Expat Bashing From Your Home Country?

[jackspratt]

I hate to be a stick-in-the-mud, but how is this even remotely related to Thailand?

ps I haven't read page 2, in case the same question was asked there.

[thaihome]

yes in the past benefits such as childrens tuition, car, rent etc... the typical benefits that come with over seas assignments were not taxed but the new admin is now considering these benefits income hence people who would normaly want to work in places with high running cost such as singapore want no longer want to and the expats who are already working their are being hit with a whole new tax hike. This is just another example of how the obama admin has it's claws out for the working people who do what they can to live an above average life style.

Completly false. All the allowances you speak of have always been taxable (at least in the 15 years I have worked overseas), both in the US and in the country where you are assigned and paying tax.

TH

[wamberal]

Compare JFK's "Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty.” How different is that, actually, than George Bush's policy in Iraq? How successful are we going to ultimately be in Iraq, as compared to the Kennedy/LBJ war in Vietnam? Yet, look how differently Kennedy's message is perceived to be than George Bush's message.

I am not an American, I am an Australian. I hope that I have the right to post on this thread, particularly on this post, given that Australia wholeheartedly supported American endeavours in both Vietnam and Iraq.

For starters, JFK did not go into Vietnam on the basis of a lie. (LBJ escalated the war on the basis of a lie, but that is a different story). In retrospect, it might have been better to allow the communists to take over the whole country, as they would have if the US had not intervened. However, what effect that victory might have had in later conflicts and negotiations is not clear. I suspect if you ask the average Thai (who is old enough to remember) whether they are happy that the US intervened in Vietnam, the answer would be an unqualified "yes". At least the Yanks bought time, and put a high price on a communist takeover.

After 9/11, the US had huge reservoirs of goodwill, all around the world. Whether or not muslims in your own country condemned 9/11, a vast majority of the world's population did, openly and emotionally.

And what did Bush do? Invaded Iraq on a false pretext, without sufficient troops, and without any clear strategy - other than deposing Saddam, and of course, upending his statue for the world press to record. Allowed the disbanding of the existing security forces which meant that hundreds of thousands of armed, trained, combatants were thrown onto the streets without any sort of financial support. Stood by while precious and irreplaceable civilian treasures were openly looted. Did not show the slightest comprehension of the rifts in Islam, even the basic and important Shia/Shiite rift between Iraq and Iran. And, like a little tin soldier, claimed "Mission Accomplished". Many hundreds of billions of US dollars later, not to mention hundreds of thousands of civilian and combat lives, we are still there.

As to which conflict will come to the better conclusion, no doubt the people of Vietnam and Iraq will suffer for generations. Perhaps neither of them will be better off.

I declare it a dishonourable draw, but cannot blame JFK. If he had lived, perhaps he would have had the sense not to escalate the conflict.

[Meridian007]

I think the nationalism of a country must be looked at in relation to its level and its flavour. I read an interesting article a while ago which posits that nationalism in the U.S. is a form of messianism. It's related to their history, and actually does have a fundamentalist aspect to it.

This might explain the "rabid nationalism" that people from many other countries ascribe to the "patriotism" of many Americans. It's not that the level of nationalism is different from other countries, it's the drive behind it that creates this particular "flavour" that lends itself to evangelism. People who are influenced by this cannot comprehend the idea of anyone not wanting to be "American", and believe that any resistance to American democratic capitalism is a sure sign of insanity or at best, ignorance.

This might be the source of of the Huckabee speech (I'll admit that I haven't seen it, I'm going on JingThing's description), and his implication that anyone who chooses not to live in the great United States must be subversive, and possibly a "terrorist"!

Perception (and by extension, socialization) can be a dangerous thing when it stops us from having the ability to comprehend other points of view, or be empathetic towards them.

