World Cup - Usa

[Old Man River]

America have played well so far. No great surprise really as they have been a good team for some years now.

I wonder if winning a World Cup would be enough to get America interested in the sport and do what David Beckham has failed to?

Kids all over the US are now playing soccer. The issue for us has always been the lack of experienced coaching. Now that soccer is becoming popular, schools have budgets to bring in more experienced coaches. Hence, with the large population and better coaching it is only a matter of time before the US starts to bring in some seriously good teams.

[Jingthing]

A good showing in World Cups by the USA team of course will further increase US interest in the sport. So far, this has already been a good showing, but of course we are hoping for more. Realistically, I don't think we expect to win this time but it would be nice to get closer. As far as Latino fans for US pro teams, that can depend on the demographics of the areas. For example, the San Jose Earthquakes sport a huge Latino fan base.

[koheesti]

"Soccer" isn't provincial. It originated in Oxford, England and is short for Association Football". The Aussies call their team the Socceroos. The South Africans have their "Soccer City". Even the UK's own Sky Sports has a Saturday morning show called "Soccer AM". It is narrow-minded to think that "football" is the only acceptable term for the sport. (with apologies to JT).

Soccer/Football WILL be a top sport in the US as time goes by and demographics change. Today there are about 40 million foreign-born Americans. In the 2006 World Cup, the opening week had higher TV ratings than both the NBA and NHL Finals. Today NFL is much more popular than baseball but until the 1950's it wasn't even close to baseball in popularity. It is only a matter of time for soccer to move up the ranks.

Which sport is better? Who cares? Why is it part of human nature that one sport must be best and the rest <deleted>? All sports are just about trying to accomplish something within a set of specific rules that make it challenging enough that only a few people can do it well. Accept that and enjoy the game.

I'm not sure the Latinos will have much to do about the success of soccer in America. They aren't doing much now, most of the team is home grown. The Latinos still identify with the Latin American teams. My colleagues who are naturalized American citizens still cheer for countries from their home regions ahead of America. Maybe as the US gets stronger, they will want to jump on the bandwagon.

Soccer has been the #1 sport for kids in the USA for over 20 years. Problem is, there's not much money in it professionally unless you are freaky good. You can still earn a million in your career as a very good football, baseball, basketball, or hockey player. My nephew played from the age of 5, almost year around down in Florida. He could have gotten a scholarship to play soccer at university but decided to concentrate on academics partly because in the mid-1990s there was no money in it.

Ghana knocked us out of the 2006 World Cup. Will history repeat itself or is it time for some payback? So far, the other three teams in our bracket are Ghana, South Korea and Uraguay. On England's side they have Argentina, Mexico and Germany. Our road to the Semi-Final should be less difficult.

[WarpSpeed]

America have played well so far. No great surprise really as they have been a good team for some years now.

I wonder if winning a World Cup would be enough to get America interested in the sport and do what David Beckham has failed to?

Kids all over the US are now playing soccer. The issue for us has always been the lack of experienced coaching. Now that soccer is becoming popular, schools have budgets to bring in more experienced coaches. Hence, with the large population and better coaching it is only a matter of time before the US starts to bring in some seriously good teams.

This has always been a problem, I pioneered the soccer team at my high school in the late 70's and they tried every way possible to keep us from having one. The final hurdle was their attempt at saying we had no coach so I approached Tony Whelan of the Ft. Lauderdale Strikers of the former NASL and he graciously committed to being our coach but they threw up another gauntlet by saying he wasn't employed by the school board so wasn't eligible without a sponsor who would supervise in spite of my pointing out that he was VOLUNTEERING.

Then I approached my drivers ed teacher to sponsor him and when he said he would do it they finally buckled and said they'd get us a coach and they did. Seemingly out of spite they got some primary school football coach who had no idea of how to coach soccer (not even the rules) when I had brought them a first rate person and soccer player who wanted to give his FREE time to promote soccer in the US..

That meant that after try outs it was one person at every position who had some prior experience who ended up coaching our 95% rookie team. I coached the defensive line along with a Brazilian keeper we had and 2 other south American players coached the midfield and front line respectively, our coach just took care of conditioning which was definitely our strong suit. We were a bit soft on skills at that time but could out hustle any other team and we had a respectable inaugural season of 7 wins 5 losses and 2 ties which also qualified us for the regionals at the time where we got slaughtered due to a short lineup and a team who had a "professional" player/coach like I had intended but apparently his school admin had better visions for their students then did ours..

