Prostitution : Is It Wrong To Pay For Sex ?

[cardholder]

The point is a single mother , poor, ill educated may very well not have the choice to do anything else than sell her body. And if she does not have any alternative then her she can not freely give consent.

You do not have to be rich or well educated to sell food from a cart - like much of Thailand does. She has a choice.

Exactly, there are ALWAYS choices.

Obligation may put pressure on some girls to earn money. Lack of education/opportunity may well limit the options.

I think you will find consent is always freely given - if a girl does not want to work bar, she will leave. Food carts, domestic working are all options - the Thai girl will often choose bar, or related work, because of the greater rewards. Providing sex willingly is an easy part for them.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Providing sex willingly is an easy part for them.

Well, not easy for many of course. Take a quick look at their typical customers and I'm sure you'll know what I mean.

[TAWP]

So we agree then that the background of most women working as Thai prostitutes are from poor backgrounds, poorly educated, likely to be single parents.

I also agree that these things do not automatically make working in a bar the only option, but they severely restrict options.

But at least we have established that when buying sex from a Thai prostitute one is doing so from someone who is almost certainly poor, ill educated and likely under pressure to provide of a child or children.

mmmmm

I disagree, as the image in BKK is far more complex than that.

Both the higher cost of living, the high cost for new toys (iPhone etc), the cost for going out etc matters, and sure even the cost for drugs.

I was surprised when I was told a 'who does who' in the apartment building. A very high number of girls work in different massage places but what is was surprised over was that they did and in many cases live with their boyfriends. In some couples both work but they always seem to need more money. Sending money home is just a part of the equation. But a long way from the whole part.

[mark45y]

Why have "a guess" when there is no way that it could be accurate? Sure, lots of sex workers are poor and need money, but there are plenty of other jobs.

I think we've established the background of the vast majority of Thai prostitutes as being poor, ill educated and likely single mothers.

As a proponent of buying sex from Thai prostitutes you are in defense of buying sex from poor, ill educated women who are likely single mothers - OK you might avoid the single mothers if you check out that detail first.

Meanwhile you rant against anyone who calls buying sex from poor, ill educated women who are likely single mothers.

What a sad mess to be in.

I am not sure if you realise how pretentious that post sounds.

The background of a Thai prostitute is irrelevant. It is not rocket science to imagine that most, but by no means all, are from a poor, rural background, Statistically, most students are from an impoverished background because that is what dominates Thailand social structure.

As a guess, I would say there are more divirced/widowed bar workers with children than there are 'single mothers' - I smell a Western stereotype coming out in GH's posts.

None of these facts are of any relevance when engaging in a transaction with a bar girl. Her bank balance or social background is unlikely to feature high on the discussion agenda - except for GuestHouse who obviously wants to see evidence of her university degree and a chanote showing a good address in Bangkok !.

"What ever floats your boat" is what will determine whether you choose to buy. Different people look for different things.

Remember also that many girls are not looking to be 'saved' from the industry. They enjoy it and are financially successful. Many stories abount where a girl is reeling in 100,000 Baht + from a series of boyfriends. However, the vast majority will be looking to improve their life and find the money to satisfy the 'debt' to their parents.

The point is not posession of Chonotes, or education or a good address - The point is a single mother , poor, ill educated may very well not have the choice to do anything else than sell her body. And if she does not have any alternative then her she can not freely give consent.

A secondary point is to refer to the attitudes many posters in this thread have to women who are well educated, affluent. That'd be the western women so many rant against.

2.8 million is a long way from the majority of Thai poor women. It is a long way from the majority of single mothers. It is a long way from the number of Thai women who are working for small wages all over Thailand.

Let me give you one story that I think is typical and represents far more people than the one I am writing about.

Nat started out on the farm. Married a soldier who was handsome and well you know what happened.

She went to Bangkok and got a job doing drywall in new construction projects. She sent money home to mom up North to pay for her one child. She eventually was made crew leader and had a dozen girls working for her. Drywall is hard, hot and in hi rise condos perhaps dangerous.

