Banning the wearing of burkas in public would be "rather un-British", the Immigration Minister said today as he attacked efforts to make it illegal in this country.

Damian Green said it would be "undesirable" for Parliament to try to pass such a law which would be at odds with the UK's "tolerant and mutually respectful society".

Fellow Tory MP Philip Hollobone introduced a private members' bill which would make it illegal for people to cover their faces in public.

More than two thirds of voters back a ban like that approved almost unanimously by French MPs last week, according to a recent opinion poll.

But Mr Green insisted such a move was "very unlikely" to be copied here: "Telling people what they can and can't wear, if they're just walking down the street, is a rather un-British thing to do."

There were occasions when it was important to be able to see someone's face, he said. "But I think it's very unlikely and it would be undesirable for the British Parliament to try and pass a law dictating what people wore."

Unlike France, the UK was not "aggressively secular", he said, suggesting the proposed ban across the Channel was being brought in to make a point.

The French legislation, which is backed by President Nicolas Sarkozy, will pass to the upper house, or Senate, in September.

Maybe we should have a "WEAR A BURQUA" day.

Wot ya reckon the powers that be would have to say?

No discrimination allowed, against the law.

Banks would love it........NOT

Imagine hordes of burqua wearing people on trains, ebtering shops etc.

In Iraq, suicide bombers, hims and hers, have worn them.

Spell edit

In the UK we have a cabinet minister who is the daughter of Pakistani immigrants.

Although Baroness Warsi is usually dressed as a conventional British businesswoman / prosperous lady, I doubt that she would accept such a move from her cabinet colleagues.

And anyway, we are not as xenophobic as the frogs - we are prepared to accept all races, creeds, nationalities, minorities - provided they don't ask for dole money for at least three weeks after they arrive in UK.

After that they should be aware enough of the social services facilities to be able to sign on and never work again.

I must say, I see more women wearing veils in Pattaya than I do in any part of UK except London. It seems that many arab men bring their families here for a vacation, change into shorts and t-shirt themselves, but insist that the female part of the family maintain the veiled tradition of their homeland.

And outside of the arab lands, only Iran and Afghanistan seem to insist on the veil. Indonesia, Malaysia and (muslim) Philippines just have headscarves, as Iran used to in the days of the Shah. To my mind this is not Islamic dress code, it is Middle Eastern dress code. (Plus the idiots in the 'stan)

In Britain, the proposal is "a private members' bill which would make it illegal for people to cover their faces in public.", which would put an end to Ronald MacDonald, gas-masked workers entering a sewer or hazard, Japanese with smogphobia, riot-geared police, false-bearded Santas, Grizzly Adams lookalikes, motorcycle riders would have to have a few minutes dispensation once they dismount, and Lady Gaga could never play London.....

It's an unworkable proposal.

Is the French proposition specifically burqas?

Unfortunately there aren't enough Tories in Parliament to pass this bill....if only....I can see the bleeding heart liberals demanding their right to wear a tent being dragged off to prison for a spell of hard labour for a change....a pipe dream.....putting the Great size 11 boot into Britain for a change.

None of the measures proposed, in France or elsewhere, are to get rid of the abbaya - just the face covering (niqab in arab countries) or all-enveloping tent (burqa in afghanistan). I would also assume that the partial face covering in Iran (one holds the chador in ones teeth) would come under scrutiny. To cover the hair is an accepted custom throughout Islam, also in strictly Orthodox Judaism. (Usually with a wig, though). This does not go against most proposals, as the face is visible.

During my many years in Saudi Arabia, UAE, Iran and Libya I have seen many different attitudes to this tenet of the Islamic faith.

In Iran there was (in the Shah's time) big debate on whether the injunction on dressing within the Quran "Put your clothes over your head" meant that one was to get dressed from the top-down, or cover one's hair or cover completely. Different interpretations (as with many things religious) for different communities.

On one Saudi tour, with my European (white-blond) wife, we had several run-ins with the Muttawwa (religious police) because of her reluctance to cover her hair. She'd wear the abbayya (the long black over-garment from shoulders to toes) but was not happy putting anything on her head, as she had never done so. She would probably have refused a crash-helmet on a motor-bike for the same reason - she didn't feel comfortable.

But she had to conform - not with a niqab, but with a black scarf that covered her hair. Face still visible.

In the Emirates not so strict, but the locals would touch her hair.

In Libya no problem, many local women would wear a head-scarf, but it was not enforced in Benghazi or Tripoli. Otherwise ordinary western-style clothes with long sleeves and longish skirts.