Let me not forget the biggest calamity of this adventure .. The uniforms they ordered for us were all long sleeved knit shirts for the field players and short sleeves for the goalie, remember this was in south Florida where the temp in the summer and even in winter much of the time rivals Thailand as does the humidity..

I almost forgot, football shoes too and not soccer shoes, so most of us ended up purchasing our own...

[hansum]

Of course some day the USA will win the World Cup. It is inevitable, especially with our huge pool of Latino origin people. Dream final -- Brasil vs. USA.

Arent i right in thinking the Hispanic population in the US on the whole is Mexican and historically Mexico at best have never been better then average despite a huge pool of Latinos.

One thing you have in your favour is getting as good as a free pass to the world cup as the CONCACAF region gets too many places at the world cup in relation to the quality of teams in it.

America have a chance of fluking it to the final of this World cup as theyve potentially an easy route to the final ... a few draws along the way and winning on penalties as Argentina done in 1990 then who knows ... but in terms of actual talent the American teams puts out theyre light years from becoming a top team, though theyve played extremely well as a team and i take my hat off to them for that.

[WarpSpeed]

A good showing in World Cups by the USA team of course will further increase US interest in the sport. So far, this has already been a good showing, but of course we are hoping for more. Realistically, I don't think we expect to win this time but it would be nice to get closer. As far as Latino fans for US pro teams, that can depend on the demographics of the areas. For example, the San Jose Earthquakes sport a huge Latino fan base.

Like I've said they've always had poor success in the very Hispanic region of Florida especially south Florida where it is an even higher Latino populace. My feeling is that they are loyal fans of their own home teams and get a greater sense of satisfaction out of maintaining that fanaticism then to change or adopt another team...

[WarpSpeed]

"Soccer" isn't provincial. It originated in Oxford, England and is short for Association Football". The Aussies call their team the Socceroos. The South Africans have their "Soccer City". Even the UK's own Sky Sports has a Saturday morning show called "Soccer AM". It is narrow-minded to think that "football" is the only acceptable term for the sport. (with apologies to JT).

Soccer/Football WILL be a top sport in the US as time goes by and demographics change. Today there are about 40 million foreign-born Americans. In the 2006 World Cup, the opening week had higher TV ratings than both the NBA and NHL Finals. Today NFL is much more popular than baseball but until the 1950's it wasn't even close to baseball in popularity. It is only a matter of time for soccer to move up the ranks.

Which sport is better? Who cares? Why is it part of human nature that one sport must be best and the rest <deleted>? All sports are just about trying to accomplish something within a set of specific rules that make it challenging enough that only a few people can do it well. Accept that and enjoy the game.

I'm not sure the Latinos will have much to do about the success of soccer in America. They aren't doing much now, most of the team is home grown. The Latinos still identify with the Latin American teams. My colleagues who are naturalized American citizens still cheer for countries from their home regions ahead of America. Maybe as the US gets stronger, they will want to jump on the bandwagon.

Soccer has been the #1 sport for kids in the USA for over 20 years. Problem is, there's not much money in it professionally unless you are freaky good. You can still earn a million in your career as a very good football, baseball, basketball, or hockey player. My nephew played from the age of 5, almost year around down in Florida. He could have gotten a scholarship to play soccer at university but decided to concentrate on academics partly because in the mid-1990s there was no money in it.

Ghana knocked us out of the 2006 World Cup. Will history repeat itself or is it time for some payback? So far, the other three teams in our bracket are Ghana, South Korea and Uraguay. On England's side they have Argentina, Mexico and Germany. Our road to the Semi-Final should be less difficult.

Actually didn't realize I echoed many of your thoughts as I was posting at the same time, but I agree with you on most points..

[WarpSpeed]

Of course some day the USA will win the World Cup. It is inevitable, especially with our huge pool of Latino origin people. Dream final -- Brasil vs. USA.

One thing you have in your favour is getting as good as a free pass to the world cup as the CONCACAF region gets too many places at the world cup in relation to the quality of teams in it.

America have a chance of fluking it to the final of this World cup as theyve potentially an easy route to the final ...

