Prime Minister Abhisit's New Year Message

[Publicus]

I wonder if anyone could cite a source for that oft stated phrase that the junta passed a law forbidding criticism of the charter draft. I don't recall reading about that - ever, and would apprecaite a source to satisfy my curiosity.

It's a complicated business, but the following may prove helpful:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/07/06...cs_30039559.php

http://us.asiancorrespondent.com/bangkok-p...ft-charter.html

http://www.prachatai.com/english/node/71

At the time of their writing, The Nation, Bangkok Pundit and Prachatai were expressing concerns about the proposals contained in the bill - before it was passed. It then was passed and promulgated on August 2nd:

"Act on Orderly Conduct of Referendum on Draft Constitution, B.E 2550 (2007)

Section 10

Any person commits the following acts:

...........

(3) To deceive, coerce, threaten, or influence eligible voters not to exercise their voting rights, to vote one way or another, or to abstain from voting;

...........

Any person committing offence as in..... (3)...... shall be liable to imprisonment for a term of not exceeding 10 years and a fine of 200,000 baht......... The court may also order disfranchisement for a period of not exceeding 5 years."

[my bold emphasis]

http://thailaws.com/law/t_laws/tlaw0415.pdf

I wasn't the only person in Thailand who saw pickup trucks on the busy thoroughfares of Bangkok with big signs on them with the word "NO" and hearing people in the pickups using sound systems to speak against the coup's proposed constitution. The "NO" pickups were out daily throughout the day for more than a couple of weeks before the referendum vote.

Law or no law. 

[LaoPo]

Anyone saying the current PM was put in place by the military coup is up a creek without a paddle.

Correct; He wasn't put in place by the military coup.

He's allowed and tolerated by the military as long as he does what they want.

LaoPo

[beammeup]

I wonder if anyone could cite a source for that oft stated phrase that the junta passed a law forbidding criticism of the charter draft. I don't recall reading about that - ever, and would apprecaite a source to satisfy my curiosity.

It's a complicated business, but the following may prove helpful:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/07/06...cs_30039559.php

http://us.asiancorrespondent.com/bangkok-p...ft-charter.html

http://www.prachatai.com/english/node/71

At the time of their writing, The Nation, Bangkok Pundit and Prachatai were expressing concerns about the proposals contained in the bill - before it was passed. It then was passed and promulgated on August 2nd:

"Act on Orderly Conduct of Referendum on Draft Constitution, B.E 2550 (2007)

Section 10

Any person commits the following acts:

...........

(3) To deceive, coerce, threaten, or influence eligible voters not to exercise their voting rights, to vote one way or another, or to abstain from voting;

...........

Any person committing offence as in..... (3)...... shall be liable to imprisonment for a term of not exceeding 10 years and a fine of 200,000 baht......... The court may also order disfranchisement for a period of not exceeding 5 years."

[my bold emphasis]

http://thailaws.com/law/t_laws/tlaw0415.pdf

This doesn't look like a law forbidding criticism. It looks more like a law ment to stop vote buying. So I guess thats why Mr Money bags couldnt buy a no vote.

[brahmburgers]

Anyone saying the current PM was put in place by the military coup is up a creek without a paddle.

Correct; He wasn't put in place by the military coup.

He's allowed and tolerated by the military as long as he does what they want.

Thailand is heavily affected by the same sort of syndrome which most countries are afflicted with: It has a military that over-influences government people and its policies.

As much as anything else, the military is a bunch of (mostly) men who are trained to protect their country and kill/disable any forces that threaten it or the country they're protecting. They also have all the heavy weapons and most of the smaller weapons. So, regardless of whether there are laws which mention "separation of powers, etc" or "the military serves the legislature and/or the citizens" - the military has the ultimate strength. ...and it uses it more often than we'd like to see. That's why nearly all Latin American and African countries, as well as most of the rest of the world is beholden to what their military bosses want. Thailand is also in that group - to the extent that even Police chiefs are acting like bellicose big shots like the military brass.

Abhisit has shown trepidation to stand up to his military and police big shots in the past year, but I detect a slight strengthening of the PM's attitude. In other words, it appears he might have the willingness & ability to cull out some of the bad wood in the military/police within the next year, but it will be a slow and painful process. Plus, Thaksin, who earlier appointed most of the bad generals and police chiefs still in power, will do all he can to thwart Abhisit's efforts at cleaning up those forces. Thailand could do well to have a military which takes orders from the legislature, but it's still quite a ways off from that ideal.

Edited January 2, 2010 by brahmburgers

[LaoPo]

Anyone saying the current PM was put in place by the military coup is up a creek without a paddle.

