Christianity Or The Bar ?

[OriginalPoster]

There were two Supreme Court cases involving that issue in the 1940's. Since 1943, it's been settled law that students cannot be punished for refusing to cite the Pledge of Allegiance. Of course that doesn't mean that the kids won't get bullied and harassed by other kids over it, it just means that teachers and school administrators can't be the ones doing the bullying and harassing. Even before the 1943 decision the issue wasn't that people were being arrested or prosecuted for not saying the pledge though, the case arose from children of Jevohah's witnesses being expelled from school for unwillingness to recite the pledge.

A good example of how the law can say one thing, but that something else is done. I am a retired school principal and I know of schools where students were were given discipline referrals and suspended for not participating in the pledge. The suspensions were, of course, overturned. Nevertheless, those situations occurred.

Do kids still recite the Pledge of Allegiance in American schools?

I went to public school in the US in the 1960's and 1970's and while I remember reciting the pledge at a young age I can't remember reciting it from about the 4th grade onward. I'm not sure if that's because beyond a certain grade level they stop reciting it or because beyond a certain year teachers gave up on it. Actually though, the indoctrination that I remember from public schools is much different than what people tend to assume, what I remember more is my teachers talking about what was wrong with America, I have few memories of them telling us what was right. And definitely I don't remember them forcing God on us.

Edited January 17, 2010 by OriginalPoster

[F1fanatic]

"..Christian Missions are mainly focused on promoting Christianity - helping people comes second..."

let me attempt to correct you..helping people comes FIRST!!!! ..they are mainly focused on helping people to make the choice to discover Christianity ( or not ).. they are simply pointing out that the door is always open for anyone to enter.. As much as I respect Buddhism, BUDDHA prophesized ( typo ) the coming of Jesus in approximately 500 B.C. Buddha was ALSO HELPING the people first and foremost. Oy...

So you think whatever church it is is paying out the money for the people to be there just to be helpful?

Don't even get me started on Buddhism as its practised in Thailand! I always thought Buddhism had a lot to recommend it until I came here...

[canuckamuck]

I think some of you guys need to take a stroll down walking street one night with your eyes open, to see what these girls frequently have grunting over them night after night. And then decide if it is conceivable that some of these ladies might like to have a do-over on their career choices.

It has been a while since Brad Pitt was there.

[OriginalPoster]

I'm an atheist too but I sometimes get a bit tired of seeing religious people being mocked for their beliefs.

Good for you, but in my country religious ppl still have more rights then non religious people. If an imam in Holland can say that they should throw gays from the high buildings head first and get away with it while i could not say a thing like that without getting arrested (not that i wanted) because i cant claim it has to do with my religion we have a long way to go. I'm now not singe-ling out Muslims just pointing out that religious people should not complain too much.

Don't forget before they burned people who did not believe.

Impressive intolerance you've got going on there.

You call it intolerance pointing out that religious ppl have nothing to complain about and still have more rights ? I call it stating facts. I'm tolerant of other religions as long as they don't bother me and that is usually the problem.

I must say its good to be in Thailand not much problems with religion. But if i read about my country that shops have to close on Sundays again because of christian groups i see that as a problem. Why do religious people like to force their beliefs on others.

Im stating facts and yes there is some resentment because i see my lovely country change back from liberal to more backward under guidance of a christian government. I live here but i still feel for my country.

That's BS but it's typical of how western liberals define "tolerance" these days. Basically western liberalism means that you "tolerate" drug use, prostitution, and sodomy between consenting adults, but intolerance towards people who are devoted to their religion is perfectly OK.  

Edited January 17, 2010 by bonobo
Removed pejorative

[F1fanatic]

I think some of you guys need to take a stroll down walking street one night with your eyes open, to see what these girls frequently have grunting over them night after night. And then decide if it is conceivable that some of these ladies might like to have a do-over on their career choices.

It has been a while since Brad Pitt was there.