Iran, in my time there, was a very cosmopolitan country, like southern Italy, say, but with far more attractive women. If you like dark-haired women, then Iran has probably more beautiful women per number of population than any other country. The would basically dress western-style, but travelled by car in most cases.

Our maid/baby-sitter was of a more religious bent and wore a chador. But in the evening, after baby-sitting, I would drive her home - a thing unheard of in any arab country I have been in, where a taxi would be expected. ("Never drive alone with a man not your husband - taxi drivers don't count" is the philosophy of te Middle East).

I do not believe that the face covering is a law of Islam. The requirement is modesty, not hiding away. It is solely a way an inadequate man controls his wife and grown-up daughters. And there are many inadequate men.

I have no problem with people covering their faces except during violent protests advocating violence. A separate law could be written for that. If you want to join in a protest march then make it illegal to hide your identity. Can you imagine what would happen if I walked into a bank wearing a black ski mask... even if I DIDN'T make any demands?

"....I do not believe that the face covering is a law of Islam. The requirement is modesty, not hiding away. It is solely a way an inadequate man controls his wife and grown-up daughters. And there are many inadequate men. .."

A couple of points....I believe Islam, like Christianity, has several "denominations", and, also like Christianity, the denominations are based on various interpretations, therefore, it may be a little innacurate to imply that a law of one denomination is not a law of Islam....true it may not be a law of all of Islam...but aside from the ten comandments, what universal law exists in Christianity and Islam?

I have no doubt that many inadequate men are very glad of the law/edict/interpretation....but that doesn't preclude any sincere followers of that particular interpretation.

I think the proposal has some basis in genuine concerns, but only some.

Here is a fairly independent source :

http://www.godsmosque.org/AboutIslamHeadcovers.html

FACTS ABOUT ISLAM

About Islam; Why Do Muslim Women Have To Wear Head Covers? by Kris A.O.

Many people in the West believe head covers are required attire for Muslim Women. Most Muslim women, for that matter, are not sure what God's exact requirements are for their "Islamic" dress code. Since religious scholars come from diverse religious schools of thought, then of course there are vast differences between what's consider to be appropriate women's clothing. Some believe head covers are a necessity for pious Muslim women, while others don't. In order to come to the correct understanding on required garments, it is important to explore what God tells us through His scripture, the Quran. Refering back to the Quran allows us to avoid confusion from contrasting opinions. There will be no contradictions, and the truth will be exhibited.

Upon referencing the English Quran tanslation by Dr. Rashad Khalifa, we find nowhere in the Quran does it require women to cover their hair, arms, legs, etc. The religious rules imposing head covers, or Hijab, are from sources outside of the Quran; mainly from religious scholar’s edicts, and Hadith [1]. However, it is not wrong to wear head covers on account of cultural tradition, and so rules should not be imposed stating that head covers can not be worn. The rules in the Quran for women’s dress code are as follows. First, the best garment is the garment of righteousness; for women and men [2]. Second, women shall cover their chests, and reveal only what is necessary. This implies modesty [3]. Third, women shall lengthen their garments to be recognized as righteous [4]. Fourth and final, women AND men shall subdue their eyes and maintain their chastity [5]. We can now see that in the Quran, the parameters of the Muslim women's dress code are simple and unimposing [6].

Relevant Quran Verses: [1] 12:111, 31:6, 39:23, 39:29, 45:6, 52:34; [2] 7:26; [3] 24:31; [4] 33:59; [5] 24:30-31; [6] Appendix 18, and Appendix 19 of the Quran translation by Rashad Khalifa.

The references at the end are to the verses within the various Sura that compose the Quran.

The ladies in France which I have seen, even wear black gloves when they go out.

A question that's often bothered me......well not that often......well hardly ever.....okay I just thought of it....is how do they get through immigration at the airport? How does the officer know it's them under that veil?

Anyway, let's face it it's only because of the Islamic nutters that anybody gives a dam_n what they wear. A bit like trying to ban shaved heads and tattoos because football holigans are that way.

Try walking into an English bank with a ski-mask on in the middle of summer.

For me it is not the fact that they want to be different and follow their religion it is the simple racist view that id a person from the Sainted Isles wishes to do the same THEY are not allowed to.

With all this publicity what odds on an armed blagging in the near future with the Burks concealing arms for the job ?

A question that's often bothered me......well not that often......well hardly ever.....okay I just thought of it....is how do they get through immigration at the airport? How does the officer know it's them under that veil?

From what I've seen, usually the husband/father picks up all the passports (four wives, a dozen kids, three maids) and presents them.

He then goes through immigration control, the wives, kids, maids all pick up the enormous blanket-wrapped bundles they've taken on the aircraft as cabin baggage and walk through in order of seniority.