Really?? While I know they aren't in the CONCACAF what about Spain? And then there is that little pre-world cup contest known as the Confederations Cup, seems we fared pretty well in that tourney against some pretty respectable competition being runner up only to Brazil..

JFYI that "fluking it" as you called it is due to our own good play so don't marginalize it that way..If it was England they'd have 'EARNED' their position in the ranking but in this case it's "fluking it" since it's the US? fluke off.....

Nice backhanded compliment in your closing BTW ....

[noel2499rk]

I can definitely see USA beating Ghana, Ghana's only real attacking option is breaking at speed, Kevin Prince Boateng has been consistently wasteful in possession for them shooting from 40 50 yards, which seemed to be their only tactic for scoring against the Aussies and they are sorely missing Micheal Essien.

But i think Uruguay in the quarter final will be to strong for the Americans, still a very successful world cup if they make it to the quarters.

[Groongthep]

Just think you could play Uruguay or S Korea if you beat Ghana so it really does mean it is a World Cup that your country is involved in maybe most of the American population needs time to find its identity first before they can understand the concept of a World cup involving other countries?

I'm trying to figure out what you’re getting at here. If you are insinuating that Americans don't participate in sports at a world level I would have to ask what planet you have been living on. The US has been participating in international football (soccer) for decades. Americans are also, of course, active participants in international Olympic basketball and hockey which now allow professionals to play. The last World Baseball Classic involved 16 nations and its final was the most widely watched sporting event of any kind in the history of televised sports in Japan. True, American football is not an international competition since it is only really popular in North America but I'm sure they would be glad to play any teams the rest of the world outside of the US and Canada might want to field if they truly felt suicidal. Rugby is only really played at the amateur level in the US and there is really no interest in cricket to speak of but I'm sure the Americans would send teams to international competions in these sports too if they became popular enough.

[hansum]

Of course some day the USA will win the World Cup. It is inevitable, especially with our huge pool of Latino origin people. Dream final -- Brasil vs. USA.

One thing you have in your favour is getting as good as a free pass to the world cup as the CONCACAF region gets too many places at the world cup in relation to the quality of teams in it.

America have a chance of fluking it to the final of this World cup as theyve potentially an easy route to the final ...

Really?? While I know they aren't in the CONCACAF what about Spain? And then there is that little pre-world cup contest known as the Confederations Cup, seems we fared pretty well in that tourney against some pretty respectable competition being runner up only to Brazil..

JFYI that "fluking it" as you called it is due to our own good play so don't marginalize it that way..If it was England they'd have 'EARNED' their position in the ranking but in this case it's "fluking it" since it's the US? fluke off.....

Nice backhanded compliment in your closing BTW ....

It wasnt a backhanded compliment you insular man.

The Confederations cup is a non event.

Read what i said about fluking it, i havent said youve fluked anything.

And read the England thread all English are exceptionally critical of their team and more then realistic.

Youre boring now with your hatred of the English im presuming youre one of those IRA loving Irish Americans.

[bkkjames]

Just think you could play Uruguay or S Korea if you beat Ghana so it really does mean it is a World Cup that your country is involved in maybe most of the American population needs time to find its identity first before they can understand the concept of a World cup involving other countries?

I'm trying to figure out what you're getting at here. If you are insinuating that Americans don't participate in sports at a world level I would have to ask what planet you have been living on. The US has been participating in international football (soccer) for decades. Americans are also, of course, active participants in international Olympic basketball and hockey which now allow professionals to play. The last World Baseball Classic involved 16 nations and its final was the most widely watched sporting event of any kind in the history of televised sports in Japan. True, American football is not an international competition since it is only really popular in North America but I'm sure they would be glad to play any teams the rest of the world outside of the US and Canada might want to field if they truly felt suicidal. Rugby is only really played at the amateur level in the US and there is really no interest in cricket to speak of but I'm sure the Americans would send teams to international competions in these sports too if they became popular enough.

I think what he is getting at is when the champions of MLB of NFL or NBA are crowned, they are crowned World Champions - which is a bit strange considering they are national leagues. 

[noel2499rk]

America have played well so far. No great surprise really as they have been a good team for some years now.

I wonder if winning a World Cup would be enough to get America interested in the sport and do what David Beckham has failed to?

