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[GuestHouse]

Jingjing, I came here to make a living, if I can't make a living here I'll go elsewhere.

But here's a thing, I've been here making a living before when there's been blood on the streets of Bangkok - Let me tell you it was business as usual then, and I have no reason to doubt business will continue as usual now.

If it does not, then there is nothing you, me or any other Farang can do about it except look after our own self interest - and my advice is your own self interest is to stay away from these troubles.

Your a foreigner - It's not your sh1t.

[mccw]

Jingjing, believe me, the price of beer is far more of self interest than every one of the latest rumors.

My contribution to the current troubles is going to remain as it is - Go to work, do my job, pay my taxes, obey the law and live my own quiet life.

Any foreigner who gets involved in this mess needs his head testing and probably deserves being deported - if only to be able to get proper treatment back home.

if you have kids, wife, a family, property, life here, then it matters very much what happens, sure i/ we could leave but i care about this pace and dont want it to turn in to a nightmare

[mrbojangles]

If Thailand is indeed on the verge of a civil war then a more prudent course of action for foreigners living here might be to keep their heads down.

Agreed.

Seconded

[473geo]

And your valid comments above are fine when the country has confidence in the goverment, and the values of that government. Abhisit should be pounding the people with the reforms already implemented? Highlighting the realistic proposals for the future, and highlight exactly in no uncertain terms the benefits which the people will certainly receive, if, he is left to do the job. I'm sorry but for myself (and perhaps many of the Thai people) stating he needs to stay in power to allocate the defence budget does not cut it. Prove yourself Abhisit - recognise the need for the uncertainty to be removed - stop the bloodshed -and go to the democratic polls with confidence that you will achieve more equality for the masses, elevate their standard of living, continue to subsidise rural housing build, and move Thailand into the world economy as a consistent major player........call an election and spell it out in your speeches/manifesto do this with passion....

Reds manifesto - well you have reiterated my point.

I think he does state his policies and points in his speeches in thai and the otherweek at the writers club in english. Problem is red media just report <deleted> and mostly all the reds dont listen to any other media sources. Maybe now they have to watch normal news they'll state to see a more ballanced picture.

Also when other parties are intimidated or out right killed, arnt allowed to canvas to get their points across, its not possable to have a fair ellection. The red fiefdoms and millitia need to be broken up first and a level playing field created. House searches nationwide and arrests of anyone in possission of illegal weapons. Have ellection monitors from overseas so biased cant be claimed and ban and jail anyone evidenced to be buying votes.

Most of the nation probably just want peace and everyone to chill out so economy and normal life can keep turning. Its only a minority on both sides who make trouble for the nation as a whole. Although i do think that Thaksin was becoming a real danger to be president for life, rigging ellections, killing decenters with out trail, killing thousands in the drugs war and making everything worse in the south, ripping the country off for billions; its a good thing the army kicked him out. its also a good thing that now the poor cant be ignored. If thailand can come through this period without decending in to caos and maintain order, making it clear that politics not protest is the way, then the poor will better off, development continue and everything could b said to been for the best, maybe not for the best but atleast played its part in creating a fairer more prosporus thailand; but if the reds are given in to now i fear everything could go the opposite way, spiral of violence and destruction, reds right now are a danger to the very future of the nation

Almost as much of a danger as the charges of irregularities which could strip the government of power. So they may depart one way or the other...........now if they are kicked out by the courts?................people need to stop looking at the short term fix of removing the reds.......do you really think anything but an election will solve the current situation and avoid bloodshed.

And as for Abhisit - he doesn't crop up in conversation with the people I know - maybe he needs to reach further.....the rural areas perhaps?

[virtualtraveller]

Before the UDD demand one more time for an IMMEDIATE DISSOLUTION can someone among their supporters please answer the following;

1. With near anarchy and violent confrontation at present how is a free and fair election going to take place? Bombs are going off, prominent civil servants are being threatened, people are being randomly shot.

2. Will the outcome of an election be accepted by both parties with a commitment from UDD and PAD that any future protests will be subject to strict rules limited to free expression without intimidation, demand or threat to future govts and public rights?

