Exodus Of Western Expats From Pattaya

[tropo]

But you do need experience (long term residence time in Pattaya) to understand what actually happened as opposed to what you assume happened ( the 70s fishing village to today). The fact that you did not experience the long term change is your reality. I think you should respect the views of people who did experience the change. Having a long term perspective is not "bragging," it is simply having a long term perspective. You almost seem hostile to people who have more experience than you. I have no idea why. And trying to portray people with long term perspectives as "old foggies" is bad form. Your short term perspective is just that: short term. Ignoring the long term perspective is a mistake. Believe it or not, experience/history is actually important. I suppose one way of make your short term perspective seem important/relevant is to ignore the long term perspectives of expats who are far more familiar with the changes that have taken place in the area than you are. My guess is that you were not a particularly good student of history At first I thought you liked Pattaya. But saying that you hope you do not end up "doing 20 years" in Pattaya tells me you are frustrated with the place. All that aside, I would like to hear from the "old foggies" (people who have been here at least 20 years) and know about the changes and can let us know what actually happened as opposed to myths generated by people who have no idea what they are talking about.

You are assuming an awful lot and we're going of in a tangent.

I don't care about 20 year perspectives on Pattaya's changes. That's irrelevant to this thread as the only perspective that was discussed by the OP here was a 7 YEAR perspective. Nothing much as changed in that time. The place doesn't look or feel different.

I don't want to be here in 20 years time simply because I don't believe Pattaya will be the right place for me when I'm an old man. That doesn't mean it's wrong for me now or that I dislike it.

Edited February 18, 2011 by tropo

[rott]

Now come on troops please try and cut Jingo some slack, tell you what some poor cafe owner somewhere will be getting a stinking review today if they are not really, really, performing.

[Rimmer]

Argumentative and inflammatory posts removed from view. Enough already

[jombom]

Long term staying in Vietnam seems to be easy enough. One link below.

http://www.expat.vn/translations-paper-work/vietnam-visa

A 1 year visa is about 8500 baht, and there are no visa runs required. When you live there, it seems to be easy enough to get renewals in the country. Many ex-pats I spoke with, had been there for several years.

The coastal city of Nha Trang is worth a visit. It's a smaller version of Pattaya, with an estimated 3000 to 5000 semi-permanent ex-pat residents, and between 20,000 and 40,000 foreigners passing through depending on the season. Link below

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nha_Trang

[Jingthing]

These long term expats, what percentage are working or own businesses or are investors? I continue to not be convinced there is a realistic long term RETIREMENT option and that outline like web page does nothing at all to convince me otherwise. Can someone do better?

[Jingthing]

OK, I just spent an hour googling for definitive info on how a totally retired person could live permanently in Vietnam, VISA-wise. I found NOTHING that detailed that. I did find the usual PR bull-sheet about the low cost of soup and beer and how the country is a desirable place to retire, the same kind of fluff stuff you see about many other countries without realistic visa options for expat retirees. I admit this is a pet peeve of mine, why should people invest time and money exploring retirement destinations to places which don't actually support that?

Compare to countries that actually DO support expat retirement, visa-wise. Try finding out about retirement expatriation in the Dominican Republic, for example. You can get definitive information in a few SECONDS.

In any case, I give up, I can't find the definitive info on Vietnam about full time retirement expat visa mechanics. If you can find a clear credible source detailing that, I will gladly congratulate you and admit I was wrong in my skepticism.

Edited February 19, 2011 by Jingthing

[tropo]

OK, I just spent an hour googling for definitive info on how a totally retired person could live permanently in Vietnam, VISA-wise. I found NOTHING that detailed that. I did find the usual PR bull-sheet about the low cost of soup and beer and how the country is a desirable place to retire, the same kind of fluff stuff you see about many other countries without realistic visa options for expat retirees. I admit this is a pet peeve of mine, why should people invest time and money exploring retirement destinations to places which don't actually support that?

Compare to countries that actually DO support expat retirement, visa-wise. Try finding out about retirement expatriation in the Dominican Republic, for example. You can get definitive information in a few SECONDS.

In any case, I give up, I can't find the definitive info on Vietnam about full time retirement expat visa mechanics. If you can find a clear credible source detailing that, I will gladly congratulate you and admit I was wrong in my skepticism.

It didn't take long to find this:

Reply #6 hcmcfred from HCMC, Vietnam - (from HERE )

As far as I know, there is no such thing as a retirement visa in Vietnam. Even getting married doesn't really help your visa situation, though laws are changing rapidly these days.