(The article was about liberal developmentalism, as has been seen since the de-colonization of states after the second World War until today. The concept of messianism was originally defined in another article, but is referenced and its effects are shown in the one that I read. I found a PDF of it here if you want to read it: Thomas McCarthy, "From Modernism to Messianism" )

Edited November 4, 2009 by Meridian007

[Jingthing]

Some clarification. Huckabee was most certainly not talking about foreign expats in the US complaining about the flag at the gym. He was clearly talking about American citizens, that if they exercise their freedom to protest and say they would rather not stare at a big flag while they work out (or in my example, on the toilet) they should be invited to leave the country on a one way ticket. In his rant, he also invoked God, and how God has anything to do with the issue of flags at the gym and the freedom to complain about them is beyond me. Huckabee may not be a demagogue but this particular rant was definitely the type of message politic demagogues project (based on its use of nationalism):

Nationalism

Last but not least, demagogues promote nationalism. Nationalism is best understood in contrast to patriotism. Whereas patriotism is simply love for one's country and institutions, nationalism is the sense that one's nation is the best, often because it is more sacred than other countries. (Because you can't have two "best" countries, the achievements of other countries and cultures have to be denigrated.) Nationalism is love for one's country plus contempt for other countries mixed with worshipping the symbols of one's nation.

Patriotism is often the result of pride in specific achievements, so it is perfectly compatible with vigorous criticism (that is, there is nothing unpatriotic about criticizing one's country),but nationalism is grounded in total loyalty to some perceived (or projected?) essence of the national identity, and therefore cannot tolerate criticism.

Nationalism is not just attachment to one's nation-state, but to some mythic essence of that identity, so that some ingroup represents the nation and other citizens do not. (In other words, membership in the nation-state is determined legally—you're a member if you're a citizen, but for the mythic dream-state of nationalism, one must be a member of some ingroup, generally a particular ethnicity.) Whereas patriotism strives for fairly practical things (e.g., effective policies, social security, a healthy economy, a just government), nationalism strives, first and foremost, for homogeneity.

http://www.drw.utexas.edu/roberts-miller/h...uts/demagoguery

Edited November 4, 2009 by Jingthing

[Ulysses G.]

I am not a Huckabee fan, but, as walt said, suggesting that he is any kind of a demagogue, says a lot more about your own politics than his.

[Jingthing]

I am not a Huckabee fan, but, as walt said, suggesting that he is any kind of a demagogue, says a lot more about your own politics than his.

UG, as I have not studied Huckabee'e entire poltical career, I have limited the charge of demagogue to the hyper nationalistic flag in the gym rant (if you don't want it, leave the country), and provided support for that charge.

However, I am certainly not the only one who sees demagoguery in Huckabee:

Governor Huckabee is an ignorant demagogue driven by his view of Christian dogma (don't howl, I am a Christian too) who obviously intends to apply his reading of the Bible to government.

http://www.nowpublic.com/opinions/mike-huc...ly-gone-too-far

Edited November 4, 2009 by Jingthing

[beechguy]

So why is it you criticize Fox News for distorting the truth, then you do the same thing by misrepresenting what Mr. Huckabee said? Seems pretty hypocritical to me.

I didn't see any mention of expats being called unpatriotic. Is it possible that part got edited? I did notice that part of the criticism of the flag display that he reported, was that some felt it may be construed as a Christian symbol. So, what's wrong with freedom of speech, and if the customers didn't like it, they had the freedom to leave and take their business elsewhere.

Edited November 4, 2009 by beechguy

[Jingthing]

Suggesting people leave the country because they don't like the flag decorations at a gym or in their toilets, is simply outrageous. It is something you might expect from some hot headed posters on an internet forum, not a man with a serious chance of being the US president. I don't know the contract situation at that gym, so if they have prepaid a plan, there are other issues than simply walking away. Of course, they have the freedom to walk away, but they also have the freedom to complain, without being called a waste of space in the country by a politician trying to advance his political career based on knee jerk nationalism.

Edited November 4, 2009 by Jingthing

[maccaroni man]

yes in the past benefits such as childrens tuition, car, rent etc... the typical benefits that come with over seas assignments were not taxed but the new admin is now considering these benefits income hence people who would normaly want to work in places with high running cost such as singapore want no longer want to and the expats who are already working their are being hit with a whole new tax hike. This is just another example of how the obama admin has it's claws out for the working people who do what they can to live an above average life style.

Completly false. All the allowances you speak of have always been taxable (at least in the 15 years I have worked overseas), both in the US and in the country where you are assigned and paying tax.

