.

Alex

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed killed over 3,000 innocent people. Frankly, I don't care how often they waterboard him.

I believe there were only two bombs on Aug. 5 - Big Boy and Little Boy. The Allied Powers were so insane - as the Axis was - that they threw both at Japan before it knew what hit them. The Allies, being insane from years of horrific wars that intentionally killed noncombatants on both sides, were deceived into believing Hirohito would fight down to his last 10-year old. The emperor had already asked for peace under terms Truman would soon accept. Truman exploded both bombs, killing innocents. And nation-states are still aiming far more powerful bombs that violate all rules of moral warfare, because we never meant to follow those rules,

OK, everybody.

PB "believes" both bombs were dropped on the same day. Start re-writing all those incorrect history books scattered around the world.

And the conservatives among us are criticized for not providing proof? This is turning into a joke.

People make mistakes....

There were two bombs.... Called Little Boy & Fat Man....dropped Little Boy on Monday, August 6, 1945 & Fat Man dropped on August 9th. As for conservatives? providing proof you could have easily done so. But again it was just an error of dates not intent of what was being discussed eh?

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed killed over 3,000 innocent people. Frankly, I don't care how often they waterboard him.

Quite a few are guilty of killing innocents the group whose actions you cheer lead among them & we dont need to water board them to know it. Yet in your world only one side must pay a price for it.