Ground Rod Can

[doglover]

In oilfiled electrical (Canada) we pounded ground rods leaving the top end of the rod just above grade. We then dug out around the top of the rod and installed a galvanized ground rod can to allow access for inspection of the clamp connection, to keep soil from making direct contact and provide some extra physical protection. The can consisted of an open ended galvanized thin metal cylinder about 12-16" deep and with approx. 10" diameter. It also had a galvanized metal lid with a 1" hole in the centre to allow the ground conductor entry ,I suppose, and to vent moisture (we always brought the ground conductor through the open bottom of the can as it was to be buried).

Crossy's site correctly specifies that a ground rod shall be installed as above (with respect to leaving the clamp connection accessible and visible) but I did not see any mention of appropriate protection, such as the ground can described above. In regards to domestic ground rod (electrode) installs in Thailand it could keep kids from messing about with the connection, or dogs chewing on an insulated ground cable, etc.

So my question is..... What are you folks using for a 'ground can' here in lovely Thailand?

*For a bit of (oilfield) humour... For any green gullable apprentices new to the job they would be instructed to affix the lid of the can snugly and take it and a can of spray paint to the work site. The were told that there were buried live high voltage lines and they were to find them in certain areas by placing the can on their head and when they walked over top of the high voltage line it would make the hair on the back of their neck stand up a bit from the magnetic field. When they felt this they were to spray paint an X on the ground and continue on looking for new cables. Being eager to please they would plop the can on just barely seeing their feet through the bottom of the can and invariably the can would move a bit and they would "feel" this sensation they were waiting for and paint an X on the ground for everyones ammusement. Luckily for me, I entered oilfield electrical as a 3rd year apprentice and had enough sense to avoid this sort of stuff.*

[Crossy]

The one at Mum's place which I installed for the (outdoor) washing machine is in a bit of PVC bog-pipe left over from the construction of the new toilet block with a regular end-cap press fitted. To be honest it's not particularly removable (a screw fit end would be better) but the connection is painted with (orange) acrylic so it should be good for a while.

Neither the UK nor Aussie regs actually require mechanical protection of the type described, just a label stating 'Electrical safety earth, do not remove'.

Meanwhile, MOD apprentices got subject to the usual requests to fetch from stores (depending upon the intelligence of said apprentice), a long weight, elbow grease, left handed spanners (for left handed nuts of course), metric screwdrivers and metric hammers (which exist). All good clean fun Much more fun was to get the poor souls to measure their skin resistance with a Megger, having previously demonstrated with an AVO of course

[Artisi]

Ground rods in Thailand,you must be having a joke (that's other than ex-pat's houses and probably some up-market residences and industrial installations)

In Australia the earth wire is usually clamped to an external water-pipe somewhere convenient (no plastic used, normally copper or galvanised steel) and given a good coat of paint.

[doglover]

PVC of the size you describe is exactly what I had in mind Crossy. As far as CEC regs I cannot say for sure if it is required but specs learned on the job usually are. Many times in oilfield and industrial applications companies take it upon themselves to 'beef up' the required specs, as you well know. In residential applications (when required) we used a ground plate which required the the connection to also be buried along with the plate so I have to wonder about how important it really is that the clamp of a ground rod must be above ground. Although, I think with the ground rod scenario it is all too easy to leave the connection above ground so it makes more sense to do that rather than burying it.

Anyway. I also agree with just installing a cap with no vent (threaded would be most convenient as you mentioned). Does anyone disagree with that? If so, why? Does anyone have a better idea than the PVC homemade "ground can"? Is there a commercially available ground can?

***I understand where you're coming from Artisi (although I know it's with humour). My wife cannot understand why I am preoccupied with this useless stuff as the lights work already! And my ground rod clamp has a few coats of acrylic paint. The ground can is mainly to save my toes when I am watering the lawn and grass in my flip/flops but comes in handy for other reasons as well***

[doglover]

By the way.... I am having trouble finding a picture of a skyhook on the internet that I will need for an upcoming project. If someone has, or can find a pic and post it would be most grateful!

[haveaniceday]

I can't say I have noticed any kind of protection on any ground rods I have seen, not that I have ever thought about it.