3. Can we rely on the competing parties to make a sincere pledge to outlaw vote fraud and accept heavy penalties for those found guilty, similarly until the ridiculous law disbanding a whole party to punish a guilty candidate is changed then any further political process is farcical?

4. What guarantee do the Thai public at large (the fence-sitters) have that the next election won’t just be a proxy war between Thaksin and the Army?

5. Will the resulting govt be able to govern peacefully if the status of Thaksin remains unresolved? Either we have to respect the nation’s judiciary and persuade this popular but flawed individual to accept the verdict and fight through the proper appeals process, or ask for a retrial with a new panel selected by non-partisan leaders, or tear up the rule book, grant him a pardon and live with the complicated resulting consequences.

6. Can the public expect that any moves to amend, replace or tear up the present public-approved constitution is done so by broad public participation, drawn up by non-politicians, and put to public referendum point-by-point?

7. Would the various power brokers involved agree to a national conference that clearly defines the role of the military and police, with a transparent watchdog and disciplinary actions for malfeasance or outside interference?

Frankly, without proper answers or acknowledgement to these issues, then any demand for an immediate election demonstrates a lack of reconciliatory intent, but rather an attempt by one power to usurp the other for their own selfish motives. Instead, how about a push for a bi-partisan caretaker govt tasked with the two obvious sticking points that the UDD leaders latently find so urgent; allocation of the budget and replacement of the army chief – let’s face it, these and the lurking ‘Thaksin return’ are the real sticking points that are not negotiable. Solve these first, then the way would be clear to create a more equal democracy and society through the ballot.

[GuestHouse]

Jingjing, believe me, the price of beer is far more of self interest than every one of the latest rumors.

My contribution to the current troubles is going to remain as it is - Go to work, do my job, pay my taxes, obey the law and live my own quiet life.

Any foreigner who gets involved in this mess needs his head testing and probably deserves being deported - if only to be able to get proper treatment back home.

if you have kids, wife, a family, property, life here, then it matters very much what happens, sure i/ we could leave but i care about this pace and dont want it to turn in to a nightmare

Well 'this place' is not today any different than it was yesterday, or even the day any of us first arrived here.

The history is there to read, the politics and power play hasn't changed and the 'Guest Status' afforded to foreigners is nothing new to anyone.

It's not as if any of this is hidden in the small print.

[monkfish]

Here is a related story.

Also Google Tul Sitthisomwong and Pathompong Kesornsuk for more information.

Multi-color group requested the government and army do more to prevent chaos

BANGKOK: -- Multi-color group gathered in front of 11th Infantry yesterday (April 16th), in support of the government and the army, while also requesting that the government do something to prevent violence instigated by the red shirts from happening again in the near future.

The group was led by Dr Tul Sitthisomwong, of Chulalongkorn University's faculty of medicine and the coordinator of the Nation Protection group, and Mr. Nititorn Lumleau, the lawyer representing PAD, presenting an open-letter to the Army Chief, General Aupong Paojinda, saying that the Army Chief speech regarding the dissolve of Parliament is hurtful especially to the soldiers who lost their lives during the violence on April 10th. They requested that the Army Chief takes the responsibility and do something to prevent the red shirts from creating more chaos in the country, and hoping that the citizens would not have to do it themselves using only their bare hands without any weapons.

http://www.thailandoutlook.tv/tan/

-- Tan Network 2010-04-17

Edited April 17, 2010 by monkfish

[mccw]

Jingjing, believe me, the price of beer is far more of self interest than every one of the latest rumors.

My contribution to the current troubles is going to remain as it is - Go to work, do my job, pay my taxes, obey the law and live my own quiet life.

Any foreigner who gets involved in this mess needs his head testing and probably deserves being deported - if only to be able to get proper treatment back home.

if you have kids, wife, a family, property, life here, then it matters very much what happens, sure i/ we could leave but i care about this pace and dont want it to turn in to a nightmare

Well 'this place' is not today any different than it was yesterday, or even the day any of us first arrived here.

The history is there to read, the politics and power play hasn't changed and the 'Guest Status' afforded to foreigners is nothing new to anyone.

