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True Ultra Hi-Speed Internet


petedk

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It's a bit hard to know whether someone here, on a True 50 pr 100 Mbps plan, would experience any difference using the java vs flash testing methods...

DSL Reports above talks about using java for higher speed connections like 100 Mbps ones... But surely they're talking about domestic users where the plan speed someone has is likely to bear some correlation to their actual network download speeds.

Here in Thailand, on the other hand, our plans speeds with True Online's cable and DSL services seem to bear little or no correlation with our actual international download speeds. We seem to get 1-4 Mbps or so at best internationally to the U.S. for example, pretty much regardless of the plan used.

On the other hand, it never hurts to experiment. If I had a 100 Mbps plan here, I'd try both the java and flash speed tests at DSLReports several times each one after the other, and see if there were any appreciable differences.

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You've heard of governors on engines which limit speed; well, I think Thai ISPs do the same thing on their international connections/bandwidth. So, whether you have a 10Mb or 100Mb connection your international speed will be limited to around 2-6Mb to the U.S./Europe and something a little higher to nearby locations such as Singapore....I think a person can get 15-20Mb to Singapore on a good day based on my testing due to a more direct connection. And I'm talking a valid/actual speedtest result versus bogus faster-than-the-speed-of-light ping times/download speeds like the server is across the soi from you.

Since some type of international bandwidth limit seems to exist, and let's say it's around 5Mb, I don't know why anyone would want a speed plan faster than 20Mb unless there are special services/sites within Thailand that can feed them speeds of over 20Mb. Heck, many/most servers limit the connection speed of the thousands of users logging onto them in order to provide descent speed/output to many users versus a couple of high speed users hogging all the server's bandwidth. Really high speed is a fine thing if there are services/servers out there that can feed you data at the speed of your plan.

For me, I'm happy with my 20Mb plan as it can accept the highest international speeds available in the region which I think to out around 15-20Mb from Singapore, it can definitely handle the ballpark 5Mb speed to the U.S./Europe, and 20Mb speed is more than enough for in-Thailand services. Heck, a 10Mb plan would probably fit the bill also....but comes with a lower month bill than a 20Mb plan...a person would only miss out on some regional speed like to Singapore where a lot of sites/services seem to host their content....and if just doing general browsing or video streaming I doubt a person would see the difference between a 10Mb or 20Mb plan....but for file/torrent downloading a 20Mb should be better/faster.

Just my opinion...and you know what they say about opinions. :lol:

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I had some free time this past Sunday morning. And being inspired by the post here from our True 100 Mbps subscriber, I decided to run another series of pretty detailed speed tests that produced some interesting results....particularly in several areas...

1. There definitely is something amiss in terms of the U.S.A to Thailand speed measurements as reflected by SpeedTest.net, even when using True's proxy, and DSLReports.com. In the various tests I ran, SpeedTest.net consistently reported basically double the download speeds of those reported by DSLReports, with all other parameters remaining the same.

2. For my 7 Mbps True DSL compared to my 10 Mbps True Cable internet, they basically showed very similar download speeds around 2 Mbps to the U.S., although the cable service had faster upload speeds that were pretty consistent with the plan's rated upload speeds: The DSL service had uploads right around 600 Kbps, above its 512 Kbps plan speed, while the cable service had uploads in the 800-900 Kbps range, just below plan's 1 Mbps upload standard.

3. In terms of Flash-based vs. Java-based speed tests used at DSLReports.com, I'm seeing basically very similar results from both methods whenever I compare them with any parameters for U.S.A. to Thailand connections using True's 10 Mbps cable service and True's 7 Mbps DSL service. Maybe there is a difference when involving higher speed plans, but at these speeds, there's no meaningful difference between the results produced by the two different types of tests.

