Exact Cause Of Chiang Mai Hotel Deaths May Be Impossible To Find: Health Official

[OZEMADE]

The Bangkok Post's editorial department appears to experiencing a bad bout of multiple personality disorder. After recently pulling the FDA warning about the use of chlorpyrifos in bedrooms, today they publish an editorial which says:

"The deaths of the seven people, four of whom stayed at the same hotel, the Downtown Inn, and two of whom had used that hotel's facilities, are tragic any way you look at it, but it is conceivable that something similar could happen anywhere in the world. What is potentially so harmful to Thailand's image and well-earned reputation as a relatively safe vacation spot is the perception that the hotel's owner and the authorities are not doing all they can to prevent similar tragedies and to get to the bottom of the mystery. Although it is possible that the deaths are unrelated, it is irresponsible to assume that it is all just coincidence, as has been the official line from the start.

Last week, evidence was presented on the New Zealand TV3 programme 60 Minutes that the insecticide chlorpyrifos may have been responsible for the deaths, as traces of the chemical were found in rooms at the Downtown Inn in which four of the deceased stayed in February, even after the rooms had been cleaned routinely by hotel staff. On the programme, United Nations chemical expert Ron McDowall gave strong support to the idea that the organophosphate chlorpyrifos is a prime suspect.

A Bangkok Post reporter was told last week that the hotel floor where three of the victims stayed has been closed, but that is not enough. The entire hotel should be closed immediately, voluntarily by the owner or at the insistence of the authorities, and it should be done with fanfare, sending a message that public health is the first priority. Then a well-organised and no-holds-barred investigation comprising local, national and possibly international health and forensic experts should be convened to put this deadly mystery to rest." [my bolding]

http://www.bangkokpo...l-in-chiang-mai

I agree close the bloody hotel down until the results come back. If there is a problem it will probably have saved some more lives. Then they can fix it or burn it down. I would never stay there, EVER.

Edited May 15, 2011 by OZEMADE

[The Snark]

Just an observation.

While myocaditis may have been the cause of some of these deaths, myocarditis in turn almost certainly has to caused by something. It is not normally a developed heart disease like congestive heart failure (artherosclerosis). Myocarditis is most commonly caused by infection from a virus, a bacterial infection, or through toxins.

Sudden death from myocarditis, commonly referred to as a 'heart attack', without an underlying invasive cause is extremely rare. What needs to be determined is the cause of the condition. Virus, bacteria, toxemia or trauma such as electric shock. Simply stating this was the cause of the majority of these deaths does not explain the likely underlying cause. Basic pathology would probably rule out a virus as the cause as the incubation period takes a given amount of time. Trauma could also be ruled out as there are normally obvious indicators. This leaves bacteria or toxins which is where the New Zealand and other investigations are looking.

Possibilities:

-An unidentified virus. Can be extremely difficult or even impossible to identify. There are many diseases that have viruses as their cause which have been known for years but have yet to be identified.

-A pathogen. Competent pathological investigation can often identify an infective bacteria. Extensive laboratory analysis would be required.

-A toxin. Unlikely as traces of the poison would normally be found in body tissue or in the urinary tract, providing an autopsy specifically searches for it.

You mean viruses and bacteria like those which probably live in this kitchen, typical for a village ?

Hygiene in Thailand is quite low. Our intestines have many immune system cells, but people who have never been exposed to certain viruses or bacteria can come into sudden catastrophic contact with them and be in big trouble.

Though the people who actually live here probably never even get diarrhea from the same stuff. I visited this place pictured and found that seafood residue was hardly even washed out of the washing-up corner, and seafood is always the first thing suspected as a cause for food poisoning.

A few things need to be clarified. Yes, that kitchen would supply a path lab enough samples to keep itself occupied for a year or two. However, it isn't always straight forwards. As example, in a 'clean' hospital setting we had three cases of bacterial infection. The source, a whirlpool therapy bath was determined the cause. 10 days later, the lab cultures came back ambiguous and had to be repeated. The lab finally identified pseudomonas after a total of 22 days of investigation. Keep in mind, this was in an environment that was washed with sterilizing agents after each patient used it, and the entire room once every 24 hours. So, identifying a simple bacteria is not all that easy. In this instance, it was a well known and readily identified bacteria. Now take Legionella, the cause of Legionaries disease. It was first cultured in July but was not isolated and given it's own identification until January, 7 months later.

