According to General Patreas (sorry if name spelled wrong) there are no Al Quida warriors in Afghanistan!

The Taliban are not Al Quida.

So what? The Taliban are allies of Al Quida and they allowed them to train and use Agfanastan as a base. They are as much the enemy as any other terrorists.

Please UG have a look at the docu.

For Godsake it is just a few minutes of your life.

I have provided so many links to show you that what we are doing there is not the right way.

Again I ask you to read the link I posted and look at the docu: Rethinking Afghanistan.

If you choose not to and therefore deny wanting to look at reality, I believe you are just trolling.

Have a look please.

Two points here, and as a military combat vet of Iraq, I do believe my opinions are relevant.

First, I am against the use of torture.  As a person who was often out in Baghdad in a single vehicle, I did wonder what would happen if I were captured.  I would have been much more at ease if all parties scrupulously upheld the Geneva Conventions.

Now having written that, I am not crying over someone having feces smeared on them, by themselves (as I know it has happened in protest) or even by others.  I am not crying over a naked dogpile or hoods being put on them.  And while I would not have let it happen, I am not even going to lose too much sleep over waterboarding.  As bad as waterboarding is, once it is over, it is over, with no lasting physical harm.  ( I have been to Abu Ghraib, I have seen the facilities, so I do have a little bit of knowledge about the place.)

But I have seen people who have survived torture by those fighting the coalition forces and the Saddam forces before that.  I have seen what was done to them, how they will never be whole men again.  I have read the body count each morning of people tortured and killed, with ways as obscene as having an electric drill drilled into them 40 or 50 times until they finally die.  

I would have liked to think our forces were above any of what they did, but I am always amazed at the vitriol aimed at the US for Abu Ghraib while the true murder and torture done by the "other side" seemingly gets a free pass. 

Second, while I have my own problems with us being in Iraq, I have zero qualms about Afghanistan. The US was attacked in an act of war by bin Laden and his organization.  He was in Afghanistan, getting both support and refuge from the Taliban.  When the Taliban, which just happened to be one of the most repressive regimes in the world, refused to turn over bin Laden, as a common criminal, they they wrote their own ticket.  

The phrase "illegal occupation" gets thrown around alot here and elsewhere.  Just what the heck does that mean?  It is meaningless.

Afghanistan has come a long ay since the Taliban was kicked out of Kabul.  Hopefully it can continue to make progress and all foreign troops can leave.

Please UG have a look at the docu.

For Godsake it is just a few minutes of your life.

I have provided so many links to show you that what we are doing there is not the right way.

Again I ask you to read the link I posted and look at the docu: Rethinking Afghanistan.

If you choose not to and deny wanting to look at reality, I believe you are just trolling.

Have a look please.

A far left organization (Brave New Foundation) makes a documentary about the war and it is "reality"? Or is it just their version? Just as some never believe the US military, I tend to take with a grain of salt anything these guys put out. Besides, how can people with preconceived ideas about something as controversial like the war, be expected to make a documentary that doesn't fit their way of thinking? Look at it this way, if a Pro-Life organization makes a documentary about abortion, would you expect it to be pro-choice?

Two points here, and as a military combat vet of Iraq, I do believe my opinions are relevant.

First, I am against the use of torture. As a person who was often out in Baghdad in a single vehicle, I did wonder what would happen if I were captured. I would have been much more at ease if all parties scrupulously upheld the Geneva Conventions.

Now having written that, I am not crying over someone having feces smeared on them, by themselves (as I know it has happened in protest) or even by others. I am not crying over a naked dogpile or hoods being put on them. And while I would not have let it happen, I am not even going to lose too much sleep over waterboarding. As bad as waterboarding is, once it is over, it is over, with no lasting physical harm. ( I have been to Abu Ghraib, I have seen the facilities, so I do have a little bit of knowledge about the place.)

But I have seen people who have survived torture by those fighting the coalition forces and the Saddam forces before that. I have seen what was done to them, how they will never be whole men again. I have read the body count each morning of people tortured and killed, with ways as obscene as having an electric drill drilled into them 40 or 50 times until they finally die.

I would have liked to think our forces were above any of what they did, but I am always amazed at the vitriol aimed at the US for Abu Ghraib while the true murder and torture done by the "other side" seemingly gets a free pass.

