Bangkok Residents Become Hostages To Red-Shirt Anarchy

[Thai at Heart]

[in my village in Surin, there is 0% supporting the redshirt protest. There used to be 60% THAI RAK THAI/PHEU THAI supporters.

Interesting. I've just come back from spending a week in a village in Surin. Based on informal conversations with many folks in the village, listening to their banter etc I would put the distribution there at about:

Pro-Red: 70%

Pro-Government: 10%

Undecided: 20%

To be expected. The heartlands of TRT aren't likely to change their views any time soon.

It was also very interesting that they all know that my wife and I are pro-government. They made no attempt to push their beliefs or criticize ours. In fact, they generally preferred to steer any political conversation to safer topics to avoid any potential confrontation or hard feelings. It was something like - yes we have our beliefs and you have yours. You all are here for a holiday so let's just enjoy each other's company while you are here - friends, family, fun. I was rather impressed by this attitude.

Very similar with my wife's family, although I have to travel up to Isaan very regularly for business and spend a lot of time out and about near Kalasin.

My wife's family are normally very reticent, but a cousin of hers who is in the police let go the other day about Abhisit doesn't care about the countryside and he can't understand how life is up here. People spouted up about the army and how they don't let the people really have a true say. It was quite a speech and basically everyone was nodding in agreement.

As for the farmers themselves, well they are so piss poor that I can't blame them for loving Thaksin. But also they don't understand what the current government is trying to do for them so that is the next job for the Dems to carry out. They need to get their story out there.

[anotherpeter]

Maybe the government of national unity is going to be tried

Yes maybe

Frankly i see no other alternative ,short of using force, to end the current standoff

and prevent future ones .

Thaksin does not want "government of national unity".

Thaksin wants control of the army. The current army leadership will not allow that.

A government that Thaksin doesn't control can not give him control of the army.

[anotherpeter]

I don't see much anarchic behaviour from the crowds themselves. The speeches are filled with rhetoric and are bloody monotonous, but the crowd watching all seems very much under control. I don't think they understand the reality of amaryata, or whether they feel that it still exists. What I believe they do feel is that their labour makes a lot of people in Bangkok extremely wealthy and that this at least deserves recognition and some reciprocity from any government in terms of giving back more to the countryside instead of being continuously Bangkok centric.

On a lighter note, I can just see Nivea's latest TV adverts.

"Oh dear, what a fabulous tan. Where have you been? Cannes, Maldives, at least Phuket, oh, please do tell!"

"No I hung out in front of Central World for the holidays."

Do the reds ever comment about the local business people being extremely rich? Do they ever talk about their leaders being extremely rich?

[JacknDanny]

Its nice to see the UK government dissolving parliament in a few days and then calling elections in a month (yes just 1 month).

Its easy to do and why are the Democrats/BJT not doing it ?

Of course, should it happen to be that way that there is "vote buying" it takes lots of time to get money into various bank accounts via 3rd and 4th parties so you then hand it out during election campaigns, firstly you must borrow from Japan and other countries, then you must have some big government stimulus projects, then it must be siphoned off and spread about and then moved around and then put into small amounts. The last part possibly takes 9 months. Lets hope none of that happens and THailand has clean elections.

So to prevent the chances of vote buying, a snap election in a month or two would be great for Thailand and great for Democracy !!

If Gordon can, so can you Abhisit !

Honestly, do you ever think first before writing?

If you call someone, I think you Americans call it, Dumbass, Is that flaming??

Hmmm, best not I guess

[anotherpeter]

can we be reasonable and agree that 15 days is an impossibility? An election cannot be held on such short notice. What Abhisit could do is say, ok, I'll dissolve the house, but in 30 days. This will give us time to prepare for an election. He could then hold the election in 90 days. As he was acting PM, he would still be in power. That makes it 4 months. The downside is that 90 days of campaigning would make everyone go batty with the incessant loudspeakers.

Just me pondering. This protest isn't going anywhere now and the government isn't going anywhere either. Although General Prawit seems to think he can send the demonstrators on their way.

I don't think Abhisit has said that it is impossible to have elections so quickly.

He has said that he doesn't want an election so soon because of the budget and because (especially) of the army reshuffle.

The current government and army leadership does not want a Thaksin controlled government in charge of the army reshuffle.

[blaze]

On a lighter note, I can just see Nivea's latest TV adverts.

