Renting In Thailand, What Is The Thai Law?

[hackerthai]

1

Renting in Thailand (What is the law)

I have rented a house with a pool for two years now and have been happy. The pool and yard has been maintained by two separate Thai companies during that time. The cost for the pool is 2500/month and 600/month yard.

I asked the owner if I can take care of the yard and pool as I know how to do so and would like to reduce the rent the same amount. The owner of the house (foreigner) said yes and thought it was a good idea. He wants me to stay longer and I also want to stay longer but need to reduce the rent as the economy is tough right now.

I was told by the property manager that it is Illegal for me (a foreigner) to clean the pool and do the yard care. Here are the exact words from the property manager,

“It would create an income for you and this is illegal and against the

law in Thailand. You create an income despite you do not have the necessary

work permit. Illegal activities or non payment gives the land lord or his representative the right to cancel the rental agreement immediately.”

1) I would not have an income but would be reducing the rent accordingly.

2) Do other renters reading this have a work permit to clean the yard and pool?

What would you recommend doing?

Any input would be appreciated,

Any Lawyers reading can give input?

Thank you

[PattayaParent]

I would tell the proprty manager that you also do your own ironing but you don't have a work permit as a maid and that you do your own cooking and don't have a work permit as a cook and so he should go <deleted> himself.

[drumournie]

I would tell the proprty manager that you also do your own ironing but you don't have a work permit as a maid and that you do your own cooking and don't have a work permit as a cook and so he should go <deleted> himself.

I must agree with PP, had a good laugh with your direct reply.

[Nio]

I would tell the proprty manager that you also do your own ironing but you don't have a work permit as a maid and that you do your own cooking and don't have a work permit as a cook and so he should go <deleted> himself.

Nice one mate, I haven't had a good laugh like that in a while.

[thaiwanderer]

Technically: It is work, a permit would be required but you are unlikely to get one merely on those facts.

The manager is trying to scare you because you would be taking money away from a Thai.

That will of course be the motivation for trying to make problems for you regardless of how ridiculous the law you would technically be breaking may seem or not having broken other laws that you may be found guilty over.

As with anything its for you to decide.

[Irene]

Technically: It is work, a permit would be required but you are unlikely to get one merely on those facts.

The manager is trying to scare you because you would be taking money away from a Thai.

That will of course be the motivation for trying to make problems for you regardless of how ridiculous the law you would technically be breaking may seem or not having broken other laws that you may be found guilty over.

As with anything its for you to decide.

No, it cannot be regarded as services rendered. It is a negotiation for rental reduction that a lease agreement is changed from previously the maintenance of pool and yard was the responsibility of the landlord and now revised as that of the tenant. Get this in writing from the landlord or the tenant writes a letter and the landlord signs and accepts in writing. Then the whole thing should be fine. I love to know the name of this agent.

[krakatoa]

I would tell the proprty manager that you also do your own ironing but you don't have a work permit as a maid and that you do your own cooking and don't have a work permit as a cook and so he should go <deleted> himself.

I must agree with PP, had a good laugh with your direct reply.

Agreed !!

And here in the realm remove tha 'A' and what are you left with "GREED"

It means that you cannot cut you lawn, paint you apartment what ever.

The trouble with the realm is that it's a 5th world country (I can see another holiday on the horizon )

It's just one long holiday inside a holiday.

And perhaps the bottom line might be something like this "doing your own work on your own property regardless of whether it cleaning the pool or painting your apartment means that it will be done right. Get a Thai to paint something and there will be 5 litres of paint on the walls and 10 litres on the floor, adjacent window and doors & door frames, glass, and even you, if you should happen to be leaning on the walls. They don't know what a plumbing trap is so you get all the shyt smells coming back uo into you kitchen or the loor drains etc.

And you can't rely on your Thai GF to tell the plumber she can't because if he is older than she, she has to be "krieng jai"

Edited April 4, 2010 by krakatoa

[nam-thip]

Ask your landlord to draw up a new lease agreement to include pool cleaning etc as part of the rental agreement that way it becomes your responsibility and for that no work permit is required.

As said, its scaremongering with the usual Thai’s despicable greed for money.

You wouldn’t be taking money off anyone if it was written into the contract as being your responsibility.

[antony77]

I don't know what kind of pool you have but if it has a chlorinator it should not cost more than Bt200 a month and you

vacuum the pool yourself. If it has not got a chlorinator you might have to spend Bt1000 a month on chlorine. Either way the contractor was ripping you off. As for th crap about a work permit; well, its been answere in another reply

[Jonathanpattaya]

It sounds like you could be opening a can of worms.

[thaiwanderer]

Some strange ideas here.

Putting it in the lease doesn't alter anything.

Even (which isn't the case here) no one was ever getting paid for it - the labour laws include the notion of taking work off a Thai who could do it.

That the OP asks about the legalities suggests he/she has already discounted the 'get stuffed' approach.