Really I should go take a look at my rod in the morning, kind of forgotten about it..

Any of you guys know of any simple test, I don't have any meters or anything to make sure the place is still grounded?

[doglover]

I can't say I have noticed any kind of protection on any ground rods I have seen, not that I have ever thought about it.

Really I should go take a look at my rod in the morning, kind of forgotten about it..

Any of you guys know of any simple test, I don't have any meters or anything to make sure the place is still grounded?

And in Thailand no less.......... !

To keep this thread on target (although I suspect it is dead in the water) I will re-direct you (also suspect) to an oldie but a goodie on the subject of verifying proper grounding. Not the most informative thread on the subject, but certainly the most entertaining (with all do respect to the posters within).

EDIT - Would it help if I posted the link? http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/120881-electric-question/

Edited March 30, 2011 by doglover

[Artisi]

doglover, if it is only to protect your little pinkies then anything you consider workable should be ok. I think Crossy's pvc pipe and pushed on end-cap is more than sufficent - you can always use a bit of brute force to tap the end-cap off the pipe as and when needed.

Attached a picture of Skyhooks.

[powderpuff]

In the oilfield we tell the newbies to go find a "left hand monkey wrench" which is in a lyric to a Grateful dead song.

For non Americans a "monkey wrench" is a pipe wrench. In reality there are no left & right.

Thai monkey wrench

[doglover]

doglover, if it is only to protect your little pinkies then anything you consider workable should be ok. I think Crossy's pvc pipe and pushed on end-cap is more than sufficent - you can always use a bit of brute force to tap the end-cap off the pipe as and when needed.

Attached a picture of Skyhooks.

Thanks for the pic Artisi, I figured someone would give me the runaround . And yes the pvc "ground can" will certainly protect my toesies. Was just trying to get an idea if/what the electricians on TV are using in Thailand for a "ground can". And maybe....just maybe....get some kind of a standard established that may appear on someones excellent site. But being that it is not required in the UK or Aussie regs (surprisingly) I don't think this will go anywhere beyond protecting my toes....

EDIT non-electricians "ground cans" and thoughts also welcome, as always

Edited March 31, 2011 by doglover

[InterestedObserver]

And maybe....just maybe....get some kind of a standard established that may appear on someones excellent site.

It is the consensus of opinion on ThaiVisa Forum that residential electrical standards do not exist in Thailand, at least nobody has been able to produce a copy of said standard..

[Crossy]

EDIT - Would it help if I posted the link? http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/120881-electric-question/

Hmmm, should I thank you (or suspend you) for digging that one up, a couple of beer powered posts from myself

Sadly at least two of the more useful posters in that thread went and got themselves banned from TV (for reasons which we cannot go into here but not related to the DIY forum).

[doglover]

Sorry, couldn't help myself . It seemed like such good humour at the time (had just finished a beer myself). I wondered how wise it was today though (if you were too take it the wrong way) as I'll most certainly be asking more electrical questions in the future.... :jap:

[David006]

EDIT - Would it help if I posted the link? http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/120881-electric-question/

Hmmm, should I thank you (or suspend you) for digging that one up, a couple of beer powered posts from myself

Sadly at least two of the more useful posters in that thread went and got themselves banned from TV (for reasons which we cannot go into here but not related to the DIY forum).

555 that link to 2007 discussion was quite entertaining..thought you all were gonna scratch each others eyes out...closet electricians 555 ..good one!! So much for flashing your TV "tin star" about while under the influence...

Re Ground can...<deleted> never heard or seen that before (maybe led a sheltered life in telecom industry) my house ground is someplace under the concrete apron around the house added after I pounded the rod..so don't stub my toes ...I do bang my head on the wifes orchid hanging pots and trip over the dogs and piles of flip flops outside the door nearly everyday though...

Talking of pvc pipe end caps..have not been able to find screw in ones atleast not for larger dia pipe.(.you know the ones to make fishing rod cases)strangely though have seen the female part....?

It is a sad fact of life that no matter how many certificates and years of training some people have they still can be inept and careless...had an "electrician" leave off roof tiles after adding a new breaker to our external domestic box in Melbourne.( would have done it myself except for a wanke_r of a neighbour who deemed it his civic duty to threaten to dob me in).had to get up on the <deleted> roof in the pissing rain..never did understand why the domestic panels are on the outside walls in Oz?

enough babbling...

