Pigs 101 (A Start)

[FarAwayBen]

IA & revar,

Really good info into the realites of this situation we are getting into. I do like revar's advice on providing better quality/service and additional service (such as a feed shop). Most of the farmers in this area seem to cut as many corners as possible and don't really have their heart in it, in that it's just something they do on the side. There is one exception to this, and it seems like his big business is studding. But what you guys made me realize was that we have to take their "assistance" with a grain of salt. My wife has a tendency to overtrust, and it sounds like the pig game is not the place for that, so I have to reign her in a bit, I think. I suspect all the friendliness we've encountered, which I translated as just good hearted nature, may actually have other motives than to help us along. (Sales sales)..

You guys gave a lot of info to soak up. The real challenging part is discussing these matters with my wife. Also, she has a hot heart so I am going to have to remind her that this is going to take time.

I will read through this thread for more info, in the meantime, and come back later with more questions! And thanks for the tips on pricing. I have a feeling my wife isn't getting the real scoop on that either. It all sounds suspicious to me, in regards to locally obtained info.

I am subscribed and will be following along. Thanks IA for starting this up!

Ben

[IsaanAussie]

Get your wife informed, if she is internet literate (no disrespect meant) then ask her to find the swinethailand website and check the current regional prices. Pigfarming is no different to anything else, cultural rules first, Pee Nong stuff, so if she has been fed a line then get her to find out for herself. Then she will work around calling the offenders, older or not, the BS artists they really are.

What I suppose Revar and I are really suggesting is you cannot rely on a single focused income stream. Revar getting further into the supply chain of pigs, I move laterally into composts and organics. His integration is vertical and mine is circular.

On a lighter note, is one of us right or wrong? Who knows. I just hope my circular path doesnt conclude with me disappearing up my own fundamental orifice.

Edited June 28, 2012 by IsaanAussie

[FarAwayBen]

Good advice. Thanks, IA.. I just brought up the site and saw the Isaan prices at 57/k (she hasn't been in to look yet, maybe tomorrow).. How much would you say a weened baby piglet weighs? I was under the impression the piglets sold at a flat rate, and not per kilo. Also, my wife informs me that "breeder mothers" sell for more money than a pig being sold for slaughter. This sounds like a line to me as well. Anyways, I did the math and it sounds like a 14k piglet would match what she was "told" is the current sell price. but we are discussing, thanks to the help of Google Translate, what the word competitive means, and how what she's heard isn't necessarily accurate.

I see what you mean about balancing out and not relying on only one income stream. If the recent reduction in prices by Yingluck is true (the gas prices, anyways, would indicate it) then it sounds like good business strategy to do as you guys are doing.

You mentioned feed selling for 400+ baht a bag for a breeding mother. This is well under the price we've gotten feed for locally (i'll be getting feed in the city from now on). What brand/grade feed are you talking about? Also, what do you cut it with as a stomach filler, and how much per kilo? We have been using rice husk powder that we get at 7baht per kilo.

Thanks again,

Ben

[IsaanAussie]

Q:How much would you say a weened baby piglet weighs?

A:At what age is it weaned? At 28 days my piglets vary between 8 and 9 kgs.

Q: piglets sold at a flat rate, and not per kilo.

A: Both are true. The price is set based on a weight of a weaned piglet and the difference per kg up or down. What the base weight is, now that is not consistent nationally

Q" "breeder mothers" sell for more money than a pig being sold for slaughter. This sounds like a line to me as well.

A: True breeding pigs are more valuable. I breed my own replacement gilts so I believe I have a reasonable eye for constitution and can surely count the teats. But I do not decide until the pig is at 60 kg. Good idea as a piglet but way too soon.

Q: Anyways, I did the math and it sounds like a 14k piglet would match what she was "told" is the current sell price.

A: Most people will tell that you that base rate is between 14 and 16 kg.

Q: then it sounds like good business strategy to do as you guys are doing.

A: Cover your bets. The industry prices and direction are effected by regulation, corporate giants and collusion.

Q: You mentioned feed selling for 400+ baht a bag for a breeding mother. This is well under the price we've gotten feed for locally (i'll be getting feed in the city from now on). What brand/grade feed are you talking about?

A: I use Betagro Balance 956 and 957 for the sows. It is one of the cheaper labels that Betagro have but I have had good results with it.