The immi officer just counts the number of Guiness bottles to make sure it tallies with the number of passports.

It seems to be the British have become as tolerant as an inflatable doll.

Good luck to you Blighty

Right I know I shouldn't but he comes a rant !!!!!!!

Last year flew back to UK to drop daughter of at uni. On the way stopped in London as she loves live theatre.

Splashed out on " Royal Box" tickets for the sell out " Lion King " West End performance.

Sat in ( expensive ) seats and amazed to find entire row behind me empty. To either side American and japanese tourists, all well dressed all well behaved. Curtains down, show starts. Ten minutes after doors closed in comes Arab family. One father four wives and enough children to fill the rest of the row. Father immediately falls asleep. Kids talk, scream, run around kicking chairs, completely uncontrollable, specially male offspring who covered black ninja wives had no control of whatsoever.

Show ruined for all, staff of theatre doing nothing. Lights go up I make a bee-line for Father and tell him in no uncertain terms to control his family. Other tourists cheer, so Arab losses face and starts to get upset threatening violence. Now this makes me happy as I'm rather large and not known for hanging about if you get my drift. For the first time staff appear and ask me to step outside and explain the problem. I do, and wait for it, I'm told said Arab is a wealthy benefactor of said theatre and there's nothing they can do. On top of which they tell me if he complains, I will be treated as being racist and may well be asked to leave.

My flabber was well and truly ghasted,

Luckily, American and Japanese ladies appear ( not the men ), totally back me up and demand action. Scene is being created now by half the audience all demanding said Arabs behave or leave. Father gives me death stare, gathers family and with a great show leaves the theatre to cheers of onlookers who ply me with free drink at half time.

Rest of show wonderful. On way out informed by management said Arab wishes to complain about me and will I give my name. Anglo Saxon exchange follows with me telling them they are a disgrace and bad manners ruining a performance and show for all, seemed not to matter as long as the " Arabs" were not upset Sheepishly staff mutter sorry and withdraw.

Little tale shows what some people call their cultural right ( i.e., male children can do what the hel_l they like as long as family have power in their own country ) other people will simply call bad manners and unacceptable. I find In my country it is totally unacceptable for people to go around masked and living in their own medieval world, to the detriment of the local culture. Call me a racist if you will, but try wearing a bikini in Saudi and see where that gets you.

Right I know I shouldn't but he comes a rant !!!!!!!

Sat in ( expensive ) seats and amazed to find entire row behind me empty. To either side American and japanese tourists, all well dressed all well behaved. Curtains down, show starts. Ten minutes after doors closed in comes Arab family. One father four wives and enough children to fill the rest of the row. Father immediately falls asleep. Kids talk, scream, run around kicking chairs, completely uncontrollable, specially male offspring who covered black ninja wives had no control of whatsoever.

Little tale shows what some people call their cultural right ( i.e., male children can do what the hel_l they like as long as family have power in their own country ) other people will simply call bad manners and unacceptable. I find In my country it is totally unacceptable for people to go around masked and living in their own medieval world, to the detriment of the local culture. Call me a racist if you will, but try wearing a bikini in Saudi and see where that gets you.

Having spent about 25 of the past 35 years in arab countries I understand you very well. The horrid little brats are allowed to run riot all the time, and many grow up without any social conscience whatever. I had a very good client in Saudi - I built him three large house for himself and his two eldest sons. Swimming pools, guest houses, landscaped gardens, everything one could imagine.

The guy himself was a real gentleman, although a tough businessman. Among his many assets were cold stores for fruit, a very large residential compound and so on.

When I went back into his houses to discuss some improvements I visited his middle son's house. (The youngest son didn't have a house - he was at Uni in Germany). In this house was a collection of air rifles and .22 rifles. I chatted with the son and asked him where he went shooting. "Oh, here." he says. "I like to hit the cars going up Malik Road."

I mentioned this to a friend, who said "Oh, my driver lives in S's compound. Last week both sons were in ther, drunk, beating up Indian and Pakistani residents." Evidently no one complained because they knew that the father had a lot of influence.

I talked to both sons (in their twenties) about what I had seen and heard and asked if their father was aware of what they were doing and how they lived. Both laughed and said that they could do whatever they liked, no one, not their father, would stop them.

Trouble was, the father had so much money they would never have to work, even if they lost all the businesses - plantations in Ecuador, Indonesia and other countries, cold stores, so on, and a reputation for quality that was most rare in Saudi. So I did nothing, but never offered any further business either.

Edit - in Libya there were very few things to amuse kids during the eighties. Boycotts and so on made life difficult.