One day after work the crew was having a drink at a local bar. It was next to a Karaoke bar frequented by Thai army men. The bar happened to be for sale. Nat had just gotten paid and was a bit drunk.

She bought the bar for peanuts. Worked it for a couple of months when she realized she needed more money to improve the bar. She went to Singapore for two months and came back with 50,000 baht and put the money into the bar.

The bar looked good but she didn’t have any employees. She hired the ladies from her construction crew.

Now you have to realize lady construction workers in Bangkok are pretty much like construction workers anywhere. A rough, hard drinking bunch. Keep in mind the customers were Thai army troops.

You put a short skirt and tank top on a drunk construction worker and you get a drunk construction worker in a short skirt and tank top.

I think the soldiers were mostly kidnapped off the street and forced to have sex and only paid money to get out of the bar and home safely.

This was one rough bar with twelve rough ladies who would screw you and then patch the holes in the walls of your apartment where they threw you around the night before. Multitalented multitasking women.

If you stay in the relative comfort and safety of the naughty nightlife areas frequented by white faced individuals you really don’t see much prostitution. Remember 90% of naughty nightlife is Thai only.

The only people who didn’t consent when going into Nat’s bar were the customers. If you happened to walk in you were not going to leave without having at least one woman and a fifth of Thai whiskey.

Guesthouse if you really think you have as much experience with Thai prostitutes as I have I will consent to listen to further arguments about free will.

But really, I feel I am in a different league and have had quite a bit more experience with ladies of the night of all types all over Thailand.

I feel in this instance actual experience trumps anecdotal theories.

If a poor young woman with any sense at all wanted to get in and out of prostitution and into another business it would take almost no talent to get enough money for a food cart and initial stake and could be accomplished by even the most inept in about 3 months.

The fact of the matter is that the population of Pattaya swells and shrinks depending on demand. The ladies go home and work the farm and back to Pattaya for a few quick bucks during season.

When the fleet is in school girls come out of the woodwork to make tuition and get new cell phones and then quickly shrink back into the university population on the hunt for hi so Thai males.

So I’m not buying the cry me a river mentality. Thailand was a favorite stop of mariners 500 years ago because the ladies were topless and friendly and full of fun for a reasonable price. Nothing much has changed.

[TAWP]

GuestHouse>> I am not sure what you are driving at when you keep trying to poke at that bar girls supposedly come from a poor background. For bar girls in specific that might be true, but bar girls are a very-very minor part of the overall pay4play industry. The massage scene is much-much bigger and have several price-divisions. Bring to that the non-public call girls and the part-time models that are way more expensive.

To think that the latter does not contain bright and well educated girls is to be highly ignorant of the real scene out there. And the extreme amount of money involved in some cases.

Can we here mention that one of TVs favorite soap opera stars has a background as a model and was first discovered when she worked in a massage place of a slight higher division?

In any way, not all girls come from a poor background. And bar girls are a very-very small minority of all girls involved in the trade.

[GM1955]

The point is a single mother , poor, ill educated may very well not have the choice to do anything else than sell her body. And if she does not have any alternative then her she can not freely give consent.

You do not have to be rich or well educated to sell food from a cart - like much of Thailand does. She has a choice.

Exactly, there are ALWAYS choices.

Obligation may put pressure on some girls to earn money. Lack of education/opportunity may well limit the options.

I think you will find consent is always freely given - if a girl does not want to work bar, she will leave. Food carts, domestic working are all options - the Thai girl will often choose bar, or related work, because of the greater rewards. Providing sex willingly is an easy part for them.

With hoardes of males willing to pay, why not ?

Put it another way, would you be willing to work in the sex industry going with women for 5,000 Pounds a week instead of working your butt off for 350 Pounds per week ?

C'mon, would you like to be in a Porn movie if the chance came up, I bet you'd do it for free.

Men always get pissed off with women who make money from sex, simply because in general men have to pay, but I bet if you were in a position to have a Harem of 50 young nubile female slaves you'd jump at it.

Or maybe ThaiVisa members are different.