Q: what do you cut it with as a stomach filler, and how much per kilo? We have been using rice husk powder that we get at 7baht per kilo.

A: Protein and fibre. Not regularly though. As a general rule I fed to diet with the breeding herd not to appetite. Getting a sow to fat before she gives birth will slow her feed intake in lactation. Building her up again after weaning til she is fat will reduce her litter size and inclination to match.

Rice husk granulated, is about 7 to 8% protein but way high fibre, feed her a cardboard box instead. I remember reading somewhere a dietician saying the box had more goodness than the corn flakes.

Rice bran comes in difference levels of protein. I sounds that you are actually buying the first bran removed which also contains husk. If you want high protein bran than you buy the bram and germ from the polishing stage that is 13% protein and I pay 12 baht a Kg for it. Too expensive to feed to the pigs though.

[revar]

Isaanaussi , thanks for your advice. Sorry but I'll keep my boar myself I think. I will have the vet take a close look at his feet. This vet has also offered to do ai for us when we start into breeding. The timing seems right for me as I was thinking to start trying breeding in about beginning next year. I will place the boar in a separate sty and won't slaughter him at 100kg. He will get the chance to grow further and be our first 'father'.

At the moment he is in a pens with 12 other pigs, but he is already very trusty and generally laid back in nature. At what age should I put him alone?

Sent from my GT-S6102 using Thaivisa Connect App

[Brabo]

I have boar which I bought at 12kg who is after 2 months almost 70 kg of muscles (the other pigs I bought at the same time are 40-50 kg with fat). He gets huge testicles. It seems a shame to slaughter him for meat but I don't know much about taking care of a boar. I was planning to wait with getting into breeding for at least a year, but now I am reconsidering. How old must a boar be before he can be used to breed?

Can anyone can tell me what breed this might be. I thought height be duroc, but he is completely red-brown.

Sent from my GT-S6102 using Thaivisa Connect App

Hi Revar,

Looking at the colour I would say it is a Duroc, but with the ears of a Large White. So he is probably a crossbreed. Verry good to use as a finnishing boar (for breeding fattening pigs).

[Brabo]

Q:How much would you say a weened baby piglet weighs?

A:At what age is it weaned? At 28 days my piglets vary between 8 and 9 kgs.

Q: piglets sold at a flat rate, and not per kilo.

A: Both are true. The price is set based on a weight of a weaned piglet and the difference per kg up or down. What the base weight is, now that is not consistent nationally

Q" "breeder mothers" sell for more money than a pig being sold for slaughter. This sounds like a line to me as well.

A: True breeding pigs are more valuable. I breed my own replacement gilts so I believe I have a reasonable eye for constitution and can surely count the teats. But I do not decide until the pig is at 60 kg. Good idea as a piglet but way too soon.

Q: Anyways, I did the math and it sounds like a 14k piglet would match what she was "told" is the current sell price.

A: Most people will tell that you that base rate is between 14 and 16 kg.

Q: then it sounds like good business strategy to do as you guys are doing.

A: Cover your bets. The industry prices and direction are effected by regulation, corporate giants and collusion.

Q: You mentioned feed selling for 400+ baht a bag for a breeding mother. This is well under the price we've gotten feed for locally (i'll be getting feed in the city from now on). What brand/grade feed are you talking about?

A: I use Betagro Balance 956 and 957 for the sows. It is one of the cheaper labels that Betagro have but I have had good results with it.

Q: what do you cut it with as a stomach filler, and how much per kilo? We have been using rice husk powder that we get at 7baht per kilo.

A: Protein and fibre. Not regularly though. As a general rule I fed to diet with the breeding herd not to appetite. Getting a sow to fat before she gives birth will slow her feed intake in lactation. Building her up again after weaning til she is fat will reduce her litter size and inclination to match.

Rice husk granulated, is about 7 to 8% protein but way high fibre, feed her a cardboard box instead. I remember reading somewhere a dietician saying the box had more goodness than the corn flakes.

Rice bran comes in difference levels of protein. I sounds that you are actually buying the first bran removed which also contains husk. If you want high protein bran than you buy the bram and germ from the polishing stage that is 13% protein and I pay 12 baht a Kg for it. Too expensive to feed to the pigs though.