On Sunday morning between 11 am and noon, I ran a series of comparative speed tests as follows using a variety of different configurations, and repeated each test 3 times with identical parameters to make sure the results I was getting weren't aberrations. Here's what I got:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SpeedTest.net vs. DSLReports.com using True 7 Mbps DSL

SpeedTest.net speed test with True proxy -- speed test to Los Angeles -- True 7 Mbps DSL connection via N wifi router

4.61 Mbps 0.48 Mbps 265ms

4.26 0.47 263ms

4.31 0.49 256ms

DSLReports speed test with True proxy -- Java speed test to Los Angeles -- same True 7 Mbps DSL connection via N wifi router

2057 Kbps 547 Kbps

2057 547

1891 538

DSLReports speed test with True proxy -- Flash speed test to Los Angeles -- same True 7 Mbps DSL connection via N wifi router

1941 640 360ms

2223 548 270ms

2115 547 272ms

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SpeedTest.net vs. DSLReports.com using True 10 Mbps Cable

SpeedTest.net speed test with True proxy -- speed test to Los Angeles -- True 10 Mbps Cable connection via G wifi router

4.21 1.03 236ms

4.46 1.12 238ms

4.27 1.09 240ms

DSLReports speed test with True proxy -- Java speed test to Los Angeles -- same True 10 Mbps Cable connection via G wifi router

1869 1338

2025 1037

2050 1033

DSLReports speed test with True proxy -- Flash speed test to Los Angeles -- same True 10 Mbps Cable connection via G wifi router

2186 1366 310 ms

2085 756 290ms

1869 1388 295ms

*Note: I had to use the True proxy for the DSLReports tests, because that was the only way to keep a direct comparison with SpeedTest.net, where the international speed test results are meaningless unless you use the True proxy.

But here are the comparable DSLReports Flash-based speed test results using NO proxy... Thailand to Los Angeles

True 7 Mbps DSL via N router

2250 678 432ms

1669 598 301ms

2311 599 302ms

True 10 Mbps Cable via G router

2054 965 350ms

2022 884 273ms

1914 896 280ms

I re-ran this comparison a second time, and basically got identical results... Curiously, the slower DSL plan was achieving slightly better download speeds, but the cable plan was getting faster upload speeds, consistent with the speed ratings of the two plans.

Edited by TallGuyJohninBKK
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I have recently started following this thread and have read through all 26 pages. True has recently wired up my neighborhood in Lamphun for cable broadband and put up advertising for their Ultra High Speed internet all over the place, so I am seriously considering it.

I have been marginally satisfied with the CAT dsl 4M/1M service I've had for the last couple of years. It's fine in the mornings and I can usually get 2 to 3M download speeds internationally, but it really starts to slow down in the afternoons and evenings when I can get maybe 200 to 300K. The good thing is that it has been very constant and reliable, and actual downtimes when I have no connection at all is very rare. I'm paying 690 baht a month, just about the same as the 10M/1M True cable service which I would be interested in. The problem, of course, would be jumping from a known into the unknown.

I'm also concerned with the free cable modem that would be supplied by True. I use Magic Jack to make calls to the US, and for some unknown reason the free Zyxel dsl modem/router supplied by CAT gives me terrible call quality. I had bought my own D-Link dsl modem/router and have no problems making Magic Jack calls with that one. If one of you guys could give me some information on the free cable modem that would be supplied by True, it would be most appreciated.

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I have recently started following this thread and have read through all 26 pages. True has recently wired up my neighborhood in Lamphun for cable broadband and put up advertising for their Ultra High Speed internet all over the place, so I am seriously considering it.

I have been marginally satisfied with the CAT dsl 4M/1M service I've had for the last couple of years. It's fine in the mornings and I can usually get 2 to 3M download speeds internationally, but it really starts to slow down in the afternoons and evenings when I can get maybe 200 to 300K. The good thing is that it has been very constant and reliable, and actual downtimes when I have no connection at all is very rare. I'm paying 690 baht a month, just about the same as the 10M/1M True cable service which I would be interested in. The problem, of course, would be jumping from a known into the unknown.

I'm also concerned with the free cable modem that would be supplied by True. I use Magic Jack to make calls to the US, and for some unknown reason the free Zyxel dsl modem/router supplied by CAT gives me terrible call quality. I had bought my own D-Link dsl modem/router and have no problems making Magic Jack calls with that one. If one of you guys could give me some information on the free cable modem that would be supplied by True, it would be most appreciated.

Higgy, based on what you say above, it sounds like you should do better, and be fine, with True's 10 Mbps cable plan... the same plan I have in BKK.

Re your question, True provides different models of routers with different speeds of its cable service.

It also depends on whether the plan you're signing up for is just the cable modem only or also with a wifi router.