It's not as if any of this is hidden in the small print.

??

my point is why shouldnt people chat on a forum about poiltics which affect their lives. Its not like going down raj and lobbling grenades or anything. everyones entiteled to an opinion

[mccw]

actualy it is quite differrent, he fuc_ked up my freedom to drink all night and smoke splifs in bars, thats the real reason i'm pissed off

Well 'this place' is not today any different than it was yesterday, or even the day any of us first arrived here.

The history is there to read, the politics and power play hasn't changed and the 'Guest Status' afforded to foreigners is nothing new to anyone.

It's not as if any of this is hidden in the small print.

[mca]

Also recall there was a rumor posted here (that may be widespread among the red masses, but not sure) that ALL foreigners would be evicted within 30 days if the reds win.

With all due respect Jing but that's complete and utter paranoia.

We aren't half as important in the scheme of things in Thailand as many of us would like to believe.

I'm of the opinion that Thais couldn't really give a shit about us. We're of no interest to them at all. We're here and that's it. Basically we're ignored.

If ugly nationalism did raise it's head it'd be the poor bloody Burmese and Cambodians who'd have to watch out.

[GuestHouse]

Chat away, won't make any difference - But sign up for an internet campaign or climb on stage / strut around in the latest monochromatic political T-shirt - You'd have to be nuts.

[mccw]

Almost as much of a danger as the charges of irregularities which could strip the government of power. So they may depart one way or the other...........now if they are kicked out by the courts?................people need to stop looking at the short term fix of removing the reds.......do you really think anything but an election will solve the current situation and avoid bloodshed.

And as for Abhisit - he doesn't crop up in conversation with the people I know - maybe he needs to reach further.....the rural areas perhaps?

if the dems are dispanded and a new party forms, its possable not alot would change apart from the names but legal process should be respected; then we'll see who joins who to form a government; i'd accept who ever had the majority of votes from the last ellection, but support who ever had the best policys.

Like the other poster said, lots needs to be sorted out before another election so this cycle doesnt just perpetuate.

[473geo]

Before the UDD demand one more time for an IMMEDIATE DISSOLUTION can someone among their supporters please answer the following;

1. With near anarchy and violent confrontation at present how is a free and fair election going to take place? Bombs are going off, prominent civil servants are being threatened, people are being randomly shot.

2. Will the outcome of an election be accepted by both parties with a commitment from UDD and PAD that any future protests will be subject to strict rules limited to free expression without intimidation, demand or threat to future govts and public rights?

3. Can we rely on the competing parties to make a sincere pledge to outlaw vote fraud and accept heavy penalties for those found guilty, similarly until the ridiculous law disbanding a whole party to punish a guilty candidate is changed then any further political process is farcical?

4. What guarantee do the Thai public at large (the fence-sitters) have that the next election won't just be a proxy war between Thaksin and the Army?

5. Will the resulting govt be able to govern peacefully if the status of Thaksin remains unresolved? Either we have to respect the nation's judiciary and persuade this popular but flawed individual to accept the verdict and fight through the proper appeals process, or ask for a retrial with a new panel selected by non-partisan leaders, or tear up the rule book, grant him a pardon and live with the complicated resulting consequences.

6. Can the public expect that any moves to amend, replace or tear up the present public-approved constitution is done so by broad public participation, drawn up by non-politicians, and put to public referendum point-by-point?

7. Would the various power brokers involved agree to a national conference that clearly defines the role of the military and police, with a transparent watchdog and disciplinary actions for malfeasance or outside interference?

Frankly, without proper answers or acknowledgement to these issues, then any demand for an immediate election demonstrates a lack of reconciliatory intent, but rather an attempt by one power to usurp the other for their own selfish motives. Instead, how about a push for a bi-partisan caretaker govt tasked with the two obvious sticking points that the UDD leaders latently find so urgent; allocation of the budget and replacement of the army chief – let's face it, these and the lurking 'Thaksin return' are the real sticking points that are not negotiable. Solve these first, then the way would be clear to create a more equal democracy and society through the ballot.