"Oh dear, what a fabulous tan. Where have you been? Cannes, Maldives, at least Phuket, oh, please do tell!"

"No I hung out in front of Central World for the holidays."

Now that is FUNNY!!!!

[anotherpeter]

[in my village in Surin, there is 0% supporting the redshirt protest. There used to be 60% THAI RAK THAI/PHEU THAI supporters.

Interesting. I've just come back from spending a week in a village in Surin. Based on informal conversations with many folks in the village, listening to their banter etc I would put the distribution there at about:

Pro-Red: 70%

Pro-Government: 10%

Undecided: 20%

That would be about correct for the majority of the country, a small amount of Yellow, a large amount of Red and a few with no colour.

Of course down South (sparse population) it the Yellow and Red figures would reverse but they are a minority of the Thai population.

I think Abhisit knows this, which is why he is not attacking the reds for fear of losing even more support in the next election.

Annupong also knows this IMO, which is why he is doing nothing too.

The only people who do not "accept" this are the Yellows and the English language papers and other papers under "Yellow" control.

Actually, in the last election the votes for the PPP and Democrats weren't too different. The PPP got more votes for directly elected MPs and the Democrats got more votes (just) for the proportional party list MPs.

But neither got a majority. So they both had to rely on coalitions with the smaller parties to form government.

That probably won't change much now or if elections are held in 9 or 21 months. Maybe some of the smaller parties will lose votes because people don't like the fact that they supported both the PPP AND the Democrats.

IMO, the reds will probably lose some votes. There are many comments on TV that people used to vote for Thaksin parties, but no longer support them, and very few, if any, that voted for others that have changed their minds.

And certainly if "free and fair" elections are held, and everyone can campaign without fear of being attacked, then I think the reds will lose even more votes.

[moresomekl]

can we be reasonable and agree that 15 days is an impossibility? An election cannot be held on such short notice. What Abhisit could do is say, ok, I'll dissolve the house, but in 30 days. This will give us time to prepare for an election. He could then hold the election in 90 days. As he was acting PM, he would still be in power. That makes it 4 months. The downside is that 90 days of campaigning would make everyone go batty with the incessant loudspeakers.

Just me pondering. This protest isn't going anywhere now and the government isn't going anywhere either. Although General Prawit seems to think he can send the demonstrators on their way.

I don't think Abhisit has said that it is impossible to have elections so quickly.

He has said that he doesn't want an election so soon because of the budget and because (especially) of the army reshuffle.

The current government and army leadership does not want a Thaksin controlled government in charge of the army reshuffle.

Abhisit also said that time is needed for things to cool down .

Agree with what you say on the military and the budget .

[blaze]

Very similar with my wife's family, although I have to travel up to Isaan very regularly for business and spend a lot of time out and about near Kalasin.

My wife's family are normally very reticent, but a cousin of hers who is in the police let go the other day about Abhisit doesn't care about the countryside and he can't understand how life is up here. People spouted up about the army and how they don't let the people really have a true say. It was quite a speech and basically everyone was nodding in agreement.

As for the farmers themselves, well they are so piss poor that I can't blame them for loving Thaksin. But also they don't understand what the current government is trying to do for them so that is the next job for the Dems to carry out. They need to get their story out there.

BUt the one thing the Dems can never give them- is the government that was 'taken' from them (regardless of why). And unlike the Assembly of the Poor and even the red shirt rhetoric of several months ago- this new focus on the royalist/military/civil service establishment is probably a whole new paradigm shift at the grass roots level.

Interestingly- and foreign papers have commented on this- there is no apparent animosity to the rich in Bangkok- no sense that these people are the 'enemy'- the 'exploiters' ---the real animosity, even more than that directed at Abhisit appears to be directed at Prem- the (perceived) figure head of all that is systemically conservative --and that speaks volumes. IMHO.

[moresomekl]

Maybe the government of national unity is going to be tried

Yes maybe

Frankly i see no other alternative ,short of using force, to end the current standoff

and prevent future ones .

Thaksin does not want "government of national unity".

Thaksin wants control of the army. The current army leadership will not allow that.

A government that Thaksin doesn't control can not give him control of the army.

Thaksin is no longer in control (except of the heart and mind of many upcountry folks) .

The whole PT are not robots of Thaksin !!!

