Video Camera - Some Help Needed!

[WhiteShiva]

Hi,

I am about to become a father (two boys!) in a month's time or so, and plan to video every moment of it (well, almost!), from birth onwards. Last time I bought a video camera was back in 1990, and I have noticed things have changed a bit since then.

What I am after, is basically a camera that is relatively compact, and I want to be able to edit the video on my PC. While I am relatively technically capable, and a keen amateur photographer, I will be the first one to admit that on the video front, I am way behind.

Since this will be an investment that I will be using a lot, and for quite some time into the future, I don't mind paying for a good, high quality brand/make.

Suggestions, anyone? Brands, required or cool features, prices & dealers(Bangkok), etc. All info would be greatly appreciated.

Trond

[Firefoxx]

First of all, don't even *think* about using these camcorders as still cameras. Although they advertise "2megapixel" or "5megapixel" still resolution, their actual resolving power is nowhere near that much. A really cheap 2 megapixel still camera would probably produce better pictures. But since you're a photographer, you probably already have good still cameras.

What camcorder to get is really a matter of needs and budget. Steer away from the dvd and memory-based camcorders, they use mpeg compression which produces inferior results. If you don't want to spend much, the Sony HC-32 and HC-42 produce good results for around 23-25k baht. The bad thing is that they rely heavily on touch-screen menus and have bottom-loading tapes (need to remove from tripod to load). If you're willing to spend $$$, Sony will release a HD (high-definition, 1080 lines) camcorder soon for about 70k baht. Panasonic makes some interesting 3ccd cameras for around 30k+, but don't expect them to produce a much better picture than the 25k Sonys.

In the end, the thing that will matter the most won't be the camera, but the way you use it, the lighting, compositing, etc.

Prices for camcorders are fixed for the majority of retailers, so it doesn't matter where you buy from. You can save on DV tapes buy buying them from Chinatown... 130 baht each vs 300 baht at retail stores.

To connect with your computer, you need a firewire port, found in many notebooks but few desktops. You can buy a PCI firewire adapter for your desktop for a measely 500-700 baht. You also need the appropriate cable.. don't buy the Sony cables! They're VERY overpriced. Generic firewire cables are around 150 baht. You will also need a lot of harddisk space (1 hour takes 12GB, if you edit you'll need around 40GB minimum free space) and preferrably a speedy harddisk. A good CPU and lots of RAM (1GB+) will help make the process easier (less waiting).

You also need software to edit. I use premiere pro, but that's a bit complicated for a beginner. Unfortunately I'm not up to speed on the more basic packages. Ulead perhaps?

[WhiteShiva]

Thanks firefoxx,

Some useful leads there. Sony looks to be getting good reviews. Will be checking out EMporium, MBK and Pantip this weekend. Cheers!

[Merlin]

FWIW I bought a cheap Sony DV cam a couple of years ago, and I found that in full sunlight it gives good results, but in normal rooms not so good. And in nightclubs, almost useless. I expect that more expensive models give better low-light preformance?

[Firefoxx]

If you want significantly better low light performance, then the "more expensive" means a *lot* more expensive. The things about typical consumer DV camcorders is that their lens is tiny, and hence their aperture (meaning the hole that light passes through) is also tiny. Tiny hole=very little light.

If you've seen pro DV camcorders, you can see that their lenses are huge... just the lens itself is nearly the size of a small consumer camcorder. Of course this means that they're not very portable. But hey, they have good low light performance! All that's required to buy one is a second mortgage on your house.

Otherwise, for your typical consumer DV camcorder, low light performance is very similar from model to model. Some will be a *bit* better, some will be a *bit* worse. Nowhere enough for a nightclub (what are you filming in a nightclub?? naughty, naughty). And then there's the nightshot modes and the like... gimmicky and nearly useless, unless you want a show of "green men from outer space", or "motion-blur psychadelics".