Evolution will progress with or without guarantees - the issues you raise are valid - and your suggestion of a bi-partisan caretaker govt is a good one. Anything that abates a violent clash is surely prefferable.

[mccw]

Chat away, won't make any difference - But sign up for an internet campaign or climb on stage / strut around in the latest monochromatic political T-shirt - You'd have to be nuts.

i thought about joining the facebook group but got parranoid that if mr t came back or reds got in power they might go on sum vengeful campain and denie visas to any falang members on there as enemies to the people or sum <deleted>.

basically i wouldnt want to do anything that might disrupt my life too much, a bit like the sillent majority of thais i guess.

its good to talk on forum though, why not, its interesting to engage in debate and see how other people think.

[Jingthing]

Also recall there was a rumor posted here (that may be widespread among the red masses, but not sure) that ALL foreigners would be evicted within 30 days if the reds win.

With all due respect Jing but that's complete and utter paranoia.

We aren't half as important in the scheme of things in Thailand as many of us would like to believe.

I'm of the opinion that Thais couldn't really give a shit about us. We're of no interest to them at all. We're here and that's it. Basically we're ignored.

If ugly nationalism did raise it's head it'd be the poor bloody Burmese and Cambodians who'd have to watch out.

Just reporting what another poster said is the rumor going around with the working class Thais. However, if you don't think foreigners are at least a potentially convenient SCAPEGOAT, I would call that naive. Also of course with their Maoist cultural revolution style class warfare rhetoric about smashing the elites, well do you reckon the red peasants will see foreigners as poor workers or part of the elites to be smashed? I think at the very least people should become aware of rumors that are going around. Would this really happen? I don't know and neither does anyone else. For all we know this eviction threat is being spoken out loud during the public red hate speeches. That's one reason I write about this, it would be interesting to hear any further evidence about the rumor. With such a threatening rumor out there, I suggest we had better pay attention. Its a little more serious than the price of beer, wouldn't you agree?

Edited April 17, 2010 by Jingthing

[scorecard]

Quite imagine many duplicate accounts signing up....

Well of course, but don't forget that the red shirts are paid to attend, and in my soi in Bangkok the food vendors, who are mostly daily survivors, will all openly tell you that they attend rallies for the cash and nothing more, and will tell you that they don't realy undertand what it's all about.

About 10 days back many of them told my adult Thai son they were saving the daily handouts to pay for the bus trip home for Songkran.

And lets not forget the partician for a pardon for thaksin, you can't tell me there were not many many duplicates, dead people, etc etc.

But of course you would always paint the red shirts and their leaders as honest, genuine, non-violent, democratic, and totally free of double standards, even angelic.

Sort of tit for tat isn't it?

[TAWP]

People that claim that the majority are duplicate accounts are slow in the head and have clearly not even tried to look over the list of members of the group.

[scorecard]

[

An election now, with Abhisit correctly and properly installed would surely be a sound footing for the future?

Are you so concerned that the result may not favour Abhisit? and thus not prepared to grant the will of the people?

You are meeting yourself at the door!!

if full term served and policies like free education and pensions can be given time to b felt by the poor and reds to b beneficial then they might stop to belive the red propaganda that gov is their enemy and actualy doing more to help them than the greedy red ellite who just want to keep poor poor as thier rice farming political slaves.

Resobable to compomise though for the sake of peace and meet half way ar end of the year; give everyone time to cool down and lay out their policies.

what are the red policy if they actualy got in to gov??

Definitely should not let a democratic government fall because of violent street protests. An example should b made so its clear that descussion is the only way to achieve political ends, otherwise thailand would decend in to an un ending spiral of political violence which could easily escalate to a point where the streets were unsafe to walk and the economy collapse, everything worse for everyone rich and poor.

And your valid comments above are fine when the country has confidence in the goverment, and the values of that government. Abhisit should be pounding the people with the reforms already implemented? Highlighting the realistic proposals for the future, and highlight exactly in no uncertain terms the benefits which the people will certainly receive, if, he is left to do the job. I'm sorry but for myself (and perhaps many of the Thai people) stating he needs to stay in power to allocate the defence budget does not cut it. Prove yourself Abhisit - recognise the need for the uncertainty to be removed - stop the bloodshed -and go to the democratic polls with confidence that you will achieve more equality for the masses, elevate their standard of living, continue to subsidise rural housing build, and move Thailand into the world economy as a consistent major player........call an election and spell it out in your speeches/manifesto do this with passion....

