Sachs Motorcycles In Thailand

[Richard-BKK]

Fym had parts supplied from other manufacturers ( ask the suppliers if they got paid?)

Fym got payment from Companys for Bikes to be sent ( ask them what they received?)

Sorry I will not join you in mud throwing – I'm sure if I pickup the telephone I can have everybody on this forum entertained for weeks if I start publishing unpaid invoices from all parties involved....

The fact is that in the end mud throwing doesn't help anybody... especially when you serious about selling products...

And what can I say, I'm not desperate – as long they show me the money I will do my part...

Edited February 14, 2011 by Richard-BKK

[mbox]

Fym had parts supplied from other manufacturers ( ask the suppliers if they got paid?)

Fym got payment from Companys for Bikes to be sent ( ask them what they received?)

Sorry I will not join you in mud throwing – I'm sure if I pickup the telephone I can have everybody on this forum entertained for weeks if I start publishing unpaid invoices from all parties involved....

The fact is that in the end mud throwing doesn't help anybody... especially when you serious about selling products...

And what can I say, I'm not desperate – as long they show me the money I will do my part...

Which means you use Thaivisa as advertising platform for your Business, not?

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[Richard-BKK]

Fym had parts supplied from other manufacturers ( ask the suppliers if they got paid?)

Fym got payment from Companys for Bikes to be sent ( ask them what they received?)

Sorry I will not join you in mud throwing – I'm sure if I pickup the telephone I can have everybody on this forum entertained for weeks if I start publishing unpaid invoices from all parties involved....

The fact is that in the end mud throwing doesn't help anybody... especially when you serious about selling products...

And what can I say, I'm not desperate – as long they show me the money I will do my part...

Which means you use Thaivisa as advertising platform for your Business, not?

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Which business is that? I needed to give some information about how I got the info regarding the changes with Sachs Bikes, therefore I needed to say that I was contacted to find a new distributor for them. Did I lie about anything I said?

Did I ever said that Tiger motorcycles made bad products, or that they will stop producing MadAss or other motorcycles? No reading back I did not.

For my comments regarding Tiger vs new Lifan models, I found the information about the new Lifan models on ThaiVisa. New Lifan 250 models personally I still had the idea that the two models where concept models...

Edited February 14, 2011 by Richard-BKK

[LivinLOS]

Also China is NOT a member of ASEAN

Yes, you're right. China is not, same as India which is also not an ASEAN member country. Still with both countries Thailand has a free-trade-agreement, which include motorcycles powered with an engine less than 250cc. Kawasaki is using the rules to export the Ninja 250R to India...

Hence if the KTM duke 200 (caught on spy shots this week) is made in India and sold we get a tax free Duke200 ??

[Richard-BKK]

Also China is NOT a member of ASEAN

Yes, you're right. China is not, same as India which is also not an ASEAN member country. Still with both countries Thailand has a free-trade-agreement, which include motorcycles powered with an engine less than 250cc. Kawasaki is using the rules to export the Ninja 250R to India...

Hence if the KTM duke 200 (caught on spy shots this week) is made in India and sold we get a tax free Duke200 ??

I'm not sure it's free as in zero tax. You probably still need to pay the 7% sales tax... And not forget Bajaj Auto has very good relations in Thailand.

Edited February 14, 2011 by Richard-BKK

[thaicbr]

Anyway.. Richard in summary..

You have been employed by the one of the former Sachs Manufacturing companies (FYM) to try and find a distributor for FYM products in Thailand. Is that correct.

As Fym are not the official holders of the Sachs name. It would seem that every one will be changing names shortly.....

Ok cool. I think i have it now... wonderful.

Oh any news on new Zongshen bikes coming to Thailand (They are my favourite Chinese bikes for quality)

[Richard-BKK]

Oh any news on new Zongshen bikes coming to Thailand (They are my favourite Chinese bikes for quality)

You maybe want to try http://www.zongshenthailand.com, the website is obvious new... they probably will do some fine tuning soon (I hope)...

[Richard-BKK]

Anyway.. Richard in summary..

You have been employed by the one of the former Sachs Manufacturing companies (FYM) to try and find a distributor for FYM products in Thailand. Is that correct.

As Fym are not the official holders of the Sachs name. It would seem that every one will be changing names shortly.....

Ok cool. I think i have it now... wonderful.

Apparently some will need to change the name to avoid legal action... but the Sachs MadAss will stay available in Thailand. By the way, I'm not employed by FYM... doesn't FYM make cute little scooters? And I was informed that somebody has registered sachs.co.th (not me, honestly), I'm not sure about what you need to do that... But if I remember it correctly you need to be the trademark holder (So guess we will find out soon enough who is the trademark/name holder)

[mbox]

we know that we will remain to have madass, kikass & newly a x-road here whatever stays in for the Brandname remains to be seen.