Kids all over the US are now playing soccer. The issue for us has always been the lack of experienced coaching. Now that soccer is becoming popular, schools have budgets to bring in more experienced coaches. Hence, with the large population and better coaching it is only a matter of time before the US starts to bring in some seriously good teams.

But you need to make sure you copy the Dutch coaching models, lots of five asides on small pitches plus training young players in every position. Rather than the English coaching model which is lots of weights sessions in the gym and learning to kick the ball as far as possible

The size of your population is no guarantee of footballing success, look at the Solvenians pop 2 million who regularly qualify for top tournaments whereas Russia regularly miss out, also China footballs very popular but they are rubbish. I proper coaching philosophy like the dutch total football idea, which Johan Cruyff exported to Spain and is used at Barcelona, gives a much better chance of world cup success than a large population.

[hansum]

But you need to make sure you copy the Dutch coaching models, lots of five asides on small pitches plus training young players in every position. Rather than the English coaching model which is lots of weights sessions in the gym and learning to kick the ball as far as possible

The size of your population is no guarantee of footballing success, look at the Solvenians pop 2 million who regularly qualify for top tournaments whereas Russia regularly miss out, also China footballs very popular but they are rubbish. I proper coaching philosophy like the dutch total football idea, which Johan Cruyff exported to Spain and is used at Barcelona, gives a much better chance of world cup success than a large population.

What is it with you Americans in your constant need to knock the English at football are you trying to tell me you couldnt learn a thing from the English at football?

And i am telling you as a fact Johan Cruyff did not export total football to Spain ... try Rinus Michels.

[lomatopo]

On the current U.S. roster all the players were born in the U.S. with the following exceptions: Stuart Holden, born in Aberdeen, Scotland moved to U.S. at age 10, Benny Feilhaber born in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, moved to U.S. age 6.

Nineteen players play club football outside the U.S. (most in Europe, England) while four play in the MLS.

Last night’s extra time goal and subsequent victory was one of the most exciting sports events I can remember, right up there with the 1980 hockey game against Russia. Given we got hosed in the Slovenia game, and even in the Algeria game (Dempsey was clearly not off-sides), it was only right that we pulled it out. Sending England off to play Germany, while we get to play Ghana is frosting on the cake.

[Groongthep]

I think what he is getting at is when the champions of MLB of NFL or NBA are crowned, they are crowned World Champions - which is a bit strange considering they are national leagues. 

A matter of semantics. When those organizations were formed they were the only leagues which played those sports professionally so the league champions were obviously also the world champions. Baseball's World Series is not an international competition (except for Canada) but the teams in the MLB are made up of the best baseball players from around the world (with maybe the exception of Japanese/Iranian pitcher Yu Darvish) just as the European soccer leagues are made up of teams that include the best players from around the world. Likewise the NBA and NFL. Americans would no sooner discard the term "World Series" than the English would do away with the name "Premier" league even though they may not be the best league in UEFA.

[bkkjames]

I think what he is getting at is when the champions of MLB of NFL or NBA are crowned, they are crowned World Champions - which is a bit strange considering they are national leagues. 

A matter of semantics. When those organizations were formed they were the only leagues which played those sports professionally so the league champions were obviously also the world champions. Baseball's World Series is not an international competition (except for Canada) but the teams in the MLB are made up of the best baseball players from around the world (with maybe the exception of Japanese/Iranian pitcher Yu Darvish) just as the European soccer leagues are made up of teams that include the best players from around the world. Likewise the NBA and NFL. Americans would no sooner discard the term "World Series" than the English would do away with the name "Premier" league even though they may not be the best league in UEFA.

EPL = English Premier League. 

[hansum]

Last night's extra time goal and subsequent victory was one of the most exciting sports events I can remember, right up there with the 1980 hockey game against Russia. Given we got hosed in the Slovenia game, and even in the Algeria game (Dempsey was clearly not off-sides), it was only right that we pulled it out. Sending England off to play Germany, while we get to play Ghana is frosting on the cake.

Now thats what i like to here, and yes it was a bit of a disappointment when you lot scored at the end meaning England have the harder route to the final. Germany then the Argies and possiblySpain in the Semi, the US route is fairly easy.

