It could be booby trapped........

Anywaysy, can some of our government actions be considered as terrorism?

This link for Chuck: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sh...ews/hougan.html

Snip:

Tell me about the results of that car bomb going off, the unsuccessful assassination attempt that ended up killing 80 people. What was the result?

The CIA was training counterterrorist people to retaliate against our enemies over there. One of the people that was identified as a desirable target was Sheik [Mohammed Hussein] Fadlallah, who was the spiritual leader of Hezbollah and who had been alleged, rightly or wrongly, to have blessed one of the suicide bombers who operated against us.

The CIA has taken the position that the bombing in west Beirut that was directed against Fadlallah was carried [out] by ... people who weren't actually operating on our orders. However, it's very clear that we made it apparent to the people that we were working with that Fadlallah was a meddlesome priest, that we should get rid of him, that that would be looked up favorably.

The bombing took place in a public square when the mosque let out, and when it was thought that Fadlallah would be coming through. In effect, you had hundreds of people who were leaving the Muslim equivalent of church. More than 80 people were killed. The remark at the time was that everyone was certain it was a CIA operation, because everybody got killed except the target.

Did this kill covert ops as an option?

Yes, I think that the bombing in Bir el-Abed put a halt to covert operations. America doesn't deal very well with failures. It doesn't accept the failure of its operations. I think after Desert One and the failure there, there was a huge pullback. I think after the failure of the attack on Sheik Fadlallah, there was also a pullback. At that point, the American intelligence community was in a kind of despair, the feeling that they couldn't do anything right, and I think that they just backed off. ...

Why do you insist on all this off topic nonsense in almost every single post? This is not the trash America thread.

In my most humble opinion, you keep throwing in specious facts which have absolutely nothing to do with Afghanistan.

Get it?

Could you yourself UG say and claim that our governments have never committed act's of terror?

Now two commissions have said that for example the invasion of Iraq had no legal standing.

Alex:

You might read UN Resolutions 678 and 687.

Resolution 678 authorized the use of force against Iraq if they refused to withdraw from Kuwait after invading that country.

Resolution 687 was the CEASE FIRE agreement with Saddam Hussein's government after they were run out of Kuwait by the coalition forces. The cease fire laid down certain requirements that had to be met by Iraq or the original terms of Resolution 678 would come into play again. Part of those cease fire terms were to dispose of all WMDs, make reports as required to the UN Weapons Inspectors and to permit these same UN Inspectors full unfettered access to anywhere in Iraq.

Saddam failed to live up to the terms of the cease fire so any action taken against his regime was legally authorized by the UN under Resolutions 678 and 687.

A Peace Treaty was never agreed to. This should create a fire storm tomorrow.

___________________________________________

Now on to your other source concerning the attempted assassination of the good Sheikh Fadl allah. The source of your information is an author, one Jim Hougan, who has written a couple of books. The interview is filled with "I think" or "I believe" and is short of any hard facts. He is the former Editor of Harper's Magazine. You are going to have a hard time selling his credibility to me and most anybody else.

Most, if not all, of his information is speculation.

I fully agree with getting Saddam out of Kuwait at the first gulf war and I believe that is where our action stopped at that time other than some no fly zones. The second invasion is a whole different story.

The link and snip I posted was just to show there are more stories than a Wiki article, sure the CIA will never say yeah we are the ones responsible . I would recommend to read the book written by Steve Coll, Ghost Wars that will give a bit more insight on how the CIA funded an Islamic Jihad against the Soviets during their occupation of Afghanistan. How this Frankenstein was created by us that we are now fighting.

From memory it was only after the first gulf war that Islamic terrorist targeted the US and some other countries on their own soil.

(Please correct me if I am wrong).

I believe it is crucial to understand the claims of the Islamic extremists that they commit their crimes/actions as a result of some of our actions and /or foreign policy.

Therefore we need to look in the mirror and ask if we ever committed act's of terror against another country?

I know we did, do any of you?