I already had my own wifi router. So when I signed up for True's 10 Mbps cable service, they were handing out Motorola Surfboard (I wanna say) 5101s model... just single coax input on the back along with an Ethernet output. No USB jack. Terry's post above addresses the version if you're having True provide the wifi router as well.

The biggest issue about True's cable internet service, in my view, is the potential for local network congestion... ie... if everyone in your neighborhood is also using the same service, sharing your cable line, and slowing down its performance. But given your location, I'd suspect that would be less of a potential issue than here in BKK.

As for MagicJack, I've used that device as my primary phone with several varieties of True service, both DSL and cable internet... And I've never had any problems with voice quality. The main issue I've found I need to be careful about with MagicJack calls is not having any downloading or uploading activity going on in the background at the same time.

For example, I have some cloud backup services installed on my PC that regularly and routinely backup my PC contents to cloud storage. If those happen to be running while I'm trying to make a call, the call quality degrades significantly. So now, anytime I'm using MJ, I'm careful just to put those background services to "sleep" temporarily while I'm on the phone.

As for speeds, as you can see from the above speed test results I posted, you ought to be able to get at least 500-600 Kbps downloads even in the busiest times, and 2 Mbps or better in non-peak times... And that's based on BKK performance. So out in the sticks, you might do even better.... or not... It's always a bit of a crap shoot... But more than likely, almost certain to be better than your CAT.

The one other good piece of advice I'd give you or anyone considering the same choice would be to keep your DSL service... don't cancel it...until you've had the True cable installed and working for a couple months.

That way, if your location has any particular problems or you're not getting the performance you expect for whatever reason, you can just ditch the True and keep your CAT DSL...

BTW, do be aware of any contract length terms that may be involved with the True sign-up... Sometimes for their free installation packages, they seem to have things like 1 year service commitment required. If possible, you want to make sure you have the ability to exit if the service upon setup isn't performing as promised.

Edited by TallGuyJohninBKK
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BTW, here's the True web pages that show their modem/router options for their different service levels. I believe the first link is just for their cable modems, while the second is for their modem/wifi combos:

http://support2.truecorp.co.th/detail.aspx?document_id=316

http://support2.truecorp.co.th/detail.aspx?document_id=317

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8868.png

Update on Ultra 100/10.

Alfahane, thanks for posting this info above... Unfortunately, it's not the result I would have hoped to see for True's 100 Mbps plan.

While it's always a bit risky to draw conclusions based on one person's experience, the result above gives more credence to the emerging notion that while True's different cable speed services may offer greater performance on domestic connections/downloads, they don't seem to be doing much for international connections. The speed test result above to Los Angeles is pretty much identical to those that I just posted to L.A. for my 10/1 Mbps True cable plan.

Now, different people use the internet in different ways... And there are some much-used content sources that have localized delivery networks for Thailand like YouTube and Google and even Apple and some file download networks, where the content you're accessing is reached locally or regionally, thus you'd benefit in those examples from a really high speed Thailand connection (assuming True's 100 Mbps plan provides that).

But for folks who might be trying to do a Slingbox set-up from the U.S. or stream Netflix or Hulu or American professional sports online -- and all the other examples where the online content is having to come from the U.S. without any localized delivery network here in Thailand -- your result above suggests it would be foolish for them to be spending a ton of extra money each month on the higher speed True plans.... since they're apparently not providing anything close to those speeds for their international connections.

One other footnote: it looks from the image you posted above that the test you did was one of their Flash-based tests... And those sometimes have been shown to not be accurate for higher speed internet connections. You might look to try their Java-based test and see if the results come back any different...better or worse. Since the Java based test is generally recommended for higher speed connections like your 100 Mbps plan.

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I'm on True 10/1 DOCSIS and was provided with a Cisco EPC2325 cable modem, 4 port + wireless.

Note only supports 802.11g, NOT 802.11n, might be important if you are steaming HD.

I've been wrestling with the G vs. N issue lately here at home... As it turns out, I currently have an older Linksys WRT-54GS G class wifi router connected to my True 10 Mbps cable connection... and sitting right next to it, I have a Linksys E1000 N class router connected to my True 7 Mbps DSL connection.

I recently installed some wifi signal evaluating software on my bedroom wifi laptop that sits in an adjoining room maybe 15 feet away. And when I compared the two routers for the first time in that way, I found I was actually getting a stronger signal consistently from the 54G GS (rated at 54 Mbps max) than I was from the E1000N (2.4 Ghz band only, rated at 300 Mbps max).