Here's a review of the new (and only) consumer level HD camcorder from Sony that's about to come out soon. Notice the still rating of <1megapixel... and that's one of the better results among camcorders. But it's got good (not great) low light capability, and it only costs a bit under $2000.

[SeaVisionBurma]

Here's a review of the new (and only) consumer level HD camcorder from Sony that's about to come out soon.  Notice the still rating of <1megapixel... and that's one of the better results among camcorders.  But it's got good (not great) low light capability, and it only costs a bit under $2000.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry - where's the review?? Which HD camcorder from Sony?

Didnt know there was one coming out sub $2,000 - please give more info if this is correct.

Edited after doing a quick google;

Is this what you mean?

SONY UNVEILS WORLD'S SMALLEST AND LIGHTEST HD CONSUMER CAMCORDER HDR-HC1

Edited July 2, 2005 by SeaVisionBurma

[Nordlys]

http://www.jvc.com/product.jsp?productId=P...7000&pathId=119

How about this JVC MPEG-2 video camera?

Extremely compact and light. Takes TypeII CF compatible Micro Drive as a media (1inch HDD). A bit difficult to find a retailer selling MD in Thailand (there are some in Pantip, never seen 6GB MD in Thailand yet though) but otherwise it's a reliable and cheap (in terms of per MB price) media.

[Firefoxx]

Woops, forgot to include the link.

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Sony-HCR-HC1-Review.htm

I think I mentioned it before, don't consider DVD and memory-based camcorders if you're interested in quality. They both use mpeg-2 compression which is inferior to DV. Compared to the price of a DV tape (about 150 baht), a microdrive is far from cheap. (the sony HC1 also uses mpeg-2 compression, but at very high bitrates and resolution to DV media, so it's not the same).

[Nordlys]

I think I mentioned it before, don't consider DVD and memory-based camcorders if you're interested in quality.  They both use mpeg-2 compression which is inferior to DV.  Compared to the price of a DV tape (about 150 baht), a microdrive is far from cheap.  (the sony HC1 also uses mpeg-2 compression, but at very high bitrates and resolution to DV media, so it's not the same).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, right....

But how many MB/GB worth of visual/sound data can you shoot/record with 60 min DV tape?? And why does it always take quality-compromising MPEG-2 compression to write digital data into digital media like DVD and MD but not necessarily so with DV tape??

Victor/JVC also has HD camcorder that's been in the market for about 2 years, I think.

http://www.jvc.com/product.jsp?modelId=MODL027075&pathId=29

I'm not sure if this is sold in Thailand but they sell this in Japan for B65K - B70K, if I remembre correctly, but in a size comparable to Sony's existing HD camcorder HDR-FX1, making HDR-HC1 Firefoxx gave link perhaps the the first HD 'Handycam' (though it doesn't come in palm size). Supposedly 'open price' but to be sold in Japan for B59K~ on 7/7 (why are the prices in the link so high???).

BTW, does it require a HDTV to playback and view the video image shot with HD camcorder or do you still get the high quality, high resolution image when viewing on conventional TV?

Edited July 3, 2005 by Nordlys

[Firefoxx]

A DV stream takes approximately 12gigabytes per hour (mentioned in my original reply). So a 60 minute tape stores 12gigabytes, since a DV transfer from camcorder to PC is simply a bit-per-bit data copy (some people have even made it possible to use your camcorder to backup 12gigabytes of data from your PC). Compare that with the tiny mpeg-2 stream of DVD/memory based camcorders, and the tiny (yet expensive) storage capacity, and... As to why you can't write DV streams real-time to DVD/memory, it's a matter of speed. A DV stream can't be written to those mediums fast enough, and even if it could, it would fill it up too quickly to be useful.

If you don't believe me about the quality, go and see the reviews of DVD/memory camcorders on the site I gave. Look at the comments of video quality when compared to DV based camcorders. The reason cited is always "lossy mpeg-2 compression". Doesn't matter how good the lens/circuitry is when the recording medium/compression is not up to par. I'm not saying that mpeg-2 is lousy, but it's not meant for DV recording. Don't compare this to the mpeg-2 in your DVD movies... those are converted from the original with software, tweaked variables, and multiple-passes. A camcorder uses a hardware chip in a single pass, so there's a big difference in quality.