As always, I A provides us with complete and professional answers and leaves us with nothing to say more :-)

[IsaanAussie]

Isaanaussi , thanks for your advice. Sorry but I'll keep my boar myself I think. I will have the vet take a close look at his feet. This vet has also offered to do ai for us when we start into breeding. The timing seems right for me as I was thinking to start trying breeding in about beginning next year. I will place the boar in a separate sty and won't slaughter him at 100kg. He will get the chance to grow further and be our first 'father'.

At the moment he is in a pens with 12 other pigs, but he is already very trusty and generally laid back in nature. At what age should I put him alone?

Sent from my GT-S6102 using Thaivisa Connect App

Young boars can be a problem with other pigs both females and other males. You should keep an eye on his behaviour. It will start to change possibly at four months old. Social contact is important too so I would tend to leave him with other pigs for as long as you can just from a welfare point of view. If you want to stay safe put him a pen where he can make physical contact but not problems. As gilts come into first heat is usually when the issues start.

[IsaanAussie]

Hi Revar,

Looking at the colour I would say it is a Duroc, but with the ears of a Large White. So he is probably a crossbreed. Verry good to use as a finnishing boar (for breeding fattening pigs).

I think you are spot on. Durocs are often used to produce F1 crosses with white sows and often a pig like this boar is the result. The boar I have is one whose heritage is a complex one. Short version is pure duroc (what's that?) crossed landrace to lengthen and then back to duroc for meat quality. My target was to produce durocs that are longer and lower. Short strong legs and longer middles hence loin. The boar that I was talking about getting rid of was one I acquired and had hoped to get his muscle mass into the mix. Oh well maybe next time!

[Brabo]

Hi guys,

A friend of mine, who lives in Tatum, Surin, wants to start a pigfarm.

His wife is overwelmed buy the sweettalk of a farm owner overthere:

1) This farm only have Black pigs with long hair, about 300 pc

2) All the pigs have tatoos and earmarks

3) The owner claims to sell at more than 150 bath/kg LIVEWEIGHT !!!

4) The owner told my friend not to give any information about the farm, the race, ...

5) The farm owner will NEVER sell to an amateur (as myself)

Does anyone know this "topsecret farm" ? Or the race he is breeding?

Is it all sweettalk or is there any truth in his story?

[IsaanAussie]

Hi guys,

A friend of mine, who lives in Tatum, Surin, wants to start a pigfarm.

His wife is overwelmed buy the sweettalk of a farm owner overthere:

1) This farm only have Black pigs with long hair, about 300 pc

2) All the pigs have tatoos and earmarks

3) The owner claims to sell at more than 150 bath/kg LIVEWEIGHT !!!

4) The owner told my friend not to give any information about the farm, the race, ...

5) The farm owner will NEVER sell to an amateur (as myself)

Does anyone know this "topsecret farm" ? Or the race he is breeding?

Is it all sweettalk or is there any truth in his story?

Dont know the farm but the pigs could be a breed of Asian native pig or an imported one such as the Large Black Pigs that are farmed in Australia. But the rest tells me there is more fish meal in those pigs diet than is healthy. Ever heard of emu farming etc... rare animals with "unexplored" potential? If I was trying to sell pigs at 150 baht a kg the last thing I would do is keep it a secret.

Edited June 28, 2012 by IsaanAussie

[IsaanAussie]

Attached is an article I borrowed from Feed Inetrnational. It deals with the issue of supplementary feeding suckling piglets diets high in dairy products trying to get the piglets to eat more. It is something that seems topical for several posters here at the point where issues of poor milking sows, larger litters and smaller piglets. As I have said before the starter feed in the range I use is not the answer for creep feeding. Others I have tried dont seem much better. My solution has been to lace the feed with milk powder.

I can buy powdered milk for 60baht a kg or lactose calf milk replacer for 90 baht. Now I am starting to think milk powder, rice bran and probiotic may give me an alternative to starting then off on pellet feed and get the lactic acid bacteria built up faster.

I still get the occassional wasting away piglet and some that scour. I am trying to get rid of the antibiotics and hormones since I dont believe they contribute much any way.

Piglets and diary diets.pdf

IA

PS. Rice bran may not be the answer as it is vegetable protein afterall. Maybe fishmeal would be better. I need to check digestibility.

Edited June 28, 2012 by IsaanAussie

[Brabo]

Hi guys,

A friend of mine, who lives in Tatum, Surin, wants to start a pigfarm.