TH

'A last-minute amendment attached to the bill has curtailed — and for some expatriates, effectively eliminated — Section 911 benefits, which allow US workers abroad to protect a portion of their overseas compensation from being hit by a second layer of taxation by the Internal Revenue Service. (Overseas Americans must pay all applicable taxes to the government of the country where they live and work, just as foreigners who live and work in the US pay tax to the IRS). The amendment retroactively increases the total allowable foreign-earned-income exclusions from $80,000 to 82,400. But this limit now includes housing benefits (which were previously separate from income exclusions) , and also requires expatriates to stack their residual income on top of the excluded amount before determining the rate at which they ought to pay taxes. Both these changes will lead to significant tax increases for many overseas Americans.'

[beechguy]

Suggesting people leave the country because they don't like the flag decorations at a gym or in their toilets, is simply outrageous. It is something you might expect from some hot headed posters on an internet forum, not a man with a serious chance of being the US president. I don't know the contract situation at that gym, so if they have prepaid a plan, there are other issues than simply walking away. Of course, they have the freedom to walk away, but they also have the freedom to complain, without being called a waste of space in the country by a demagogue trying to advance his political career based on knee jerk nationalism.

Still, does this make it ok for you to misrepresent the facts? Where was the expat bashing per the topic title? Where did he say expats were unpatriotic?

Sure people have a right to complain, Huckabee also has a right to express his opinion, just as you do. I just think it would be better if it was based on fact.

Edited November 4, 2009 by beechguy

[Jingthing]

I already explained my reasoning in the implied non-patriotism of expats which I read from the politics of the Huckabee rant. I have already explained that many Americans do in fact consider voluntary expats to not be as patriotic as stay at home ones (I consider this a fact). The Huckabee rant example was intended as a starting off point to discuss this issue as it relates to expats in general in Thailand, from different countries. How many times do I need to explain this?

BTW, I would never ask Huckabee or his supporters to leave the country if they don't wish to based on their opinions about the decorations in a gym or in toilets. He did that, and it was outrageous.

The reason I keep bringing up toilets is that if I joined a private club and then later during my membership they installed large American flags in the toilet stalls, I can well imagine I would complain about that, and I wouldn't consider it reasonable to be called anti-American or asked to leave the country against my free will for doing so. Those who didn't want to see the big flag while working out did the exact same kind of thing, they found the flag inappropriate in that setting.

Edited November 4, 2009 by Jingthing

[GarryP]

If you don't like it get out, so by analogy those who have left, don't like it and thus are unpatriotic. Missing some logic but the inferrence is there.

Simply put, if you left your home country to live elsewhere, what would your compatriots think of you? Good on you, you unpatriotic bast*rd, I'm jealous, etc.

[Jingthing]

If you don't like it get out, so by analogy those who have left, don't like it and thus are unpatriotic. Missing some logic but the inferrence is there.

Simply put, if you left your home country to live elsewhere, what would your compatriots think of you? Good on you, you unpatriotic bast*rd, I'm jealous, etc.

That is correct. He did not explicitly state this, but the meaning was implied, and I used that obvious implication with the intention to start a discussion about the issue of the patriotism of expats in general. Even if you disagree that is reasonable to imply the meaning that I did from Huckabee, that doesn't mean the general topic isn't a valid one.

Edited November 4, 2009 by Jingthing

[Ulysses G.]

If you don't like it get out, so by analogy those who have left, don't like it and thus are unpatriotic.

That is not what he said or meant. You are putting words in his mouth!

[thaihome]

yes in the past benefits such as childrens tuition, car, rent etc... the typical benefits that come with over seas assignments were not taxed but the new admin is now considering these benefits income hence people who would normaly want to work in places with high running cost such as singapore want no longer want to and the expats who are already working their are being hit with a whole new tax hike. This is just another example of how the obama admin has it's claws out for the working people who do what they can to live an above average life style.

Completly false. All the allowances you speak of have always been taxable (at least in the 15 years I have worked overseas), both in the US and in the country where you are assigned and paying tax.