Edited April 5, 2010 by thaiwanderer

[dave111223]

Tell him you weren't able to obtain a work permit to wipe your ass either; is he willing to fill that position too?

[LennyW]

It sounds like you could be opening a can of worms.

Would that not fall foul? as i am sure a Thai could manage that!!

[Crossy]

This is a very interesting question that comes up occasionally, never really gets a definitive answer because there really isn't one.

My take:

If this was my home and a new build I would not hesitate to clean my own yard, cut the grass and clean the pool. I don't see I need a WP to cut my own grass, water my plants etc.

BUT

In this case, the yard and pool work has previously been sub-contracted and the OP taking over these tasks could easily be construed as 'taking a job from a Thai' which would most likely cause issues if pressed (and the management company seems prepared to cause issues).

It may be wise to tread the prudent path, maybe find a different contractor who can do for a cheaper price. Or hire a local chap to do the jobs for a nominal fee and teach him how to maintain the pool (then we have another issue, can you teach him without a WP?).

I see no problem in moving the maintenance to being the renter's responsibility, it's whether he does it himself or hires in help that is the issue.

I wonder if this thread may do better in the Visa and Work Permits forum, OP PM me if you want it moving

[BillR]

I would not mess with it. If the police or immigration gets involved out of spite of the management company you can get some big time fines. If you do decide to go it alone, if anyone ever shows up your property play dumb and say you are going to call your attorney.

[123ace]

Likley outcome: The OP does the work and still pays the contractor anyway. The work gets done properly, and no laws broken.

[yabaaaa]

Tell him you weren't able to obtain a work permit to wipe your ass either; is he willing to fill that position too?

Or tell him you couldnt get the permit for "talking <deleted>" so you left that to him too

[lioness]

Well thats it's then, on the maids day off I a not going to wash up, put out the washing, or put clean towels in the bathrooms, in fact I'm wondering if sexual relations are out as well as It might be doing some sex worker out of a job...

Really, where does nonsence stop and sense prevail.

[jingjoke]

Hi hackerthai,

The situation you are in is about to go legal by the sounds of things. In Thailand as you well know, the legalities do not generally favor you, or any of us. Unless you are 'wedded' to that house, I would seriously consider moving. It's a lot of aggro you do not need. Do not speak to them further unless compelled to, and then simply say your lawyer is looking into the matter, even if there is no lawyer. In the meantime pack up and leave. This will never get better, even if you wish it would. Even your present landlord has not helped matters. Good luck, I empathize.

[GarryP]

Your problem is the property manager. I rent a house and it was agreed with the owner that I would do minor repairs myself, made sure the tree was trimmed, etc. Technically this is illegal, but who gives a sh*t when you are not treading on any one's toes. Both myself and the owner have been happy with the arrangement and as no one else is involved there is no issue.

In your case, if the property manager is not happy and is a vindictive so and so he could cause you all kinds of trouble. It is just not worth it. One day when you are cleaning the pool he could call in the Labour Department, Immigration etc. It is not beyond the realms of possibility.

[jcbangkok]

Technically: It is work, a permit would be required but you are unlikely to get one merely on those facts.

The manager is trying to scare you because you would be taking money away from a Thai.

That will of course be the motivation for trying to make problems for you regardless of how ridiculous the law you would technically be breaking may seem or not having broken other laws that you may be found guilty over.

As with anything its for you to decide.

I must have been in violation of the law when I was staying at a serviced apartment then because I originally had them cleaning and replacing sheets and towels every day but then reduced my rent by having them only do it once a week and doing my only cleaning.

[jcbangkok]

Some strange ideas here.

Putting it in the lease doesn't alter anything.

Even (which isn't the case here) no one was ever getting paid for it - the labour laws include the notion of taking work off a Thai who could do it.

That the OP asks about the legalities suggests he/she has already discounted the 'get stuffed' approach.

Actually volunteer work cab be considered work too but we are talking about the upkeep of his dwelling. What if he was the throw a leaf out of the pool in between the pool guy coming??? Would he be deported? This is Thailand but lets use our brains.

Simply have the owner tell the property manager the he is going to take care of this stuff himself now.

I am not sure of the cost of pool service in Thailand but sounds pretty steep what you are currently paying.

[jcbangkok]

Your problem is the property manager. I rent a house and it was agreed with the owner that I would do minor repairs myself, made sure the tree was trimmed, etc. Technically this is illegal, but who gives a sh*t when you are not treading on any one's toes. Both myself and the owner have been happy with the arrangement and as no one else is involved there is no issue.

In your case, if the property manager is not happy and is a vindictive so and so he could cause you all kinds of trouble. It is just not worth it. One day when you are cleaning the pool he could call in the Labour Department, Immigration etc. It is not beyond the realms of possibility.

It is as much in the realm of possibility that someone calls when he is vacuuming the house or cleaning the windows or changing the oil in his car.