All the local boys would play out in the streets and had only one game. Throwing rocks at each other. Night after night, dozens of 'orrid little rag'eads heaving rocks.

My Egyptian assistant's brother was headmaster of a local school. I was told that he set the passmark for the end of year exams at 15%, but the local education ministry set it at 5%, because so few had passed. (But Egyptians and Libyans are not friendly neighbours, so I don't know how true this is)

A question that's often bothered me......well not that often......well hardly ever.....okay I just thought of it....is how do they get through immigration at the airport? How does the officer know it's them under that veil?

In Riyadh at the Immigration desk, the husband just gives all the passports and they let them through. When they get to the security scanner, the women have to go through a seperate curtained booth, to be checked by a woman.

if you banned certain religious dress codes. the poor fellas wouldnt have anything to hold on too, whilst engaging in pre-marriage sex.

ie giving the next mrs bin laden one up the gary glitter.

This in this morning's New Zealand Herald.

Syria bans full face veils at universities

Syria has forbidden the country's students and teachers from wearing the niqab - the full Islamic veil that reveals only a woman's eyes - taking aim at a garment many see as political.

The ban shows a rare point of agreement between Syria's secular, authoritarian government and the democracies of Europe: Both view the niqab as a potentially destabilising threat.

"We have given directives to all universities to ban niqab-wearing women from registering," a government official in Damascus told The Associated Press on Monday.

Full story.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/human-rights/news/article.cfm?c_id=500838&objectid=10660082

This in this morning's New Zealand Herald.

Syria bans full face veils at universities

Syria has forbidden the country's students and teachers from wearing the niqab - the full Islamic veil that reveals only a woman's eyes - taking aim at a garment many see as political.

The ban shows a rare point of agreement between Syria's secular, authoritarian government and the democracies of Europe: Both view the niqab as a potentially destabilising threat.

"We have given directives to all universities to ban niqab-wearing women from registering," a government official in Damascus told The Associated Press on Monday.

Full story.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/human-rights/news/article.cfm?c_id=500838&objectid=10660082

This is probably more a Baathist action against devout Moslems, which, given the discussions in Europe and the US at the moment, the government (i.e. Bashir) thought they could get away with.

Politics in this area is very confusing - one finds in Palestine, for instance the socialist Fatah (anti-religious and women wearing western dress) and Hamas (very religious and women wearing the veil) at each other's throats as much as they are against Israel and as much as both are still supporting terrorist factions within their organisations.

If Palestine does get statehood properly, there will be a civil war to annihilation - Fatah supported by Egypt, Syria and parts of Lebanon, Hamas supported by Iran and the Muslim Brotherhood (who were founded in Egypt but are now outlawed there and are based in Syria). Complicated, ain't it.

This in this morning's New Zealand Herald.

Syria bans full face veils at universities

Syria has forbidden the country's students and teachers from wearing the niqab - the full Islamic veil that reveals only a woman's eyes - taking aim at a garment many see as political.

The ban shows a rare point of agreement between Syria's secular, authoritarian government and the democracies of Europe: Both view the niqab as a potentially destabilising threat.

"We have given directives to all universities to ban niqab-wearing women from registering," a government official in Damascus told The Associated Press on Monday.

Full story.

http://www.nzherald....jectid=10660082

This is probably more a Baathist action against devout Moslems, which, given the discussions in Europe and the US at the moment, the government (i.e. Bashir) thought they could get away with.

Politics in this area is very confusing - one finds in Palestine, for instance the socialist Fatah (anti-religious and women wearing western dress) and Hamas (very religious and women wearing the veil) at each other's throats as much as they are against Israel and as much as both are still supporting terrorist factions within their organisations.

If Palestine does get statehood properly, there will be a civil war to annihilation - Fatah supported by Egypt, Syria and parts of Lebanon, Hamas supported by Iran and the Muslim Brotherhood (who were founded in Egypt but are now outlawed there and are based in Syria). Complicated, ain't it.

I have a .pps file that all women and burqua sympathisers should read.

Unfortunately, I am not allowed to upload .pps type files??????.

Dunno why, not XXX in any way,

Thanks for sharing that pete.........

Without a big, black burka where is a militant Moslem going to hide his machine gun or dynamite? Wti a full face veil you can't tell if the person is male or female. We need a little leeway here.

Having grown up in the SE US and presently in Atlanta GA, I see often Islamic women wearing burkas and niqabs in the local markets. It brings to mind the hooded KKK of the not too distant past, and I find it culturally insensitive of them to wear them, without regards of our sordid past, and how people will perceive them.