TH

'A last-minute amendment attached to the bill has curtailed — and for some expatriates, effectively eliminated — Section 911 benefits, which allow US workers abroad to protect a portion of their overseas compensation from being hit by a second layer of taxation by the Internal Revenue Service. (Overseas Americans must pay all applicable taxes to the government of the country where they live and work, just as foreigners who live and work in the US pay tax to the IRS). The amendment retroactively increases the total allowable foreign-earned-income exclusions from $80,000 to 82,400. But this limit now includes housing benefits (which were previously separate from income exclusions) , and also requires expatriates to stack their residual income on top of the excluded amount before determining the rate at which they ought to pay taxes. Both these changes will lead to significant tax increases for many overseas Americans.'

Ah, so now you are getting accurate. You said "childrens tuition, car, rent etc..."" did not use to be taxable income and now it is. That was not true. If you had said they put caps on amount of housing allowance you could exclude, then you would have been accurate. Instead you put on a bit of hyperbole to try and reinforce a ridiculous notion that this tax change was done because expats are somehow not patriotic because they live outside the US.

It is worth noting the at the same time they did this, they also removed the cap on using Foreign Tax credits to offset any amount due to Alternate Minimum Tax (AMT). What this means is that for people living in higher tax countries, such as Thailand, you still don’t end up paying any US tax.

TH

[Jingthing]

I really think the US taxation issues belong in the Jobs/economy forum as a totally separate topic.

[bendejo]

I don't agree with you at all about patriotism.

I'm referring to people who overdo it.

There was a story a few years ago about this guy in the US who was getting conned by the Nigerians in one of those infamous scams, to the point where he became an embezzler to send more $ to Nigeria. Ok, I've established the intelligence of the guy.

This guy had patriotic slogans and emblems on everything, even the bathrobe he wore around the house, and would appear in court wearing big buttons saying "Support our boys in Iraq" according to the reporter who did the write up. It didn't help, he still got locked up.

The French writer Celine sympathized with the Nazis during WWII because he felt France didn't stand a chance. After the war when they came to arrest him he kept exclaiming "vive le France" because, he said, how can they possibly arrest you for treason while you're doing so? Well, they did, but he still was able to get a multi-book deal.

A great cynic, though I'm glad I never met him.

I have the feeling that Beck may actually be as dumb as his audience. Limbaugh may be a turd but he's not stupid. Hannity knows he's being an idiot but also knows what butters his bread (same as Stern). They say Van Sustern has a husband -- <deleted>?

[beechguy]

If you don't like it get out, so by analogy those who have left, don't like it and thus are unpatriotic. Missing some logic but the inferrence is there.

Simply put, if you left your home country to live elsewhere, what would your compatriots think of you? Good on you, you unpatriotic bast*rd, I'm jealous, etc.

That is correct. He did not explicitly state this, but the meaning was implied, and I used that obvious implication with the intention to start a discussion about the issue of the patriotism of expats in general. Even if you disagree that is reasonable to imply the meaning that I did from Huckabee, that doesn't mean the general topic isn't a valid one.

I agree, it may be a valid question to ask about attitudes concerning nationalism/patriotism in regards to other expats and their home countries. But, I and apparently several others, do not agree with your interpretation of what Mr. Huckabee stated. So, yes you have your opinion, I just can't agree that it's factual.

[Jingthing]

There is no such thing as fact when making subjective interpretations of a political speech. It is always subjective.

[OriginalPoster]

yes in the past benefits such as childrens tuition, car, rent etc... the typical benefits that come with over seas assignments were not taxed but the new admin is now considering these benefits income hence people who would normaly want to work in places with high running cost such as singapore want no longer want to and the expats who are already working their are being hit with a whole new tax hike. This is just another example of how the obama admin has it's claws out for the working people who do what they can to live an above average life style.

Completly false. All the allowances you speak of have always been taxable (at least in the 15 years I have worked overseas), both in the US and in the country where you are assigned and paying tax.