[Thai at Heart]

I don't see much anarchic behaviour from the crowds themselves. The speeches are filled with rhetoric and are bloody monotonous, but the crowd watching all seems very much under control. I don't think they understand the reality of amaryata, or whether they feel that it still exists. What I believe they do feel is that their labour makes a lot of people in Bangkok extremely wealthy and that this at least deserves recognition and some reciprocity from any government in terms of giving back more to the countryside instead of being continuously Bangkok centric.

On a lighter note, I can just see Nivea's latest TV adverts.

"Oh dear, what a fabulous tan. Where have you been? Cannes, Maldives, at least Phuket, oh, please do tell!"

"No I hung out in front of Central World for the holidays."

Do the reds ever comment about the local business people being extremely rich? Do they ever talk about their leaders being extremely rich?

No. I don't understand why they see local rich people as more acceptable than distant rich people. I think they can't see a way to avoid being under the yoke of someone one way or another. I think they don't understand how to break the system that has put them where they are, so are simply willing to follow anyone who says they will help. This is why they look to the government.

The one thing I can guarantee you is that they don't know the margin that is sitting in the middle man's hands. That is the best kept secret around. You would be surprised how loyal farmers are to their local middle man, despite this apparent duplicity. Even more so, they don't appear to know the price from sale from them to export, even though for some commodities it is published. Also, the local middle man is local by proximity, but he is not local by origin if you know what I mean. Generally he is not "one of us". They don't see the way out being from getting better prices from their produce, but that the government must solve their problems. They don't see a way out from their labours alone.

Call it simple, but if you perceived you had nothing to lose, wouldn't you follow someone if they promised something better at the end, rather than sit in the status quo. Don't forget the system has largely inculcated them to believe they should just accept the natural order of things.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Thai at Heart

[moresomekl]

Very similar with my wife's family, although I have to travel up to Isaan very regularly for business and spend a lot of time out and about near Kalasin.

My wife's family are normally very reticent, but a cousin of hers who is in the police let go the other day about Abhisit doesn't care about the countryside and he can't understand how life is up here. People spouted up about the army and how they don't let the people really have a true say. It was quite a speech and basically everyone was nodding in agreement.

As for the farmers themselves, well they are so piss poor that I can't blame them for loving Thaksin. But also they don't understand what the current government is trying to do for them so that is the next job for the Dems to carry out. They need to get their story out there.

Good post . My gf is from nearby Khorat (small village) and of course pro Thaksin 100%.

The dems REALLY need to get their story out .

[animatic]

so you think those thai people in facebook are actually farang with multiple account (200,000) and made up their thai names and writing thai scripts on facebook?

i think you haven't eaten yet.

One person can sign up 100,000 user names, there are no restictions. Google translate can write in Thai for you.

If 10,000 PAD members signed up for 20 names each, you have 200K.

Think about it, why would anyone put a "poll" on facebook which the majority of the millions of Thai people do not even use ?????? Unless its there as a tool of the Yellow shirt PAD.

It is not representative of anything due the ease with which it can be manipulated and abused.

Just because your upcountry red parents and grand parents don't use modern technology,

it is sure that their KIDS beg borrow and steal to get Internet Cafe time.

The little ones LIVE for their techno fix and hang out there and watch over shoulders

if they haven't the money to connect themselves.

In particular young ladies are very tech savy, they use it to hunt

for a comfortably well off and intelligent man, or sometimes lady,

to make their lives better. And some of the men have figured

this out and look right back.

This is one of the reasons some 'thai moralist' attempt to ban Hi5 and Facebook,

because they think it is fronts for prostitution or free sex.

So what if millions of Thais don't use facebook,

millions of other Thais also DO use facebook.

[anotherpeter]

BUt the one thing the Dems can never give them- is the government that was 'taken' from them (regardless of why). And unlike the Assembly of the Poor and even the red shirt rhetoric of several months ago- this new focus on the royalist/military/civil service establishment is probably a whole new paradigm shift at the grass roots level.

Interestingly- and foreign papers have commented on this- there is no apparent animosity to the rich in Bangkok- no sense that these people are the 'enemy'- the 'exploiters' ---the real animosity, even more than that directed at Abhisit appears to be directed at Prem- the (perceived) figure head of all that is systemically conservative --and that speaks volumes. IMHO.

The reds could still effect the change that they want without going back to the Thaksin government (actual, not puppet).

They have got their message out there and their core values (democracy, look after the poor) are well accepted.

But the reds main message of "Bring back Thaksin, he will solve all the problems" is the one that gets most people off side. Even if you say that isn't their main message, it is out there enough to cause people to reject them.