It is only then when we the people agree that wars are not the way to solve problems that we can start building a more just society with equal chances for everyone.

What we have now are corporations and governments working together to divide us.

Definition of Terrorism

"the unlawful use of -- or threatened use of -- force or violence against individuals or property to coerce or intimidate governments or societies, often to achieve political, religious, or ideological objectives."

-- U.S. Department of Defense publication

Can we be seen as terrorists when reading the above definition?

By that definition the alleged CIA assasination attempt/bombing was not a terrorist attack.

Why do you insist on all this off topic nonsense in almost every single post? This is not the trash America thread.

For goodness sake Georgie

Have you not noticed that folks like Chuck,koheesti & Bonobo have a discussion going with Alex?

Have you not noticed America is involved in Afghanistan & that is the name of the thread?

While I am not involved with this area of the discussion I do read it & find interest in what each of these three posts in response to what Alex writes.

If you have no capacity to have an opinion other than your imbecilic one liner/clip arts at least allow those folks the ability to have a their discussion. Very exhausting having your Zero content crap posted every other post....really grow up or have another cupcake. Did your mother never tell you if you have nothing to add clam up?

You talk about off topic yet you are off from the start with Zero opinion just one liner tripe....Go back to one of you food threads where at least you have opinion/experience MAK MAK

Why do you insist on all this off topic nonsense in almost every single post? This is not the trash America thread.

For goodness sake Georgie

Have you not noticed that folks like Chuck,koheesti & Bonobo have a discussion going with Alex?

Have you not noticed America is involved in Afghanistan & that is the name of the thread?

While I am not involved with this area of the discussion I do read it & find interest in what each of these three posts in response to what Alex writes.

If you have no capacity to have an opinion other than your imbecilic one liner/clip arts at least allow those folks the ability to have a their discussion. Very exhausting having your Zero content crap posted every other post....really grow up or have another cupcake. Did your mother never tell you if you have nothing to add clam up?

You talk about off topic yet you are off from the start with Zero opinion just one liner tripe....Go back to one of you food threads where at least you have opinion/experience MAK MAK

Quite right. Shush UG.

I think you fail to see what the question is UG.

Definition of Terrorism

"the unlawful use of -- or threatened use of -- force or violence against individuals or property to coerce or intimidate governments or societies, often to achieve political, religious, or ideological objectives."

-- U.S. Department of Defense publication

Can we be seen as terrorists when reading the above definition?

Only to the delusional.

Let me get this straight, the three Horsemen of the Apocalypse don't like my posts.

They sometimes criticize folks who 'contribute" almost nothing to OTB but specious facts (which often have "absolutely nothing to do" with the topics being discussed), loony conspiracy theories and outright lies... and they are not long, boring and inaccurate enough to fit in well with their sick fantasies.

Well, sorry if I am irritating the lunatic fringe, but at least my posts are short, sweet and to the point, instead of dragging on for hours - trying to demonize the US and justify the actions of terrorists.

Here is a secret, you can be brief when are writing honestly.

I think you fail to see what the question is UG.

Definition of Terrorism

"the unlawful use of -- or threatened use of -- force or violence against individuals or property to coerce or intimidate governments or societies, often to achieve political, religious, or ideological objectives."

-- U.S. Department of Defense publication

Can we be seen as terrorists when reading the above definition?

Only to the delusional.

Short, sweet, to the point and totally accurate.

Here is a secret, you can be brief when are writing honestly.

Brief in your case is good.... since you contribute zero to the discussion.

Instead you usually say something along the lines of ....yeah...yeah ...what he said....

Or .....ah these folks are liars, terrorist, US bashers...etc etc. etc... blah...blah...blah

Or worse you now seem to be saying bonobo, chuck & koheesti is off topic because they can at least respond to Alex with a coherent thought ...

But jeez I thought you for the most part agreed/liked bonobo, chuck & koheesti....so when I see you calling off topic<sic> after they post a nice reply to Alex....well it was surprising....or not in hindsight...given your lack of substance when posting

As I said I am not involved in that section of the discussion but just thought it rude that you constantly come in with those one liner's that have no basis in what anyone is discussing. Like a spoiled child screaming for attention.

