65,000 Baht Monthly Minimum Income Limit For Annual Extensions Of Stay Based On Retirement

[OJAS]

I shall shortly be applying for my first annual extension of stay based on retirement. When I checked the position with the British Embassy in Bangkok last year, I was informed that the figure quoted in their proof of income letter was a net one (i.e. inclusive of tax and other deductions). Although my monthly net pension is below 65,000 baht, when the net rent from my UK house is taken into account my total monthly net income exceeds this amount.

I was, therefore, not a little surprised, following a couple of visits to the British Consulate in Pattaya last week, to be provided with a proof of income letter based SOLELY on my monthly GROSS UK pension. Whilst this is well over 65,000 baht, nevertheless I am now worried at the possibility of being in for a hard time when I submit my annual extension of stay application to my local immigration office at Maptaput the week after next.

I would therefore appreciate answers to the following questions from the TV experts and/or anyone else who has already been through this process:-

* Is the 65,000 baht figure, indeed, a net or a gross one?

* Assuming that it is net, how likely are Immigration to demand to see the evidence which I provided to the Consulate? Or will they simply take the Consulate's letter (which, fortunately, does not make it clear whether the income figure is net or gross) at face value?

* If Immigration do demand to see this evidence and latch on to the fact that the Consulate's figure is a gross one, how likely are they to declare the Consulate's letter invalid for the purposes of my annual extension of stay application?

Edited June 28, 2010 by OJAS

[JohnC]

The Embassy uses the net figure, however, the Honorary Consul in Pattaya has been using the gross figure as he is aware many people have been hit by the low exchange rate, I have never been questioned on this by Pattaya immigration in five years of getting permission to stay based on retirement but that might be because the consul is also a volunteer in Jomtien immigration and well respected by the Thai Immigration authorities here.

I am led to believe that embassy guidelines state the net figure is the one to be used.

[Mario2008]

Normally the income statement is gross, but it also depends on the information you provide and on your embassy.

In case of the British embassy, always insist on the gross income and provide the right statements for that.

[lopburi3]

The Immigration requirements do not specify that the amount be net (which can vary depending on deductions). It asks for pay and that is gross and normally fixed for the year. There is no issue using gross pay. I have only heard of this being an issue with the UK Embassy (recently) and believe others normally report gross figures.

[theoldgit]

When I went to the British Embassy a couple of months back I gave them my pension statement which indicated the Net and Gross figures, my letter confirming my pension was at the higher rate.

[Lite Beer]

A friend of mine returned from the British Embassy last week with his income letter as Gross.

[doctormann]

I can confirm that HM Honorary Consul in Jompthien / Pattaya will use the gross income figure. Immigration do not require to see the documents that are provided to the Consul when requesting the letter. Did my retirement extension last week using this method. Absolutely no problem.

DM

[OJAS]

Many thanks for all the reassuring replies. Looks like I have little to fear with Immigration the week after next. The apparent inconsistency between the Embassy's guidelines (net) and actual practice (gross) seems a trifle worrying, however.

[Jingthing]

Of course it's gross! Whenever people are asked about their "income" gross is assumed.

[tropo]

Of course it's gross! Whenever people are asked about their "income" gross is assumed.

It's not obvious at all. The figure of 65,000 baht per month for retirees is a figure the Thai government decided upon that people would have available to spend per month in Thailand. The gross figure is meaningless in determining a person's spending money.

[Jingthing]

How can the Thai government get involved with net? That's absurd. You can't really tell in advance what your tax situation is going to be, year to year. Any net statement would be purely a guess. With gross, you can be precise.

BTW, we all know you can live well in Thailand for WAY LESS than 65K baht a month, so I wouldn't get all excited about the Thai government's scientific specifications. If they were serious about that, they would REDUCE the amount for those of us who own our homes here.

Edited June 28, 2010 by Jingthing

[tropo]

How can the Thai government get involved with net? That's absurd. You can't really tell in advance what your tax situation is going to be, year to year. Any net statement would be purely a guess. With gross, you can be precise.

BTW, we all know you can live well in Thailand for WAY LESS than 65K baht a month, so I wouldn't get all excited about the Thai government's scientific specifications. If they were serious about that, they would REDUCE the amount for those of us who own our homes here.