Now needless to say, none of my incoming True data connections ever get anywhere close to 54 Mbps or 300 Mbps, for that matter. So seeing those results caused me to begin re-evaluating whether, at least in my case, there's much advantage to having and paying extra for an N router, especially when reading how so many people have problems with quality control, overheating, bad firmware and dropping connections of many of the newer N models.... whereas the Linksys WRT54 G series routers are pretty much a proven, reliable workhorse.

Ahh...I should note, re Terry's comment above, that all of my wifi content is streamed... I don't really play a lot of downloaded files locally. So in Terry's example of HD, I can see where the higher capacity N wifi would carry some potential advantage.

I had read originally that supposedly the N class routers, all other things being equal, would perform better in terms of range and signal strength through walls and such. But at least in my case, my results aren't showing that to be true.

Now, with N class routers, lately, there's also the ability to access dual bands or dual simultaneous bands at 2.4Ghz and 5 Ghz, with the latter likely being pretty much unused by most people around these parts... So maybe there'd be some advantage there, particularly is the more common and widely used 2.4 Ghz band is very congested in your particular area... But thus far, I haven't seen much in the way of conclusive, clear evidence that suggests the 5 Ghz band offers major advantages in most cases... But I'm not a networking geek, either... :)

Edited by TallGuyJohninBKK
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8868.png

Update on Ultra 100/10.

wow i really had high expectations for 100/10 mb true plan

its good that i chose my cat pack package over the true

i mean i literally can get 23-25 mb to US servers in the afternoon

in the morning its more like 25-30 mb

Here are few test done by my cat fibre optic compared to your True plan

1649370202.png This is to SF

1649381858.png To Uk

1649390306.png New zealand

1649395968.png Cambodia

1649398591.png Australia

1649400200.png Bangladesh

1649403072.png MALE

Note some of the test might be little biased since its early morning laugh.gif

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As for MagicJack, I've used that device as my primary phone with several varieties of True service, both DSL and cable internet... And I've never had any problems with voice quality. The main issue I've found I need to be careful about with MagicJack calls is not having any downloading or uploading activity going on in the background at the same time.

I don't use MagicJack but do use a U.S. VOIP service and its associated VOIP adapter box. When I switched from TOT ADSL to True cable 20Mb/2Mb plan I got the Cisco EPC2325 54G wireless modem/router. It has been working fine. However, I found that when using my VOIP service "voice-mail" that when the voice-mail asked me to enter my PIN number to access my voice-mail the VOIP/voice-mail service couldn't hear the numbers I was pressing/entering which preventing me from accessing my voice-mail. I fixed this my turning off the "IP Flood Protection" setting in the Cisco EPC2325 Firewall setup....the default setting was IP Flood Protection turned on. I didn't have this problem when/if using my LinkSys or US Robotics wireless router but neither of them had a setting called IP Flood Protection. Just FYI.

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wow i really had high expectations for 100/10 mb true plan

its good that i chose my cat pack package over the true

i mean i literally can get 23-25 mb to US servers in the afternoon

<snip>

You know about "caching", right?

Yea, but in shariq607's case he getting valid ping times which indicates caching may not be in play. Shariq607's speedtest results on his CAT fiber have been amazing while his friend's results who has the same plan as shariq607 have been similar to typical cable/ADSL download speeds to the U.S./Europe in the 3-6Mb ballpark. In early posts, shariq607 mentioned he lives very close to the CAT fiber central station so maybe that has something to do with it although a person would think fiber wouldn't be a picky about being close to the central station. But with the monthly price for a CAT fiber plan being so high hopefully he is getting those amazing speeds to farangland; other types of downloanding testing like talked about in this topic would help confirm.

Edited by Pib
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Shariq607's speedtest results on his CAT fiber have been amazing while his friend's results who has the same plan as shariq607 have been similar to typical cable/ADSL download speeds to the U.S./Europe in the 3-6Mb ballpark.

I agree... It makes Shariq's results intriguing... But the fact that they haven't been replicated by his friend or, as yet, anyone else posting here leaves a lot of uncertainty...

But, I'd certainly hope we hear more about it from other users, so we can begin to piece together just what can be reasonably expected from the CAT service.... same as occurred with True cable in the early going.