Sony's HDR-FX1 was the first affordable HD camcorder (150k baht being much more affordable than others). The HC1 is the first affordable consumer HD camcorder.

You can playback the HD signal on normal TVs, but you of course won't see the HD resolution. A normal TV just can't display the extra resolution, it's not physically possible.

[Nordlys]

Thanks for all that.

So, there's not a point of buying HDV camcorder if you don't have a HDTV?

[Firefoxx]

I think you should buy it if you have the budget. First of all, it produces superior video and has better performance compared to similarly priced DV camcorders. Second, it's future-proof... you don't need to buy another one when HD becomes the norm. Third, more resolution is better than less (or equal), and when you have an excess of information, you have more freedom on what parts of it you will use.

The big problem with HD now is editing... you already need a fast/powerful computer to do DV editing, but you'll need one that's a LOT faster to do HD editing. The bitrate is the same, but there's a lot more information (it's more compressed) and resolution. But then the camera will also work in DV mode, like a normal DV camcorder. You still get the benefits of the image processing and superior performance, less the resolution.

[patricktan]

First of all I woud like to congrate you. There is lot of Brand and end of the day it up to you to chose.

[linglop]

Hi,

I am about to become a father (two boys!) in a month's time or so, and plan to video every moment of it (well, almost!), from birth onwards.  Last time I bought a video camera was back in 1990, and I have noticed things have changed a bit since then.

What I am after, is basically a camera that is relatively compact, and I want to be able to edit the video on my PC.  While I am relatively technically capable, and a keen amateur photographer, I will be the first one to admit that on the video front, I am way behind. 

Since this will be an investment that I will be using a lot, and for quite some time into the future, I don't mind paying for a good, high quality brand/make.

Suggestions, anyone?  Brands, required or cool features, prices & dealers(Bangkok), etc.  All info would be greatly appreciated. 

Trond

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[linglop]

Hi,

I am about to become a father (two boys!) in a month's time or so, and plan to video every moment of it (well, almost!), from birth onwards.  Last time I bought a video camera was back in 1990, and I have noticed things have changed a bit since then.

What I am after, is basically a camera that is relatively compact, and I want to be able to edit the video on my PC.  While I am relatively technically capable, and a keen amateur photographer, I will be the first one to admit that on the video front, I am way behind. 

Since this will be an investment that I will be using a lot, and for quite some time into the future, I don't mind paying for a good, high quality brand/make.

Suggestions, anyone?  Brands, required or cool features, prices & dealers(Bangkok), etc.  All info would be greatly appreciated. 

Trond

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Buy yourself a copy of Pinnacle Studio 9 which will capture your dvd as AVI using a firewire lead between camera and computer. If you don't have a firewire port on the computer, these cards are readily available and cheap.

You can then edit what you have captured, add titles and transitions and then encode to MPEG 1 if you wish to create a vcd using Nero, which latter is considered the best OR encode it as MPEG 2 if you wish to create a dvd using Pinnacle and then burn to dvd assuming you have a dvd writer. You would need to obtain TMPG DVD Author to create a suitable menu for a dvd.

A great site for what you are endeavouring to do is "www.videohelp.com".

When connecting the firewire lead between camera and computer, switch off the camera, connect the firewire lead to the computer first and then connect the camera to the lead. Then switch on the camera. Then start Pinnacle Studio 9. The latter may have a few bugs but if you keep things simple, you should get the results you want.

So the software you need is:

Pinnacle Studio 9

Nero

TMPG DVD Author

TMPGENC (free) is a useful addition to the above.

Mainconcept Encoder is too.

Best of luck

[Khutan]

<snip> the Sony HC-32 and HC-42 produce good results for around 23-25k baht.<snip>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Firefoxx, agree 100% with you. You have confirmed what my last 2 months of research has found.