His wife is overwelmed buy the sweettalk of a farm owner overthere:

1) This farm only have Black pigs with long hair, about 300 pc

2) All the pigs have tatoos and earmarks

3) The owner claims to sell at more than 150 bath/kg LIVEWEIGHT !!!

4) The owner told my friend not to give any information about the farm, the race, ...

5) The farm owner will NEVER sell to an amateur (as myself)

Does anyone know this "topsecret farm" ? Or the race he is breeding?

Is it all sweettalk or is there any truth in his story?

Dont know the farm but the pigs could be a breed of Asian native pig or an imported one such as the Large Black Pigs that are farmed in Australia. But the rest tells me there is more fish meal in those pigs diet than is healthy. Ever heard of emu farming etc... rare animals with "unexplored" potential? If I was trying to sell pigs at 150 baht a kg the last thing I would do is keep it a secret.

I personally tought that if there would be any truth in the story, it would be the "Japanese Kurobuta". But they don't have long hair and are , as far as I know, not Imported in Thailand. The price would even be higher.

My more oridinar guess is that this farmer is trying to get a high price for Asian Native pigs, just as you said, and earmarks the pigs himself.

Is it legal to earmark your own pigs?

Maybe we can breed a "Thaivisa Landrace" , earmark them, and sell them for big money with "Thaivisa registration-papers".

[Brabo]

Attached is an article I borrowed from Feed Inetrnational. It deals with the issue of supplementary feeding suckling piglets diets high in dairy products trying to get the piglets to eat more. It is something that seems topical for several posters here at the point where issues of poor milking sows, larger litters and smaller piglets. As I have said before the starter feed in the range I use is not the answer for creep feeding. Others I have tried dont seem much better. My solution has been to lace the feed with milk powder.

I can buy powdered milk for 60baht a kg or lactose calf milk replacer for 90 baht. Now I am starting to think milk powder, rice bran and probiotic may give me an alternative to starting then off on pellet feed and get the lactic acid bacteria built up faster.

I still get the occassional wasting away piglet and some that scour. I am trying to get rid of the antibiotics and hormones since I dont believe they contribute much any way.

Piglets and diary diets.pdf

IA

PS. Rice bran may not be the answer as it is vegetable protein afterall. Maybe fishmeal would be better. I need to check digestibility.

I personally am not in favor of fishmeal. Pigs, more than other annimals, tast the same as their food ...

I like your way of working with probiotics and would like to learn more about it.

[pigeonjake]

when our little ones come, we allways give them baby milk powder mixed with water of course, into a bowl after the first day they soon come running for it as well as the normal first baby pig food, the vet told us who is also our feed merchant that cow milk replaser isnt much good for pigs, she called it tail milk,,lol,, just what she said,

i was told years ago by a pig farmer in england feeding young pigs to much to early can course diatrey scours witch in turn can lead to bacterial scours, so we give the milk but not to much food,

but like we all say before its every mans way, what works for me, might not work for others,

and i dont claim to be as knolageble as others on here in any case,,

jake

[IsaanAussie]

Importing genetically improved pigs has been somewhat of a rage here for some time. They are expensive but undoubtedly will improve lean yields and litter sizes. There are also some very keen young Thais who are improving the quality of Thai pig farms around here. All good moves with the agri giants getting out of pig raising.

If we did improve a breed I feel we would need a less visa related name if the intent is to focus attention on the pigs not ourselves.

[IsaanAussie]

when our little ones come, we allways give them baby milk powder mixed with water of course, into a bowl after the first day they soon come running for it as well as the normal first baby pig food, the vet told us who is also our feed merchant that cow milk replaser isnt much good for pigs, she called it tail milk,,lol,, just what she said,

i was told years ago by a pig farmer in england feeding young pigs to much to early can course diatrey scours witch in turn can lead to bacterial scours, so we give the milk but not to much food,

but like we all say before its every mans way, what works for me, might not work for others,

and i dont claim to be as knolageble as others on here in any case,,

jake

The objective is to build the gut biology whilst the digestive tract develops. The probiotic I brew to put in the drinking water does exactly that. I think you are on the right track Jake, I dont usually give piglets anything but water for the first week, so I will give that a shot next time. Thanks.