I was debating your use of "of course", like it should be obvious. Most people who are retired can easily arrive at a net figure for retirement income because they have a fixed yearly income. There's nothing absurd about it at all. It's just not that difficult to come up with a net figure.

When you deposit 800,000 baht on a Thai bank account, it's fully disposable money they expect to see. The 65K is approximately 1/12th of that figure. They don't expect you'll be lowering the amount due to tax liabilities.

What constitutes living well is very subjective. I coudn't "live well" on under 65K baht per month let alone "WAY LESS". It just depends on how you like to live, but this is irrelevant. The Thai government does not want a bunch of nearly broke retirees living here. They want ones who can contribute to the Thailand economy. That part IS obvious.

Edited June 28, 2010 by tropo

[Jingthing]

No, not obvious. You are projecting YOUR values. Meet the requirements. They are to show money, NOT to show SPENDING. That's all. They don't pry into your lifestyle. I would go as far to say that they are trying to prevent foreigners being a burden on Thailand, but whether you drive a Mercedes or ride the baht bus, they really show no evidence whatsoever of CARING. Next ...

BTW, I doubt most retirees could arrive at a PRECISE net income until AFTER they do their taxes, and things change. With gross you can be precise, with net, you can only be precise about LAST YEAR.

I will give you your other implied point. Asking whether it was gross or net was indeed a very good question that deserves a clear answer. Sorry if I went a bit over the top in response. With Thai immigration, you never know until you ask and find out.

Edited June 28, 2010 by Jingthing

[dadisbell]

The Embassy uses the net figure, however, the Honorary Consul in Pattaya has been using the gross figure as he is aware many people have been hit by the low exchange rate, I have never been questioned on this by Pattaya immigration in five years of getting permission to stay based on retirement but that might be because the consul is also a volunteer in Jomtien immigration and well respected by the Thai Immigration authorities here.

I am led to believe that embassy guidelines state the net figure is the one to be used.

Why don't you offer copies of your bank deposits for the past year that would include your rental income?

[luckyluke]

In case of the monthly 65.000 ThB, Immigration in Jomtien always want to see you have a gross income of 65.000 ThB in your home country, not in Thailand, however they want to see a monthly bank transfer from your home country to here. There is no specification of this transfer amount, I know somebody who transfer +/- 30.000 Thb, and never had a problem.

Edited June 29, 2010 by luckyluke

[tropo]

In case of the monthly 65.000 ThB, Immigration in Jomtien always want to see you have a gross income of 65.000 ThB in your home country, not in Thailand, however they want to see a monthly bank transfer from your home country to here. There is no specification of this transfer amount, I know somebody who transfer +/- 30.000 Thb, and never had a problem.

I've never heard of the Immigration office in Jomtien requesting to see a monthly bank transfer from home country to here. When did this start?

[IsaanAndy]

With regard to the British Embassy proof of income letter, the one I obtained for my 1 year extension last December only showed the NET figure, as in after tax had already been deducted in the UK. The prrof I showed showed both NET and GROSS figures so I guess you have to ask them to include the GROSS figure in the Embassy letter.

[Jingthing]

In case of the monthly 65.000 ThB, Immigration in Jomtien always want to see you have a gross income of 65.000 ThB in your home country, not in Thailand, however they want to see a monthly bank transfer from your home country to here. There is no specification of this transfer amount, I know somebody who transfer +/- 30.000 Thb, and never had a problem.

As this is the FIRST time I have heard of such a requirement to show transfer of money (at least from Jomtien) when qualifying by income, I am respectfully skeptical that this requirement actually exists. There is certainly no written rule about it. I am almost 100 percent they do NOT require a monthly transfer. People transfer in their money in many ways, including ATM, and some people may just do an annual transfer, etc. As such I think the post I am replying to may create anxiety among people who are totally OK with the requirements.

On your other point, which is already implied by me, of course they do NOT require the entire 65K per month to be transferred in. You can transfer in and spend what you want/need.