The Madass we know from Thailand is actually very admired from other madass owners around the world...for having in addition the nice wheels, and USD Forks.

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[LivinLOS]

Oh any news on new Zongshen bikes coming to Thailand (They are my favourite Chinese bikes for quality)

Saw one in CR.. A motard that looked like a 200 ish size.. Didnt look awful.

The bike had no plate but did have a tax sticker on the rear.

[CMX]

x-road, x-road, x-road 250

When all the dust settles from this matter, I have the feeling that the prevailing interest of those not in a bike business will be, "Where and when can I get my hands on an X-Road??? Who will have made it and how well?" Performance, reliability issues, mods, and so forth.

Have to acknowledge mbox's characterization of interest in better "ass" features being available in Thailand. But these are 125cc models - not as much interest here, where more power seems the prevailing concern.

That is, not very many of our members, as I read entries here, are lusting for 125cc's (or Zongshen 110's). So we wait for the BKK show, just next month, and hope that it is more revealing than last year's. Maybe we'll see a Bootass or Swimsuit model.

Edited February 14, 2011 by CMX

[katabeachbum]

calling a poster lier or commenting on others english language skills is against forum rules. posts removed from view

please keep it siviliced

[Richard-BKK]

So to create a summary..

The Chinese owners of Sachs Bikes are looking for a new distributor in Thailand.

The previous distributor will keep selling motorcycle models, as sold by Sachs, only not with a Sachs brand name. The models distributed by the previous distributor will be a bit different than the models Sachs sells worldwide. The models made by the previous distributor will have different wheels and will not been equipped with Sachs suspension, likely other specification (like engine and other mechanical specifications) will be different as they probably cannot use any patents belonging to Sachs.

I need to say MadAss sold by the previous Thai distributor looks better, but you maybe ask yourself how does the official Sachs MadAss 125 look like...

Germany - http://www.sfm-bikes.de/en/bike.php?bike_id=310

England - http://www.sachsbikes.co.uk/scooter-motorcycle-details.php/Madass-125cc-1/

USA - http://www.moto-scoot.net/new125madass.php

But now you maybe ask yourself if all countries in the world, where they sell the Sachs MadAss 125, look like the models you find on the 3 official Sachs distributor websites – why does the model sold in Thailand by the previous distributor look different?

So I propose that we will send a email to

Zweirad Union Fahrzeugtechnik GmbH

Strawinskystrasse 27

90455 Nürnberg

Bayern

Germany

I cannot publish business related emails (or even any email if I read it right).

The in Germany located company “Zweirad Union Fahrzeugtechnik GmbH” is the owner of a few key trademarks in this discussion and therefore they should be able to answer the question who sells the real MadAss...

As it's obvious that it would not look very convincing if I wrote the email, I propose that Mbox (being a native in German language) and maybe we can find somebody else to send the email... maybe a moderator wants to help to find the truth behind the discussion.

The names Sachs and MadAss are both registered trademarks (for reference you can search http://www.trademarkia.com/)

Did I miss something with my summary?

[mbox]

So to create a summary..

The Chinese owners of Sachs Bikes are looking for a new distributor in Thailand.

The previous distributor will keep selling motorcycle models, as sold by Sachs, only not with a Sachs brand name. The models distributed by the previous distributor will be a bit different than the models Sachs sells worldwide. The models made by the previous distributor will have different wheels and will not been equipped with Sachs suspension, likely other specification (like engine and other mechanical specifications) will be different as they probably cannot use any patents belonging to Sachs.

I need to say MadAss sold by the previous Thai distributor looks better, but you maybe ask yourself how does the official Sachs MadAss 125 look like...

Germany - http://www.sfm-bikes...php?bike_id=310

England - http://www.sachsbike...Madass-125cc-1/

USA - http://www.moto-scoo...ew125madass.php

But now you maybe ask yourself if all countries in the world, where they sell the Sachs MadAss 125, look like the models you find on the 3 official Sachs distributor websites – why does the model sold in Thailand by the previous distributor look different?

So I propose that we will send a email to

Zweirad Union Fahrzeugtechnik GmbH

Strawinskystrasse 27

90455 Nürnberg

Bayern

Germany

I cannot publish business related emails (or even any email if I read it right).

The in Germany located company "Zweirad Union Fahrzeugtechnik GmbH" is the owner of a few key trademarks in this discussion and therefore they should be able to answer the question who sells the real MadAss...

As it's obvious that it would not look very convincing if I wrote the email, I propose that Mbox (being a native in German language) and maybe we can find somebody else to send the email... maybe a moderator wants to help to find the truth behind the discussion.

The names Sachs and MadAss are both registered trademarks (for reference you can search http://www.trademarkia.com/)

Did I miss something with my summary?

