Female Circumcision In The South

[reallyok]

I am a christian ( not practising) with a Thai Bhuddist partner. She was previously 'married' ? to a Muslim, but could not accept the religeon ! When she left, she was not allowed to have her two young children as their father insisted they be brought up as Muslims by his mother. The children are aged 8 yrs, a boy and a beautiful 7 yr old girl. My partner, tells, me that the father spends most of his time with a muslim lady in northern Malaysia whilst the children live with his mother in Pattani. However the father says that it is time for both the children to be circumcised and that although she has no objection to the son having this done, she has to accept that her daughter be circumcised, and that she has no say in the matter.

I am 'horrified'................is there anything that she can do to stop this barbaric practice of mutilation of her daughter.

[Sheryl]

She was "not allowed" to have custody of the children by whom? Does the husband have legal full custody? As the children's mother, unless there has been a court order denying her parental rights and awarding them to someone else, she has a full right to both have the children with her and participate in all medical decisions for them. Indeed, if she was not legally married to the father, then he may not have any legal right to the children at all in which case she alone can legally give consent to a medical procedure.

A local doctor or hospital is not going to know the situation, though, and if the grandmother or father brings the kids in would have no reason to doubt that they have parental rights. So all this could happen before the mother has had time to take legal steps. In addition, the children might be taken out of country into Malaysia and thus out of the jurisdiction of Thai courts...and into a place where the fact that the biological father is Muslim would probably render the children Muslim in the court's eyes and thus subject to Islamic family law.

I therefore suggest -- again assuming the mother has not been legally denied custody of the children -- that the first step be to get them physically in her charge and somewhere that the father's family get can't hold of them. Through whatever ruse is most likely to work...take them out for a day and just don't bring them back, pick them up at school or whatever. Do not do this if there has in fact been a custody ruling against the mother, because in that case it would constitute kidnapping. But assuming she is the biological mother and there has never been a legal ruling that took away or limited her rights as parent, there is no crime in her taking her own children.

Do that first, then immediately contact the Dept of Child Welfare (not sure the Thai name for this) And, if you can possibly afford it, also consult a lawyer specializing in family law. I am moving this to the family forum where there are more likely to be folks who can tell you the exact name and contact info o f the relevant government agency and also recommend such a lawyer.

If she has been denied custody by a Thai court, or a joint custody been decreed that legally bars her from taking the children anywhere without the father's consent, then just follow the paragraph above, But if as I suspect there has not been any court ruling on this, do immediately get the children away from the grandmother and somewhere that family can't easily locate them, then initiate legal action.

[CTO]

Firstly Female Circumcision, a vile practise is done by "Christian" and "Muslim" communities in Africa, it's not a Muslim tradition just as it's not a Muslim one, it's a cultural tradition.

First I've heard of it practised in the South, given I work there on and off with communities, I find it odd that this is alleged to happen.

I'd be asking a lot more questions of your partner and the good advice above.

[bina]

curious actually, here, jewish religoius family law gives the mother preferential custody for girls of all ages and boys up to age 3, after, the father can fight in religious court for the boys unless one partner is not practicing religoius even if of that religioun in which case the preference goes to the practicing relgious partner;

muslem law gives preference to the muslem partner first, even if it is the father, for boys and girls...as muslem religious law says offspring of muslem father are considered muslem.

here we have both religius court and civil family court for both religiousn (complex) and couples can choose to use only religious court or can also go to civil court but cannot circumvent the religious court either way.... would southern thai muslems have this same set up? it could be that they used the waqf muslem family law and therefore the father got preference. that might not be legally binding in thailand but it is binding among the muslem community and in their eyes legally binding.

bina

israel

[IanForbes]

It is an abhorant practise that even the radical muslim husband later learn to regret. It causes no end of physical problems and the woman no longer enjoys any of the closeness that brings men and women together. After the woman has been circumcised she basically has to be raped by her husband.

Every country has its own laws regarding this ancient practise and I'd certainly look into the legalities of it happening in Thailand.

[rodentwarrior]

Am I the only one who also believes that male circumcision is also an outdated and frankly barbaric act against little innocent boys?

[Sheryl]

I don't think Southern Thailand has a dual legal system for Muslims. I think Thai law pertains here. Malaysia however does, hence my concern about the children being taken there.

I have heard of female circumscision being practiced among Thai Muslims altho I gather it is a more "mild" procedure than that done elsewehere, possibly just the fopeskin of the clitorisis. In any case, unnecesessary/inadvisable and also just the first of what are likely to be a serious of worsening problems, this lady needs to get physical and (if she does not already have it) total legal custody of her children. Especially the daughter.