[Brabo]

when our little ones come, we allways give them baby milk powder mixed with water of course, into a bowl after the first day they soon come running for it as well as the normal first baby pig food, the vet told us who is also our feed merchant that cow milk replaser isnt much good for pigs, she called it tail milk,,lol,, just what she said,

i was told years ago by a pig farmer in england feeding young pigs to much to early can course diatrey scours witch in turn can lead to bacterial scours, so we give the milk but not to much food,

but like we all say before its every mans way, what works for me, might not work for others,

and i dont claim to be as knolageble as others on here in any case,,

jake

Jake,

Your post makes sense. I will certainly give it a try.

Thanks for the tip.

[Brabo]

Importing genetically improved pigs has been somewhat of a rage here for some time. They are expensive but undoubtedly will improve lean yields and litter sizes. There are also some very keen young Thais who are improving the quality of Thai pig farms around here. All good moves with the agri giants getting out of pig raising.

If we did improve a breed I feel we would need a less visa related name if the intent is to focus attention on the pigs not ourselves.

I was only joking about breeding our own breed.

I don't have the knowledge.

I am already happy when I can breed good, healthy pigs and sell them for a fair price.

On the other hand, I am always willing to learn :-)

[pigeonjake]

IA,, i might be well of track here, but i was let to believe that lactic acid was, to put in laymens words stiffness in your legs after you have done a big run or something,

i was a very good pigeon man in england, and when a pigeon went to a race and treid very hard there was allways a build up of lactic acid in them, becouse when they use all there stored energy they start to burn muscle to get energy and that is what courses lactic asid,

so when my pigeons used to come home i had to clean the digestive tracts out with feeding barley which made them poo the lactic acid out and there droping were allways very loose,

hope this makes sence, i was never very good at getting my point accross in writing im a better talker,,lol

[pigeonjake]

god im on my soap box now, somebody kick it from under my,,lol\

antibiotics,, i used to give to the pigeond but only as a last resort and i would use baytril wide spectrum antibiotic, becouse antibiotics will kill both good and bad gut flora, i would at first sooner use natual yogart as that will help the gut flora to develop,

probiotics will very much improve the digestic tracks that is a fact and natual yogart will do the same thing,

ill have a chat to you about this when i bring your vegimite,,,lol

[pigeonjake]

IA ive just copied this very good reading i think, read about the storage and dry freezing,

sorry if you think im interfeering, i dont mean to mate and i know you know more about pigs then i do, i know about bloody pigeons, but livestock is livestock,,lol

By Damgaard & McLaren - The removal of antibiotic growth promoters from farm animal feeds has led to renewed interest in the use of live microbial cultures or direct fed microbials also called probiotics as a replacement.

SUMMARY

A new approach to propagate probiotic bacteria, on-farm, to induce viable strains in sufficient numbers for better establishment and colonisation in the intestine of the pig, has been developed. This new system has proven to be very efficient, especially in liquid feed systems for pigs, in Denmark.

INTRODUCTION

The intestinal micro flora of the pig is capable of resisting the establishment of certain intestinal pathogens (Hillman et al, 1994), and it has often been shown that certain lactic acid bacteria (LAB) in the intestinal micro flora possess an inhibitory activity towards coliform pathogens.

The addition of large numbers of lactic acid producing bacteria to the porcine micro flora, in vitro, can result in a consistent and reproducible decrease in the viability of these pathogens (Hillman et al, 1995).

It is also well known that the application of industrially produced probiotic bacteria, in vivo, generally generates very variable results. A probiotic, which is effective in one herd, may be ineffective in another. What works today may not work tomorrow. This has led to a degree of scepticism on behalf of sizeable sections of the farming and frontline veterinary communities as to the worth of bacterial probiotics in practical pig farming.

There are two broad ranges of possible reasons for this variation in practical farm results. They are not mutually exclusive and in fact may be interactive or co-dependant.

1. The chosen probiotic strain may have somehow lost its potency
   
2. The chosen strain may being used, in the field, at less than optimum numbers
   

POTENCY

Bacteria reproduce very quickly, and they adapt rapidly to the environment in which they find themselves. The number of bacterial generations, between the isolation/fermentation, and the method of cultivation in the bacteria factory, may reduce the potency of the original isolate.

One Lactobacillus spp. may be found to be effective at inhibiting coliform pathogens on first isolation in controlled tests but, may "lose" its efficacy over time.