Getting a new visa or an extension every 6 months is quite easy, though. I haven't yet left the country in 8 years; I just get a new stamp every 6 months.

If it is as easy as this guy says, that's better than having to report every 3 months and make a new application every year.

[actiondell4]

I think its great that there s an exodus of expats back to their homelands,especially those to the Uk,they will be in for a real shock,because I was listening to talk back radio today and I heard there s "no England anymore",I think The Kinks were singing it.

Mind you its their own fault they let there Country get into that shocking State.its in.

Yes please leave Pattaya.

Edited February 19, 2011 by actiondell4

[Jingthing]

That's pretty good, tropo, but the guy posting doesn't mention in his post whether he is actually retired and doing nothing, or whether as I feel most expats in Vietnam do, he has some kind of investment/business/work connection. Thanks though.

BTW, I tried to go the blog linked to that poster's user name to see if he shared more info about his status in VN -- NOT FOUND.

However, I DID find this under his description --

blog: Living in Saigon, Vietnam

An American teaching ESL in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam since 2001.

So I wouldn't put much credence in visa advice for retirees from someone who is probably NOT retired in VN, would you?

STILL looking for more definitive evidence actually retiring there long term is REALLY feasible, visa-wise.

Edited February 19, 2011 by Jingthing

[jombom]

What's the issue about retired or not. Obviously (maybe) I am missing something.

A person can go to Vietnam, and stay there for a long time. Anyone's status is kinda up to them to state.

There are all sorts and types of expats living in Vietnam. There does not appear to be a problem with this.

Sometimes, sadly, it appears people buy into all the rules and regs in Thailand, and think this is all normal.

Talking with an English expat in Saigon, he told me , he had been in Vietnam 8 years. He was teaching English, and I guessed his age at between 30 and 40.

He had no work permit, and did not seem too concerned about it. When I enquired further, he told me, when they check-up, they tell him to make sure he has one the next time they visit. No threats of deportation, jail, or whatever. Seems to be kinda civilized.

[Jingthing]

The guy without a work permit isn't staying in VN because of the permit. He is staying on some kind of visa or extension. In other words, we would need to know more details about that guy's story to make any general conclusions about it. Yes it matters, retired or not retired. Many countries are not very accessible to retired expats that may be very accessible to working expats. We already know there are plenty of visa options to legitimately work, invest, or open a business in VN, the unanswered question is long term retirement. Another good question that would be good to get answered is if you can stay in VN indefinitely on tourist visa extensions. While that's not something most people would be happy to do for years, it would be good to know if that is possible.

Here is some dry VN visa information, but it still really doesn't answer if retired expats can expect to live there for years visa-wise, or not.

http://www.expatforum.com/articles/visas-permits-and-immigration/vietnam-visas-permits-and-immigration.html

Edited February 19, 2011 by Jingthing

[tropo]

, the unanswered question is long term retirement.

To be fair, has the question of long term retirement in Thailand really been addressed. Many retirees don't feel confident about the long term outlook.

Thailand's policitcal instability certainly doesn't help matters either.

Edited February 19, 2011 by tropo

[Jingthing]

That's a more abstract question. There are clear rules for retiring in Thailand, visa-wise. There is no retirement visa for Cambodia, but it is well known you can live there for years on business visas without starting a business. For Vietnam, based on the info we have gleaned here so far at least, we don't know.

[johnnyk]

The decline really sped up about 2 years ago. Now all I see is Russian tourists everywhere and bars being torn down. Sad to see the place go to the dogs like it has.

I moved to Pattaya just as it started to take this nosedive. I had no idea when I moved here everyone else would be moving out.

Should I move somewhere else? Maybe a different country? I've thought about moving to Cambodia. No visa hassles is a big plus for me, since I'm only 30 and can't get a retirement visa. Khmer food is pretty tasty. Prices are fairly low if you can avoid getting ripped off. Although the major downside is the lack of infrastructure. No good hospitals yet and few of the nice condos you have in Thailand.

I wouldn't move to Hua Hin. I predict in 5 years it will be another Pattaya. Cha Am will be another Pattaya in about 10 yrs.

I've lived in Hua Hin for 5 yesrs, the chances of this place or Cha am becoming another Pattaya are absolutley zero.

Absolutely correct.