Second, while I have my own problems with us being in Iraq, I have zero qualms about Afghanistan. The US was attacked in an act of war by bin Laden and his organization. He was in Afghanistan, getting both support and refuge from the Taliban. When the Taliban, which just happened to be one of the most repressive regimes in the world, refused to turn over bin Laden, as a common criminal, they they wrote their own ticket.

The phrase "illegal occupation" gets thrown around alot here and elsewhere. Just what the heck does that mean? It is meaningless.

Afghanistan has come a long ay since the Taliban was kicked out of Kabul. Hopefully it can continue to make progress and all foreign troops can leave.

Great post.

In the past the US funded and trained the most radical Moslims to fight against the Russians and commit act's of terror.

You agree or not?

These fighters where called freedom fighters by the US.

You agree or not?

The US supported those freedom fighters with weapons, training and money.

You agree ore not?

They were called the Mudjahideen (sorry for spelling).

You agree or not?

US supported those people and called them Northern alliance.

You agree ore not?

Those Northern alliance Afghans are the most extreme Sharia law peeps.

You agree or not?

The US supported the Taliban and those Northern alliance peeps before and still do.

You agree or not?

And with you saying I do not believe what the US military is saying , obviously you have not looked at the docu I mentioned: Rethinking Afghanistan.

I believe what those American people are saying.

Are you a Troll?

Quote Bonobo:

Second, while I have my own problems with us being in Iraq, I have zero qualms about Afghanistan. The US was attacked in an act of war by bin Laden and his organization. He was in Afghanistan, getting both surefusepport and refuge from the Taliban. When the Taliban, which just happened to be one of the most repressive regimes in the world, d to turn over bin Laden, as a common criminal, they they wrote their own ticket.

You are wrong Bonobo, please check my post where it is clear that the Taliban did want to hand over BL under some reasonable conditions.

Bush just refused and kept on bombing.

Are you a Troll?

To whom are you posting this question?

Quote Bonobo:

Second, while I have my own problems with us being in Iraq, I have zero qualms about Afghanistan. The US was attacked in an act of war by bin Laden and his organization. He was in Afghanistan, getting both surefusepport and refuge from the Taliban. When the Taliban, which just happened to be one of the most repressive regimes in the world, d to turn over bin Laden, as a common criminal, they they wrote their own ticket.

You are wrong Bonobo, please check my post where it is clear that the Taliban did want to hand over BL under some reasonable conditions.

Bush just refused and kept on bombing.

No, it is not clear, so I am not sure how you can take your opinion on what are "reasonable conditions" and categorically state I am "wrong."

In the past the US funded and trained the most radical Moslims to fight against the Russians and commit act's of terror.

You agree or not?

No, I don't.

These fighters where called freedom fighters by the US.

You agree or not?

By the US and others, yes.

The US supported those freedom fighters with weapons, training and money.

You agree ore not?

Yes.

They were called the Mudjahideen (sorry for spelling).

You agree or not?

Some freedom fighters were Mujahadin but not all.

US supported those people and called them Northern alliance.

You agree ore not?

No. The Northern Alliance is/was made up of different Afghan groups fighting the Taliban. They were supported by a lot of countries before the US came into the picture. Google is great, isn't it?

Those Northern alliance Afghans are the most extreme Sharia law peeps.

You agree or not?

Wow. Even more extreme than the Taliban? That I did not know. But no, I don't agree with you on this one..

The US supported the Taliban and those Northern alliance peeps before and still do.

You agree or not?

Now we support the Taliban too? I guess I really could learn something from those documentaries you keep touting.

And with you saying I do not believe what the US military is saying , obviously you have not looked at the docu I mentioned: Rethinking Afghanistan.

I believe what those American people are saying.

Are you a Troll?

You constantly push fanatical left-wing propaganda and you call me a troll? At least you are generally polite about it (except calling people trolls who don't want to subject themselves to an hour of watching the documentary. I watch on of the earlier ones you posted a link to. You remember, the one made by Italian communists? So I've already done my time.

 

Maybe it is because I don't know how an x-ray will be able to tell if the substance in my head is actually concrete or not?

, I am not crying over someone having feces smeared on them, by themselves (as I know it has happened in protest) or even by others.  I am not crying over a naked dogpile or hoods being put on them.  And while I would not have let it happen, I am not even going to lose too much sleep over waterboarding.  As bad as waterboarding is, once it is over, it is over, with no lasting physical harm.  ( I have been to Abu Ghraib, I have seen the facilities, so I do have a little bit of knowledge about the place.)