Few people deny that - in fact the only people that do are those with a wife/girlfriend in tow that are desperate to convince others that she's with him 'cos she loves him - nothing to do with the money!

[OriginalPoster]

Baloney. It's not being forced upon you...as is clear from your attitude. UNLESS you are willing to say that by reading your post you are forcing your beliefs on me.

And who says a public building should be neutral? You're not in Kansas anymore, Toto. It's THEIR country to do as they wish. Not yours to change.

Well, when there is no separation of church and state, then there is a predisposition to favour the state sponsored religion. I do not see how I am forcing my beliefs upon you when I say that there should be a separation of church and state and that people should be free to believe or not to believe. A public building should indeed be neutral as it is intended to serve everyone and is funded by everyone. To do otherwise is to say that one group is favoured over another. Your reference to Kansas may be an unintentional error on your part because of the state board of education's lengthy embarrassment in respect to backing creationism/intelligent design. It was an act of stupidity that cost the state dearly and was a situation where the separation of church and state was ignored. Obviously you and I disagree. However, I do believe my view that religion is a personal subject and that one should not be subjected to having any religion foisted on a person is more respectful of a person's basic human rights than your view.

I disagree vehemently with you. Intelligent Design is the fall back position of the creationists. It was funded and sponsored by the same people that had pushed creationism. Obviously this is not the place to have such a discussion. I do invite you to google the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. The wikipedia entry provides a nice overview if you find the amount of info and links for the Pastafarian church to be too much. I believe that you will fund sufficient documentation to demonstrate the links between the creationist groups and Intelligent Design groups as well as many examples of how Intelligent design is a charade. I still hold to the belief that the original theories expounded upon by Darwin and eventually improved upon by others was greatly influenced by Darwin's Anglican background and exposure to Unitarian Christianity and is far more compatible with the bible than the fallacy of intelligent design.

Even the US Constitution does not guarantee a separation between church and state. What the 1st amendment to the Constitution specifies is that "Congress shall establish no religion". The separation of Church from State thing comes from personal correspondences written by Thomas Jefferson but it was never enshrined in the Constitution.

I agree with you though that Intelligent Design is one and the same as Creationism.

[F1fanatic]

Have to admit, this is a bit of a hobby-horse of mine - but am I the only one who thinks neither creationism or evolution explains mankind?

Creationism is way beyond belief - god loves us but permits the atrocities that happens to individual people - and they are people, just like you and I.

Evolution? - We get back to the old probs about how on earth did something as basic as the eye develop? There would have been no use for it until is actually worked.

So where do we go from here?

[AsiaCheese]

Have to admit, this is a bit of a hobby-horse of mine - but am I the only one who thinks neither creationism or evolution explains mankind?

Creationism is way beyond belief - god loves us but permits the atrocities that happens to individual people - and they are people, just like you and I.

Evolution? - We get back to the old probs about how on earth did something as basic as the eye develop? There would have been no use for it until is actually worked.

So where do we go from here?

Simple: read Richard Dawkins' books, or grab/torrent a few of his BBC videos (both the ones specifically on Darwinism and those on religions). There's a very good explanation on how eyes came about -- and that's from the horse's mouth (a biologist), and not from the horse's ass (the people with populist explanations for just about anything and everything, slightly limited by 10,000 years of this world's existence)...

BTW: who designed the designer? Can't just have "evolved" -- wouldn't fit the script!

[F1fanatic]

Have to admit, this is a bit of a hobby-horse of mine - but am I the only one who thinks neither creationism or evolution explains mankind?

Creationism is way beyond belief - god loves us but permits the atrocities that happens to individual people - and they are people, just like you and I.

Evolution? - We get back to the old probs about how on earth did something as basic as the eye develop? There would have been no use for it until is actually worked.

So where do we go from here?

Simple: read Richard Dawkins' books, or grab/torrent a few of his BBC videos (both the ones specifically on Darwinism and those on religions). There's a very good explanation on how eyes came about -- and that's from the horse's mouth (a biologist), and not from the horse's ass (the people with populist explanations for just about anything and everything, slightly limited by 10,000 years of this world's existence)...