[way2muchcoffee]

The point is not posession of Chonotes, or education or a good address - The point is a single mother , poor, ill educated may very well not have the choice to do anything else than sell her body. And if she does not have any alternative then her she can not freely give consent.

A secondary point is to refer to the attitudes many posters in this thread have to women who are well educated, affluent. That'd be the western women so many rant against.

Nonsense. Only those sold into a house of prostitution and held against their will are to be pitied. The rest have options no matter how low their education or how desperate their economic situation. Their is plenty of work available in Thailand for anyone who wants to work.

Edited July 20, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[MB1]

If you stay in the relative comfort and safety of the naughty nightlife areas frequented by white faced individuals you really don’t see much prostitution. Remember 90% of naughty nightlife is Thai only.

And that's it in a nutshell, most foreigners IMO have no clue about the Thai on Thai side of prostitution in Thailand, most of what they know is from Places like Bangkok or Pattaya, they don't understand the culture or history of prostitution in Thai society.

Lots of foreigners get their info from the net or smutty tabloid gutter press or have a 2 week holiday and think they know it all.

I admit to being one of the ones who's still learning.

When you go back home after a holiday to your homeland and people ask you where you have been and you answer "Thailand" do you ever get that knowing glare and then a giggle, or someone says, ahhh you've been for the prostitution or have you found a Thai bride yet....

[mark45y]

The point is not posession of Chonotes, or education or a good address - The point is a single mother , poor, ill educated may very well not have the choice to do anything else than sell her body. And if she does not have any alternative then her she can not freely give consent.

A secondary point is to refer to the attitudes many posters in this thread have to women who are well educated, affluent. That'd be the western women so many rant against.

Nonsense. Only those sold into a house of prostitution and held against their will are to be pitied. The rest have options no matter how low their education or how desperate their economic situation. Their is plenty of work available in Thailand for anyone who wants to work.

I get around a bit. I have never seen one of these places where women are sold into prostitution in Thailand. I have never read about an NGO finding one in Thailand. I have heard about a couple for boys that were busted but never women. I think they are a myth.

[Ulysses G.]

A lot of Thai men's brothels had "indentured servants" in the fairly recent past (20 years ago). I would guess that there are still a few around, but most farangs avoid them once they realize the girls are not there voluntarily.

Edited July 20, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[way2muchcoffee]

I get around a bit. I have never seen one of these places where women are sold into prostitution in Thailand. I have never read about an NGO finding one in Thailand. I have heard about a couple for boys that were busted but never women. I think they are a myth.

I have experience with this and can guarantee you that it does exist. There is no myth about it, but I suspect it is less common today than in times past.

Edited July 20, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[MB1]

The point is not posession of Chonotes, or education or a good address - The point is a single mother , poor, ill educated may very well not have the choice to do anything else than sell her body. And if she does not have any alternative then her she can not freely give consent.

A secondary point is to refer to the attitudes many posters in this thread have to women who are well educated, affluent. That'd be the western women so many rant against.

Nonsense. Only those sold into a house of prostitution and held against their will are to be pitied. The rest have options no matter how low their education or how desperate their economic situation. Their is plenty of work available in Thailand for anyone who wants to work.

I get around a bit. I have never seen one of these places where women are sold into prostitution in Thailand. I have never read about an NGO finding one in Thailand. I have heard about a couple for boys that were busted but never women. I think they are a myth.

Whilst I actually think your joking Mark45y, I'll provide a link for you and anyone else who cares to read it just incase you aint..You can either believe it or some of it, or totally disregard it as total lies and false reporting.

http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/thailand.htm

The article may be fairly old, but It points out that it was alive and well in those days, and I've no reason to disbelieve that some women are still forced into prostitution.

Edited July 20, 2010 by MB1

[sarahsbloke]

I'm involved with the professional mia nois (or maybe mia chow).

Bangkok is full of these girls, they have apartments and live off married Thai guys who give them money.

Usually much younger than the Thai men who support them, don't touch foreigners, only speak Thai.

Mainly white skinned non-Issan girls. Not at all desperate for money, but spend it as quick as they get it on trivial items.

Clothes, mobile phones, drugs.

