Abduction Of My Daughter, By My Thai Wife

[britinthai]

Scott

I fully understand, call the lawyer Lek he has very good contacts and for sure will get you results – it’s only a phone call afterall. I don't believe the SC will fast track anything (Unless your name is Thaksin Shinawatra); indeed I have three letters from the SC president all saying the case will be fast tracked - but it still took over four years. My apologies in saying you are weak, but come on this is your child and from the picture, she is old enough to be stating which parent she wants to live with; this comes under the convention of children’s rights, which Thailand has signed up too. Apply to have her put in an international school; this is again in the best interest of the child. I would be submitting application after application to the juvenile court, and of course there is nothing to stop you making emergency applications - you can also apply direct to the SC to have the child put into a different school; this will take a few months but they will respond. When you go to the SC do you demand in seeing the team from up-stairs, as only talking to the paper pushers down stairs will have no effect whatsoever; I have even asked and got to see one of the SC judges and your case is for sure a case that they should respond to you can even quote section 40 of the Thai constitution, it quotes a quick and easy justice system, you can ask why is it taking so long and of course quote this is in the best interest of the child.

.

[scott1999]

Scott

I fully understand, call the lawyer Lek he has very good contacts and for sure will get you results – it’s only a phone call afterall. will do tonight, thanks,

I don't believe the SC will fast track anything (Unless your name is Thaksin Shinawatra); indeed I have three letters from the SC president all saying the case will be fast tracked - but it still took over four years.

can i ask you a question? you say four years? is that for years from the start at juvenile, or is it four years from when the appeal went to the SC?

My apologies in saying you are weak, but come on this is your child and from the picture, she is old enough to be stating which parent she wants to live with; this comes under the convention of children’s rights, which Thailand has signed up too.

i can say for sure Dnee will say her mum, the thing is Mummy doesn't and cannot live in Thailand, she just likes to run the show from a far. So that leaves only the father in this country, the court has to side with me by default, even if mommy comes back to thailand and tells the court she will stay here and take care or my daughter now, the court knows she cannot earn money to take care of Dnee , and they would never believe her now anyway.

Apply to have her put in an international school; this is again in the best interest of the child.

i do have 100% of education, and the juvenile court agrees with me about the international school of my choice only. but again i cannot enforce till SC acts

I would be submitting application after application to the juvenile court, and of course there is nothing to stop you making emergency applications

This i was trying to do on friday, but i was told the mothers side just do not have to come to the juvenile court as the appeal to the SC is still not over,

- you can also apply direct to the SC to have the child put into a different school; this will take a few months but they will respond.

now this sounds interesting , the SC only told me to go to juvenile, i will apply direct to the SC, thank you

When you go to the SC do you demand in seeing the team from up-stairs,

yes we do.

as only talking to the paper pushers down stairs will have no effect whatsoever; I have even asked and got to see one of the SC judges and your case is for sure a case that they should respond to you can even quote section 40 of the Thai constitution, it quotes a quick and easy justice system, you can ask why is it taking so long and of course quote this is in the best interest of the child.

​thanks for your sharing your experience

[britinthai]

One year for mediation, one year for JC, three years for AC, and 4 years for the SC. What is the fix your daughter has with the mum; I would say it is the brainwashing from the Thai side - I had this with my son. However kids are not stupid and your daughter is not sure she is safe, once she knows she has the support from you and you will protect her and that she has a secure home her mind will change. My son was so weak and took everything his mum said as fact, as he kenw even if I took him his mum would demand he went back, and of course she gave him a hard time over it. Now he is 12 and for sure he is having no fuss from his mum; I always told her I will not have to take him she will lose him on her own - this has happened.

Edited March 11, 2013 by britinthai

[scott1999]

One year for mediation, one year for JC, three years for AC, and 4 years for the SC.

dnee kidnapped 12th september 2010 , first court hearing at juvenile march 2011 so just under 1 year in juvenile finished 24th jan 2012 mother appealed , thrown out april 27th 2012 but we had to wait till june for hearing at the juvenile court , the mother was a no show, but her lawyer who told the appeals judge that he did not know where the mother was, still was able to put in an appeal to the supreme court even though it said in the verdict of the appeals court , that the mothers side cannot appeal to the SC , so that is two years in all for the courts. and from july 2012 for the SC

i promise i am not making this up, but it sure looks like it to me, and i am the one living it

What is the fix your daughter has with the mum; I would say it is the brainwashing from the Thai side - I had this with my son. However kids are not stupid and your daughter is not sure she is safe, once she knows she has the support from you and you will protect her and that she has a secure home her mind will change.

one difference to your story , Dnees mother has always used the half-sister to glorify the mother while the mother is away in England. But apart from that , our stories are similar, just as your son had to suck it up ie the alienating , so has my daughter, but can feel my daughter is so close now, it must be the age , around 12 years old, i just read about hugh jackman , his mother ran away when he was 8 or 9 , only when he got to 12 years old did he work it out she was not coming back.