[Groongthep]

But you need to make sure you copy the Dutch coaching models, lots of five asides on small pitches plus training young players in every position. Rather than the English coaching model which is lots of weights sessions in the gym and learning to kick the ball as far as possible

The size of your population is no guarantee of footballing success, look at the Solvenians pop 2 million who regularly qualify for top tournaments whereas Russia regularly miss out, also China footballs very popular but they are rubbish. I proper coaching philosophy like the dutch total football idea, which Johan Cruyff exported to Spain and is used at Barcelona, gives a much better chance of world cup success than a large population.

What is it with you Americans in your constant need to knock the English at football are you trying to tell me you couldnt learn a thing from the English at football?

And i am telling you as a fact Johan Cruyff did not export total football to Spain ... try Rinus Michels.

I don't believe noel2499rk is American.

[hansum]

I think what he is getting at is when the champions of MLB of NFL or NBA are crowned, they are crowned World Champions - which is a bit strange considering they are national leagues.

A matter of semantics. When those organizations were formed they were the only leagues which played those sports professionally so the league champions were obviously also the world champions. Baseball's World Series is not an international competition (except for Canada) but the teams in the MLB are made up of the best baseball players from around the world (with maybe the exception of Japanese/Iranian pitcher Yu Darvish) just as the European soccer leagues are made up of teams that include the best players from around the world. Likewise the NBA and NFL. Americans would no sooner discard the term "World Series" than the English would do away with the name "Premier" league even though they may not be the best league in UEFA.

EPL = English Premier League.

Its only known as the English Premier League outside England i believe it is actually called Sponsors name then the Premier League.

[bkkjames]

I think what he is getting at is when the champions of MLB of NFL or NBA are crowned, they are crowned World Champions - which is a bit strange considering they are national leagues.

A matter of semantics. When those organizations were formed they were the only leagues which played those sports professionally so the league champions were obviously also the world champions. Baseball's World Series is not an international competition (except for Canada) but the teams in the MLB are made up of the best baseball players from around the world (with maybe the exception of Japanese/Iranian pitcher Yu Darvish) just as the European soccer leagues are made up of teams that include the best players from around the world. Likewise the NBA and NFL. Americans would no sooner discard the term "World Series" than the English would do away with the name "Premier" league even though they may not be the best league in UEFA.

EPL = English Premier League.

Its only known as the English Premier League outside England i believe it is actually called Sponsors name then the Premier League.

So it's not called the Barclays Premier League World Championship. Ok great thanks 

[hansum]

So it's not called the Barclays Premier League World Championship. Ok great thanks

Not Yet ....... though game 39 may change that!

[rixalex]

Americans would no sooner discard the term "World Series" than the English would do away with the name "Premier" league even though they may not be the best league in UEFA.

Premier refers to it being the top league in the country. Just as Serie A refers in Italy to it being the top league there. That's where the claim ends.

[bkkjames]

Americans would no sooner discard the term "World Series" than the English would do away with the name "Premier" league even though they may not be the best league in UEFA.

Premier refers to it being the top league in the country. Just as Serie A refers in Italy to it being the top league there. That's where the claim ends.

The world is apparently still flat Rix. 

[Groongthep]

Americans would no sooner discard the term "World Series" than the English would do away with the name "Premier" league even though they may not be the best league in UEFA.

Premier refers to it being the top league in the country. Just as Serie A refers in Italy to it being the top league there. That's where the claim ends.

The world is apparently still flat Rix. 

It was not my intention to start an argument. It has been called the "World Series" for 107 years and it isn't going to change anytime soon. Let's leave it at that and return the thread to the topic of the World Cup.

[WarpSpeed]

Of course some day the USA will win the World Cup. It is inevitable, especially with our huge pool of Latino origin people. Dream final -- Brasil vs. USA.

One thing you have in your favour is getting as good as a free pass to the world cup as the CONCACAF region gets too many places at the world cup in relation to the quality of teams in it.

America have a chance of fluking it to the final of this World cup as theyve potentially an easy route to the final ...

Really?? While I know they aren't in the CONCACAF what about Spain? And then there is that little pre-world cup contest known as the Confederations Cup, seems we fared pretty well in that tourney against some pretty respectable competition being runner up only to Brazil..

JFYI that "fluking it" as you called it is due to our own good play so don't marginalize it that way..If it was England they'd have 'EARNED' their position in the ranking but in this case it's "fluking it" since it's the US? fluke off.....

Nice backhanded compliment in your closing BTW ....