The sex business is not primarily aimed at white guys, maybe less than 1 in 100 girls.

Just my opinion.

[mark45y]

The point is not posession of Chonotes, or education or a good address - The point is a single mother , poor, ill educated may very well not have the choice to do anything else than sell her body. And if she does not have any alternative then her she can not freely give consent.

A secondary point is to refer to the attitudes many posters in this thread have to women who are well educated, affluent. That'd be the western women so many rant against.

Nonsense. Only those sold into a house of prostitution and held against their will are to be pitied. The rest have options no matter how low their education or how desperate their economic situation. Their is plenty of work available in Thailand for anyone who wants to work.

I get around a bit. I have never seen one of these places where women are sold into prostitution in Thailand. I have never read about an NGO finding one in Thailand. I have heard about a couple for boys that were busted but never women. I think they are a myth.

Whilst I actually think your joking Mark45y, I'll provide a link for you and anyone else who cares to read it just incase you aint..You can either believe it or some of it, or totally disregard it as total lies and false reporting.

http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/thailand.htm

The article may be fairly old, but It points out that it was alive and well in those days, and I've no reason to disbelieve that some women are still forced into prostitution.

I read that whole article. You are right it is old (the links are dead)and filled with a lot of estimates. But nowhere - any factual information about underage women working against their will in Thailand.

You would think if it was so widespread we would hear of at least a couple of busts.

A lot of information about other countries and Thai’s in other countries but nothing in Thailand.

With all the sensational press in Pattaya one would think someone would turn up at least one instance of a brothel holding people against their will. But no.

It’s a myth.

Edited July 20, 2010 by mark45y

[powderpuff]

If women are sold into prostitution that would be a mistake on the part of the parents? Correct? The parents should be held responsible.

[Ulysses G.]

You guys are talking about venues for Western men. It was not a myth in Thai men's brothels in the recent past.

[GM1955]

You guys are talking about venues for Western men. It was not a myth in Thai men's brothels in the recent past.

Very true, you've been here a long time, remember the fire in a Hat Yai brothel in the early 1990's where they found a girl that had been chained to a bed and burned unable to escape, or the girls from the same City who would run away, go to the Police and the Police would take them back as they were on the payroll from the brothel owner.

[mark45y]

You guys are talking about venues for Western men. It was not a myth in Thai men's brothels in the recent past.

Well, yes I am talking about venues frequented by western men. But in the past 5 years I have not heard of any for Thai men either. You would think someone would say something. NGO’s making up statistics to get money is one thing but someone would have busted those places in Chiang Mai that existed 20 years ago if they existed today. I think they are gone and have been replaced by women more than willing to work at the trade and that put them out of business.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

A lot of Thai men's brothels had "indentured servants" in the fairly recent past (20 years ago). I would guess that there are still a few around, but most farangs avoid them once they realize the girls are not there voluntarily.

Out of curiosity, how would you know if girls were indentured or not? Typically this would be debt bondage, possibly in combination with not being full Thai citizens. It's not like this is immediately clear to any white face who shows up; those girls are in the money making business too (to earn back the debt and then make money) so they will act just as cheerful and eager as anyone else. I get the feeling some Farangs expect this to be immediately obvious, with sad doe-like eyes and chained to the bed.. Seriously.

And then, you seem to assume that all Farangs are like yourself; let me submit that some really aren't very moral individuals, and may not treat the girls very nice at all, nor would they care if girls are indentured or not.

Also don't forget that by the time women show up in Westerner's favorite freelancer bars, they often ran through the whole industry, starting out at brothels, restaurants and/or karaokes.

Edited July 20, 2010 by WinnieTheKhwai

[mark45y]

A lot of Thai men's brothels had "indentured servants" in the fairly recent past (20 years ago). I would guess that there are still a few around, but most farangs avoid them once they realize the girls are not there voluntarily.

Out of curiosity, how would you know if girls were indentured or not? Typically this would be debt bondage, possibly in combination with not being full Thai citizens. It's not like this is immediately clear to any white face who shows up; those girls are in the money making business too (to earn back the debt and then make money) so they will act just as cheerful and eager as anyone else. I get the feeling some Farangs expect this to be immediately obvious, with sad doe-like eyes and chained to the bed.. Seriously.