My son was so weak and took everything his mum said as fact, as he kenw even if I took him his mum would demand he went back, and of course she gave him a hard time over it. Now he is 12 and for sure he is having no fuss from his mum; I always told her I will not have to take him she will lose him on her own - this has happened.

this is what will happen to my daughter, i must not lose her trust or her love.

thanks for some great insight .

Edited March 11, 2013 by scott1999

[Annonymous]

where are you at? still away from your daughter?

[scott1999]

Hi sorry missed your post, thanks for your comment.

No i have not seen or been able to contact my daughter. Yes i am worried, but i am so close now, the Principal of my daughters is keeping me updated.

As for any news i will update as it happens,

thanks again.

[scott1999]

Hi all

Well what can I say?

Dnee is back at her
school as of the start of the new term 20^th of May. The Principal rang me to tell me Dnee
was back and I spoke to her on the 30^th by phone. Dnee of course was
very off to me because of the alienation from the mother’s side. The principal was
also was supporting the mother’s side too, by saying it was up to Dnee if she wanted
to speak to me or not. I informed the principal it is not up to Dnee if she
wants to speak to me or not, but it is up to me the only guardian in the
country. I said I well go to see my daughter on the 31^st of May. My daughter
was not sent to school on the said day.

The 7^th of June I went to Dnee’s school with the agenda
of, if the school stops me seeing my daughter I will just go to the police to
make a report. That as the only guardian in Thailand of my daughter I am being denied
access to her by the school.

Well when I got to the school I handed over the letter stating
Dnee is not allowed to get on the school bus. The office staff asked me who
wrote the letter. I said “my lawyer did, would you like to talk to him on the
phone?” I got no reply to my question. Then they asked me do I want to speak to
the principal? I said “up to her as if I do not see my daughter my lawyer has
told me just to go to the police to make a report.”

Within ten minutes my daughter was sitting in the principal office
with four women staff around her. Dnee looked very tense and worried. I said
don’t worry Dnee all this will be over very soon now. I gave her some small
gifts from us all. She seemed a little happier. I told her we all loved her and
we want the best for her. I said “this Friday you can get on the bus. But I will
come and see you next week on Thursday and Friday and I will take you for the
weekend on holiday.” I then let Dnee go back to her lessons.

So next week I will go and see my daughter on the Thursday and
then on Friday I will take her for a holiday. If I am stopped from taking her
on the Friday I will make a police report. If Dnee is not at school on Friday I
will go to the school on the Monday.

The mother’s side is out of money and out of ideas. With good
luck the Supreme Court will order while Dnee is in this school term. Then all
bets are off and anyone who is alienating Dnee from us can be arrested for “with
holding a child” “kidnapping” and so on till they understand that with holding my
daughter is not going to raise any more
money for them.

Any one reading this please understand till I have the
Supreme Court verdict I cannot enforce the order dated the 24^th of
Jan 2012. Giving me 100% physical custody of my daughter. So the police will
not act strongly till then.

Of course many thanks to all of you for your support in my
hours of need. Special thanks to Micheal for your daily support. All I can say is till it happens to you, you
may have a view and an idea how you would act and what you would do. But when
it does happen to you, it changes you forever. You sink or swim. With all your support
I’m still swimming, sometimes I feel like I am going under. Sometimes I feel
like I am treading water. And sometime I feel like I am getting somewhere.

I will post next week

Edited June 8, 2013 by scott1999

[benalibina]

What a life some of us have to live ! SAD SAD.

Good luck and hope all your endavours pay off for your and your daughter's sake.

[scott1999]

What a life some of us have to live ! SAD SAD.

Good luck and hope all your endavours pay off for your and your daughter's sake.

Thank you for your kind words MR "P."

R.E. Our chat, anything we can do to help just ask. I have spoken to Micheal and he would be happy to advise, just send an Email.

[benalibina]

What a life some of us have to live ! SAD SAD.Good luck and hope all your endavours pay off for your and your daughter's sake.

Thank you for your kind words MR "P." R.E. Our chat, anything we can do to help just ask. I have spoken to Micheal and he would be happy to advise, just send an Email.

Thanks, will sent you mail soon. Gotta sit for it to write it down properly.