It wasnt a backhanded compliment you insular man.

The Confederations cup is a non event.

Read what i said about fluking it, i havent said youve fluked anything.

And read the England thread all English are exceptionally critical of their team and more then realistic.

Youre boring now with your hatred of the English im presuming youre one of those IRA loving Irish Americans.

:passifier: :cheesy: See what happens when someone presumes??? I did read what you said, no ambiguity nor double meanings to be had, nice attempts at back stepping now though..

Confederations cup a non event? Of course it is, convenient dismissal on your part....

[noel2499rk]

But you need to make sure you copy the Dutch coaching models, lots of five asides on small pitches plus training young players in every position. Rather than the English coaching model which is lots of weights sessions in the gym and learning to kick the ball as far as possible

The size of your population is no guarantee of footballing success, look at the Solvenians pop 2 million who regularly qualify for top tournaments whereas Russia regularly miss out, also China footballs very popular but they are rubbish. I proper coaching philosophy like the dutch total football idea, which Johan Cruyff exported to Spain and is used at Barcelona, gives a much better chance of world cup success than a large population.

What is it with you Americans in your constant need to knock the English at football are you trying to tell me you couldnt learn a thing from the English at football?

And i am telling you as a fact Johan Cruyff did not export total football to Spain ... try Rinus Michels.

Not American my friend, English, and I think the Americans would be wise not to learn anything from the English regarding football.

As you were pointing out yourself on the England thread, where you put forward some very good criticism of the English youth system.

[rixalex]

It was not my intention to start an argument. It has been called the "World Series" for 107 years and it isn't going to change anytime soon. Let's leave it at that and return the thread to the topic of the World Cup.

Appreciated. Would though just for once be nice to hear an American agree that it is a daft bit of false advertising that should be done away with, rather than tying themselves up in knots trying to justify it.

[WarpSpeed]

But you need to make sure you copy the Dutch coaching models, lots of five asides on small pitches plus training young players in every position. Rather than the English coaching model which is lots of weights sessions in the gym and learning to kick the ball as far as possible

The size of your population is no guarantee of footballing success, look at the Solvenians pop 2 million who regularly qualify for top tournaments whereas Russia regularly miss out, also China footballs very popular but they are rubbish. I proper coaching philosophy like the dutch total football idea, which Johan Cruyff exported to Spain and is used at Barcelona, gives a much better chance of world cup success than a large population.

What is it with you Americans in your constant need to knock the English at football are you trying to tell me you couldnt learn a thing from the English at football?

And i am telling you as a fact Johan Cruyff did not export total football to Spain ... try Rinus Michels.

Not American my friend, English, and I think the Americans would be wise not to learn anything from the English regarding football.

As you were pointing out yourself on the England thread, where you put forward some very good criticism of the English youth system.

Hansum take some notes.. Well stated noel :clap2: good on you for being level headed, objective and a realist..

[hansum]

But you need to make sure you copy the Dutch coaching models, lots of five asides on small pitches plus training young players in every position. Rather than the English coaching model which is lots of weights sessions in the gym and learning to kick the ball as far as possible

The size of your population is no guarantee of footballing success, look at the Solvenians pop 2 million who regularly qualify for top tournaments whereas Russia regularly miss out, also China footballs very popular but they are rubbish. I proper coaching philosophy like the dutch total football idea, which Johan Cruyff exported to Spain and is used at Barcelona, gives a much better chance of world cup success than a large population.

What is it with you Americans in your constant need to knock the English at football are you trying to tell me you couldnt learn a thing from the English at football?

And i am telling you as a fact Johan Cruyff did not export total football to Spain ... try Rinus Michels.

Not American my friend, English, and I think the Americans would be wise not to learn anything from the English regarding football.

As you were pointing out yourself on the England thread, where you put forward some very good criticism of the English youth system.

Apologies for refering to you as a Septic.

But the Americans wouldnt be going to local FA's that are run by the local lord or some other nepotistic connected person its the FA that im critical of ...... theyd be going to clubs like Man U, Arsenal etc who without doubt could teach a thing or 2 ... apply what the top few good footballing clubs do to all levels and no country would go too far wrong. (id be pretty sure theyve gone to these clubs already to see how they train, most clubs/countries do this)

But yes if they copy the English FA run by the oldboys network theyd be shooting themselves in the foot.