And then, you seem to assume that all Farangs are like yourself; let me submit that some really aren't very moral individuals, and may not treat the girls very nice at all, nor would they care if girls are indentured or not.

Also don't forget that by the time women show up in Westerner's favorite freelancer bars, they often ran through the whole industry, starting out at brothels, restaurants and/or karaokes.

What kind of clothes they wear, tattoos, piercing. Do they go out at night after work? Do they have a Thai boyfriend?

It is easy to tell if a woman has her own money or if she is on a tight budget to pay back a debt. A lot of women have to pay the bar back for initial advances of money when they started working for transportation and incidentals.

[IanForbes]

The internet and the wide spread use of cel phones has changed things dramatically in the last 15 years. Virtually everyone has a cel phone today, and there are internet sites in even the smallest Thai communities. Even poor Thai women can stay in contact with their lovers and their customers at the same time. Before my hotel had internet I had to use the public internet sites. Many times I've sat beside Thai women who were chatting with ther multiple boyfriends overseas. And, these gals were FAR from being princesses. Most were rather homely and nothing I would take home. But, they certainly had lots of customers. There is no need for the real cute gals to work too hard at it and even the poor farm girls have multiple options.

As far as the indentured women working in brothels is concerned I tend to believe Mark on that issue. I know for certain it happened as recently as 14 years ago, and might still be happening in Laos and Cambodia, but I think it's almost finished now in Thailand. If it is operating then it sure is kept well hidden. It's the same with the paedophile trade. You would have to be in that evil trade to know where to go. I've spent a fair bit of time in Pattaya in the past and can't say I've EVER seen men with children that weren't their own. Unfortunately, the foreign press likes to sensationalize anything and everything regarding sex and continually skew the facts for their own profit. Because all the westerners read is the glossy headlines, they believe that is the norm for Thailand.

[Ulysses G.]

Out of curiosity, how would you know if girls were indentured or not?

Someone I knew fell in love with one of these girls and she let us look at her payment book showing how much money her parents had borrowed and how much she had to pay off before she would be free. She was allowed to go out during the daytime because she was told that her parents would be hurt if she did not come back. There were a lot of these places around 20 years ago.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

It is easy to tell if a woman has her own money or if she is on a tight budget to pay back a debt. A lot of women have to pay the bar back for initial advances of money when they started working for transportation and incidentals.

Right, so that actually makes it a pretty blurry line between paying back an advance (either to the girl direct or to her family, or both), and debt bondage.

I have no reason to believe that this is a thing of the past.

[GuestHouse]

I get around a bit. I have never seen one of these places where women are sold into prostitution in Thailand. I have never read about an NGO finding one in Thailand. I have heard about a couple for boys that were busted but never women. I think they are a myth.

......

I read that whole article. You are right it is old (the links are dead)and filled with a lot of estimates. But nowhere - any factual information about underage women working against their will in Thailand.

You would think if it was so widespread we would hear of at least a couple of busts.

A lot of information about other countries and Thai’s in other countries but nothing in Thailand.

With all the sensational press in Pattaya one would think someone would turn up at least one instance of a brothel holding people against their will. But no.

It’s a myth.

Of course forced prostitution is a myth.

Customers want girls who have fun. They don't want someone "forced" into it. And as there is and abundance of girls available for prositution, there is no need to force anybody.

It is a typical Western feminist myth.

Here's one example that is not a myth 31 Women Rescued from Thai Brothel

And another Police Rescue underage girls from Pattaya Brothel - Catering for foreigners

And there's more Police Rescue Minors forced into prostitution

Not to miss women in other parts of Thailand forced prostitution scene 8 Vietnamese women rescued from Bangkok Brothel

But there is hope .. The Grey Man to the Rescue

Keep telling yourself it's all a myth..... if that what helps you.

[powderpuff]

The path that village girls take to get to Pattaya & BKK go-go's etc is very well known & discussed in books like "Private Dancer". They have not run the whole gamut of prostitution.