Richard,

The original Madass is which one? good question i believe the very first which was released. They didn't have USD forks for instance. I believe the changes on the Thai Madass was made in agreement with Sachs & SFM. You do know that Tiger was having regular visits from Sachs Germany to confirm all is as well. That relation even extended for Tiger making some development on a larger Madass(on the Tiger Factory Tour last March all the participants saw that model)

Tiger has contacted SFM Bikes in germany to get an update as i was in contact with Tiger Motors since that mysterious email from "Sam" .

The reply was from SFM-Bikes Germany: "They are in the process of re-evaluating all the distributors (including FYM)"

Which means you ,me or Sam (from FYM), Tiger Motors don't know for sure until a decision is being made.

When you say "The Chinese owners of Sachs Bikes are looking for a new distributor in Thailand." do you mean FYM or do you mean the actual Owners of Sachs(HK/Chinese investors)

While FYM was connected to one mainshareholder on Sachs but FYM are not the Brandname/Trademark Owners.

I will await for further info from Tiger Motors in that matter.

mbox

[Richard-BKK]

I think it's a good idea we just wait and see what happens. Again, it cannot be beneficial for end-user confident in the product that several companies trying to sell the same looking products using different brand names – with the obvious sales pitch in the retail channel of the other being a copy...

[thaicbr]

"But now you maybe ask yourself if all countries in the world, where they sell the Sachs MadAss 125, look like the models you find on the 3 official Sachs distributor websites – why does the model sold in Thailand by the previous distributor look different?"

You are seeming to imply that the Sachs sold in Thailand are some how copies. Not a very nice thing to imply unless you have in hand details to prove the same.

But anyway.

Ohhh Richard this one is easy.

It is simply the case that WHEN the Sachs MadAss was originally sold here in Thailand IT HAD to have local content and assembly/ manufacture as there was NO free trade agreement in force at that time. Now there is..... Ok now ask me a difficult one.

[Richard-BKK]

If you read the posting from Mbox, you will know that currently nobody knows anything... therefore we just have to wait and see who after Sachs "finishes re-evaluating all the distributors”...is appointed the distribution rights.

Obvious with all the trademarks, the distributor, or licensed producer who doesn't stop production after they been told by the trademark holder to do so …. is manufacturing copies....

Also the Sachs motorcycles currently sold in Thailand are produced with a production licenses in place... So Sachs Bike currently sold in Thailand are NOT copies...

Edited February 15, 2011 by Richard-BKK

[thaicbr]

If you read the posting from Mbox, you will know that currently nobody knows anything... therefore we just have to wait and see who after Sachs "finishes re-evaluating all the distributors”...is appointed the distribution rights.

Obvious with all the trademarks, the distributor, or licensed producer who doesn't stop production after they been told by the trademark holder to do so …. is manufacturing copies....

Also the Sachs motorcycles currently sold in Thailand are produced with a production licenses in place... So Sachs Bike currently sold in Thailand are NOT copies...

Good i'm glad we cleared that up

[LeCharivari]

.........Did I miss something with my summary?

Credibility?

[CMX]

While sophisticated on one level, this discussion about the Sachs name can be confusing.

For it is the name that is at issue. The remaining German interests are involved in using the patented name in such a way to ensure sales and profits (to them). Their "engineering" input is essentially one of corporate lawyers and investors, they sometimes consulting engineers. The notion that the bike is special because it is German is nonsense today, as folks are amending and improving the design, which is not new, and building it entirely far, far, away from Europe, doubtless with lots of local input about sourcing the bits.

Where we are now is only marketing (considered in this instance as part of distribution), perhaps the sleaziest aspect of bringing a product to the consumer, but essential to success. Each party is looking for their maximized profits. We consumers, as suggested by the principle contenders here now, will have to wait until the dust clears. Those who continue to sell a model they've been making may still enjoy success. The "Sex Badass" has a certain ring.

The Sachs name is up for grabs to a distributor. The Sachs bike name winner, or its copies, might even be better, wherever eventually assembled. To me, the name means nostalgia.

Once these bikes are in the field, we can then evaluate their features, prices, and performance. And wait for the 250X-Road. Oh to live in a world free of lawyers, and where Thaibodians meet at a temple in peace.

[mbox]

While sophisticated on one level, this discussion about the Sachs name can be confusing.

For it is the name that is at issue. The remaining German interests are involved in using the patented name in such a way to ensure sales and profits (to them). Their "engineering" input is essentially one of corporate lawyers and investors, they sometimes consulting engineers. The notion that the bike is special because it is German is nonsense today, as folks are amending and improving the design, which is not new, and building it entirely far, far, away from Europe, doubtless with lots of local input about sourcing the bits.