Now before we go off on tangents about circumscision, male or female, can anyone please advise the name and contact number of the Thai government agency for child welfare whom this mother could contact?

And some recs for lawyers specializing in Thai family law might also help.

[dddave]

The FGC (Female Genital Cutting) generally practiced in Malaysia is benign in comparison to the clitoral amputations and infibulations prevalent in the Horn of Africa, Egypt and Central Africa.

It usually involves a pinprick drawing a drop of blood or as illustrated in a New York Times photo essay several years ago, a small snip of the clitoral hood. It is usually performed from infancy to six years old. While not pleasant for the victim, it falls short of mutilation.

[reallyok]

She was "not allowed" to have custody of the children by whom? Does the husband have legal full custody? As the children's mother, unless there has been a court order denying her parental rights and awarding them to someone else, she has a full right to both have the children with her and participate in all medical decisions for them. Indeed, if she was not legally married to the father, then he may not have any legal right to the children at all in which case she alone can legally give consent to a medical procedure.

A local doctor or hospital is not going to know the situation, though, and if the grandmother or father brings the kids in would have no reason to doubt that they have parental rights. So all this could happen before the mother has had time to take legal steps. In addition, the children might be taken out of country into Malaysia and thus out of the jurisdiction of Thai courts...and into a place where the fact that the biological father is Muslim would probably render the children Muslim in the court's eyes and thus subject to Islamic family law.

I therefore suggest -- again assuming the mother has not been legally denied custody of the children -- that the first step be to get them physically in her charge and somewhere that the father's family get can't hold of them. Through whatever ruse is most likely to work...take them out for a day and just don't bring them back, pick them up at school or whatever. Do not do this if there has in fact been a custody ruling against the mother, because in that case it would constitute kidnapping. But assuming she is the biological mother and there has never been a legal ruling that took away or limited her rights as parent, there is no crime in her taking her own children.

Do that first, then immediately contact the Dept of Child Welfare (not sure the Thai name for this) And, if you can possibly afford it, also consult a lawyer specializing in family law. I am moving this to the family forum where there are more likely to be folks who can tell you the exact name and contact info o f the relevant government agency and also recommend such a lawyer.

If she has been denied custody by a Thai court, or a joint custody been decreed that legally bars her from taking the children anywhere without the father's consent, then just follow the paragraph above, But if as I suspect there has not been any court ruling on this, do immediately get the children away from the grandmother and somewhere that family can't easily locate them, then initiate legal action.

NO, there has been no legal action whatsoever.

The father gained custody personaly by showing her his handgun, telling her that if she did not do as he says he will shoot the children in front of her before shooting her. He is a violent man whom she fears................ would you risk your childrens life, knowing that he means what he says and could easily disappear over the border into Malaysia.

By the way, she is quite intelligent, with a uni degree and has her own business.

We have no real idea to what extent he intends the female circumcision so it could be just the "simple" pricking as previously mentioned. However in my opinion its still unnecessary mutilation.

The mother now refuses to confer with me further as she says that he will find out and could loose his temper.

[reallyok]

Am I the only one who also believes that male circumcision is also an outdated and frankly barbaric act against little innocent boys?

Well, having spent 18 yrs in the Brit armed forces from the age of 15 and having seen uncircumcised mates suffer, i thank god that i was circumcised as a baby and have no recollection of the procedure

[Boo]

and having seen uncircumcised mates suffer

suffer from what? Genuinely curious.

[Flatouthruthefog]

and having seen uncircumcised mates suffer

suffer from what? Genuinely curious.

As an uncircumcised western male, I too am curious.

I learned in my 20's that the practice was very sensible many decades ago in hot countries where frequent and careful, detailed, washing was not possible. Was thate the case in the forces?

I think the human body (male and female) was very well designed (or, sorry, evolved) and - especially now - there is no need for crude modifications. I've generally got the idea from circumcised chums that (1) they are de-sensitised but (2) many female partners prefer their situation.

When our boy was born in Thailand almost 5 years ago my Thai wife and I agreed that there was no way anyone was going to cut him off in his prime.

[Naam]

and having seen uncircumcised mates suffer

suffer from what? Genuinely curious.

they suffered because they had to bear Reallyok's senseless claims for 18 years

[reallyok]

and having seen uncircumcised mates suffer

suffer from what? Genuinely curious.

Mainly infection ! also a painful tight foreskin

[reallyok]

and having seen uncircumcised mates suffer

suffer from what? Genuinely curious.

As an uncircumcised western male, I too am curious.

I learned in my 20's that the practice was very sensible many decades ago in hot countries where frequent and careful, detailed, washing was not possible. Was thate the case in the forces?