Many of them find husbands.

Their parents aren't selling them into slavery - but the girls DO get told what is expected of them. And due to the sense of "duty" they do it.

Some become very good little grifters with many sponsors on the line..

Edited July 20, 2010 by powderpuff

[GuestHouse]

Out of curiosity, how would you know if girls were indentured or not?

Someone I knew fell in love with one of these girls and she let us look at her payment book showing how much money her parents had borrowed and how much she had to pay off before she would be free. She was allowed to go out during the daytime because she was told that her parents would be hurt if she did not come back. There were a lot of these places around 20 years ago.

You are correct, that is exactly how the debt bondage system works - I'd only dispute that this is not a thing of the past. It is frequently reported as a means to control women working the Thailand's domestic sex industry and is almost always reported in cases where Thai women are arrested working as prostitutes overseas.

[mommysboy]

Out of curiosity, how would you know if girls were indentured or not?

Someone I knew fell in love with one of these girls and she let us look at her payment book showing how much money her parents had borrowed and how much she had to pay off before she would be free. She was allowed to go out during the daytime because she was told that her parents would be hurt if she did not come back. There were a lot of these places around 20 years ago.

Sure there are some really scum bag people around who prey on the poor and innocent in all sorts of ways.

In the absence of a point I'll assume this is a comment against prostitution.

So there are loan sharks, hence we ban everyone who lends money? bad car sellers, so no more car sales?

[MB1]

IT'S A MYTH....

You keep believing that Mark45y if you so wish, I don't believe it and only one link provided by Guesthouse is enough IMO to blow your "MYTH" theory out of the water.

Certain things in Thailand have a way of getting swept under the carpet, could be a government unwilling to accept it still exists, a police force who have been described as the Mafia and one of the most corrupt in the world, censorship in Thailand is rife and keeping certain things out of the news aint that difficult, but you can't keep all news from the world.

One of the links provided by Guesthouse, the article dated December 15th 2009, mentioned that the Union had asked for assistance from the police to help the victims, suprise suprise, the police said they had no free time, did they really mean they were unwilling to free the women because it was they that had arranged for them to be at the brothel ...TIT

I'll say IMO forced prostitution problems are far less nowadays, but anyone who thinks the problem no longer exists is wrong.

[MB1]

@mark45y

I read that whole article. You are right it is old (the links are dead)and filled with a lot of estimates. But nowhere - any factual information about underage women working against their will in Thailand.

You would think if it was so widespread we would hear of at least a couple of busts.

A lot of information about other countries and Thai’s in other countries but nothing in Thailand.

With all the sensational press in Pattaya one would think someone would turn up at least one instance of a brothel holding people against their will. But no.

It’s a myth.

Try this one then, from a very recent article dated July 11th 2010.

Below a quote from a piece of the article published by the Pattaya XXXXX news. Not sure if I am allowed to post link.

It seems I'm not the only one who thinks it's alive and well and still going on in Thailand, maybe not open to the eyes of many but IMO it's going on, maybe not in a brothel as such, but certainly underground and children are being sold into the Thai sex industry, and I don't think all underage children prostitute themselves of their own free will.

Quote....

"The social divide and prominence of prostitution in Thailand has inherently caused an increase in demand for younger and younger service workers. It is not uncommon to hear of a child being rented out or sold by their family for financial gain, sometimes for as little as a Bt2,000-3,000. Some children are forced into the industry having run away from broken homes or are coerced into it by friends or relatives. Many children from the cities turn to prostitution having tried selling drugs, a highly risky and harshly punished crime, or being a street beggar"

Edited July 20, 2010 by MB1

[Shotime]

It's a really vicious cycle.

In any case, I'm all for prostitution. Without all the consent/forgot other word discussion.

You can find most anything you want, if you're looking for it, anywhere.. The consumer, or, at least, some of them, are the problem.

My needs, although some might argue, are very basic..

"having tried selling drugs, a highly risky and harshly punished crime, or being a street beggar."

I have to disagree with this. I know girls who work in a factory, and can support their family at home. Modestly..