BTW: who designed the designer? Can't just have "evolved" -- wouldn't fit the script!

OK, so put it in layman's terms here.

[473geo]

Creationism....evolution......

Assistance from any quarter to improve a life, make living more tolerable, is surely to be applauded as Guesthouse has suggested.

Religion is a personal choice.........poverty,illness,homelessness,loneliness, is often not a choice. Perhaps if any of you ever end up in one of these situations you will rethink any opposition you may find in your heart at this moment.........including the religious persuasion of any person who may be able to help you find a way out.

There is nothing you gain for yourself by criticising people who are willing to invest time and resource in a charitable project to help others.........

If there is please let me know.......it would appear I have a blind spot!

[F1fanatic]

Creationism....evolution......

Assistance from any quarter to improve a life, make living more tolerable, is surely to be applauded as Guesthouse has suggested.

Religion is a personal choice.........poverty,illness,homelessness,loneliness, is often not a choice. Perhaps if any of you ever end up in one of these situations you will rethink any opposition you may find in your heart at this moment.........including the religious persuasion of any person who may be able to help you find a way out.

There is nothing you gain for yourself by criticising people who are willing to invest time and resource in a charitable project to help others.........

If there is please let me know.......it would appear I have a blind spot!

Yes, you have a blind spot.

Doing 'anything you can' to improve your life is understandable, but not a good trait. In fact it proves the opposite when it harms someone else.

But's its the way it is here - brings us back to religion - looks so good, but underneath is corrupt and deceptive.

[monkfish]

Well I think they do a bloody good job! and should expand 10 fold.

As far as I'm concerned the less Bar Girls the better! Unless of course they are only serving drinks

It would also be good for Thailands reputation me thinks.

Gee even my local Pub has about 6 bar Girls now who all want to sell there services and it can be very annoying when you just want to have a drink.

[StreetCowboy]

Creationism....evolution......

Assistance from any quarter to improve a life, make living more tolerable, is surely to be applauded as Guesthouse has suggested.

Religion is a personal choice.........poverty,illness,homelessness,loneliness, is often not a choice. Perhaps if any of you ever end up in one of these situations you will rethink any opposition you may find in your heart at this moment.........including the religious persuasion of any person who may be able to help you find a way out.

There is nothing you gain for yourself by criticising people who are willing to invest time and resource in a charitable project to help others.........

If there is please let me know.......it would appear I have a blind spot!

I'm a little bit surprised that no-one has raised the issue that the do-gooders are paying bar fines (i.e. to the employers - pimps if you want to use a prejorative word) and thus encouraging the trade and helping them stay in business... It's a bit like buying up the illegal drug supply or gun supply; OK if you assume that the supply is less elastic than the demand, but otherwise, by contributing to the demand you are enhancing the supply.

I'm sorry to set another hare running (don't you just love field sports?) but I think that is a bit more on-topic than evolution v creationism, crusades v jihads and paedophiles singing the sash...

SC

[basjke]

Gee even my local Pub has about 6 bar Girls now who all want to sell there services and it can be very annoying when you just want to have a drink.

Ok I will talk to the pub owner to get in some bar boys also as soon as possible.

[F1fanatic]

Creationism....evolution......

Assistance from any quarter to improve a life, make living more tolerable, is surely to be applauded as Guesthouse has suggested.

Religion is a personal choice.........poverty,illness,homelessness,loneliness, is often not a choice. Perhaps if any of you ever end up in one of these situations you will rethink any opposition you may find in your heart at this moment.........including the religious persuasion of any person who may be able to help you find a way out.

There is nothing you gain for yourself by criticising people who are willing to invest time and resource in a charitable project to help others.........

If there is please let me know.......it would appear I have a blind spot!