If I am wrong, let's here MORE reports. I don't know how the poster got the idea about this requirement. However, I have a general theory. Sometimes applicants supply more information than is needed to immigration, thinking they are requirements, and if immigration accepts the paperwork, they continue believing it is an actual requirement. Now, I don't know if this theory applies to this case, of course.

Edited June 29, 2010 by Jingthing

[OJAS]

With regard to the British Embassy proof of income letter, the one I obtained for my 1 year extension last December only showed the NET figure, as in after tax had already been deducted in the UK. The prrof I showed showed both NET and GROSS figures so I guess you have to ask them to include the GROSS figure in the Embassy letter.

Hmm, looks like the Embassy's practice is inconsistent as well! Post #4 (Mario2008) would appear to confirm that it would probably be wise to request a GROSS letter specifically, although the Pattaya Consulate guy volunteered this off his own bat in my case.

[OJAS]

Of course it's gross! Whenever people are asked about their "income" gross is assumed.

In which case someone needs to tell the British Embassy to correct their misleading and inaccurate guidelines!

[luckyluke]

've never heard of the Immigration office in Jomtien requesting to see a monthly bank transfer from home country to here. When did this start?

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I suppose I formulated it wrongly, I always have to show a copy of my bankbook with the monthly transfers,because I transfer monthly an amount from my country to Thailand, I know a lot of expats of my country and they do the same.

Maybe it is indeed not necessary to do it monthly but certainly they want to see that you have money come from abroad to spend here.

Sorry if I confused many.

[Jingthing]

Yes, at Jomtien, even those qualifying only with income, must also show a Thai bank account, even a very small one. Again, I still don't believe they are generally looking for evidence of transfers. Exceptions probably exist, of course. For example, if for some reason they suspect there is something dodgy about a specific application, they always reserve the right to ask for more documentation/evidence of anything. That is by no means the same things as there being a general rule/enforcement policy.

[luckyluke]

^

Maybe they not trust the people of my country, and want to see facts.

Edited June 29, 2010 by luckyluke

[theoldgit]

Somebody once suggested that as they were aware that the US Embassy only asked their nationals to swear that they had the required income rather than seeking proof as other embassies, such as the UK Embassy, require, that they saught to satisfy themselves that the applicant did in fact have the required income.

I obviously don't know if this is the case, I suspect it is more likely that they are making the requirements up as they go along.

[glegolo]

The Immigration requirements do not specify that the amount be net (which can vary depending on deductions). It asks for pay and that is gross and normally fixed for the year. There is no issue using gross pay. I have only heard of this being an issue with the UK Embassy (recently) and believe others normally report gross figures.

-------------------------------------

Yes probably solely the British embassy surpricingly. My embassy, the swedish one, always uses the gross one. And what i heard what regards the americans, They just fill in whatever amount (no proof needed), and than their embassy gladely confirm that figure (happy bastards).

Glegolo

[theoldgit]

And of course the British Embassy charge you 2,315 Baht for the privilege of entering your details on a template and printing it off, wonder what other embassies charge for this massive task?

[luckyluke]

^

Affidavit at Belgian Embassy 500 ThB

[glegolo]

And of course the British Embassy charge you 2,315 Baht for the privilege of entering your details on a template and printing it off, wonder what other embassies charge for this massive task?

----------------------------

SWEDEN 550 BAHT

[jazzbo]

"They just fill in whatever amount (no proof needed), and then their embassy gladly confirm that figure (happy bastards)."

At the US Embassy (or Counselor outreaches) you swear under penalty of perjury to the Federal Official that you have the stated income; the US official before signing asks are you aware that the Thai Immigration officials have the right to ask for documents to corroborate the stated income.

[Jingthing]

Somebody once suggested that as they were aware that the US Embassy only asked their nationals to swear that they had the required income rather than seeking proof as other embassies, such as the UK Embassy, require, that they saught to satisfy themselves that the applicant did in fact have the required income.

I obviously don't know if this is the case, I suspect it is more likely that they are making the requirements up as they go along.

I assume immigration is aware of the US embassy policy but on the other hand I don't know how we could possibly say with any confidence that they are asking more proof from Americans than other nationalities. It's an assumption perhaps based on western logic, but that doesn't mean it's actually happening.