I think the human body (male and female) was very well designed (or, sorry, evolved) and - especially now - there is no need for crude modifications. I've generally got the idea from circumcised chums that (1) they are de-sensitised but (2) many female partners prefer their situation.

When our boy was born in Thailand almost 5 years ago my Thai wife and I agreed that there was no way anyone was going to cut him off in his prime.

Well it certianly did not de-sensitise me

[reallyok]

and having seen uncircumcised mates suffer

suffer from what? Genuinely curious.

they suffered because they had to bear Reallyok's senseless claims for 18 years

Smart prick hey !!!

[Boo]

I know it can be an issue for a very small percentage of men but it certainly isn't for the majority & imo is not a good enough reason to circumcise my son on the very small off chance he might have an issue later in life. I would rather he get to make that choice & for that reason alone, choice, don't personally agree with the practice.

[JRinger]

and having seen uncircumcised mates suffer

suffer from what? Genuinely curious.

they suffered because they had to bear Reallyok's senseless claims for 18 years

Smart prick hey !!!

Concur, naam is the self-appointed Guru of gold & foreskin.

Edited April 14, 2010 by JRinger

[Naam]

and having seen uncircumcised mates suffer

suffer from what? Genuinely curious.

1. Mainly infection !

2. also a painful tight foreskin

1. water rationing in the British Army? showers saturdays only?

2. hmmm...

[bjoe97]

Am I the only one who also believes that male circumcision is also an outdated and frankly barbaric act against little innocent boys?

maybe, i much prefer it

so do most ladys

it is much cleaner and looks much better

ever seen a uncut porn star ( bar the prince of one particular country!)

[bina]

never saw one not cut til i married my husband.... here its the norm, only, as i found out yesterday at the brit mila (ritual circumcision of friend's grandson) they now give the babies paracetamol before the snip. the snip is still done by a ritual 'snipper' but nowadays they all have to have gone through a medical course for ritual circumcisers and not just an apprenticeship. btw, the 'mohel' always calls up the new mother to find out if there are problems, and also, any boy not have been 'snipped' will feel very very self concious in army, swimming pool, sauna, or any where else , even with a girl, if not been circumcised as here it would mean 'not jewish' (or 'not muslem' for the muslems' here ). both groups think it is barbaric and disgusting to not have been circumcised. (we discussed this one day at work, or more then one day actually as we discuss lots of wierd things in the night shift... some not fit for print probably)...

either way, not the discussion here and i think female circumcision if its not the ritual drop of blood is more 'invasive'.

as for dealing with the woman's children /problems, she may have to talk with a religious elder to speak with the father. it helps here, so it might help there too (among muslem groups)

bina

israel

[popmybubble]

ever seen a uncut porn star ( bar the prince of one particular country!)

Actually, yes quite a few. Not sure if any were American, but definitely British/Asian dudes.

[reallyok]

and having seen uncircumcised mates suffer

suffer from what? Genuinely curious.

1. Mainly infection !

2. also a painful tight foreskin

1. water rationing in the British Army? showers saturdays only?

2. hmmm...

I think that Naam has been listening to the 'big boys ' again

[Gerryasia]

Am I the only one who also believes that male circumcision is also an outdated and frankly barbaric act against little innocent boys?

Disagree......BOTH the men and the women love and appreciate it later in life.

If not for hygienic reasons alone...

Kao Jai?

[TigerWan]

Am I the only one who also believes that male circumcision is also an outdated and frankly barbaric act against little innocent boys?

I agree, were you arguing with that odious online editor at an unmentionable news site over this? ( gawd, I can't stand that woman.. )

I wish we would stop calling this practice of female clitorectomy as " circumcision ". While I don't agree little boys should be circumcised, the vast majority don't have their ability to have an orgasm removed like the girls do.

It is mutilation.

[TigerWan]

Well it certianly did not de-sensitise me

Were you done before you started having erections? If so, how do you know you aren't desensitized ?

[katana]

Well it certianly did not de-sensitise me

Were you done before you started having erections? If so, how do you know you aren't desensitized ?

...i thank god that i was circumcised as a baby and have no recollection of the procedure...

I've seen posts on this before where people who had it done later in life say they did lose sensitivity after it was done.

[torrenova]

Am I the only one who also believes that male circumcision is also an outdated and frankly barbaric act against little innocent boys?

I agree, were you arguing with that odious online editor at an unmentionable news site over this? ( gawd, I can't stand that woman.. )

I wish we would stop calling this practice of female clitorectomy as " circumcision ". While I don't agree little boys should be circumcised, the vast majority don't have their ability to have an orgasm removed like the girls do.

It is mutilation.

I agree. The jews get away with it because of their political influence else it would be outlawed and these koran bashers are just truly barbaric.