Correct; He wasn't put in place by the military coup.

He's allowed and tolerated by the military as long as he does what they want.

Thailand is heavily affected by the same sort of syndrome which most countries are afflicted with: It has a military that over-influences government people and its policies.

As much as anything else, the military is a bunch of (mostly) men who are trained to protect their country and kill/disable any forces that threaten it or the country they're protecting. They also have all the heavy weapons and most of the smaller weapons. So, regardless of whether there are laws which mention "separation of powers, etc" or "the military serves the legislature and/or the citizens" - the military has the ultimate strength. ...and it uses it more often than we'd like to see. That's why nearly all Latin American and African countries, as well as most of the rest of the world is beholden to what their military bosses want. Thailand is also in that group - to the extent that even Police chiefs are acting like bellicose big shots like the military brass.

Abhisit has shown trepidation to stand up to his military and police big shots in the past year, but I detect a slight strengthening of the PM's attitude. In other words, it appears he might have the willingness & ability to cull out some of the bad wood in the military/police within the next year, but it will be a slow and painful process. Plus, Thaksin, who earlier appointed most of the bad generals and police chiefs still in power, will do all he can to thwart Abhisit's efforts at cleaning up those forces. Thailand could do well to have a military which takes orders from the legislature, but it's still quite a ways off from that ideal.

I agree with most of what you just said.

The word "democracy" doesn't, by far yet, belong in Thai vocabulary.

As long as the military do NOT listen and obey to the democratically elected government, Thailand will not be considered a democracy.

As long as there is (even slightly) a threat of a possible coup, there's no democracy in Thailand.

We've heard too many times that there will be no more coups, mostly expressed by a general

In a real democracy the government would gag the same general immediately and he would most likely be stripped of his stars.

Thailand is still a "banana republic" when it comes to democracy.

LaoPo

[sharecropper]

We've heard too many times that there will be no more coups, mostly expressed by a general

In a real democracy the government would gag the same general immediately and he would most likely be stripped of his stars.

In a similar vein, what happened to that senior military officer who deserted his post to go and glad-hand Thaksin in Cambodia?

[Roadman]

The way he got to power sucked.

But that he is still there, the country is settled, the Thaksin hard core are getting bored, and the military is not considering a coup in 2010 (well only to some fortune teller ) are all good for Thailand.

There will be a chance for all in the next elections, but by then Ashibit may have done enough by just keeping things settled that he will get the votes his government needs. Do it that way with the Thai majority and the military may fall into line.

Good luck to the guy.

Edited January 2, 2010 by Roadman

[animatic]

While with anything in paternalistic Asia has the potential for abuse,

this law is pretty clear.

Act on Orderly Conduct of Referendum on Draft Constitution, B.E 2550 (2007)

Section 10

Any person commits the following acts:

...........

(3) To deceive, coerce, threaten, or influence eligible voters

not to exercise their voting rights, to vote one way or another, or to abstain from voting;

Did this go as draconian as some worried.

Not that I ever heard.

Did people get out and hold up NO posters and complain endlessly about the Draft C.

Yes they did, but it was kept 'Orderly'.

We know the opposing side has a propensity for actual violence,

See any number of violent incidents North Of Bangkok against dissenting voices,

from beatings to murders.

So putting in place a law to make it orderly is not unreasonable.

It didn't stop free speech as feared, but did stop violence from becoming common place.

[mca]

I'd really like it explained to a simpleton such as I why the Dems weren't found guilty of vote buying and influencing votes (as per Thai law) leading to the party being disbanded as happened to Thaksin's crew. I'm certainly no Thaksin apologist. What an odious man he is but it'd certainly be nice to have a level playing field.

[RustyYellowDodge]

Because as I understand it, the party disbandment is the result of a party executive being involved in fraud. So far no cases involving Democrat party executives have been presented, or any cases presented were offered by the PT Party, who don't seem to know much about hte law in Thailand.

[brahmburgers]

I'd really like it explained to a simpleton such as I why the Dems weren't found guilty of vote buying and influencing votes (as per Thai law) leading to the party being disbanded as happened to Thaksin's crew. I'm certainly no Thaksin apologist. What an odious man he is but it'd certainly be nice to have a level playing field.

Not sure whether it's a real or rhetorical question, but the answer is: TRT and its later incarnations were much more blatant than the Dems re; vote buying. Pretty much everyone running for high office is cheating, as that's the norm, it's just that lately, those who are most flagrant about it, get busted.