Culturally insensitive because it reminds you of the KKK??? That's a rather long bow to draw!

I think that much of the overly-PC mollycoddling of other cultures, particularly ME culture, stems from a guilt complex from the way the West has treated the ME over the past 100 years or more.

Right I know I shouldn't but he comes a rant !!!!!!!

Last year flew back to UK to drop daughter of at uni. On the way stopped in London as she loves live theatre.

Splashed out on " Royal Box" tickets for the sell out " Lion King " West End performance.

Sat in ( expensive ) seats and amazed to find entire row behind me empty. To either side American and japanese tourists, all well dressed all well behaved. Curtains down, show starts. Ten minutes after doors closed in comes Arab family. One father four wives and enough children to fill the rest of the row. Father immediately falls asleep. Kids talk, scream, run around kicking chairs, completely uncontrollable, specially male offspring who covered black ninja wives had no control of whatsoever.

Show ruined for all, staff of theatre doing nothing. Lights go up I make a bee-line for Father and tell him in no uncertain terms to control his family. Other tourists cheer, so Arab losses face and starts to get upset threatening violence. Now this makes me happy as I'm rather large and not known for hanging about if you get my drift. For the first time staff appear and ask me to step outside and explain the problem. I do, and wait for it, I'm told said Arab is a wealthy benefactor of said theatre and there's nothing they can do. On top of which they tell me if he complains, I will be treated as being racist and may well be asked to leave.

My flabber was well and truly ghasted,

Luckily, American and Japanese ladies appear ( not the men ), totally back me up and demand action. Scene is being created now by half the audience all demanding said Arabs behave or leave. Father gives me death stare, gathers family and with a great show leaves the theatre to cheers of onlookers who ply me with free drink at half time.

Rest of show wonderful. On way out informed by management said Arab wishes to complain about me and will I give my name. Anglo Saxon exchange follows with me telling them they are a disgrace and bad manners ruining a performance and show for all, seemed not to matter as long as the " Arabs" were not upset Sheepishly staff mutter sorry and withdraw.

Little tale shows what some people call their cultural right ( i.e., male children can do what the hel_l they like as long as family have power in their own country ) other people will simply call bad manners and unacceptable. I find In my country it is totally unacceptable for people to go around masked and living in their own medieval world, to the detriment of the local culture. Call me a racist if you will, but try wearing a bikini in Saudi and see where that gets you.

With you 100%, well done. Somebody once said to me,

' You can take them out of the jungle, but you cannot take the jungle out of them '. Read that as you will, it is not racist, it is fact..

Just as "fact" as you can take your bar-girl wife out of the bar, but you can't take the bargirl out of your wife.

Having grown up in the SE US and presently in Atlanta GA, I see often Islamic women wearing burkas and niqabs in the local markets. It brings to mind the hooded KKK of the not too distant past, and I find it culturally insensitive of them to wear them, without regards of our sordid past, and how people will perceive them.

If you want a story about Kluckers and their dress ...

I was working in Nigeria - Port Harcourt.

We lived near the Shell compound, but were not of it, although I visited quite often.

One Sunday morning, out for a walk, I met several families on their way to church. Don't know which denomination.

These were all Nigerian families and were all dressed in their church-going clothes - long white gowns, tall conical hats going to a peak, with a face-piece. The face-pieces were turned up, so there were all these white-robed people, fathers, wives, kids, in an absolute copy of the KKK uniform, but with big, round, happy, smiling black faces looking out at the world.

I regret not having my camera with me at the time, as the photo would have been a world best seller.

I couldn't resist posting this pic.

So much for covering heads

I dont care what they wear in the privacy of their home or out on the streets in shops etc but....when it comes to dealing with public services, banking, airports for example, they should be restricted. I would also refuse to allow my son to be taught by a teacher who wore one. I personally find the whole premise abhorrent but if they (women) want to be controlled (and this applies to even just having to cover head, arms & wear modest dress) then that's their call. Just don't expect me to back your cause.

I dont care what they wear in the privacy of their home or out on the streets in shops etc but....when it comes to dealing with public services, banking, airports for example, they should be restricted. I would also refuse to allow my son to be taught by a teacher who wore one. I personally find the whole premise abhorrent but if they (women) want to be controlled (and this applies to even just having to cover head, arms & wear modest dress) then that's their call. Just don't expect me to back your cause.

On thie I agree with Boo. I've got a PDF file that examines the whole subject of burkas and it reveals the true story behind the reasons for subjugating women in this practise.. It basically treats women as slaves with no rights at all, and with little or no medical treatment. There are varying degrees, but the worst by far are the ones enforced by the Taliban group.