Where we are now is only marketing (considered in this instance as part of distribution), perhaps the sleaziest aspect of bringing a product to the consumer, but essential to success. Each party is looking for their maximized profits. We consumers, as suggested by the principle contenders here now, will have to wait until the dust clears. Those who continue to sell a model they've been making may still enjoy success. The "Sex Badass" has a certain ring.

The Sachs name is up for grabs to a distributor. The Sachs bike name winner, or its copies, might even be better, wherever eventually assembled. To me, the name means nostalgia.

Once these bikes are in the field, we can then evaluate their features, prices, and performance. And wait for the 250X-Road. Oh to live in a world free of lawyers, and where Thaibodians meet at a temple in peace.

CMX,... the Sachs investor group in HK/China employs also Germans probably not in the top management but in positions that have QC observed in China/Asia . Same goes for those Sachs Bikes that are marketed and sold in Europe. The Sachs Bikes design and much of the engineering i would also think that SFM Germany had their hands on in this.

I think it is clear that the Sachs Bikes are not manufactured in Germany. As for the madass being different in Thailand i think that Thaicbr already answered but obviously there are other reasons too . In ways this difference is not really an disadvantage for the Madass buyer - actually i feel it is quite the opposite.

We are diggin now back to parts suppliers of Sachs Bikes which we know is mostly not German. If we diggin up on parts supplier for other well known US, jap or European Manufacturers - it may just give surprises as well?

But then again noone from the other Companies would really bother to reply on Forums either.....

In the meantime Sachs Bikes in Thailand are assemebled/built/sold/serviced/warranted by Tiger/Sachs Motors, Samut Prakarn...if Sachs/SFM would have changed their minds about that, i am sure they would have told Tiger Motors ....but it is currently checked back due to an email from someone who named himself "Mr. Sam from FYM & Sachs Bike "

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[BSJ]

I hope Tiger continue on in the future with some success. They will have a battle soon enough with some of the better Chinese brands.

[mbox]

I hope Tiger continue on in the future with some success. They will have a battle soon enough with some of the better Chinese brands.

There is really no need for concern in this matter about Sachs as it has nothing whatsoever to do with Tigers Market -situation which is stable and strong ( for their size). There are a lot of things they do for others as well ....plus as put on the news (link below) they agreed to cooperate with Yoshimura and will also have new Models on BKK motorshow ... they will launch a new brand with different Bikes as well. This is about as much as info i am allowed to give ....see you at the BKK Motorshow in just a bit more than a month :-)

http://www.tigersachsclub.com/news.html

Mbox

[Richard-BKK]

According to the latest information, from multiple sources (7) the relation (contract) between Tiger Motor Co. Ltd and Sachs Bikes is ended. Official, it ended a month ago, according to some emails (even in German) that Tiger Motor is still producing Sachs Bikes is only fueling the idea that Tiger where/are cheating on the contract they had with Sachs Bikes. Officially they where allowed to produce Sachs Bikes until official parts would run out... But apparently they are ordering more... from ???

According to another email it seems that Tiger Motor Co. Ltd failed get enough dealers nationwide to justify the claimed marketing spending, and sorry my Chinese is not that good so maybe it's they have enough dealers but did not spend enough marking money... but likely they didn't – anybody see some Sachs dealers...???

[Hili]

So this means there wont be any more kikass/ madass for sale in LOS? If yes where i can still get? If i recall theres a shop around sukhumvit 70 or something which used to have some sachs bikes? Maybe ill get a kikass before they get really rare???

[Richard-BKK]

A news release by Tiger Motor Co. Ltd regarding Sachs Bikes...

[Mr.Poko]

Reading the complete discussion, it seems that Richard was right after all...

[mbox]

Reading the complete discussion, it seems that Richard was right after all...

MR. Poko , since , to date, no feedback from Sachs or SFM Germany was made it is still unclear what they wanna do. I think that Tiger will unlike to sell under the brand name "Sachs Bikes" in future . That doesn't mean you can't have a madass,kikass or x-road ...it will just another Brand name on it .

I also got an email from "Sam of FYM" as they seem desperate to sell their products( they guy sure has crap writing skills suggesting he's a primary school dropout- not even a signature 555)...i forwarded this email to Tiger Motors suggesting an official Statement . Which was made shortly after ...it is clearly stating "until the matters between both parties are settled" does not neccesarily mean that things are clear or that anyone is right or wrong ..... nor could "Sam of FYM" bring forward the neccesary paperwork that could proof for allowing him to sell under the Brand Name Sachs ( i asked him for that)

The big loser is FYM...because they not selling, and Sachs because their Brand is no longer visible ...i too may have to think of a new domain name now . But it gives Tiger a much better chance to develop the Madass , kikass, x-road further which they had in mind anyways....previously, such development needed some approval from them(Sachs/SFM) and now they are not being asked anymore...good for Tiger and the Customer .

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Here is the PDK/Yoshimura - Madass 125 (Special Edition):