TH

'A last-minute amendment attached to the bill has curtailed — and for some expatriates, effectively eliminated — Section 911 benefits, which allow US workers abroad to protect a portion of their overseas compensation from being hit by a second layer of taxation by the Internal Revenue Service. (Overseas Americans must pay all applicable taxes to the government of the country where they live and work, just as foreigners who live and work in the US pay tax to the IRS). The amendment retroactively increases the total allowable foreign-earned-income exclusions from $80,000 to 82,400. But this limit now includes housing benefits (which were previously separate from income exclusions) , and also requires expatriates to stack their residual income on top of the excluded amount before determining the rate at which they ought to pay taxes. Both these changes will lead to significant tax increases for many overseas Americans.'

That block of text that you quoted without attribution was written in 2006 and is commentary about the Tax Increase Prevention and Reconciliation Act of 2005. Hence it has nothing to do with the Obama administration being out to gouge expats. Expats in the $80K+ annual income range did in fact have their marginal tax rate go way up overnight back then - courtesy of the Bush administration. The damage wasn't primarily done by increased taxation on benefits, it was by making earning above $80K tabable at the same rate that they would be if the whole amount had been earned in the US, rather than at the rate that would apply if the taxpayers only income was that money over $80K. For many that represented a sudden increase of taxation of thousands of dollars, and it was ramrodded though with almost no debate.

[ignoramus]

Can't add any thoughtful comment. Not too sure if this has been about nationalism, jingoism or taxes. The thing that struck me most forcibly (shows how shallow I am) is the flag in the toilet stall. Laughable. And pathetic.

[Rumfoord]

aren't you just pissed off that the right winger are the same patriots like the patriot you are? (they just don't get it right and you don't like them.)

but there is actually no difference between you and them, you are same same.

right winger or obama supporter, over-enthusiastic flag waving or not, all of them love their country and are addicted to the same TV show: "The President and his dog". from time to time they switch the TV channel where the show will be hosted, selected by public vote, and also the leading actor in that show can get exchanged. meanwhile the two main candidates looking for outsiders nearly the same, hard to tell the difference (think pepsi vs. coke, or Carringtons (Dynasty) vs. Ewings(Dallas)) their respective supporters bitch and slur each other as 'commie' or 'KKK.', silly. they all are right wingers, even if one group declare themselves as 'liberals'. it is a fallacy to assume that would change a lot or make a big difference.

US-american hubris is a trait that is common for all US-americans. and that is a phenomenon that you cannot find in this extreme in other Nations.

to get the proof for that and also answer your question make a probe, here on TVforum, the webboard for an international expat community, members from all over the world, from many different countries.

now check, how many of them open a topic about the domestic political issues back in their home country, praising us their Prime Minister or telling us stories about what they watched last night in the domestic TV channel that runs the propaganda for the opposition, and than bitch about that opposition Channel and claiming to be smarter than FOX news?

you see that from French, Irish, Mexican, Canadian, Brasilian, Spaniards, Italian, Russian, Japanese, Swedes, Poles, Egyptian and so on?

during the bush years, i met many US-Americans who said: we are so sorry, please accept our apologies for double-u bush. i said, no reason the say sorry, we can keep politics out, left nationalism behind us, we met here abroad, we are out to explore the world to learn about other cultures, to learn new languages, i know Hannah Arendt's praise for the American constitution and i know there are many US-Americans that are not like Bush.

but now things have changed and i understand their 'i am sorry' better. they pity themselves that they could not brag about the USofA, for obvious reasons. now the idea that the USofA is the leading nation and destined to spread its unique gifts of democracy all over the world is back. the do-betters singing the same song, the same old melody. "California Über Alles 21. century reprise". there wasn't so much change at all.

"The highest treason in the USA is to say Americans are not loved, no matter where they are, no matter what they are doing there." Kurt Vonnegut in A Man Without a Country. (2005).

and that is exactly your issue here.

[Ulysses G.]

to get the proof for that and also answer your question make a probe, here on TVforum, the webboard for an international expat community, members from all over the world, from many different countries.

now check, how many of them open a topic about the domestic political issues back in their home country, praising us their Prime Minister or telling us stories about what they watched last night in the domestic TV channel that runs the propaganda for the opposition, and than bitch about that opposition Channel and claiming to be smarter than FOX news?

you see that from French, Irish, Mexican, Canadian, Brasilian, Spaniards, Italian, Russian, Japanese, Swedes, Poles, Egyptian and so on?