Reds manifesto - well you have reiterated my point.

I think he does state his policies and points in his speeches in thai and the otherweek at the writers club in english. Problem is red media just report <deleted> and mostly all the reds dont listen to any other media sources. Maybe now they have to watch normal news they'll state to see a more ballanced picture.

Also when other parties are intimidated or out right killed, arnt allowed to canvas to get their points across, its not possable to have a fair ellection. The red fiefdoms and millitia need to be broken up first and a level playing field created. House searches nationwide and arrests of anyone in possission of illegal weapons. Have ellection monitors from overseas so biased cant be claimed and ban and jail anyone evidenced to be buying votes.

Most of the nation probably just want peace and everyone to chill out so economy and normal life can keep turning. Its only a minority on both sides who make trouble for the nation as a whole. Although i do think that Thaksin was becoming a real danger to be president for life, rigging ellections, killing decenters with out trail, killing thousands in the drugs war and making everything worse in the south, ripping the country off for billions; its a good thing the army kicked him out. its also a good thing that now the poor cant be ignored. If thailand can come through this period without decending in to caos and maintain order, making it clear that politics not protest is the way, then the poor will better off, development continue and everything could b said to been for the best, maybe not for the best but atleast played its part in creating a fairer more prosporus thailand; but if the reds are given in to now i fear everything could go the opposite way, spiral of violence and destruction, reds right now are a danger to the very future of the nation

--------------------

I strongly support the notion that Abhisit is the man to take Thailand into a new era, and I also support Khun Korn as his partner, especially in terms of policy development and especially in terms of finance and the economy.

They have both spoken at length of the need to reduce the gap, gain a better spread of the overall wealth of Thailand into everybodys hands, the need to totally reform education and thereore give more people a lot more opportunities. And things are moving, all with (unfortunately) little fanfare. And what is absolutely not part of the Abhisit and Korn policy is handouts which fix nothing (except buy votes).

Abhisit has shown strongly that he supports freedom of the press and he's made it very clear that he will not use NBT and other government media agencies as spin doctors to make the government look good and as a means to kill other opinion / prevent or intimidate the opposition from speaking (one guess is that he's seen the independance of the BBC and he sees this as a good model).

On the other hand perhaps he's been a little too strong / perhaps a bit narrow minded on this point and the result is that his policies and actions are not reported enough.

On the police fiasco a couple of days ago, it could well be that Abhisit is the ultimate winner in that the police have now clearly shown their hand / clearly shown their allegiance to thaksin (this is not new news) and given the large 'non-dissoluton' / support Abhisit forces now appearing, the time is right for Abhisit to come down hard on police reform with massive public support.

Aligned to this point, Abhisit would know very well that Thailand is not going to move forward whilst the police force is so corrupt and so incapable.

Suddenly the time is right to make a move and demand massive police reforms supported by a rising vocal even angry public aligned to non-dissolution and wanting to support Abhisit.

Further, if he can achieve massive police reforms lots of other beauocrats etc., will take notice and be less inclined to be corrupt. Not many people seem to have noticed that Abhisit has removed one of his own party members for corrupton and he didn't mince his words when he spoke about this to the press, a first! He's made it very clear to his coalition partners, publically, that they need to clean up their acts in terms of corruption. Again a first.

Changing the subject, as mentionen above by another poster - the red's manifesto, where is it? The bottom line, they don't have one and they have made no attempt to build a detailed manifesto.

Why not? The answer is very clear, they are just a smokescreen (and not a very good one to anybody with half a brain) over trying to gain a pardon for a corrupt nasty man and to get the 2006 constitition reinstated so that they can all get back to massive corruption and massive vote buying with little threat of punishment.

Edited April 17, 2010 by scorecard

[Ijustwannateach]

Since we are off the topic of Facebook, once again this thread is closed.