I am going to buy the HC-32 not the HC-42 because the HC-32 has a higher optical zoom. Having the b/w viewfinder isn't a problem, as I am a zealout for the flip out ecreen.

My previous camera was a CCD-TRV66 and I only used the viewfinder for nightshot, which is b/w anyway.

The best price I have is 21,100 B at Pantip and that includes a 32m card, Bag and a tripod. Obviously the Charger and docking station are there as well.

My only question is, are there any mini or small 3CCD digital camera's ? I have found the 3CCD type camera is just so much better.

[Firefoxx]

I think that just adding 3CCD's doesn't automatically make things better,you have to think about other factors as well, such as the lens and the electronics processing. I mentioned before that Panasonic does have cheap 3CCD camcorders in the 30k+ range, but they're not miracle workers. Here's a review:

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/panas...rder-review.htm

I agree with the review about Panasonic's image stabilization function... I also have a Panasonic camcorder (a cheaper one) and I can't tell at all whether the IS is enabled or not... there's no noticeable difference in image shake. On the Sony, you see the difference right away.

The HC42 has less zoom, but a bigger CCD, which results in somewhat better resolution. It's also supposed to give better low light performance, but it seems not so in this case, since it has some kind of filter which impedes on low lux images.

[Norrad]

I have one of the Sony DVD Handycams, DCR-DVD602E or something like that and I'm very happy with it. OK so still image quality sucks but I didn't buy it for that, I bought it so I can take videos of everywhere I go and just be able to slot the disk into my DVD player and watch my adventures. No hassle of first having to connect it to my PC and then edit and write to a DVD from there. Disks aren't that expensive for it and if you use re-writables you can use them over and over. Overall I'm very happy with my buy

Edited July 7, 2005 by Norrad

[Firefoxx]

The DVD camcorders do have the "ease" factor going for them, so they're good for anyone who doesn't think they will do any editing and doesn't mind the image quality (although it's inferior to DV, it's still good). However, to actually fit 1 hour on a mini disc means that you'll be decreasing the quality by quite a bit, as they hold only 1/3 the capacity of a normal disc.

All popular camcorder formats, from consumer to pro, are tape based, and that's not because of superstition. Even the new HD (high definition) format is tape-based. Too bad it's not very user-friendly.

[Khutan]

Well, I am going to buy the HC-32 this weekend, so I will post some reviews after I have had a play.

The 20x Optical Zoom has got me. The b/w viewfinder isn't a problem.

See how it goes.

Oh, but I am going to buy a couple of 500m Memory chips.

[Firefoxx]

You mean you're going to buy 512MB memory sticks, right? What for? The HC-32 takes memory stick duos (short memory sticks) but the still images (like all camcorders) is not worth the bother.

Also, memory sticks have a maximum capacity of 128MB, only memory stick "pro" cards go beyond that. Same goes for duos, only the duo "pro" goes beyond 128mb. Memory sticks, because of their proprietary nature (Sony-only) are the most expensive type of flash card right now. In the US it's come down a little because of the PSP which uses Duos, but not here.

[WhiteShiva]

Well, I am going to buy the HC-32 this weekend, so I will post some reviews after I have had a play.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep - that's what I ended up buying as well. Haven't tried it out yet - charged the battery last night, and will start playing around with it this weekend. Looks promising.

[markuk]

Well, I am going to buy the HC-32 this weekend, so I will post some reviews after I have had a play.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep - that's what I ended up buying as well. Haven't tried it out yet - charged the battery last night, and will start playing around with it this weekend. Looks promising.

hey guys any feedback on the HC range? i am looking at the HC-36 or HC-46 at the moment, i am also looking for one that i can use for webcam use on yahoo/msn? does the HC range do this?

Cheers

[astral]

Thanks for all that.

So, there's not a point of buying HDV camcorder if you don't have a HDTV?

You will have by the time the kids grow up!!!