No, but many of these members from all over the world might very well start a thread about American politics or Barack Obama even though they would not start one about their own country.

That is because, at the moment, what happens in the the U.S. is important to the whole world just like back when England used to rule the world and the waves.

Some people like America and some rather have China or Russia in charge and someday they may get their wish, but bitching about people's interest in the U.S. just makes one look the fool. There is a reason that they call the American President the leader of the free world - that is pretty much what he is whether you like it, or not.

[Jingthing]

"The highest treason in the USA is to say Americans are not loved, no matter where they are, no matter what they are doing there." Kurt Vonnegut in A Man Without a Country. (2005).

and that is exactly your issue here.

Actually, I can say with full confidence that is most definitely NOT what this topic is about. At all! Next ...

[mahtin]

Certainly Brit expats in Thailand are discriminated against by the Vaterland.

They freeze our pensions.

[Jingthing]

Here's a twist. Barack Obama's brother (Mark Okoth Obama Ndesandjo) is a US expat in China. I bet you almost nobody knew that.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...9110401214.html

Ndesandjo bears a striking resemblance to Barack Obama -- lean, with a similar face. This is what America's 44th president would look like if he shaved his head, wore a bandana, favored black T-shirts and sported an earring in his left ear.

Edited November 4, 2009 by Jingthing

[BobMarleyWannabe]

Here is a link to this Jing bashing. If you slow it down you can actually hear him say "JingThing is a commie" "JingThing is a commie".

http://www.foxnews.com/video/index.html?pl...listId=playlist

Thanks for the link.

What is it with US politics and religion? He keeps inferring Obama has no belief. In the UK this would be seen as intrusive really.

I mean slate his sex life or his policies but his religion is no ones business but his.

Do US voters care about this stuff?

Every time I am in Thailand and do a hotel stay I always hope they have CNN instead of FOX being carried by the service provider. Sorry to take this a bit off track but let me rant about the American new media. The news media in America pretty much sucks. Most the big news networks are owned by corporate interest who would never report news that would in anyway jeoperdize their own interest. NPR is OK but they do not always do fact checking so some of their stories may not always be true to fact. FOX is the worst, complete bias in reporting and they cross the line of journalism. FOX not only reports the news but they create it as well. FOX has in the past promoted political events and then had its staff members attend such events not to report the activities but to be speakers or supporters of the event. FOX is a really a political organization. About the best we have in America is the Public broadcasting system but they do not have all the bells and whistles to keep ones interest I mean how can you compete with FOX news while the newscaster is off on a rant, in the video monitor in the background there are images of half nud_e girls on the beach posing in provacative poses, now this is kind of journalism that brings ratings, and thats what it is all about.

[Rumfoord]

"The highest treason in the USA is to say Americans are not loved, no matter where they are, no matter what they are doing there." Kurt Vonnegut in A Man Without a Country. (2005).

and that is exactly your issue here.

Actually, I can say with full confidence that is most definitely NOT what this topic is about. At all! Next ...

erm, isn't that your point and defence line against a 'false accusation'? the question about to love America or not.

according to you this patriot at the FOX channel rant about US-Americans who had left the country, "demonize people who leave America as the most heinous kind of unpatriotic types. " accuse them not be the wholehearted patriots, not to love their country, be unpatriotic. right, that is your problem?

you get agited and rant against FOX, because such statement is untrue, you totally burst out of full love for your country. right?

"Leaving doesn't usually mean we are more or less patriotic than our less adventurous brothers who stay home and it doesn't always mean we won't be back someday."

your defense and argument is that you not hate America, like falsely accused by nationalistic dimwits.

somewhat said to you: 'hey jingthong, you left america with a one way ticket, so i must assume you don't love our great nation' you could give a sh*t about, but being an American like in the Vonnegut quote above you go crazy, because he accused you of what you see yourself as the worst offence - not to love US-America.

and now you diss me, because i obviously not love the silly way like you and other us-americans love their country.

[Ulysses G.]

PBC, biased and boring but good. FOX, all the bells and whistles, but bad.

Tell us more oh great wise one. Please inform us about the crimes that McDonald's commits!