Seems to me there might be room on TV for a thread re DIY anecdotes... could be entertaining...bet you've got few...

[doglover]

I do bang my head on the wifes orchid hanging pots and trip over the dogs and piles of flip flops outside the door nearly everyday though...

Thanks for the laugh David!

It is a sad fact of life that no matter how many certificates and years of training some people have they still can be inept and careless...had an "electrician" leave off roof tiles after adding a new breaker to our external domestic box in Melbourne.( would have done it myself except for a wanke_r of a neighbour who deemed it his civic duty to threaten to dob me in).had to get up on the <deleted> roof in the pissing rain..never did understand why the domestic panels are on the outside walls in Oz?

Certainly standard practice to mount the electrical panel on an outside wall, but on the exterior? Really? No ground cans and consumer units on building exteriors.... Starting to make the land of weird electrics (North America) look kinda normal...

[Lickey]

About 3 years ago, mrs was getting shocks off the electric/gas oven & hob, i pulled it out and found the earth lead still coiled up on the back, Bought a 2ft copper earth rod with a bolt as a wire clamp, drilled the floor behind the cooker, through about 6in concrete, banged the rod home, attached the lead, and covered in a heavy water pump grease, poured about half gallon of water down the side of the rod to help with earthing, and its been fine, I would think that the heavy grease is good for outside use also, nothing short of a high pressure steam clean will shift it..

[doglover]

About 3 years ago, mrs was getting shocks off the electric/gas oven & hob, i pulled it out and found the earth lead still coiled up on the back, Bought a 2ft copper earth rod with a bolt as a wire clamp, drilled the floor behind the cooker, through about 6in concrete, banged the rod home, attached the lead, and covered in a heavy water pump grease, poured about half gallon of water down the side of the rod to help with earthing, and its been fine, I would think that the heavy grease is good for outside use also, nothing short of a high pressure steam clean will shift it..

Gotta luv it when a mechanic does his own electrical . It is certainly true that your version of a ground rod install is much better than the leaky appliance draining through the Mrs.... But with a fault currrent it may not be up to snuff. Also, heavy duty grease may be better than nothing to coat the connection of the ground wire to the ground rod but one should really be using acrylic paint which is readily available. I would suggest that if a DIYer wants to install any sort of grounding system that they refer to Crossy's site beforehand, for proper installation procedures.

http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring/earthing.html

[David006]

About 3 years ago, mrs was getting shocks off the electric/gas oven & hob, i pulled it out and found the earth lead still coiled up on the back, Bought a 2ft copper earth rod with a bolt as a wire clamp, drilled the floor behind the cooker, through about 6in concrete, banged the rod home, attached the lead, and covered in a heavy water pump grease, poured about half gallon of water down the side of the rod to help with earthing, and its been fine, I would think that the heavy grease is good for outside use also, nothing short of a high pressure steam clean will shift it..

Gotta luv it when a mechanic does his own electrical . It is certainly true that your version of a ground rod install is much better than the leaky appliance draining through the Mrs.... But with a fault currrent it may not be up to snuff. Also, heavy duty grease may be better than nothing to coat the connection of the ground wire to the ground rod but one should really be using acrylic paint which is readily available. I would suggest that if a DIYer wants to install any sort of grounding system that they refer to Crossy's site beforehand, for proper installation procedures.

http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring/earthing.html

Standard "grease" is Vaseline is it not .atleast that what we used to connect bolted bus bar joints in the distant past...ah but things change I guess...

not electric stuff but..

all the LPG gas cylinders "next" to the appliances here in LOS!! Put mine outside below kitchen and connected a long H Pressure pipe AND a "drain" under counter area through 6" concrete...little old toppie in hardware store where I bought the high pressure pipe said I should not use more than 1 metre...lol. Nearly blew up my 1 month old sailboat in Canada 'cos they had overtightened the brass connecting gland to the stove and it had split...luckily split on up side and just caught light from stove and burned a bit o' teak....still had pancakes and back bacon for brekky eh!.....VERY paranoid about LPG these days..