I'm a little bit surprised that no-one has raised the issue that the do-gooders are paying bar fines (i.e. to the employers - pimps if you want to use a prejorative word) and thus encouraging the trade and helping them stay in business... It's a bit like buying up the illegal drug supply or gun supply; OK if you assume that the supply is less elastic than the demand, but otherwise, by contributing to the demand you are enhancing the supply.

I'm sorry to set another hare running (don't you just love field sports?) but I think that is a bit more on-topic than evolution v creationism, crusades v jihads and paedophiles singing the sash...

SC

No - the 'do gooders' do their bit with the women in bars until they find the one they think loves them. There are those that are 'pimped' so bar fines are payable, but who on earth thinks that ANY woman thy meet in a bar here is not there for one reason only???

[geriatrickid]

Creationism....evolution......

Assistance from any quarter to improve a life, make living more tolerable, is surely to be applauded as Guesthouse has suggested.

Religion is a personal choice.........poverty,illness,homelessness,loneliness, is often not a choice. Perhaps if any of you ever end up in one of these situations you will rethink any opposition you may find in your heart at this moment.........including the religious persuasion of any person who may be able to help you find a way out.

There is nothing you gain for yourself by criticising people who are willing to invest time and resource in a charitable project to help others.........

If there is please let me know.......it would appear I have a blind spot!

And you return the thread to its origin

Nicely put too.

If these missionaries are able to help someone make a better life for him or herself, then who am I to interfere?

I do not see too many other people reaching out to the target group. I may not have much use for the missionaries religious views, but I can respect many of the ladies that work the long hours trying to make a positive difference. It's these missionaries that go into some of the filthiest and most deprived of communities. Perhaps it is their faith that shields them from the sights, sounds, smells and lack of support from the local social agencies.. I know I lasted all of 48 hours in a hot zone before I said screw it to the local authorities. Shove your plague up the wazoo and call me when you are prepared to follow instructions. Sure beats doing nothing.

[basjke]

I think some of you guys need to take a stroll down walking street one night with your eyes open, to see what these girls frequently have grunting over them night after night. And then decide if it is conceivable that some of these ladies might like to have a do-over on their career choices.

It has been a while since Brad Pitt was there.

So the business they CHOOSE doesn't turns out to be as they dreamed about,that's when the rescue team has to show up?

[473geo]

Creationism....evolution......

Assistance from any quarter to improve a life, make living more tolerable, is surely to be applauded as Guesthouse has suggested.

Religion is a personal choice.........poverty,illness,homelessness,loneliness, is often not a choice. Perhaps if any of you ever end up in one of these situations you will rethink any opposition you may find in your heart at this moment.........including the religious persuasion of any person who may be able to help you find a way out.

There is nothing you gain for yourself by criticising people who are willing to invest time and resource in a charitable project to help others.........

If there is please let me know.......it would appear I have a blind spot!

Yes, you have a blind spot.

Doing 'anything you can' to improve your life is understandable, but not a good trait. In fact it proves the opposite when it harms someone else.

But's its the way it is here - brings us back to religion - looks so good, but underneath is corrupt and deceptive.

Quite possibly......but if the alternative is to leave people to rot......not try to give them a hand out of a cesspit........well, you may continue to criticise because that is your free choice.Until something better is found......I will ignore the failings of religion where the charitable efforts of a few dedicated people create real benefit.

Streetcowboy:...there will probably be a newlady to replace all those that are redeployed.....so the bar owners will not be affected in reality either way..............all I am saying is, there is no need to knock people for doing charitable acts...........

Quite frankly if you are dangling over a precipice.......are you seriously going to check what the religion of the person is who offers their arm over the edge of the cliff!!!!

[F1fanatic]

Creationism....evolution......

Assistance from any quarter to improve a life, make living more tolerable, is surely to be applauded as Guesthouse has suggested.

Religion is a personal choice.........poverty,illness,homelessness,loneliness, is often not a choice. Perhaps if any of you ever end up in one of these situations you will rethink any opposition you may find in your heart at this moment.........including the religious persuasion of any person who may be able to help you find a way out.