But considering your calling questions by Alex about America's involvement in Afghanistan off topic...???

None care if you want to name call & if that is the best you can do.....well..... Go with it goldie

Keep up with that clip art your getting good at pasting links....small steps are good...soon you may walk

Another long, silly, inaccurate post that attempts to twist the truth. Why am I not surprised.

I fully agree with getting Saddam out of Kuwait at the first gulf war and I believe that is where our action stopped at that time other than some no fly zones. The second invasion is a whole different story.

The link and snip I posted was just to show there are more stories than a Wiki article, sure the CIA will never say yeah we are the ones responsible . I would recommend to read the book written by Steve Coll, Ghost Wars that will give a bit more insight on how the CIA funded an Islamic Jihad against the Soviets during their occupation of Afghanistan. How this Frankenstein was created by us that we are now fighting.

From memory it was only after the first gulf war that Islamic terrorist targeted the US and some other countries on their own soil.

(Please correct me if I am wrong).

I believe it is crucial to understand the claims of the Islamic extremists that they commit their crimes/actions as a result of some of our actions and /or foreign policy.

Therefore we need to look in the mirror and ask if we ever committed act's of terror against another country?

I know we did, do any of you?

It is only then when we the people agree that wars are not the way to solve problems that we can start building a more just society with equal chances for everyone.

What we have now are corporations and governments working together to divide us.

AlexLah:

I am afraid your memory does you no favors about terrorists targeting the US on its own soil. You might want to recall the US Embassy takeover in 1979. All Embassies are sovereign property, regardless where located.

The Embassy takeover is the most memorable, but here is a link that details a few others dating back to 1972:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/AmericanAttacks.htm

I also must question your statement that the policies of the US cause the terrorist actions. Anti-Americanism is behind the terrorist actions and the origin of anti-Americanism did not originate with US support for Israel. Unfortunately I have to drive to Udorn this morning and have no time to compose my message. Let me delay the response until either later today or tomorrow. You will be surprised at the response. I'm going to blame the Communists!

PS: I like Ulysses. Keep up the good work. Pithy can be very good.

I like Ulysses. Keep up the good work. Pithy can be very good.

Thanks! For some strange reason, I seem to appeal to everyone who thinks America is not the Great Satan, but I really annoy the heck out of those zany individuals that do.

Back on topic, of course the USA has done cruel things to those that we are fighting with - that is what war is about - but at least we usually have the best of intentions - even if it does not always work out. However, just because we are not perfect is not a valid reason to excuse terrorists and terrorism.

For some strange reason, I seem to appeal to everyone who thinks America is not the Great Satan, but I really annoy the heck out of those zany individuals that do.

That sounds so.......well odd... coming from you an Expat who abandoned America long ago for what ever reason claimed.

Many perhaps think America is unpopular as you imply but, most who live HERE in the USA & try to keep her on course as laid out in our constitution & declaration.. are not those. These HERE in the USA know the difference between America and a federal government out of control in many ways....

So as much as I will agree you are annoying like a spoiled child you are not annoying for a reason such as the one you would like to claim because you do not appeal to me in the least.....Sorry but hey you are at least annoying ....

Sorry but hey you are at least annoying ....

Once more, at least I am willing to admit the truth. However, if you think that you are not, it is just one more in a long list of delusions that you have shared with us here.

By the way, why is it OK for YOU to rant and rave and ignore the topic, but not for anyone who does not agree with you? I guess that it must be because you use more than one line.

By the way, why is it OK for YOU ignore the topic,

Tuu Tong !

But isnt that a stupid question to ask someone why is it ok to go off topic when they only did so to tell you that your never on topic?

That is the problem I mentioned earlier about your low orbit...

Besides wandering aimlessly round & round...

It is like a black hole...Anyone responding to your tripe gets sucked into it.....