[scott1999]

Update

I have been trying very hard to get to see my Daughter. As of the time of me writing this post i cannot remember every date and event that has happened over these couple of weeks, so i will just try my best to remember.

Anyway on the 19th of June i went to my Daughters school with a letter that stated Dnee was not allowed to get on the Bus again. The school did no more then to take Dnee to the police station and told me to go there. When I got to the police station my daughter was there with one of her half-sisters and the half-sister's father. Who is now claiming to be my Daughter's step-father.

I would not see my daughter at the police station while the half-sister and her father were standing next to my daughter. As i knew they have coached her to show fear of me, throwing her hands up at her face if i even walk in the same room as her.

So i asked the policeman to help get my daughter away from them. He refused so after about to hours of the Mexican stand off, the police let my daughter go with the half-sister. I was looked on by the police as the evil father, who my daughter was frightened of.

On the 27th of this month i went to the same police station to see the same policeman. My friend Micheal had rung him a couple of days earlier to tell the policeman everything was not as it seemed on the 19th of last week. I.E. my daughter being frightened of me. So when i got there i showed him lots of photos of me and Dnee and Dnee showing no fear. I told the policeman "Dnee only shows fear of me when she is with any of the mother's family." The policeman did not like what he saw.

He stated that the court order from the Juvenile was the law, even if the mother is appealing the order, it does not matter it is still the law right now. He gave me a police letter stating this fact and has told me "go get your daughter."

on the 28th of this month a sent a copy of the letter to the principal of Dnee's school and rang her. SHE WAS VERY ANGRY TO ME AFTER I THANKED HER FOR TAKING MY DAUGHTER TO THE POLICE STATION THE WEEK BEFORE. After that outburst she told me she cannot control this anymore and hung up the phone.

So now i have more support from the police in this matter. I hope this will all be over soon.

The letter from the police. A ruff translation: I Paul --------- of England am the father of my daughter Dnee. The mother who is living in England is trying to stop the father seeing his daughter. The mother does not have the power to do this. By the proof of the Juvenile Court order. This letter states that only the father has the power to choose for his daughter.

Edited June 29, 2013 by scott1999

[scott1999]

These are the photos that helped me at the police station

Doc8.docx

Doc7.docx

[jpinx]

I admire your tenacity and I am apalled with the machinations of the bad thai family. Not all thai families are this bad, and such behaviour is not confined to Thailand, but I salute your bravery in slogging it out with them and documenting it all here. I wish you and your daughter a happy outcome.

[scott1999]

I admire your tenacity and I am apalled with the machinations of the bad thai family. Not all thai families are this bad, and such behaviour is not confined to Thailand, but I salute your bravery in slogging it out with them and documenting it all here. I wish you and your daughter a happy outcome.

Thank you Sir.

One day my daughter can read this for herself. of course i am to blame too, for what has happened to my daughter i know this and it eats at me. i am and never will be perfect. But people like you help me so much for just taking the time to give me your view. Of course Micheal from Thai visa still helps me on a daily basis .

Thanks for taking the time.

[Mario2008]

Nice to see you get support from the police. Must have lighted your day!

[scott1999]

Nice to see you get support from the police. Must have lighted your day!

yes Mario, it was a shock, but lies are not permanent. its the knee jerk reaction of a frightened child, after that, the mother's family have nothing.

[benalibina]

I admire your tenacity and I am apalled with the machinations of the bad thai family. Not all thai families are this bad, and such behaviour is not confined to Thailand, but I salute your bravery in slogging it out with them and documenting it all here. I wish you and your daughter a happy outcome.

Thank you Sir. One day my daughter can read this for herself. of course i am to blame too, for what has happened to my daughter i know this and it eats at me. i am and never will be perfect. But people like you help me so much for just taking the time to give me your view. Of course Micheal from Thai visa still helps me on a daily basis .Thanks for taking the time.

Congrats Paul, lies are as good as the perceiver wants to hear it. The reality is many times not the same as the truth. Truth is the only thing that matters. We all make mistakes in life because of...... well, various reasons. Only the evil 1s make them intentionally. Pity that you and your daughter have to go through this ordeal. The righteousness and truly caring will be the winners at the end in this sad game. Chock dee Paul.

[CWMcMurray]

My understanding of shared custody, is that it means both parents have custody...

So daughter can stay with either the father or the mother...

So what is stopping the OP from just taking his daughter home?

The sister in law has no standing, so mother would have to fly back and sue him for primary custody if he took the daughter , correct?

Why does he have to continue to wait?

I would just take the daughter home and advise the principle and the sister in law that they can sue me for custody if they want, but until I see a court order giving them custody , my daughter is staying with me.