There is nothing you gain for yourself by criticising people who are willing to invest time and resource in a charitable project to help others.........

If there is please let me know.......it would appear I have a blind spot!

And you return the thread to its origin

Nicely put too.

If these missionaries are able to help someone make a better life for him or herself, then who am I to interfere?

I do not see too many other people reaching out to the target group. I may not have much use for the missionaries religious views, but I can respect many of the ladies that work the long hours trying to make a positive difference. It's these missionaries that go into some of the filthiest and most deprived of communities. Perhaps it is their faith that shields them from the sights, sounds, smells and lack of support from the local social agencies.. I know I lasted all of 48 hours in a hot zone before I said screw it to the local authorities. Shove your plague up the wazoo and call me when you are prepared to follow instructions. Sure beats doing nothing.

V funny, I enjoyed it, but it doesn't change the truth. So sorry for those that are desperately trying to convince themselves they're loved for themselves - not their money.

You're not - but who cares? As long as you believe it, you're fine.

Meanwhile the rest of us can get back to a discussion about religion.

[473geo]

I think some of you guys need to take a stroll down walking street one night with your eyes open, to see what these girls frequently have grunting over them night after night. And then decide if it is conceivable that some of these ladies might like to have a do-over on their career choices.

It has been a while since Brad Pitt was there.

So the business they CHOOSE doesn't turns out to be as they dreamed about,that's when the rescue team has to show up?

Rescue teams turned up pretty quickly for the banks.......as I recall......and cost a hel_l of a lot more too..

Perhaps we should have left them to find a charity to bail them out........oh they did......the hard working class man paying into the government coffers!!!

[StreetCowboy]

I had to leave the office, and I was all set to go for a pint and chat up a tart, then I thought "No, I'll go down the internet cafe for a bit of a bicker...

But I think I'll avoid the topic of whether the international banking system should have been allowed to collapse.

Is there any reason why a practicing Christian could not maintain a stable job as a hooker in a gogo bar?

SC

[HAL9000]

Thailand is a country where religion is not forced upon anybody.

Religion relies on brainwashing from a young age and that certainly is practiced here.

Would your home country be better off if the Salvation Army did not exist?

YES

I thought disrespectful statements were not allowed here.

[sharecropper]

Streetcowboy - that's a great question: Is there any reason why a practicing Christian could not maintain a stable job as a hooker in a gogo bar?

I would say absolutely not, empirically. Just go to The Philippines. Most girls working in bars there are devoutly religious.

It is extremely patronising of smug Christians who want to "save" (but only if there's something in it for them) to believe otherwise, but I am interested to hear their responses.

[473geo]

There may well be some out there......I doubt many have asked the question..

[StreetCowboy]

There may well be some out there......I doubt many have asked the question..

I read a story (it was on the internet, so it must be true) about a Philippina bar girl who wouldn't sleep with married men...

SC

[473geo]

Sharecropper you can apply labels......you can call people smug.....you can accuse them of having ulterior motives......your choice.

They in turn can choose to make a difference.......

Action or inaction........you will know the story of the good samaritan

So religion or not, the simple question here is which side of the road are you on when you pass a person in distress?

[StreetCowboy]

Streetcowboy - that's a great question: Is there any reason why a practicing Christian could not maintain a stable job as a hooker in a gogo bar?

I would say absolutely not, empirically. Just go to The Philippines. Most girls working in bars there are devoutly religious.

It is extremely patronising of smug Christians who want to "save" (but only if there's something in it for them) to believe otherwise, but I am interested to hear their responses.

"..extremely patronising"? a little hyperbole perhaps; not too much, just enough...

I've met a few ladies in bars who would benefit from some sort of charitable interest; older ladies, with young families to support, who can't earn sufficient in a factory to pay school fees, and who's family don't have any land to work; girls who've been led astray by drugs, drink or gambling. I really don't see any reason to denigrate people who help others, for whatever reason - particularly if you're not willing to put your own hand in your pocket...

SC

[473geo]

There may well be some out there......I doubt many have asked the question..