[animatic]

Very similar with my wife's family, although I have to travel up to Isaan very regularly for business and spend a lot of time out and about near Kalasin.

My wife's family are normally very reticent, but a cousin of hers who is in the police let go the other day about Abhisit doesn't care about the countryside and he can't understand how life is up here. People spouted up about the army and how they don't let the people really have a true say. It was quite a speech and basically everyone was nodding in agreement.

As for the farmers themselves, well they are so piss poor that I can't blame them for loving Thaksin. But also they don't understand what the current government is trying to do for them so that is the next job for the Dems to carry out. They need to get their story out there.

Good post . My gf is from nearby Khorat (small village) and of course pro Thaksin 100%.

The dems REALLY need to get their story out .

Well therein lies the real problem for free and fair elections.

The TRT/ PPP / PTP street branches work effectively using violence,

and intimidation to prevent ALL other voices from being heard up north.

Control the information, control the people.

Control how the people think, by demonizing the opposition,

and never letting the opposition speak for themselves, you win elections.

And thus control.

Of course they need to get their message out,

and it is being blocked and being replaced by lies

and half truths twisted the local puyai's and their masterss benefits.

the

[quiksilva]

What I believe they do feel is that their labour makes a lot of people in Bangkok extremely wealthy and that this at least deserves recognition and some reciprocity from any government in terms of giving back more to the countryside instead of being continuously Bangkok centric.

I don't think this problem needs recognition, I mean its hardly ground breaking..

Newsflash!!: Poor people found working for rich people!

Update!!: Rich people prefer to live in big cities!

OK that's flippant, but if you look at investment policies most are actually geared towards providing better (really attractive) incentives the further you are away from Bangkok, however tax benefits only go so far.

Most of the long term sustainable policies that address the real drivers for investment (education and logistics) have been implemented by the Democrats or have been further strengthened under the current administration, and now they are bring in even more. (e.g. farmers debt moratorium).

Even so there is only so much that can be done. Its not possible to make Isaan closer to the seaport, so with out education and logistical advantages why else should firms go there? Cost? Possible, but its the very thing you don't want to see, because it will keep labour costs low, and you'll hear yet more cries of the poor being down trodden, and money being made off their backs (as it always is everywhere else in the world... except true communist states)

The problem is that everyone expects these problems to be solved over night, and they won't be, by anyone. Oh, a few short term populist policies might help ease the burden for a month or two but the real problems take generations to solve.

A better educated workforce in the North East for example might help, but what will keep them in the NE? How to prevent the lure of the big mango?

What we are really asking, what can be done to counter this trend of urbanisation?

The answers I'm afraid, is that there is very little that a government of any colour can do.

The people must ultimately help themselves, choose to stay and improve their home towns. Innovate and create local businesses for themselves. This is something that governments can support and encourage, but ultimately its the people who must take initiative

Perhaps there should be more SME or business incubation support, or even more available micro financing in certain provinces?

All of this has been acknowledged and recognised by the current administration, but why have the Reds not asked for it?

To say this is all about the coup and all about democracy does not wash I'm afraid. The coup was four years ago and these problems have been around for a lot longer than that. So why now? Why just after Thaksin lost his money?

[LevelHead]

Very similar with my wife's family, although I have to travel up to Isaan very regularly for business and spend a lot of time out and about near Kalasin.

My wife's family are normally very reticent, but a cousin of hers who is in the police let go the other day about Abhisit doesn't care about the countryside and he can't understand how life is up here. People spouted up about the army and how they don't let the people really have a true say. It was quite a speech and basically everyone was nodding in agreement.

As for the farmers themselves, well they are so piss poor that I can't blame them for loving Thaksin. But also they don't understand what the current government is trying to do for them so that is the next job for the Dems to carry out. They need to get their story out there.

Good post . My gf is from nearby Khorat (small village) and of course pro Thaksin 100%.

The dems REALLY need to get their story out .

Well therein lies the real problem for free and fair elections.

The TRT/ PPP / PTP street branches work effectively using violence,

and intimidation to prevent ALL other voices from being heard up north.

Control the information, control the people.

Control how the people think, by demonizing the opposition,

and never letting the opposition speak for themselves, you win elections.

And thus control.

Of course they need to get their message out,

and it is being blocked and being replaced by lies

and half truths twisted the local puyai's and their masterss benefits.

the

Yes, its a massive problem with most of the media moguls being Yellow.