[Jingthing]

Well, here's another up and coming country which I didn't realize was possible before. COLUMBIA. Big cities, mountain cities, Cartagena on the ocean ...

I'm sure Cartagena has lots of saucy nightlife.

Retirement visa -- pretty much ANY pension qualifies (at least that's the info I have so far)

Financially based, non-pension -- 33,000 dollars per year

http://www.colhouston.org/servicios/visas.php

Edited February 20, 2011 by Jingthing

[timekeeper]

Well, here's another up and coming country which I didn't realize was possible before. COLUMBIA. Big cities, mountain cities, Cartagena on the ocean ...

I'm sure Cartagena has lots of saucy nightlife.

Retirement visa -- pretty much ANY pension qualifies (at least that's the info I have so far)

Financially based, non-pension -- 33,000 dollars per year

http://www.colhousto...icios/visas.php

i am thinking you could have a high old time in Columbia.............

[Awohalitsiktoli]

That's a more abstract question. There are clear rules for retiring in Thailand, visa-wise. There is no retirement visa for Cambodia, but it is well known you can live there for years on business visas without starting a business. For Vietnam, based on the info we have gleaned here so far at least, we don't know.

No retirement visas in Vietnam as ofnow (but see solutions below....hope it is helpful).

TheVN government has gotten picky about many visas the past year and no retirementvisas on the horizon. You can get a 3 month "Business visa" onrequest and usually renew it once in country. Then you can take a trip to PP orBKK and get another round upon return. Thiscan be done indefinitely (and no needto be married to a Vietnamese woman or have a child by her).

(NOTE: This is very similar to how expats live longterm in Cambodia…youget a business visa but don’t have to set up a business. The process is actually easier in Cambodia.)

Thisisn't officially a work permit, but allows you to stay and "dobusiness". They have been cracking down on people working without a permitbut we all suspect that this will stop next year as the pool of availableexperienced foreigners shrinks. It IS getting rid of some of thechaff(scammers/drug biz), so in the end maybe not a bad idea by Vietnam.

Residentcards can be had with some assistance. They come in 1 and 3 year terms. Or youcan start a company and get a 3 year visa. So still some options for long termstay here.

A permanent residence card is the solution for peoplewho wish to regularly visit to stay in Vietnam for a longer period. It isperfect for people that wish to retirein Vietnam and for other people who want to stay in Vietnamwithout a work permit.

At point c, item 1, article 13 Ordinance onimmigration, migration, residence of foreigners in Vietnamdated 28^th April 2000,foreigners who are temporarily residing in Vietnam in one of following casesare considered and approved of permanent residence:

Wife,husband, child, father, mother of Vietnamese citizen permanently residing inVietnam (so, to get this you eitherhave to be married to a Vietnamese woman or have a child by a Vietnamese woman)

PermanentResidence Card has unlimited validity, every 3 years, the card holder will haveto update their Permanent Residence card. The card holder also can use thiscard as an unlimited visa to come to Vietnam.

APPLYFOR NEW PERMANENT RESIDENCE CARD

Requireddocuments:

1. 02 application forms for permanent residence (Form N7,attached with 04 passport photos 3 cm x 4cm).

2. 02 curriculum vitae statements of the applicant (FormN10)

3. 02 judicial record copies approved by competent publicauthority of the country where such person is a citizen or of the country wheresuch person permanently resides.

4. Diplomatic note of competent public authority of thecountry where such person is a citizen requesting for approval of such person’spermanent residence in Vietnam(Attached with a transfer note of Vietnamese diplomatic agency).

5. 02 copies of passport.

6. 02 copies of visa or temporary alien card valid at thetime of submitting documents, 02 copies of immigration declaration.

7. 02 copies of documents to prove being wife, husband,child, father, mother of Vietnamese citizen permanently residing in Vietnam.

8. 02 guarantee letters for foreigners temporarilyresiding in Vietnam (Form N9) confirmed by People’s Committee of ward, commune,attached with 02 copies of Identity card, family record of the guarantor. Theguarantor and the guarantee must show documents to prove having legal houses orlegal financial sources to ensure having house and life for the guarantee.

Abovedocuments (except for application for permanent residence, diplomatic note,passport, visa) must be translated into Vietnamese and certified or legalizedas regulated.

Whereto apply for Permanent Residence card: The Immigration Department of the citywhere the foreigner lives.

Returningresult: Within 6 months, Immigration Department must consider and confirmwhether they accept to issue the Permanent Residence card or any changes/additional documents required. After confirmation, the Immigration Departmentwill have to issue the Permanent Residence card within 5 working days.