I guess I should mind my own recommendation that I made to Harcourt... In fact I will

I fully agree with getting Saddam out of Kuwait at the first gulf war and I believe that is where our action stopped at that time other than some no fly zones. The second invasion is a whole different story.

The link and snip I posted was just to show there are more stories than a Wiki article, sure the CIA will never say yeah we are the ones responsible . I would recommend to read the book written by Steve Coll, Ghost Wars that will give a bit more insight on how the CIA funded an Islamic Jihad against the Soviets during their occupation of Afghanistan. How this Frankenstein was created by us that we are now fighting.

From memory it was only after the first gulf war that Islamic terrorist targeted the US and some other countries on their own soil.

(Please correct me if I am wrong).

I believe it is crucial to understand the claims of the Islamic extremists that they commit their crimes/actions as a result of some of our actions and /or foreign policy.

Therefore we need to look in the mirror and ask if we ever committed act's of terror against another country?

I know we did, do any of you?

It is only then when we the people agree that wars are not the way to solve problems that we can start building a more just society with equal chances for everyone.

What we have now are corporations and governments working together to divide us.

AlexLah:

I am afraid your memory does you no favors about terrorists targeting the US on its own soil. You might want to recall the US Embassy takeover in 1979. All Embassies are sovereign property, regardless where located.

The Embassy takeover is the most memorable, but here is a link that details a few others dating back to 1972:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/AmericanAttacks.htm

I also must question your statement that the policies of the US cause the terrorist actions. Anti-Americanism is behind the terrorist actions and the origin of anti-Americanism did not originate with US support for Israel. Unfortunately I have to drive to Udorn this morning and have no time to compose my message. Let me delay the response until either later today or tomorrow. You will be surprised at the response. I'm going to blame the Communists!

PS: I like Ulysses. Keep up the good work. Pithy can be very good.

Pithy can be good, I agree....How does that relate to UG? "Pithy" has connotations of being meaningfull.

It will be interesting to read your ideas about the origins of anti-Americanism.

Regardless of your theory of the origins, though, America's support for the criminal Israel certainly perpetuates the anti sentiments....along with America's habit of having armed forces in Islamic countries (Somalia, for example)....to name but a couple of the ongoing reasons.

As for your rebuttal of Alex's comment about American soil....yes, technically and (as usual) pedantically you are correct, but that was not his meaning, I'm sure. I think it is plain to most readers here (except the liars and the blinkered) that his meaning, in the context of what he was writing, was the contiguous United States (plus Alaska and Hawaii); American soil.

But isnt that a stupid question to ask someone why is it ok to go off topic when they only did so to tell you that your never on topic?

It is always someone else's fault.

Let's have some honesty here. You don't like me or my posts because they point out how silly, dishonest and off topic you and your comrade's posts usually are. You never mention a word about naam's constant, baseless one line insults or Harcourt's endless, longwinded tripe, but first you accuse venturalaw - one of TV's most articulate, informed posters and someone that you don't agree with - of frivolous posting and then you start in on me.

In fact, you never criticize anyone on "your side" no matter what they say. You aren't fooling anyone.

But isnt that a stupid question to ask someone why is it ok to go off topic when they only did so to tell you that your never on topic?

It is always someone else's fault.

Let's have some honesty here. You don't like me or my posts because they point out how silly, dishonest and off topic you and your comrade's posts usually are. You never mention a word about naam's constant, baseless one line insults or Harcourt's endless, longwinded tripe, but first you accuse venturalaw - one of TV's most articulate, informed posters and someone that you don't agree with - of frivolous posting and then you start in on me.

In fact, you never criticize anyone on "your side" no matter what they say. You aren't fooling anyone.

Thats a case of the cast iron pot calling the stainless steel kettle black. YOU will agree with your cohorts no matter what they say.

You never mention a word about naam's constant, baseless one line insults or Harcourt's endless, longwinded tripe, but first you accuse venturalaw - one of TV's most articulate, informed posters and someone that you don't agree with - of frivolous posting and then you start in on me.