In the micro flora of the intestine, the applied bacteria are in competition with other microbial species for nutrients and space, so that the production of compounds inhibitory to other species confers a survival advantage. This production of so-called bactericins, as distinct to the production lactic acid, may “vary” because of the industrial manufacturing process, and may even be deactivated.

The industrial propagation of the probiotic bacteria is a very carefully controlled, even cloistered, one. They live in a screened isolation, are excluded from encountering any competitive organism, and are grown in pure culture in a nutrient-rich medium, which is designed to encourage cell numbers and not bactericin production. The production of an inhibitor, active against an absent competitor represents a waste of resources for the bacterial cell.

The result may be that the members of the population which do not produce the inhibitor, may grow faster, and that every time the cultures are transferred to new media, the proportion of non-inhibitor-producing cells increases. In this way the isolates adapt to their new "environment" with no competing species, and the population loses its inhibitory activity against the pathogens. There is speculation that the probiotic cultures can lose their ability to produce the bactericins it uses to kill other competitive bacteria, like E coli, Salmonella and Clostridia.

VIABILITY and NUMBERS

During the industrial production process the factory manager has to choose when to harvest and dry the culture. Ideally the optimum is to have maximum number of cells in the active growing stage of their life cycle. If harvested too early, the total number of cells is less than optimum and represents both a reduced plant efficiency and a less than optimum use of physical resources.

If too late, the proportion of the cells in the biomass, past their optimum, rises rapidly. These cells are more fragile than the younger stronger ones and are more susceptible to further damage during the separation, drying, packaging and storage phases. Freeze drying can kill between 60 and 90% of the bacteria.Thereafter, storage can see a further drop in viability of up to 99% even if the cells are stored optimally.

Moreover, if these cells are then incorporated into feed pellets, they have to endure a further damaging process. The process of extruding feed produces great heat and shearing which kills a percentage of cells and thus further complicates the viability problem. Enrobing techniques are claimed to protect the cells but the numbers of viable cells in the preparations sold ready for extrusion are typically only 10% of that of the normal untreated bacteria equivalent.

Quoted counts for bacterial cells depend on the method used and can be confusing as well as misleading. There has been some recent research into the viability of dried bacterial preparations and the idea that a bacteria cell can be either simply living or dead has been challenged.

Lahtinen et al have followed the work of Kell and colleagues and developed the idea that bacteria cells can be categorised in four ways:

1. VIABLE (active and culturable)
   
2. DORMANT (inactive but culturable in an optimised growth media)
   
3. ACTIVE BUT NOT CULTURABLE
   
4. DEAD AND NOT CULTURABLE
   

If the simple cell numbers present is used, are the cells viable or not with respect their ability to implant in the animal’s intestine? If a CFU method is quoted it will usually be based on enumeration on a highly nutritious growth medium containing vitamins and trace elements. These may or not be present in the liquid pig feed or if present may be rendered unavailable to the probiotic bacteria because of the superior numbers and potency of competitive wild infective bacteria and yeasts. Thus CFU numbers made on a preparation some time before may be suspect with respect to the preparation’s ability to implant in the pig’s intestine.

Thus the efficacy of live bacterial cultures (probiotics) as feed additives will dependent on:

• the initial viability and vitality of the probiotic strain employed
  
• the state of the microbial population, as presented to the liquid feed; not just CFUs
  
• the time of application of this probiotic to the liquid feed
  
• the conditions prevalent in the intestine (intestinal physiology)
  
• the dietary materials reaching the intestine
  
• the current microbial population of the intestine.
  
• the colonisation of the applied population in the intestine
  
• their ability to produce bactericins
  

We believe it to be possible to improve the reproducibility of probiotic preparations by the provision of a diet suitable for the activity of the micro organism.

Probiotics should be and can be matched to the diet or visa versa.

In our opinion if we are to replace the use of antibiotics in animal feeds with probiotic bacteria, then it must be:

• Cost-effective – adding sufficient numbers of CFU’s for a given price
  
• Provide consistency in activity – using live and viable bacteria
  
• The feed diet must be consistent and suitable for the activity of the probiotic bacteria
  
• The right strains suitable for the host
  

A new approach to sub-propagate probiotic bacteria on-farm so as to induce viable strains in sufficient numbers for better establishment and colonisation of the liquid feed, and thus the intestine of the pig, has been developed in Denmark.