RENEW,CHANGE, UPDATE PERMANENT RESIDENCE CARD

Every03 years, Permanent Residence Card holder must bring their card to present atImmigration Department of the province, city directly under the CentralGovernment, when presenting he/she must show permanent Residence card andsubmit photos to change for new card.

Incase he/she wishes to change the contents of the permanent residence card, theresidence card holder must submit the application to Immigration Department ofthe resident place. The procedures are as follows:

1. 01 statement request for changing permanent residencecard (Form N8, attached to 02 3×4cm photos) confirmed by local public securityof the residence place.

2. 01 copy of passport (bring original to compare)

3. 01 original old permanent residence card

[tropo]

I wouldn't move to Hua Hin. I predict in 5 years it will be another Pattaya. Cha Am will be another Pattaya in about 10 yrs.

I've lived in Hua Hin for 5 yesrs, the chances of this place or Cha am becoming another Pattaya are absolutley zero.

Absolutely correct.

I'll take Hua Hin off my list of possible alternate locations then.

[Jingthing]

Awohalitsiktoli, that was excellent info on VN!

My interpretation of that for expat retirees:

For faux "business visa" type retirement you need to make visa runs every three or six months. Usually six months as you can USUALLY renew in country.

Risk -- maybe declined for the extension.

Then a new visa run and a new faux business visa (no actual business). Theoretically, can do this indefinitely.

Risk -- embassy policy changes, as with anything like this always a future risk for decline, they might ask so what is your business exactly in VN?

Resident card a better solution -- however, a personal relation connection to a VN national is required to make application

Anyway, that's how I see it, and that's kind of in between no retirement visa (which I already knew) and a no realistic option. In my view, that kind of situation (unless you have a VN relation) is probably not going to appeal to a huge number of retired expats, the visa runs, etc. but surely of interest to more adventurous risk taking types.

I also guess some people who would LIKE to be retired expats in VN start some kind of real business anyway to avoid the visa run hassles. Not such a great reason to start a business.

Compare that visa run thing to Cambodia where the annual extensions are done in country through a travel agent and there is a track record of people doing that for many years. Of course someday Cambodia probably can and will change that super easy faux business visa policy.

Edited February 20, 2011 by Jingthing

[Awohalitsiktoli]

Awohalitsiktoli, that was excellent info on VN!

My interpretation of that for expat retirees:

For faux "business visa" type retirement you need to make visa runs every three or six months. Usually six months as you can USUALLY renew in country.

Risk -- maybe declined for the extension.

Then a new visa run and a new faux business visa (no actual business). Theoretically, can do this indefinitely.

Risk -- embassy policy changes, as with anything like this always a future risk for decline, they might ask so what is your business exactly in VN?

Resident card a better solution -- however, a personal relation connection to a VN national is required to make application

Anyway, that's how I see it, and that's kind of in between no retirement visa (which I already knew) and a no realistic option. In my view, that kind of situation (unless you have a VN relation) is probably not going to appeal to a huge number of retired expats, the visa runs, etc. but surely of interest to more adventurous risk taking types.

I also guess some people who would LIKE to be retired expats in VN start some kind of real business anyway to avoid the visa run hassles. Not such a great reason to start a business.

Compare that visa run thing to Cambodia where the annual extensions are done in country through a travel agent and there is a track record of people doing that for many years. Of course someday Cambodia probably can and will change that super easy faux business visa policy.

Thanks for letting me know that you appreciated the information on Vietnam.

Vietnam and Cambodia aside, Thailand is moving in the direction of making it harder to retire.

Personally, I do not see any long term retirement security in Thailand.

But where to go next? I have no idea at this point.

[Jingthing]

I disagree about Thailand. The retirement visa system here is very coherent and consistent. If you have the funds, you must deal with the extensions annually, but your success or failure is totally predictable based on whether you met the clearly defined rules or not. Will the required funds be raised in future? Of course. However, in the past such increases have been accompanied with a GRANDFATHERING clause allowing those already in the system to use the older, lower levels. It is true you are only a one year tether here, and staying here one year or thirty years on that status makes no difference to your status, and that there is no path towards permanent residence in the retirement system. There are a number of countries with retirement visa systems that offer much more than Thailand, but Thailand offers a bank account qualifying option (very rare), reasonable financial levels to qualify, and most countries don't offer ANY retirement visa system at all.