In fact, you never criticize anyone on "your side" no matter what they say. You aren't fooling anyone.

Hahah

Lord help me I am being sucked into your orbit one last time ok?

I will not try to shine any further light on your delusions. They are after all yours alone...

But let me get this straight.... Anyone who chastises your lack of substance is on *my*side?

Gee your very school yard aren't you Georgie ?

Why would I get in the middle of any of your many little tantrums with those folks you mentioned? You need help?

As for your claim of VL's question to me & my response....Go back & read it again save us both some time....

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Afghanistan-...10#entry3438610

Take Care

Hahah

You keep claiming that you are going to stop replying to me, but you keep on doing so. That reminds me of your posts. It seems that dishonesty is a rather hard habit to break.

There's only 2 liars in this forum, one proven (chuckd) and one who can't credibly deny it (UG).

Again, a case of the cast iron pot calling the stainless steel kettle black.

[As for your claim of VL's question to me & my response....Go back & read it again

In other words, the U.S. looked upon 9/11 as an opportunity,

You say..... I just want to understand your position.

I do not think you really care to "understand" any position other than your own.

And that is fine but I see no point in arguing. Reading your posts of recent days that is all I see....arguing over minutia.

I stated an opinion & it was very clear... If it was not clear enough...Twist it into what you like.

You sound rather paranoid. I state what I believe and mean what I say.

When I find one with a position completely adverse to my own, I want to try to understand them - to clear away any potential misunderstanding on my part.

Apology accepted.

Yeah, I did.

For some strange reason, I seem to appeal to everyone who thinks America is not the Great Satan, but I really annoy the heck out of those zany individuals that do.

That sounds so.......well odd... coming from you an Expat who abandoned America long ago for what ever reason claimed.

Do you believe that a citizen of a country other than Thailand, who chooses to live in Thailand, has "abandoned" their country? Do you have information that UG renounced his citizenship? Has he pledged his allegiance to another nation? I haven't read anything of the sort. In fact, UG vigorously defends America against posters who appear to be focused on demonizing not only America, but Americans. Why is this problematic for you?

At the grave risk of keeping this thread off-topic, I have to comment on this "my side-your side" thing.

I personally am not on UG's side, for example.  I just happen to agree with him on the subject of Afghanistan more than I agree with Harcourt or AlexLah, and I think his arguments have been more logical.  Venturalaw's arguments certainly have been more logical, in my opinion.

I have disagreed with UG on Israel/Palestine, (although I wouldn't color my posts by referring to Israel as "criminal Israel" as Harcourt has.)  I think I have disagreed with him on environmental issues, too.  Probably Iraq as I seem to disagree with everyone on that.   I have disagreed with koheesti in posts. So I have to point out that I am not a "cohort" of anyone, as was inferred.

On this one issue, I have agreed with many more of UG's, venturalaw's. chuckd's, and koheesti's posts that those of naam, Harcourt, Alexlah, and Flying. 

It is the facts of the issues which matter to me, not on which "side" on which I am supposed to be.

For some strange reason, I seem to appeal to everyone who thinks America is not the Great Satan, but I really annoy the heck out of those zany individuals that do.

That sounds so.......well odd... coming from you an Expat who abandoned America long ago for what ever reason claimed.

Many perhaps think America is unpopular as you imply but, most who live HERE in the USA & try to keep her on course as laid out in our constitution & declaration.. are not those. These HERE in the USA know the difference between America and a federal government out of control in many ways....

I've been an expat for almost 16 years. When someone asks, "Why did you leave America? Don't you love your country?" I ask them, "Why did you move away from your parents? Don't you love them?". However, while I love my country, not everyone I asked felt the same about their parents.

Why is this problematic for you?

It is not problematic per se' for me...

But it is as I said before a boy with his mouth full of Som Tom trying to tell folks how American Pie tastes...

Or one who is too fat to play football calling plays from his armchair & claiming to be the heroic quarterback

Doesn't work since it is in fact fantasy that exists only in Georgies mind.