I read a story (it was on the internet, so it must be true) about a Philippina bar girl who wouldn't sleep with married men...

SC

Outright discrimination......disgusting.....and... how can she be saved if her only transgression is making a few single guys happy????

[yabaaaa]

The existence of God is proven mathematically as there is no possibility that the universe could exist coincidentally without intelligent design. There are many experiments carried out in the field of quantum physics which demonstrate that consciousness and reality are interconnected, and that God is at least probable. In my experience, the people I have met who are most upset by the concept of religion or God are people who have the most to lose in the end if they are wrong. It is no use arguing about it anyway, as everyone will find out one way or another in the end.

As far as missionaries and Christianity, the Christians do perhaps more good works in this country than the Buddhists do. Nothing against Buddhism as I think it is a beautiful religion and is much like Christianity in many ways anyhow. But as a whole I believe the Christian church has done more charity-wise that Buddhists, but to be fair they also have more money.

Mathematics is not biochemisty, physiology, nor biology. "Intelligent design" is a misleading invented name for the literal acceptance of the Bible's story of creation. I am not going to get into a sidetracked debate on the subject, but the ridiculous proposals used to explain how Dinosaurs came after man and that carbon dating is unbelievable speaks for itself. One might as well believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. The sad part of the Creationist, ooops sorry "Intelligent Design" position is that it is based upon making wild claims as to what the principles of evolution and selective adaptation actually say. The worst part of the false attributions made is when they say evolution says man is descended from apes. What evolution says is that we share a common origin. This is far more compatible with the Bible than the pseudo science that comes from people that are not qualified to discuss the subject and that have to make up facts.

I say again, Thailand has its own religion that is forced upon the people. Open your eyes a bit more clearly.

Are they forcing it on you?

Yes they are. It is forced upon me when I enter a public building and there are religious symbols. In countries with a secure sense of nation, a public building should be neutral. What kind of message is given to the muslim population which has been in Thailand for as long as the Buddhists? It is forced upon me when I enter a taxi or other public transit and there are the religious icons and markings in the vehicle. Vehicles in public service trade should not have a religious flavour.

It is forced upon me when I have to hear the prayers broadcast over the loudspeakers. It is forced upon me by my friends when they go to Temple with their offerings and insist that I accompany them. I will go, but decline to enter or purchase offerings. They believe that I am being cheap, particularly when I do not put money into the envelope of the guy collecting for the Temple. I will not engage in idol worship nor support such activity. It is forced upon me when a monk comes with his alms bowl. It is considered offensive not to give food or alms. I however, find it offensive that the act of charity is a public spectacle. Charity should be done quietly and anonymously. It is forced upon me with the never ending collections when someone decides he's going to make merit and be a monk for a month. It is forced upon me when the staff at the airport counter will fall all over themselves to make sure the monk gets priority service. Who cares if the monk is selling fake amulets or is a scoundrel hiding out. He's in a monk's robes, so you have to make nice. The obstacles and barriers in place for non Buddhist denominations that wish to erect a church, temple, mosque etc. does suggest that such faiths are not "encouraged".

I accept the religious aspect of life here because that's the way it is. However, there is a conceited arrogance that says there is no need to learn about any other religion or to appreciate that some people are not Buddhists.

[geriatrickid]

Some religious groups such as the Salvation Army take care of those that the rest of us would not go near. Although they may ask some to engage in some rousing hymn singing, the service provided by the Sally Ann are provided in a non denominational manner and take into account secular sensibilities. Religion is not forced upon anyone. I have been in some of the shelters and it's not pretty. While I leave emotionally drained, I do believe the religious beliefs of the workers gives them the strength to wash a lice infested wino, to tend to the infected wounds of a junkie, to talk to a mentally unstable psychotic and to provide unconditional love for those that have none. It's all in the way it is done. If it wasn't for groups like the Salvation Army, the streets in many big western countries would be over run with some very scary creepy people. They do the dirty work of society.