That all said, the elephant in the room in Thailand is political instability and the still existent risk of social meltdown/civil war.

If you are looking for a system that has lower financial requirements than Thailand and also countries that offer easy paths towards permanent residence or even a second passport, yes those exist in the world (generally in Latin America).

Edited February 20, 2011 by Jingthing

[jombom]

Re Visa Runs;

One day in Saigon, I asked a Welsh guy (he had never been to Thailand) about Visa runs.

He had no concept of what I was talking about. So, naturally I tried to explain. When finished, he said.

'' So, you go to the border, go across the border, and then come back again. Why would anybody do that? It makes no sense. Why don't you just go down to the Police station, like we do, and get it sorted?''

At this stage, I made a mental note, not to raise the subject of border-runs again.

[prefabs]

I'm getting lost here. If Jingthing leaves and goes to Vietnam, who will tell us about good food and baht bus scams?

[Jingthing]

Yeah, but you aren't telling us what visa type the Welsh guy was staying on, and also how long he had stayed in VN without leaving the country.

[Jingthing]

I'm getting lost here. If Jingthing leaves and goes to Vietnam, who will tell us about good food and baht bus scams?

Thanks for that. I'm much more interested in Ecuador actually, but am in no rush to leave Thailand; just like to have some options handy.

[Awohalitsiktoli]

I disagree about Thailand. The retirement visa system here is very coherent and consistent. If you have the funds, you must deal with the extensions annually, but your success or failure is totally predictable based on whether you met the clearly defined rules or not. Will the required funds be raised in future? Of course. However, in the past such increases have been accompanied with a GRANDFATHERING clause allowing those already in the system to use the older, lower levels. It is true you are only a one year tether here, and staying here one year or thirty years on that status makes no difference to your status, and that there is no path towards permanent residence in the retirement system. There are a number of countries with retirement visa systems that offer much more than Thailand, but Thailand offers a bank account qualifying option (very rare), reasonable financial levels to qualify, and most countries don't offer ANY retirement visa system at all.

That all said, the elephant in the room in Thailand is political instability and the still existent risk of social meltdown/civil war.

If you are looking for a system that has lower financial requirements than Thailand and also countries that offer easy paths towards permanent residence or even a second passport, yes those exist in the world (generally in Latin America).

I understand what you are saying. But, contrary to popular belief, "grandfathered-in" rules can be changed by the govt. at any moment. The phrase might make people feel better, but there really is no permanent security associated with it. And there are other problems associated with those rules.

Correct me if I am wrong, but a "retiree" might at one point have a retirement visa grandfathered in at 800K. Then he might choose to drop it in favor of a marriage visa/extension grandfathered in at 400K. Then the govt. raises the bar on the retirement visa to 1600K per year (extreme hypothetical scenario). Then he gets divorced (no more marriage visa). And now must get another retirement visa. BUT now he is not grandfathered in at 800K and must show 1600K to qualify.

I think that scenario is possible, but I am not sure. My point is that "visa security" for retirees is evaporating worldwide, including Thailand. Some countries do make it very easy for retirees, like Cambodia. You get the impression that they really want us. I have never gotten that impression from Thai Immigration officials, but perhaps I should remove my war paint before entering the immigration office

[Jingthing]

Under the current system the grandfathered goes away if you break the chain in some way. In other words, if you have been getting extensions for 20 years on the same visa, but for some reason don't get a new extension in a timely way, you must start over with a new visa and the current financial rules. Of course, any visa policy can change at any time. But you could say that about any country!

[Lancelot]

Who the hell do you think you are and why oh why do you have to be so aggressive? What in God's name is wrong with you????

Jing runs hot and cold; sometimes he is good natured and sometimes, well he's not

Probably just skipped his medication today

[Jingthing]

Who the hell do you think you are and why oh why do you have to be so aggressive? What in God's name is wrong with you????

Jing runs hot and cold; sometimes he is good natured and sometimes, well he's not

Probably just skipped his medication today

Aggressive, schmagressive. That was a case of thin skin syndrome. Just the facts, ma'am. Edited February 21, 2011 by Jingthing

[tropo]

Of course, any visa policy can change at any time. But you could say that about any country!

I doubt a Western country would change rules and kick out retirees once they are settled though. You could see that potentially happening in Thailand. A couple of years ago they just about did that with dependents of retirees.

If they moved the bar up (monthly income or bank deposit) they would be sending many away.