I understand the OP is trying to do the "right thing" , but as he and the mother have shared custody not sure I understand why he thinks he needs to have 100% sole custody before daughter can live with him?

The mother only has 50% custody, bit does not seem to have any problem with believing that this means she can appoint her sister a the guardian while she is out of the country?

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

[Mario2008]

There is an agreement regarding the custody, which is not lived up to by the mother. Now the courts have to change the agreement and he practically now has sole custody. Only the higest court has to make its final ruling.

Shared custody often means that there is an agreement or court decision on where the child stays and how many days. In that case is doesn't mean just take the kid.

[CWMcMurray]

Well noted, didn't realize the current agreement stipulated that his daughter needs to live at a certain place.

I wonder how his ex-wife's relatives are then doing what they are doing?

Or are they just disregarding the terms of the previous court order as well?

Although if the precious court order says she has to stay with her mother and he mother is overseas, couldn't he take his daughter to live with him and notify the police and courts that his daughter is with him only because his wife left the country and he is fully willing to turn her back over to her miter as soon as the mother presents herself.

I does the previous court order name a specific house she has to live in or give the mother the power to name any third party as the guardian?

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

[scott1999]

Hi

CWMcMurray

Thanks for your comments

So what is stopping the OP from just taking his daughter home? My daughter shows fear of me, but of course it is only when she is with them.

Or are they just disregarding the terms of the previous court order as well? yes to every section of the agreement.

I understand the OP is trying to do the "right thing" , but as he and the mother have shared custody not sure I understand why he thinks he needs to have 100% sole custody before daughter can live with him? The police will not act strongly IE take my daughter from them. while my daughter is showing fear of me.

The policeman was very kind after he saw the photos of me at the school, and he is trying his best for me.

This is a horrible thing for anyone to read let alone to live it. But i must keep on trying.

[jpinx]

Hi

CWMcMurray

Thanks for your comments

So what is stopping the OP from just taking his daughter home? My daughter shows fear of me, but of course it is only when she is with them.

Or are they just disregarding the terms of the previous court order as well? yes to every section of the agreement.

I understand the OP is trying to do the "right thing" , but as he and the mother have shared custody not sure I understand why he thinks he needs to have 100% sole custody before daughter can live with him? The police will not act strongly IE take my daughter from them. while my daughter is showing fear of me.

The policeman was very kind after he saw the photos of me at the school, and he is trying his best for me.

This is a horrible thing for anyone to read let alone to live it. But i must keep on trying.

Forgive my ignorance of what's actually available here, but if your wife is in breach of a court order and the police are on your side -- can some form of official child services not retrieve the child and allow you to interact with her when she is away from her mother's family? This might open a way for you to enforce your legal position - assuming the child actually says "I want to be with Daddy".

[scott1999]

Hi

CWMcMurray

Thanks for your comments

So what is stopping the OP from just taking his daughter home? My daughter shows fear of me, but of course it is only when she is with them.

Or are they just disregarding the terms of the previous court order as well? yes to every section of the agreement.

I understand the OP is trying to do the "right thing" , but as he and the mother have shared custody not sure I understand why he thinks he needs to have 100% sole custody before daughter can live with him? The police will not act strongly IE take my daughter from them. while my daughter is showing fear of me.

The policeman was very kind after he saw the photos of me at the school, and he is trying his best for me.

This is a horrible thing for anyone to read let alone to live it. But i must keep on trying.

Forgive my ignorance of what's actually available here, but if your wife is in breach of a court order and the police are on your side -- can some form of official child services not retrieve the child and allow you to interact with her when she is away from her mother's family? This might open a way for you to enforce your legal position - assuming the child actually says "I want to be with Daddy".

thanks for your comment, but there is no child services in Thailand that i am aware of. So while they can trick my daughter into showing fear of me, then they have a very good chance of carrying this situation on.

[jpinx]

There is something...

http://www.unicef.org/about/annualreport/files/Thailand_COAR_2010.pdf

.... and I remember child protection services being mentioned by the police in Pattaya concerning an underage hooker on Beach Road last year. It was reported extensively here in TV. I have seen other mentions of a child service in respect of other cases, hence my radar blinked...

Also you would do well to read these threads and maybe learn some of the lessons both for your current situation and for the future - depending on how things work out. Fingers crossed

Edit - I forgot the other links

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/628829-thai-mother-want-child-back/?hl=%2Bchild+%2Bservices#entry6244165

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/381917-how-to-gain-parental-rights-as-a-father/#entry4448380

Edited July 3, 2013 by jpinx

[ThaiLawOnline]

I didn't read the topic from the beginning but we are often involved in similar matters.