The pics you see are in fact the tip of it.

Folks always look to the least offence......Yes feces in the face ....not bad.

How about burns,beating,shock & dislocated joints ? Getting there yet?

Obama did a sharp reversal & decided he would not release

the photos from Gitmo. If it were not horrific he would have kept his original word & released them.

As it cost him much credibility.

Someone said two wrongs dont make a right awhile back. I know it was sarcasm but it is appropriate when excusing torture as a pay back for worse things your enemy did.

I am glad to read "And while I would not have let it happen"

I have a very good friend that was kidnapped during the early days of the Iraq war. He was held captive for 331 days until he was rescued by the US Marines.

He was kept in a cellar with his hands and feet tied for virtually the entire period. His solitary confinement was extreme in that the cellar was sealed up each time his captors left. He said he never knew if he would come out of the ordeal alive, but the sheer isolation is what bothered him the most.

Our Islamic friends are not very good jail keepers either.

His book will be coming out next month. I believe the title is "Buried Alive".

Well, if the story is as "true" and dramatic as the Private Jessica Lynch story....it's sure to be an exciting piece of fiction.

Which brings the topic to how media stories of torture are recieved and percieved. How we in the West are spoon-fed stories, often (as in the case of Pte Jessicca Lynch) deliberately falsefied by US officials, for propaganda purposes.

OF COURSE we will be told and "shown" that the enemy is terrible....it's not neccessarily true. Jessica Lynch proves how deceitfull the media and top officials can contrive to be.

He was kept in a cellar with his hands and feet tied for virtually the entire period. ..... but the sheer isolation is what bothered him the most.

Sheer Isolation/sensory Deprivation can be achieved even without a cellar

Afghanistan has come a long ay since the Taliban was kicked out of Kabul.  Hopefully it can continue to make progress and all foreign troops can leave.

which will only take a century... or perhaps two

He was kept in a cellar with his hands and feet tied for virtually the entire period. ..... but the sheer isolation is what bothered him the most.

Sheer Isolation/sensory Deprivation can be achieved even without a cellar

I'm shivering in my flip flops. Go to YouTube and search for "Saddam torture" and you'll see the real deal.

How about the men that were tied up and thrown from the top of a three story building. That is real torture. I bet they would have much prefered to go waterboarding.

I'm shivering in my flip flops. Go to YouTube and search for "Saddam torture" and you'll see the real deal.

How about the men that were tied up and thrown from the top of a three story building. That is real torture. I bet they would have much prefered to go waterboarding.

Always...Always the same............

Someone else did it worse so what is done now is ok/justified.....

I have a very good friend that was kidnapped during the early days of the Iraq war. He was held captive for 331 days until he was rescued by the US Marines.

He was kept in a cellar with his hands and feet tied for virtually the entire period. His solitary confinement was extreme in that the cellar was sealed up each time his captors left. He said he never knew if he would come out of the ordeal alive, but the sheer isolation is what bothered him the most.

Our Islamic friends are not very good jail keepers either.

His book will be coming out next month. I believe the title is "Buried Alive".

Well, if the story is as "true" and dramatic as the Private Jessica Lynch story....it's sure to be an exciting piece of fiction.

Which brings the topic to how media stories of torture are recieved and percieved. How we in the West are spoon-fed stories, often (as in the case of Pte Jessicca Lynch) deliberately falsefied by US officials, for propaganda purposes.

OF COURSE we will be told and "shown" that the enemy is terrible....it's not neccessarily true. Jessica Lynch proves how deceitfull the media and top officials can contrive to be.

Only three misspelled words in your post. Here are some links for your thought and consideration. Moveon.org had nothing to do with any of these links.

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/200046.php

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2009/12/17/phot...ducted-in-iraq/

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2d1_1261080551

I can find some more links if you doubt my veracity any longer.

Edit in: I just noticed "falsefied" is also misspelled. It should be "falsified". That makes the count four.

What is this OCD thing about spelling and grammar?

What is this OCD thing about spelling and grammar?

It's just a little game. I'm trying to let some hot air out of the thread.

What did you think about my links? Do they seem believable?

It's just a little game. I'm trying to let some hot air out of the thread.

Perhaps you could step away from the crack pipe or beer or what ever & start your own thread?

I'm shivering in my flip flops. Go to YouTube and search for "Saddam torture" and you'll see the real deal.

How about the men that were tied up and thrown from the top of a three story building. That is real torture. I bet they would have much prefered to go waterboarding.