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i can also confirm that True Internet is cheating on all speedtest

i have the 20 mbit plan for 1300 thb

and my ping to literally everywhere is 18 ms, which is just not possible, on top of that i have own dedicated boxes in San Francisco, Miami, Amsterdam and Frankfurt

when i directly ping them over command line i have the normal ping of 200-300 ms which i used to have before true internet started cheating on the speedtest

i also realized since they started the cheating its close to impossilbe to use openVPN anymore cause connections to them are plain horrible

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True is not cheating; the problem is with the speedtest programs.

If all speedtest programs were written to prevent files from being downloaded from cache servers and instead download from the server at the intended location then the results would be accurate/real world. Nothing wrong in employing cache servers in a network as these type of servers really speedup internet use; speedtesting programs like Speedtest.net just need to improve/fix their programming.

I would much rather be with an ISP that does use cache servers which speeds up things versus one that does not spend the extra money on cache servers. A person just needs to be aware that when using some speedtest programs like Speedtest.net that the speedtest results can be skewed/fooled/inaccurate.

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i can also confirm that True Internet is cheating on all speedtest

i have the 20 mbit plan for 1300 thb

and my ping to literally everywhere is 18 ms, which is just not possible, on top of that i have own dedicated boxes in San Francisco, Miami, Amsterdam and Frankfurt

when i directly ping them over command line i have the normal ping of 200-300 ms which i used to have before true internet started cheating on the speedtest

i also realized since they started the cheating its close to impossilbe to use openVPN anymore cause connections to them are plain horrible

As posted earlier in this thread many times over, you can remedy -- at least partly -- the bad/false speed test results problem with True Online and Speedtest.net by using True's proxy setting in your browser when you run those tests on that site.

That doesn't address the problematic results I posted above wherein even with True's proxy turned on, the Speedtest.net site still was giving speed test results for True that were consistently double those given by both the Java and Flash-based speed tests from DSLReports.com. But it's better than nothing.

Meanwhile, in the past testing I've done using both cable and DSL versions of True Online, private, secured third-party proxies provided the fastest connection method of that type. PPTP connections were the next fastest, usually about one-third slower than private, secured third-party proxies. And the slowest of all was regular Open VPN-SSL connections, because of the high data overhead rate involved.

True's international connections certainly aren't as fast as we all would like. But there are things you can do to at least maximize the available performance, while still getting the other country IP address or other things the user needs. No one in Thailand is especially trying to censor the Internet content that most people are pulling from other countries, so encryption usually isn't an especially important issue. As long as you don't need encryption, VPN is simply connection slowing overkill.

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After a pretty long period of very slow speeds, I've noticed my True cable 10 Mbps service has been doing better lately... Was able to average 2 to 3 Mbps download stream the other night (Sat night/Sun morning) just after midnight local time, using a Witopia proxy in California and connecting to NFL Game Rewind.

That was particularly good performance, especially since the past couple months it seemed the cable service during those kinds of prime hours had trouble just keeping a 400 to 500 Kbps stream. And the weekend nights usually have been especially bad, even worse than regular weeknights.

post-58284-0-59029100-1324305939_thumb.j

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  • 1 month later...

True, as with nearly all Thai ISPs, throttle each thread. So no matter what package you have it seems you're limited to around 1.8Mb speeds to US/EU etc. That's per thread mind.

Where having a "bigger" package makes sense is when you run multiple threads. I download from Usenet using 20 threads. My download speeds from US server are always around 2.5MB on my 20/2 line.

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It does seem really strange that I could use Facetime and Dish Networks TV Everyhwere in Ontario, Canada to the US on a 4 mbps plan and get better connection than I do here with a 16 mbps. Even in the US my plan was only 8 mbps and we could get HD quality steaming from TV Everywhere on my iPad. Here I'm lucky to even get a picture...when it isn't blocked.

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so is there anything i can do with my TrueInternet 20 mbps plan which improves performance, i litterally cant do a proper skype call cause the connection is so bad, and that on a 20 mbps line is unbelievable to me

I've got the True cable 20Mb plan...works great and super reliable. It does streaming video just fine, VOIP calls just fine (clear as a bell to/from the U.S. using Google Call or Vonage/8x8 VOIP, and for the 7 months I've had the service there was only one 8 hour period where both my cable internet and cable TV were offline--this was caused by a wide-area outage...the moment the cable TV came back online the internet was online also. Even during the flooding when 1.0 to 1.5 meters of water was in my western Bangkok moobaan for over a month the cable internet or TV never went down...can't say the same for the folks/my neighbors on TOT ADSL. I get the full 20Mb speed for in-Thailand and 3-6Mb speed to international sites 24/7.