1) You must look at WHO has custody under Thai Law. Foreign Law doesn't apply here. But if you have a judgment from a foreign country giving you full and sole custody, because Thailand signed the Hague Convention on Child Abduction, you can go to Court and seek an order to get back the child.

2) Now, if you don't have full and sole custody in your home country, but you have it under Thai Law, the police MOSTLY won't get involved in family matters and will tell you to go to Court. We currently have an exact case like that. The foreign father make a divorce agreement. He has full and sole custody. They agreed that after 1 year of divorce the mother will give the child to the father. Now, she changed her mind. The police doesn't want to get involved. We have to go to Court to enforce the divorce agreement and the mother could only contest, we believe, based on 1522 of the Civil Code showing there is a change of situation and it is the best interest of the child to modify the divorce agreement. We think she has no chance.

3) In another very strange case, we might represent the government of UK (we did in the past) where the child is under the protection of some UK agencies but abducted in Thailand by a parent just before a judgement, for instance. Again, even with UK judgment, cooperation of the British Embassy, it is a delicate matter and often, police doesn't want to get involved, documents must be translated, legalized and you must always show that it is the best interest of the child to be returned to a parent or get full custody of a parent.

We did few cases were we got full and sole custody for 1 parent.

But each case is different and you must have a clear case because if judges believe the child(ren) should be with both parents, they won't grant full and sole custody.

BTW: Here, I use the term 'custody' as in Common Law. But Thailand is a Civil Law country. We should say "Parental powers" or "Parental authority". That is the power or the authority to decide about education, religion, where the child lives, etc. Custody is often confusing because someone can have "parentel authority" (like the mother, the father) but the child is under the "physical custody" of the grandmother. However, the grandmother, unless there is a judgement or a documents from the amphur, has NO LEGAL AUTHORITY to keep the child.

In divorce agreements, we often give "parental powers" to one party and the other party must pay "support" for the child, has visitations rights and might others. But all these must be clearly define. I saw parents deciding to abuse of agreements, because the agreement doesn't specify where the child can be taken, for how long, or they always find excuses like the child is sick to try to avoid visitation rights.

The 'parent alienation syndrome' is also often seen in Thailand. Seek it on Internet, you will understand. It is a concept widely used in foreign countries but very rarely in Thailand.

I will always remember the face of one of our clients, when we got full and sole custody of his 3 children. He cried so much. He was crying of joy. There are days like that when you are happy to do the work we do. But divorces and custody and the nastiest cases we normally have. It's never enough for one party. And when both of them want full custody, it gets ugly in Court. Very often a party 'exagerate', 'lies' or even fabricate some proof. (false documents and others).

Good luck.

[scott1999]

Edited July 8, 2013 by scott1999

[Boo]

what happened today? Your post isn't clear. Has it been sorted?

[scott1999]

what happened today? Your post isn't clear. Has it been sorted?

Wow! What a day.

I pick up my friend Micheal and off we went to Dnee’s school on the other side of Bangkok. The school did no more than drive my Daughter to the police station. So off we went to the station. The two school teachers were looking not to happy. Dnee’s half-sister were not there yet, so I had a wonderful hour with my daughter in the police station just telling her I will always love her and asking what she likes, She told me Justin Bieber . So I promised some pillows and things with Justin’s face on it for her.

Anyway the half-sisters turned up and went a bit mad. Shouting and saying bad things about me. Telling my daughter to stay away from me. But with the help of Micheal , I was able to not get angry. They tried so hard to stop me saying I will do this every week to see my daughter. So I know this is the right course of action. Even Dnee said Daddy I do not like coming to the police station. I said “when you come and stay for a night with daddy I will stop this action. Till then as you father it’s my job to make sure you are ok, and of course I want to see you.”

I felt calm even when they took her, as I have said before till the Supreme Court orders the police will and do say it’s up to the child, even if she is being abused to say the things she does.

So same again next week me thinks.

Thanks every one for your comments and help in this matter.

Edited July 8, 2013 by scott1999

[scott1999]

Sorry every one about the standard of the writing. My only excuse is how stressful the day had been, and how tired I was when writing the post. But i just wanted to get it down on T V about how it all went before I went to bed.

I must say I am so proud of my little girl.

I will post again about yesterday when it has washed over me how it went.

[jpinx]

Scot - I mentioned this a while back .-- child protection services - and today I noticed this thread started, which you might want to follow and see if they can unearth this elusive body.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/652540-women-and-children-protection-unit/