[jcbangkok]

This is a very interesting question that comes up occasionally, never really gets a definitive answer because there really isn't one.

My take:

If this was my home and a new build I would not hesitate to clean my own yard, cut the grass and clean the pool. I don't see I need a WP to cut my own grass, water my plants etc.

BUT

In this case, the yard and pool work has previously been sub-contracted and the OP taking over these tasks could easily be construed as 'taking a job from a Thai' which would most likely cause issues if pressed (and the management company seems prepared to cause issues).

It may be wise to tread the prudent path, maybe find a different contractor who can do for a cheaper price. Or hire a local chap to do the jobs for a nominal fee and teach him how to maintain the pool (then we have another issue, can you teach him without a WP?).

I see no problem in moving the maintenance to being the renter's responsibility, it's whether he does it himself or hires in help that is the issue.

I wonder if this thread may do better in the Visa and Work Permits forum, OP PM me if you want it moving

A good point here in terms of "taking a job away from a Thai' ... that does put a little different spin on it. But then again the same could be said if you decided to stop using the service station to change your oil and did it yourself or if you fired your made or nanny and decided to do your own cooking/cleaning and raising your kid. Bottom line is this is Thailand and logic doesn't always dictate but I really couldn't see you getting in any trouble unless the property management company is connected.

Why not just go to immigration and ask somebody and if you get the answer you like then make sure you get the person's name and document your visit.

Edited April 26, 2010 by jcbangkok

[PhiPhi]

I don't see this holding water!

Looks like a case of a property manager trying to protect the kick backs from his brother in laws pool cleaning business. As long as your sound on your visa go ahead and clean the pool in the house that you have rented. As long as you are not starting a pool cleaning business the Labour Dept. don't care about you doing domestic chores. Unless your lease expressly says a reduction in rent will be made for pool cleaning it could not be considered payment in kind.

I can just imagine the conversation.

SFX: Ring, ring.

LD: "Hello"

PROPMAN: "Yes this is propman at moo baan X, I want to report a farang who is working illegally"

LD: "Okay, can I have the details please?"

PROPMAN: "Yes, he cleaning his swimming pool"

LD: "I see, how much is he charging you?"

PROPMAN: "No, he not charge me, he clean his pool for free"

LD: "Ah, and how many pools does he clean?"

PROPMAN: "No, no, he clean his own pool everyday"

LD: "Does he do anything else?"

PROPMAN:"Yes, yes, he cut the grass every week"

LD: "Right, give me the details and we'll look into it right away"

PROPMAN:"Yes, yes, you get him good, falang working, no good"

LD: "Quite right sir"

Right what do think will happen next?

A: Labour dept. opens a file, does tons of paperwork, pays a visit, arrests falang and deports him.

B: Nothing.

C: Labour dept. opens a file, does tons of paperwork, pays a visit, see's situation and then goes away to do nothing.

Having had dealings for 18 years with the Labour Department I can say in my experience they are for the most part one of the better, more professional and sympathetic departments that we falangs have to deal with so my vote is outcome B:90% or C:10%. If your really that concerned pop up to the Labour Department and ask them, you should be able to find someone to set you at your ease.

Just get on with it and enjoy your properly cleaned pool.

PhiPhi (Steve)

[Geekfreaklover]

I would tell the proprty manager that you also do your own ironing but you don't have a work permit as a maid and that you do your own cooking and don't have a work permit as a cook and so he should go <deleted> himself.

I agree. Maybe also add that you have a wife that you occasionaly pleasure, but are not a man-whore.

[canopy]

A Thai person will directly lose a substantial income due to a foreigner doing the work himself. If this isn't a clearcut case of where a work permit must be obtained, then what is? I do not agree with the law nor being forced to get ripped off like this case, but there is no denying the cold hard facts.

[PhiPhi]

A Thai person will directly lose a substantial income due to a foreigner doing the work himself. If this isn't a clearcut case of where a work permit must be obtained, then what is? I do not agree with the law nor being forced to get ripped off like this case, but there is no denying the cold hard facts.

Clearcut? Cold hard facts? Hardly, I absolutely am denying them, here's a few actual facts that you can check for yourself.

The Labour Department guidelines define work for the purposes of a work permit as follows:

"WORK : the engagement in work by exerting energy or using knowledge for purpose of obtaining wages or other benefits." source: http://www.doe.go.th/workpermit/

First it has nothing to do with "A Thai person will directly lose a substantial income due to a foreigner doing the work himself."

Second no wages are obtained

That leaves us with the other benefits part:

Facile interpretations aside benefits would have to be provable financial gain or benefit in kind.

If the lease is worded something like "The Lessee shall maintain of the pool and keep it clean at all times" then no problem.

If for some unfathomable reason it was worded "The Lessor shall provide an x baht reduction in rent in consideration of the Lessee performing pool maintenance" there could technically be a problem but unlikely to be pursued.

PhiPhi (Steve)