This new approach has proven very efficient especially in wet feed applications in Denmark The farmer purchases a special container in which is an optimised bacterial nutrient medium. He adds water and leaves it to process for up to 24 hours.

This preparation is then added to the liquid feeding system on a regular (daily) basis. The probiotic bacteria grown are now viable and vitalised, they dominate the liquid feed system, repress the wild yeast and infective bacteria and then colonise the intestine in numbers which are adequate for a positive effect on the animal. These wild yeasts and bacteria are the ones that remove the trace minerals and amino acids which are added as a feed supplement for the pig’s health!

In Denmark we have seen very positive effects specially on sows on liquid feed diets. The application of abundant viable probiotic bacteria have resulted in an increased appetite and a better feed uptake for the sow giving:

• Lower mortality in stressed sows prior to farrowing ( Clostridium dificile)
  
• Better and successful farrowing, resulting in fewer stillborn or enfeebled piglets
  
• More milk during the first weeks of lactation
  
• More uniform litter at weaning
  
• Greater number of weaned piglets
  

May 2006

[FarAwayBen]

IA,

Thanks for all the great info. Am definitely going to look into Betagrow.

What are your thoughts about breeding CP mothers without a contract and ordering artificial insemination? Is it easy to sell CPF pigs if you aren't selling them back to CP? Is there a significant price difference from the standard going rates?

I've read a few posts elsewhere warning against getting involved with CP.

I was a bit confused by your answer to my question about using the husk bran to cut my pig feed with. You mentioned cardboard, but my wife and I assumed you were joking! And the other option you mentioned, at 17 THB per kilo, you said was too expensive for pigs, so I"m confused about what the best thing to cut the feed with is. My wife sounds determined to keep using the 7THB per kilo husks that come straight from the machine when the rice is husked and sacked, ready for sale/eating. I've noticed our husk "powder" seems to have a lot of broken small rice particles mixed in with it. Any clarification on this point would be appreciated.

Thanks again! am enjoying reading along, even though a lot of this stuff seems much further along in my learning curve than where I am at the moment.

Ben

[pigeonjake]

^{the pig feed you buy from the wholesaler is ballanced pig feed so shouldnt be cut as you put it with anything,(in my opinion} yes you can put it in there but your pigs wont grow as quick, so if you do the maths, you will see this, ram as they call it is 6bht kilo here i give it to my chickens,}

^{if you give to the pigs they will take twice as long to grow out, ive seen it with a freind of ours she feeds ram, comes to our place and says every time your pigs are bigger then mine, ive treid to tell her, feed the proper stuff and they are ready in 4.5 to 5 months, not like hers 8 to 9 months, try it, rear some on good food and some on half ram and good food mixed and see the differance for yourself,}

^{over here its all about trial and error, thats were this forum helps people, people like IA have been there and done it,}

^{im no expert and dont claim to be one, but we are getting there with our pigs now, they do very well,}

^jake

[pigeonjake]

sorry for the small print,,lol its not a contract i promise

[revar]

Ben,

There are two ways of feeding your pigs: mixing the feed yourself or going with a commercial brand.

If you are very knowledgable it is probably cheaper to mix it yourself butI for instance don't have the knowledge. But others on this forum do.

If you go for a commercial brand like Betagro, Balance, Sunfeed, Selectfeed or others follow their advice and use the feed strategy specific to that brand.

I use and sell Betagro (the normal green one not Balance).

If your weaned piglet start eating Betagro at 15kg kg and eat 0.66 bag of 301, 0.33 bag of 301-L, , 3 bags of 301B, 2 of 302 and one of 303 they should be at around105 kg after 4.5months.

But sime of my customers are used to other brands which require one bag of everynumber and ending with several bags of the highest numbered (and cheapest type). People refer to the bags as number 1 feed, number 2, etc. But number 2 from Betagro (302) for instance is aimed at 60+ kg pigs while number 2 from sunfeed is for 25-50kg pigs. So when starting with a new brand sometimes people use the wrong types with as a result slow growing pigs or even sickness.

One of the villagers here used wathever is cheapest; cp food which 'fell of the back of a truck', mixes her own feed or gives them left over food and I also caught her feed Betagro 304 (meanth for pigs over100 kg) to her 30kg pigs. I became involved because I act as the vilages unofficial vet and after 8months her pigs were still only 50kg and often very sick. Trying to educate her but only with limited success so far.