You might want to try using one of the True proxy servers of proxy.trueinternet.co.th or proxy.asianet.co.th....both use Port 8080. You set-up the proxy in your browser settings/menu.

But with above being said, I'm sure you've heard the ol' real estate saying of Location, Location, Location. Well, although my 20Mb True cable plan works great (knock on wood) here in western Bangkok if you have a problem in the connection to your residence or you local area circuit are overloaded then your speed/service will suffer just like with an ADSL connection.

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It does seem really strange that I could use Facetime and Dish Networks TV Everyhwere in Ontario, Canada to the US on a 4 mbps plan and get better connection than I do here with a 16 mbps. Even in the US my plan was only 8 mbps and we could get HD quality steaming from TV Everywhere on my iPad. Here I'm lucky to even get a picture...when it isn't blocked.

In the States/Canada you were probably connecting to other US/Canada web sites...worst case reaching out a few thousand miles and not going through too many hops. But when trying to reach US/Canada web sites from Thailand you are reaching half-way around the world...probably going through around 20 hops, and of course dealing with the international bandwidth limitation/throttling it seems all Thai ISPs do. But the big thing, especially for streaming video which needs smooth, consistent data flow, is the long distance/many hops to the other side of the world which causes a lot of stop-and-go (in the milliseconds) of data flow...a real killer for streaming video. A person can stream video just fine with just a couple of Mb (or less) of download speed, but its got to be smooth, consistent data flow.

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It does seem really strange that I could use Facetime and Dish Networks TV Everyhwere in Ontario, Canada to the US on a 4 mbps plan and get better connection than I do here with a 16 mbps. Even in the US my plan was only 8 mbps and we could get HD quality steaming from TV Everywhere on my iPad. Here I'm lucky to even get a picture...when it isn't blocked.

In the States/Canada you were probably connecting to other US/Canada web sites...worst case reaching out a few thousand miles and not going through too many hops. But when trying to reach US/Canada web sites from Thailand you are reaching half-way around the world...probably going through around 20 hops, and of course dealing with the international bandwidth limitation/throttling it seems all Thai ISPs do. But the big thing, especially for streaming video which needs smooth, consistent data flow, is the long distance/many hops to the other side of the world which causes a lot of stop-and-go (in the milliseconds) of data flow...a real killer for streaming video. A person can stream video just fine with just a couple of Mb (or less) of download speed, but its got to be smooth, consistent data flow.

Ok that makes more sense.

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10mb package. Worked fine till last week. Now cannot ftp a 30kb file without a connection time out or finish the Singapore speed test. Sukhumvit 22. Seems to get stuck halfway by some type of firewall.

Almost sounds like an MTU issue. Did you use any speed optimization / TCP tweaking apps recently ?

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Does anyone have issues connecting to certain websites??? For the longest time i could not fully load tiger airways. I then installed the true proxy and now can use tiget but can not load thai ems tracking. Of course i could disable the proxy and use thai ems but this is a PIA......

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Does anyone have issues connecting to certain websites??? For the longest time i could not fully load tiger airways. I then installed the true proxy and now can use tiget but can not load thai ems tracking. Of course i could disable the proxy and use thai ems but this is a PIA......

I'm on the True cable 20Mb/2Mb plan and can load Tiger Airways with or without the proxy on. But I can only load the Thai EMS tracking site with the proxy off.

Late last year I couldn't access the U.S. Bangkok Embassy American Citizens Services appoint system or the U.S. Social Security website...could only access those two sites with the proxy on or through VPN...both of these sites are hosted on servers in the States...but I noticed in December those two access problems have went away.

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  • 6 months later...

Is it possible to sign up for the Ultra Hi speed internet package or ADSL package without having a 12 months contract in Bangkok? Can I transfer the contract to another condo for example after 6 months if I sign up for a 1 year deal? Assuming that both condos have true cable TV or whatever one uses to connect the modem/router to.

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