A side note: Remember when the coup happened? Remember how easy it was. There was not a shot fired nor a stick or voice raised in protest. No resistance. Not one guard at any building raised slingshot or a fist. It was so easy to take over Thailand, I wondered if a ragtag group of farang marched in to Bangkok with wooden rifles would have been allowed to take over the country.

It wasn't until months later that we started hearing cries from Thaksin supporters. Where were they when it counted? Oh silly me, it took months for Thaksin to develop the payment channels for distributing money to build his false army of supporters. He must be pumping up the payments, because it sounds like several top Army brass are speaking up for him lately.

Incidentally, right before the coup, Thaksin had several outings with Military top brass on golf courses around Bangkok (where else?). He was doing all he could to ensure their allegiance. Obviously it didn't work. Not one military person (or one cop or one security person) high or low rank, came to his defense during the coup.

[Publicus]

Anyone saying the current PM was put in place by the military coup is up a creek without a paddle.

Correct; He wasn't put in place by the military coup.

He's allowed and tolerated by the military as long as he does what they want.

Thailand is heavily affected by the same sort of syndrome which most countries are afflicted with: It has a military that over-influences government people and its policies.

As much as anything else, the military is a bunch of (mostly) men who are trained to protect their country and kill/disable any forces that threaten it or the country they're protecting. They also have all the heavy weapons and most of the smaller weapons. So, regardless of whether there are laws which mention "separation of powers, etc" or "the military serves the legislature and/or the citizens" - the military has the ultimate strength. ...and it uses it more often than we'd like to see. That's why nearly all Latin American and African countries, as well as most of the rest of the world is beholden to what their military bosses want. Thailand is also in that group - to the extent that even Police chiefs are acting like bellicose big shots like the military brass.

Abhisit has shown trepidation to stand up to his military and police big shots in the past year, but I detect a slight strengthening of the PM's attitude. In other words, it appears he might have the willingness & ability to cull out some of the bad wood in the military/police within the next year, but it will be a slow and painful process. Plus, Thaksin, who earlier appointed most of the bad generals and police chiefs still in power, will do all he can to thwart Abhisit's efforts at cleaning up those forces. Thailand could do well to have a military which takes orders from the legislature, but it's still quite a ways off from that ideal.

I agree with most of what you just said.

The word "democracy" doesn't, by far yet, belong in Thai vocabulary.

As long as the military do NOT listen and obey to the democratically elected government, Thailand will not be considered a democracy.

As long as there is (even slightly) a threat of a possible coup, there's no democracy in Thailand.

We've heard too many times that there will be no more coups, mostly expressed by a general

In a real democracy the government would gag the same general immediately and he would most likely be stripped of his stars.

Thailand is still a "banana republic" when it comes to democracy.

LaoPo

I too have used the term banana republic which others love to use and use repeatedly of late in discussion of contemporary Thailand, but the term is essentially if not literally passe' in its original meaning and application. Countries of South America which were known by this term have long since passed beyond it. Even Chile is a well established democracy, as are Brazil, Argentina, Peru etc etc.

Yes the Thai military is overbearing and at times overactive but Thailand over the long term has both bananas and democracy. Given time it will have more of the latter, especially if the banana Himself finally at long last gets out of the way. 

[jayboy]

Yes the Thai military is overbearing and at times overactive but Thailand over the long term has both bananas and democracy. Given time it will have more of the latter, especially if the banana Himself finally at long last gets out of the way.

Please do not refer to General Prem in that disrespectful way, and the choice of fruit makes it that much worse.

Ok some allege he may have interfered with democratic politics and supported an illegal coup but on the other hand he is a respected statesman.Please no more then of this kind of scurrilous talk and remember Khun Prem's outstanding service to the nation..

[Steve2UK]

Yes the Thai military is overbearing and at times overactive but Thailand over the long term has both bananas and democracy. Given time it will have more of the latter, especially if the banana Himself finally at long last gets out of the way.

Please do not refer to General Prem in that disrespectful way, and the choice of fruit makes it that much worse.

Ok some allege he may have interfered with democratic politics and supported an illegal coup but on the other hand he is a respected statesman.Please no more then of this kind of scurrilous talk and remember Khun Prem's outstanding service to the nation..

Naughty.......

TVF's favourite quotable source (other than The Nation) Wikipedia offers some thoughts about "banana republics" which, taken overall, seem to make it clear that the term isn't 100% applicable to Thailand - much as IMO referring to all wearers of a shirt colour as goons/thugs/morons/zombies/rent-a-crowd etc isn't. The preamble to the entry is specific:

"Banana republic is a pejorative term for a country that is politically unstable, dependent on limited agriculture (e.g. bananas), and ruled by a small, self-elected, wealthy, and corrupt clique. The first known use of the term banana republic was by American author O. Henry in his 1904 book of linked short stories, Cabbages and Kings. The book is based on Henry's 1896-97 stay in Honduras..... The term was originally invented as a very direct reference to a "servile dictatorship" which abetted (or directly supported in return for kickbacks) the exploitation of large-scale plantation agriculture (usually banana cultivation).....