[Lickey]

Ground rods in Thailand,you must be having a joke (that's other than ex-pat's houses and probably some up-market residences and industrial installations)

In Australia the earth wire is usually clamped to an external water-pipe somewhere convenient (no plastic used, normally copper or galvanised steel) and given a good coat of paint.

Pretty sure this practise was outlawed in the early 70s in UK, as alkathene water pipe was used as a delivery into the house, but if you have a steel pipe going into the earth, perhaps ok, anybody want to confirm this?

[powderpuff]

If you're using 4 inch sewer pipe (Blue PVC) you don't really need a threaded cap. Just find a blind (blanking) cap & slide it on. It will be plenty tight/ I was thinking to drill a hole in the side of the PVC pipe for the ground wire to exit.

I'll get a picture from my house to give you guys a laugh.

Like the gentleman above said my original ground rod is buried under the kitchen floor under concrete & tile. Near to my load center. That was before I started reading here 5 6 years ago.

[Crossy]

Agreed PP ^^^, my issue with the press-on blank is that it's actually too tight, I can't get it off.

[electau]

The main earth electrode should be 12.7mm copper clad steel and the connection to the main earth conductor should be protected by metallic paint. Length of electrode 1.8metres. This is the minimum requirements for AS3000.The electrode should be installed where exposed to the weather and not encased in concrete.

Edited April 19, 2011 by electau

[electau]

Ground rods in Thailand,you must be having a joke (that's other than ex-pat's houses and probably some up-market residences and industrial installations)

In Australia the earth wire is usually clamped to an external water-pipe somewhere convenient (no plastic used, normally copper or galvanised steel) and given a good coat of paint.

An electrode had been made mandatory under AS3000 since 1976. the metallic water pipe is equipotentially bonded to the main earth.

[powderpuff]

As promised. This is a picture of my second ground stake. I have an open ditch that runs around 2 sides of the house. The 2 white wires go to the living room for the hi-fi home theater rig. The green wire goes upstairs to an aircon. The one in the living room is tied into my main Earth which is buried under the kitchen floor. I did that when I was young & stupid & before this forum came along. But Crossy I can see how a piece of 4 inch PVC & a 4 inch PVC blind cap would make an excellent "box" just drill a hole in the side of the pipe for the wire to exit, maybe silicone that to keep the critters out. You could sand inside & outside if the fit is too tight. For mine I sourced a long bit of suitable size for my Bosch SDS rotary hammer & I drilled concrete till I hit soil. Then I pounded the stake in. Clamped it & happy camper.

Not looking for a critique. I know some of you excel at ripping up those you feel are inferior to you. At your house you can build it any way you like. This is my house & it does the intended purpose.

[canopy]

I understand you don't care so this post is for the benefit of others so please stop reading here, thank you.

--------------

Please be aware the above ground is not safe. This is not a flame, but a safety warning. Improper grounds in Thailand are common and in some cases deadly which is in the news too often. A ground seems a simple thing, but in each case there are dozens of decisions made, each of which can be done the right way or the wrong way that one must be aware of. If you wish to have a safe ground, follow trusted practices and specifications and not contraptions made up arbitrarily by yourself, people on forums or local electricians.

Edited April 29, 2011 by canopy

[electau]

A galvanised star picket or a length of 20mm ID galvanised water pipe min. can be used as an earth electrode. It is an option that can be used.

[powderpuff]

I prefer a copper clad steel earthing rod.

A galvanized water pipe will eventually rust away to nothing.

[powderpuff]

Please be aware the above ground is not safe.

I disagree.

Who are you & where did you come from?

I will wait for Crossy to pass judgement. Thanks ever so much.

[powderpuff]

My photograph was for my friend, Canadian & electrician doglover.

[wpcoe]

Please be aware the above ground is not safe. This is not a flame, but a safety warning. Improper grounds in Thailand are common and in some cases deadly which is in the news too often. A ground seems a simple thing, but in each case there are dozens of decisions made, each of which can be done the right way or the wrong way that one must be aware of. If you wish to have a safe ground, follow trusted practices and specifications and not contraptions made up arbitrarily by yourself, people on forums or local electricians.

For a willing-to-learn amateur such as myself, can you explain *why* the above ground is not safe?