They support only "anti Thaksin" rhetoric.

Even the army allocated budgets and spent money "educating" the poor on how to be anti-Thaksin.

With so much of the media and so much effort by government agencies against them its a wonder the PPP won the last election.

But there you go, the people are stronger than the word twisters and biased media.

The Yellow supporters here will not let you know that much money and effort was spent against the PPP last election, and still the Democrats lost.

[animatic]

Maybe the government of national unity is going to be tried

Yes maybe

Frankly i see no other alternative ,short of using force, to end the current standoff

and prevent future ones .

Well we can see a government of national unity equivalent in the Parliament right now.

PTP coalition vs Dems Coalition... put these together in one cabinet what do you get...?

A equal amount of DISSING and DIS-FUNCTIONING as Parliament when PTP is in residence,

and only adding that PTP are getting some of their ministers into positions at the trough,

and also able to throw monkey wrenches in the Dems works.

This is a non-starter in the current climate.

[animatic]

Yes the appropriate word is DUMBASS.

As in 'Dumbass propaganda comments'.

Edited April 7, 2010 by animatic

[anotherpeter]

Maybe the government of national unity is going to be tried

Yes maybe

Frankly i see no other alternative ,short of using force, to end the current standoff

and prevent future ones .

Thaksin does not want "government of national unity".

Thaksin wants control of the army. The current army leadership will not allow that.

A government that Thaksin doesn't control can not give him control of the army.

Thaksin is no longer in control (except of the heart and mind of many upcountry folks) .

The whole PT are not robots of Thaksin !!!

Thaksin is in control of the reds. He may not be in control of the PTP, maybe some of the MPs though.

Regardless of who is in the "government of national unity", Thaksin will not control it. That will not be acceptable to Thaksin. Therefore, the reds will not accept it.

Edited April 7, 2010 by anotherpeter

[blaze]

BUt the one thing the Dems can never give them- is the government that was 'taken' from them (regardless of why). And unlike the Assembly of the Poor and even the red shirt rhetoric of several months ago- this new focus on the royalist/military/civil service establishment is probably a whole new paradigm shift at the grass roots level.

Interestingly- and foreign papers have commented on this- there is no apparent animosity to the rich in Bangkok- no sense that these people are the 'enemy'- the 'exploiters' ---the real animosity, even more than that directed at Abhisit appears to be directed at Prem- the (perceived) figure head of all that is systemically conservative --and that speaks volumes. IMHO.

The reds could still effect the change that they want without going back to the Thaksin government (actual, not puppet).

They have got their message out there and their core values (democracy, look after the poor) are well accepted.

But the reds main message of "Bring back Thaksin, he will solve all the problems" is the one that gets most people off side. Even if you say that isn't their main message, it is out there enough to cause people to reject them.

Again, I wonder if they really believe that THaksin and THaksin alone is the only possible champion of their cause- or if he is merely the symbol of the way in which any champion of their cause will be cast out by the establishment. While there is no doubt the economics play a part in all this- it could also be a genuine expression of a desire to have their democratically expressed preferences respected by the establishment (however they define that term). THaksin then becomes a martyr to the cause- but not the cause alone. (Martyrs don't use the masses nearly as much as the masses use the martyrs).

Edited April 7, 2010 by blaze

[LevelHead]

Good post . My gf is from nearby Khorat (small village) and of course pro Thaksin 100%.

The dems REALLY need to get their story out .

What story would that be ?

Have borrowed money and put Thailand into debt but nobody knows where the money went ? Have committed electon fraud and got away with a Yellow card only (thanks elite) ? Have put the eilte first and the people and democracy in second place ? Do not care about the concerns of the majority of the Thai population ? Are happy to be put into power by the elite when the people never elected them to power ? Have likely received illegal donations and should be dissolved but are managing to keep that under wraps and prevent any resolution being made on the case ?

The truth of the matter is the last elections were held under the control of the coup appointed government. Massive amounts of money were spent "educating" the PPP area's in why they should not vote PPP it seems. Massive amounts of intelligence gathering was done on all PPP candidates, where they went, who they spoke to, what they did etc..

And yet, even under those conditions PPP won.

If elections were held now for sure PPP would win with a big majority, which is why the "appointed and not elected" present government do not want elections.

Follow the UK example, call an election in a month and dissolve the House.