Then, in the case of viruses, identification is usually much more difficult. A good example would be the HIV virus which is now known to be active around 1950 but was not properly identified and classified until 1981.

What many may find as startling is it is estimated that only about 15%, FIFTEEN PERCENT, of the tropical infectious diseases have been properly identified.

[Lizard2010]

I'm sure certain authorities, such as Health Department, are very concerned and have been working hard, however it seems to have been countered by the usual Asian Businessman attempt to silence things, but unfortunately farangs are involved and though you can persuade the local police to give you a clean bill of health, you can't persuade the world that it was all a co-incidental accident. Thus it's backfired and the negative publicity has amplified as New Zealand TV programs etc keep the story alive. There's been no more deaths since late March, the bug or whatever is probably now gone, it appears to be one of those perplexing cases where several plausible theories are inconclusive to account for the random nature of deaths, therefore the possibility of several factors converging.

All, the same it's a lesson (not) learnt, in how not to deal with the situation. Downtown Inn is (I believe) owned by the same guy as the Empress, who was formerly president of the Chiang Mai Hotelier Assoc. - and the reaction to this was very similar to that of the Chiang Mai haze syndrome, where they think first of minimising the impact to business by blocking the health advisories from local authorities, thereby placing the public at further risk.

Curiously there isn't a single comment about the deaths on TripAdvisor for this hotel. But I've seen evidence that tourism has been significantly affected for Chiang Mai as a result of all this.

I wrote a review about the Down Town Inn, Chiang Mai on the TripAdvisor website about a month ago. I informed them of the number of deaths that had occurred there, provided a link to the news article on ThaiVisa.com and I think I may have even copied the article. I checked for a few weeks but to my knowledge my review / warning was never published. I don't believe that multiple negative reviews about the individual hotel would affect the rest of the businesses in Chiang Mai and it is probably the only way to get them to take action about the deaths. I sure would want to know if the hotel I was planning to stay at had had so many unexplained deaths. I guess that TripAdvisor.com doesn't really care about giving honest advise to the traveling public after all.

I agree with you.

Tripadvisor is very biased.

All they seem to care about is having Their Expert TripAdvisor constantly put a 1 line about other peoples trips.

They have never worried about the Bangkok Riots and is it safe to go to Thailand.

They have been very selective on the Chiang Mai deaths.

I guess we were lucky when we stayed there for the 1st death and we left on the morning of the second death.

We will never stay at the Hotel again.

Our life is worth more that the savings we would have received by not staying att eh hotel. :jap:

[Lizard2010]

The Bangkok Post's editorial department appears to experiencing a bad bout of multiple personality disorder. After recently pulling the FDA warning about the use of chlorpyrifos in bedrooms, today they publish an editorial which says:

"The deaths of the seven people, four of whom stayed at the same hotel, the Downtown Inn, and two of whom had used that hotel's facilities, are tragic any way you look at it, but it is conceivable that something similar could happen anywhere in the world. What is potentially so harmful to Thailand's image and well-earned reputation as a relatively safe vacation spot is the perception that the hotel's owner and the authorities are not doing all they can to prevent similar tragedies and to get to the bottom of the mystery. Although it is possible that the deaths are unrelated, it is irresponsible to assume that it is all just coincidence, as has been the official line from the start.

Last week, evidence was presented on the New Zealand TV3 programme 60 Minutes that the insecticide chlorpyrifos may have been responsible for the deaths, as traces of the chemical were found in rooms at the Downtown Inn in which four of the deceased stayed in February, even after the rooms had been cleaned routinely by hotel staff. On the programme, United Nations chemical expert Ron McDowall gave strong support to the idea that the organophosphate chlorpyrifos is a prime suspect.