Always...Always the same............

Someone else did it worse so what is done now is ok/justified.....

Always...Always the same............

If Israel or America did something it is terrible, if terrorists do it, it is no biggie.

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/200046.php

I would guess this girl & her sister wish they had been in that bunker Roy was in.

Unfortunately they live in tents which were sprayed by helicopters.Which set their tents on fire killing three of her family members.

They were burned & disfigured...

Also they are nomads that have no idea why the occupiers are there nor do they have any knowledge of 9-11 etc etc etc..

Always...Always the same............

If Israel or America did something it is terrible, if terrorists do it, it is no biggie.

No it is all bad...But I am not the one saying the Terrorist are not that bad because some else is worse.

By the same token if terrorist or Israel or any foreign force were occupying my homeland with the atrocities that go with that....I would do my level best to kill as many as possible.

I suppose that the point could be made that we, and I include all the Western world, are supposed to know better.

To me the German atrocities in WW2 were always more horrifying than those of the Japanese, because for a thousand years Germany was the cradle of western civilisation, the source of some of the greatest ideas in human history.

It's just a little game. I'm trying to let some hot air out of the thread.

Perhaps you could step away from the crack pipe or beer or what ever & start your own thread?

Perhaps you could stop implying I am a dope head or an alcoholic, neither of which are true.

If Israel or America did something it is terrible, if terrorists do it, it is no biggie.

if terrorist or Israel or any foreign force were occupying my homeland with the atrocities that go with that....I would do my level best to kill as many as possible.

Yes, but after they kicked the shit out of you over and over again and your family was living in a camp, wouldn't you be willing to negociate for your own homeland?

[

Yes, but after they kicked the shit out of you over and over again and your family was living in a camp, wouldn't you be willing to negociate for your own homeland?

No & neither will the tribes of Afghanistan....Want to place a bet that this will end the same as Vietnam?

Better hope Chuck does not notice your spelling of negotiate

Perhaps you could stop implying I am a dope head or an alcoholic, neither of which is true.

Perhaps you could quit acting like one & find a different thread to...Let the air out of as you implied?

Maybe, but we did not have a big problem the last time we we went after them full bore.

, I am not crying over someone having feces smeared on them, by themselves (as I know it has happened in protest) or even by others.  I am not crying over a naked dogpile or hoods being put on them.  And while I would not have let it happen, I am not even going to lose too much sleep over waterboarding.  As bad as waterboarding is, once it is over, it is over, with no lasting physical harm.  ( I have been to Abu Ghraib, I have seen the facilities, so I do have a little bit of knowledge about the place.)

The pics you see are in fact the tip of it.

Folks always look to the least offence......Yes feces in the face ....not bad.

How about burns,beating,shock & dislocated joints ? Getting there yet?

Obama did a sharp reversal & decided he would not release

the photos from Gitmo. If it were not horrific he would have kept his original word & released them.

As it cost him much credibility.

Someone said two wrongs dont make a right awhile back. I know it was sarcasm but it is appropriate when excusing torture as a pay back for worse things your enemy did.

I am glad to read "And while I would not have let it happen"

I do have perhaps more knowledge than most people in TV on what went on at Abu Ghraib and Gitmo.  And while there certainly were abuses at Abu Ghraib, they were more in the realm of humiliation than of physical torture (more, I wrote, not exclusively.)  Wrong, sure.  It is also wrong when a cop is a little more rough than he/she should be when arresting someone who doesn't cooperate, but generally, not too many people get overly upset unless the abuse is egregious.

I have talked to the person who was tasked for "cleaning up" Abu Ghraib, and things were changed.  People were punished, although the only high-ranking soldier to bite the dust was perhaps the least one at fault. In my mind, Abu Ghraib was a case where the military leadership was told to butt out, and consequently, the guards there were left to their own devices without proper supervision. 

It is not a case of two wrongs making a right, or that since worse was done by others, it makes it all copacetic, it is just that what was done at Abu Ghraib was not that egregious except for the public relations nightmare it became and for instigating some captures of uniformed US soldiers and their subsequent torture and murder.

At Gitmo, the situation was different.  There was zero widespread abuse in the prisoner population at large. There were interrogations on individuals which exceeded what is allowed for uniformed enemy combatants, and I will not argue here that this was proper.  But there really wasn't any of the same things which happened at Abu Ghraib to the general prisoner population.