[quiksilva]

BUt the one thing the Dems can never give them- is the government that was 'taken' from them (regardless of why). And unlike the Assembly of the Poor and even the red shirt rhetoric of several months ago- this new focus on the royalist/military/civil service establishment is probably a whole new paradigm shift at the grass roots level.

Interestingly- and foreign papers have commented on this- there is no apparent animosity to the rich in Bangkok- no sense that these people are the 'enemy'- the 'exploiters' ---the real animosity, even more than that directed at Abhisit appears to be directed at Prem- the (perceived) figure head of all that is systemically conservative --and that speaks volumes. IMHO.

The reds could still effect the change that they want without going back to the Thaksin government (actual, not puppet).

They have got their message out there and their core values (democracy, look after the poor) are well accepted.

But the reds main message of "Bring back Thaksin, he will solve all the problems" is the one that gets most people off side. Even if you say that isn't their main message, it is out there enough to cause people to reject them.

Again, I wonder if they really believe that THaksin and THaksin alone is the only possible champion of their cause- or if he is merely the symbol of the way in which any champion of their cause will be cast out by the establishment. While there is no doubt the economics play a part in all this- it could also be a genuine expression of a desire to have their democratically expressed preferences respected by the establishment (however they define that term). THaksin then becomes a martyr to the cause- but not the cause alone. (Martyrs don't use the masses nearly as much as the masses use the martyrs).

So what is their cause?

Why has this not been tabled at recent negotiations?

House dissolution on 15 days is the only thing I heard (I suppose it must be less than a week now), and why now?

The Democrats are entitled to another year in power have offered an early election this year, so again, why now?

Levelheaded speculation again. EC ruling on Democrats is due on April 20th

Edited April 7, 2010 by quiksilva

[animatic]

As I said... dumbass propaganda.

If you do it, it needs to be BELIEVABLE, for it to work.

Square head, Propaganda 101 is down the hall in room 223,

take a right at the toilets and don't look back.

But if you aren't going the propaganda route:

When I tell any truth,

it is not for the sake of convincing those who do not know it,

but for the sake of defending those that do.

~William Blake

...and the truth will make you free.

~John 8:31-32

Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad.

~Aldous Huxley

Truth, like milk, arrives in the dark

But even so, wise dogs don't bark.

Only mongrels make it hard

For the milkman to come up the yard.

~Christopher Morley, Dogs Don't Bark at the Milkman

It is error alone which needs the support of government.

Truth can stand by itself.

~Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia

The trouble about man is twofold.

He cannot learn truths which are too complicated;

he forgets truths which are too simple.

~Rebecca West

Truth only reveals itself when one gives up all preconceived ideas.

~Shoseki

It is a terrible thing for a man to find out suddenly that all his life

he has been speaking nothing but the truth.

~Oscar Wilde

Truth breeds hatred.

~Bias of Priene, Maxims

If you cannot find the truth right where you are,

where else do you expect to find it?

~Dogen

I am the fellow citizen of every being that thinks; my country is Truth.

~Alphonse de Lamartine, "Marseillaise of Peace," 1841

Like all dreamers, I mistook disenchantment for truth.

~Jean-Paul Sartre

Truth is a great flirt.

~Franz Liszt

I am of the Buddhists. The great Teacher comes periodically.

He is followed by pupils who corrupt the texts and

then a new Buddha must be born to reëstablish the truth.

~Martin H. Fischer

We swallow greedily any lie that flatters us,

but we sip only little by little at a truth we find bitter.

~Denis Diderot

All great truths begin as blasphemies.

~George Bernard Shaw, Annajanska, 1919

Man has always sacrificed truth to his vanity, comfort and advantage.

He lives... by make-believe.

~W. Somerset Maugham, The Summing Up, 1938

Every truth passes through three stages before it is recognized.

In the first, it is ridiculed, in the second it is opposed,

in the third it is regarded as self-evident.

~Arthur Schopenhauer

There is no truth. There is only perception.

~Gustave Flaubert

If a thousand old beliefs were ruined in our march to truth we must still march on.

~Stopford Brooke

The truth will set you free, but first it will make you miserable.

~Attributed to James A. Garfield

You are free to believe what you like.

But that doesn't change the truth from still being true.

~ Animatic

Edited April 7, 2010 by animatic

[moresomekl]

Thaksin is no longer in control (except of the heart and mind of many upcountry folks) .

The whole PT are not robots of Thaksin !!!