A Bangkok Post reporter was told last week that the hotel floor where three of the victims stayed has been closed, but that is not enough. The entire hotel should be closed immediately, voluntarily by the owner or at the insistence of the authorities, and it should be done with fanfare, sending a message that public health is the first priority. Then a well-organised and no-holds-barred investigation comprising local, national and possibly international health and forensic experts should be convened to put this deadly mystery to rest." [my bolding]

http://www.bangkokpo...l-in-chiang-mai

I agree close the bloody hotel down until the results come back. If there is a problem it will probably have saved some more lives. Then they can fix it or burn it down. I would never stay there, EVER.

We have stayed there many times.

But will NEVER stay there again our health is more important. :jap:

[ginjag]

The Bangkok Post's editorial department appears to experiencing a bad bout of multiple personality disorder. After recently pulling the FDA warning about the use of chlorpyrifos in bedrooms, today they publish an editorial which says:

"The deaths of the seven people, four of whom stayed at the same hotel, the Downtown Inn, and two of whom had used that hotel's facilities, are tragic any way you look at it, but it is conceivable that something similar could happen anywhere in the world. What is potentially so harmful to Thailand's image and well-earned reputation as a relatively safe vacation spot is the perception that the hotel's owner and the authorities are not doing all they can to prevent similar tragedies and to get to the bottom of the mystery. Although it is possible that the deaths are unrelated, it is irresponsible to assume that it is all just coincidence, as has been the official line from the start.

Last week, evidence was presented on the New Zealand TV3 programme 60 Minutes that the insecticide chlorpyrifos may have been responsible for the deaths, as traces of the chemical were found in rooms at the Downtown Inn in which four of the deceased stayed in February, even after the rooms had been cleaned routinely by hotel staff. On the programme, United Nations chemical expert Ron McDowall gave strong support to the idea that the organophosphate chlorpyrifos is a prime suspect.

A Bangkok Post reporter was told last week that the hotel floor where three of the victims stayed has been closed, but that is not enough. The entire hotel should be closed immediately, voluntarily by the owner or at the insistence of the authorities, and it should be done with fanfare, sending a message that public health is the first priority. Then a well-organised and no-holds-barred investigation comprising local, national and possibly international health and forensic experts should be convened to put this deadly mystery to rest." [my bolding]

http://www.bangkokpo...l-in-chiang-mai

I agree close the bloody hotel down until the results come back. If there is a problem it will probably have saved some more lives. Then they can fix it or burn it down. I would never stay there, EVER.

We have stayed there many times.

But will NEVER stay there again our health is more important. :jap:

There are a few people who can never stay there again. The hotel has sort of sister hotels that were mentioned in earlier posts, and whatever or IF EVER they find the cause, it would be nice to know what PERIODIC cleaning procedures are followed. In good hotels( back of house management) usually will carry out these duties. If the management do NOT have this cleaning rota- hence fatalities can occur, putting it down to neglect

[Gonzo the Face]

I have read , repeatedly, with interest of the samples that were sent to Japan and the US for lab exam.

Just a question.... Were they ever really sent or is this just a line one person stated and many others have twisted and repeated.

Does anyone recall where they were sent and has there been any comment from anyone at these labs? Could we be waiting for something that these "labs" don't know they have or has been sent to them?

Not meaning to sound paranoid, but there is some very strange crap flying around out there, so maybe this is just another side step, until somebody admits the samples were not sent , or they were lost, or the "I thought you sent them, I didn't send them", excuse comes out.

[Lizard2010]

I have read , repeatedly, with interest of the samples that were sent to Japan and the US for lab exam.

Just a question.... Were they ever really sent or is this just a line one person stated and many others have twisted and repeated.

Does anyone recall where they were sent and has there been any comment from anyone at these labs? Could we be waiting for something that these "labs" don't know they have or has been sent to them?

Not meaning to sound paranoid, but there is some very strange crap flying around out there, so maybe this is just another side step, until somebody admits the samples were not sent , or they were lost, or the "I thought you sent them, I didn't send them", excuse comes out.

Good observation.