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[IsaanAussie]

WOW, you guys have been busy this morning. First the tome on probiotics. Cant dispute what they claim but I see it cast in the light of the research funding source, guess who? A probiotic brewing company. No wonder it is so hard for anyone to get it to work. Dont even try it, just buy our freeze dried wonder dust, Poppycock!

I brew the stuff on site and put a litre in each 1,000 litre drinking water tank. The system self propetuates all I do is input more feed materials for the culture when the tanks are 50% used. They eat pig feed and brown sugar, they also eat rice wash water. Those who use EM will known that you can brew your own or your can buy the dormant culture for 50 baht a litre and multiple it out. Mine costs me 3 baht a litre.

The report doesnt not say anything about odour control or improved FCR's. It doesnt mention that the LAB accumulates in the pigs colon and improves digestion. It does mention the difficulties in freeze drying the stuff and storing it etc.. Well I dont have that problem as it used immediately in the water.

The implication is it must be used in a wet feeding system. Cant argue as that would work, but I am not changing feeding systems. I need the stuff to be viable in pelleted feed form.

So the real issues aren't how hard it is to brew the stuff because it isnt. You need to control forming temperatures so the microbes aren't cooked. You need to control moisture content so the feed doesnt mould and the microbes spore and go dormant. You need to control storage temperature of the feed so the microbes survive for a reasonable amount of time and provide some form of innoculant to prolong that period.

In a preparing the feed there is an opportunity to improve the digestibility of the raw materials by fermenting them in guess what? The probiotic! By fertilising my pond with effluent from the septic tanks on the sty I do two things, feed fish with natural foods that consume the nutrients and I boast the protein level in aquatic plants like duckweed to a point it is richer than soybean meal. I can harvest half my pond a day of duckweed and use it as an alternative feed source, if I ferment it as well more of the crude protein is useable. If I raise BSF larvae and cook that I can replace fish meal.

All the while the bacteria is out competing the nasty stuff inside the pig and I dont need antibiotics regularly, the growth hormones I dont need at all because the pig gets more out of its feed and as the nitrogen components are being used up, less smell.

I have read many of articles like this that to me present a commercial interest. I have also read research materials that have done much to solve the real issues. In the day when life was more leisurely, farmers used to grow and cook vegetables and grains to feed their pigs. The pigs were more resilient and performed slower but there was a profit to be gained and natural ethically raised pork available.

But get this, one thing that was used often to feed pigs was fermented cabbage leaves, the spoilt outer leaves and trim. The pigs did well because guess what occurs naturally ib cabbage? LAB...

Do I know it all, hell no heaps to learn. But I do know this, that if your can integrate your farming activities and waste nothing you can save external expenses and even make money by onselling the byproducts.

Pig and fish feed here I come!

Edited June 29, 2012 by IsaanAussie

[IsaanAussie]

I use all 7 grades of Balance feeds. and achieve FCR numbers of 2.4 to 2.5. thats 250 kgs of feed. If you can do it with less than half that amount, tell me more!

Edit apologies just re read your post, I had it wrong the 105 is the pig not the feed. FCR of roughly 2,1 that your numbers suggest is good. The timing I assume is sfter weaning so about the same. So I carry another bag of feed but I wonder if in total I save any money? I suspect I do...

Edited June 29, 2012 by IsaanAussie

[IsaanAussie]

Whats wrong with rice bran? Nothing it has protein and energy components, just not as much as other things. Bottom line to succeed on a high bran diet the pig has to eat much more. The price per kg then becomes only one variable in the cost per feed.

Other issues are the bran is a laxative, the pig excretes some 80% of what it eats so you end up with more smelly, runny manure that has less netrient value.

Nothing at all wrong with rice bran...Well actually it contains a lot of phosphorus which strips calcium. Not a real good thing for the bone structure of a sow or any pig.

Edited June 29, 2012 by IsaanAussie

[IsaanAussie]

And before I get back to work a last one for Jake. Lactic acid bacteria not lactic acid and yes it is used to culture yoghurt. Guess the smell I have in my pigsty? People comment on it regularly... yoghurt.

It all seems to be heading in a circle doesnt it.