Thaksin is in control of the reds. He may not be in control of the PTP, maybe some of the MPs though.

Regardless of who is in the "government of national unity", Thaksin will not control it. That will not be acceptable to Thaksin. Therefore, the reds will not accept it.

Yes the red leaders are very unflexible so far , i concurr . Personally I think they are overestimating their power but thats not the point .

Then have the governement negociate with the PT .

[moresomekl]

Maybe the government of national unity is going to be tried

Yes maybe

Frankly i see no other alternative ,short of using force, to end the current standoff

and prevent future ones .

Well we can see a government of national unity equivalent in the Parliament right now.

PTP coalition vs Dems Coalition... put these together in one cabinet what do you get...?

A equal amount of DISSING and DIS-FUNCTIONING as Parliament when PTP is in residence,

and only adding that PTP are getting some of their ministers into positions at the trough,

and also able to throw monkey wrenches in the Dems works.

This is a non-starter in the current climate.

That has worked well in other democratic countries . Maybe in the case of Thailand it might not .

dunno

[way2muchcoffee]

Levelhead gives us a clear understanding of exactly why these demonstrations are taking place.

A massive and sustained propaganda war of lies, half-truths, hyperbole, and sprinkled with a few facts, has been waged for over a year in nearly every northern/northeastern village. People have been whipped into a frenzy and the truth no longer matters.

[animatic]

Levelhead gives us a clear understanding of exactly why these demonstrations are taking place.

A massive and sustained propaganda war of lies, half-truths, hyperbole, and sprinkled with a few facts, has been waged for over a year in nearly every northern/northeastern village. People have been whipped into a frenzy and the truth no longer matters.

Oh, it is MUCH longer than that...

[Neurath]

BUt the one thing the Dems can never give them- is the government that was 'taken' from them (regardless of why). And unlike the Assembly of the Poor and even the red shirt rhetoric of several months ago- this new focus on the royalist/military/civil service establishment is probably a whole new paradigm shift at the grass roots level.

Interestingly- and foreign papers have commented on this- there is no apparent animosity to the rich in Bangkok- no sense that these people are the 'enemy'- the 'exploiters' ---the real animosity, even more than that directed at Abhisit appears to be directed at Prem- the (perceived) figure head of all that is systemically conservative --and that speaks volumes. IMHO.

The reds could still effect the change that they want without going back to the Thaksin government (actual, not puppet).

They have got their message out there and their core values (democracy, look after the poor) are well accepted.

But the reds main message of "Bring back Thaksin, he will solve all the problems" is the one that gets most people off side. Even if you say that isn't their main message, it is out there enough to cause people to reject them.

Again, I wonder if they really believe that THaksin and THaksin alone is the only possible champion of their cause- or if he is merely the symbol of the way in which any champion of their cause will be cast out by the establishment. While there is no doubt the economics play a part in all this- it could also be a genuine expression of a desire to have their democratically expressed preferences respected by the establishment (however they define that term). THaksin then becomes a martyr to the cause- but not the cause alone. (Martyrs don't use the masses nearly as much as the masses use the martyrs).

"Nearly 60% of Thailand's workforce is involved in the agriculture industry but contributed to only 9.8% of the country's GDP in 2004. The services industry contributed towards 46.1% of Thailand's GDP and manufacturing 44.1% during the period."

I'd wager that major social dislocation will continue (particularly in the N.E.) as the percentage of those involved in agriculture decreases as it inevitably will. The only way to continue having 50-60% working in agriculture is to provide massive subsidies, transfer payments and and price supports - which will ultimately result in a transfer of state revenues to the likes of C.P. There will be more screaming regardless of political mechanics settled upon - the economics of the situation will ensure it (less people working on larger farms.) Mind you, I'm not advocating, merely observing.

[LevelHead]

Levelhead gives us a clear understanding of exactly why these demonstrations are taking place.

A massive and sustained propaganda war of lies, half-truths, hyperbole, and sprinkled with a few facts, has been waged for over a year in nearly every northern/northeastern village. People have been whipped into a frenzy and the truth no longer matters.

Not just a year, the Yellow side have been spreading the lies and half truths since before the coup. The people in the North and North-East have got sick of the lies and half truths and hyperbole spread by the Yellows since 2005.

They see the truth every day and are fed up of the Yellows control of the media and of power.

They want Democracy back.

Gordon Brown did it, you can too Abhisit, dissolve the House and call an election in a month !!