Features of a banana republic

1. A collusion between the overweening state and certain favored monopolistic concerns, whereby the profits can be privatized and the debts socialized.

2. Devalued paper currency in the international community.

3. Kleptocracy -- those in positions of influence use their time in office to maximize their own gains, always ensuring that any shortfall is made up by those unfortunates whose daily life involves earning money rather than making it.

4. There must be no principle of accountability within the government so that the political corruption by which the Banana Republic operates is left unchecked. The members of the national legislature will be [a] largely for sale and consulted only for ceremonial and rubber-stamp purposes some time after all the truly important decisions have already been made elsewhere."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_republic

Relating the term to Thailand? Item 1 - looks promising. Item 2 - not really (even looking back to 1997 and its aftermath). Item 3 looks to be a runner. Item 4[a] - say no more. Item 4 - IMO to varying degrees could be said of many legislatures.

On balance - it's a too-sweeping term I will continue to avoid using about Thailand.

[Publicus]

Yes the Thai military is overbearing and at times overactive but Thailand over the long term has both bananas and democracy. Given time it will have more of the latter, especially if the banana Himself finally at long last gets out of the way.

Please do not refer to General Prem in that disrespectful way, and the choice of fruit makes it that much worse.

Ok some allege he may have interfered with democratic politics and supported an illegal coup but on the other hand he is a respected statesman.Please no more then of this kind of scurrilous talk and remember Khun Prem's outstanding service to the nation..

I trust you're being witty, or more accurately stated, attempting to be witty because it's not your strong suit. As anyone at this forum with more than a dozen posts would know, I of course am referring to Dr. LTC Thaksin Himself //deleted by Admin//

Gen Prem is no angel but Prem did a good job of chasing the wolf Thaksin from the door (assuming of course Gen Prem may have had some small role in the eviction).

[ChiangMaiFun]

Yes the Thai military is overbearing and at times overactive but Thailand over the long term has both bananas and democracy. Given time it will have more of the latter, especially if the banana Himself finally at long last gets out of the way.

Please do not refer to General Prem in that disrespectful way, and the choice of fruit makes it that much worse.

Ok some allege he may have interfered with democratic politics and supported an illegal coup but on the other hand he is a respected statesman.Please no more then of this kind of scurrilous talk and remember Khun Prem's outstanding service to the nation..

I trust you're being witty, or more accurately stated, attempting to be witty because it's not your strong suit. As anyone at this forum with more than a dozen posts would know, I of course am referring to Dr. LTC Thaksin Himself //deleted by Admin//.

Gen Prem is no angel but Prem did a good job of chasing the wolf Thaksin from the door (assuming of course Gen Prem may have had some small role in the eviction).

I am not a particular fan of Thaksin but he led the country for years and did a substantial amount of good whatever his faults. I don't think it's very good to slag him off on these forums in the language you have used - say that up here and you may find you end up in the Ping River! we are guests in this country and although we may have leanings and reservations about the former Prime Minister not sure calling hima Banana and Wolf is very wise or our business.

[webfact]

one post edited and a reply to it deleted. Sorry for the innocent.

If this tone continues this topic will not live for long.

Please use proper language and refrain from inappropriate comparisons when posting. Otherwise a suspension might be very well in store.

Thank you

[Publicus]

I trust you're being witty, or more accurately stated, attempting to be witty because it's not your strong suit. As anyone at this forum with more than a dozen posts would know, I of course am referring to Dr. LTC Thaksin Himself, the biggest banana of them all.

Gen Prem is no angel but Prem did a good job of chasing the wolf Thaksin from the door (assuming of course Gen Prem may have had some small role in the eviction).

Thank you for making the position clear regarding which big banana you had in mind.//removed by Admin//.This is far from being proven and I would sincerely ask you to keep this kind of inflammatory speculation to yourself.

As I said, not a strong suit.

However, when did I say 'coup' in connection to the person whose name you introduced to this discussion and whose name you keep mentioning? I have not used the word coup nor did I introduce his name at all, much less in such a context. Quite to the contrary, your post states "...some allege he may have..........." and makes a reference to an "illegal coup."

I did not. I have not. Never would, thank you.

Wrong tree.