Time will tell

[dunkin2012]

"I thought you sent them, I didn't send them", excuse comes out.

Good observation.

Time will tell

When the lab results from Osaka and the states will arrive?

I am waitin' patiently to hear what the next show of this Thai-Soap thing can be bullshit about. Don't they realize that they are playing with human lives? Not their Chiang mai Zoo.

Edited May 17, 2011 by dunkin2012

[Lizard2010]

"I thought you sent them, I didn't send them", excuse comes out.

Good observation.

Time will tell

When the lab results from Osaka and the states will arrive?

I am waitin' patiently to hear what the next show of this Thai-Soap thing can be bullshit about. Don't they realize that they are playing with human lives? Not their Chiang mai Zoo.

Maybe they forgot to send them or they got lost in the mail

Edited May 17, 2011 by Lizard2010

[The Snark]

Carbamates? New kettle of fish? Find who is selling, marketing, or substituting an ultra deadly into things?

[zippydedodah]

while the Bangkok Post won't allow direct quotes... i believe we can quote other news sites, like monsters and critics

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/health/news/article_1640637.php/Experts-suspect-pest-control-chemical-caused-tourists-deaths

so now, they are saying that it is not bed bug spray, but they are leaning towards some kind of pesticide... which is a lot better than a "coincidence".

This just may be one of those cases where the truth will prevail... but i ain't betting my pension on it!

[Crushdepth]

Can't find or don't want to find the cause? No problem. SHUT IT DOWN.

[chuang]

This is Thailand..anything can happen....

[animatic]

This is Thailand..anything can happen....

Including ignoring the World Health Organizations findings,

since they are farangs and don't under stand how Thais do things....

[The Snark]

Ermmmm... To spell out a possibility, in the land of bogus copies and pirating etc. it is always possible that someone is marketing a highly restricted or banned insecticide under a legit acceptable label. That would place the local authorities in an odd bind and a very complex mess arises. Follow this one.

The authorities are well known to turn a blind eye to the piracy among other things, but let us toss out the hypothesis that your common over the counter well known bug zap spray was really loaded with parathion or similar. Well, if word of that got out they could kiss tourism goodbye. Then you have an entity like WHO which is normally obligated to make their findings public if a significant health hazard has been identified.

Then we have deadly chemicals like the aforementioned that can kill so fast they don't accumulate in body tissues and are extremely hard to identify. However, some of these chemicals can cause months or even years long maladies. (Parathion can cause loss of vision, blinding headaches and dizziness for years).

And so, the authorities are walking a tightrope. Ignore, the million pound sh*thammer may come down kersplat as the chemical is identified. Scapegoat somebody will raise suspicions as there is no way to assure such an incident won't reoccur. Head in sand approach and someone does identify a bad news chemical, they get painted black and put on various watch lists.

It certainly looks like a narsty little dilemma to me.

[zippydedodah]

Ermmmm... To spell out a possibility, in the land of bogus copies and pirating etc. it is always possible that someone is marketing a highly restricted or banned insecticide under a legit acceptable label. That would place the local authorities in an odd bind and a very complex mess arises. Follow this one.

The authorities are well known to turn a blind eye to the piracy among other things, but let us toss out the hypothesis that your common over the counter well known bug zap spray was really loaded with parathion or similar. Well, if word of that got out they could kiss tourism goodbye. Then you have an entity like WHO which is normally obligated to make their findings public if a significant health hazard has been identified.

Then we have deadly chemicals like the aforementioned that can kill so fast they don't accumulate in body tissues and are extremely hard to identify. However, some of these chemicals can cause months or even years long maladies. (Parathion can cause loss of vision, blinding headaches and dizziness for years).

And so, the authorities are walking a tightrope. Ignore, the million pound sh*thammer may come down kersplat as the chemical is identified. Scapegoat somebody will raise suspicions as there is no way to assure such an incident won't reoccur. Head in sand approach and someone does identify a bad news chemical, they get painted black and put on various watch lists.

It certainly looks like a narsty little dilemma to me.

I like the way you think! hahahaha...

[swillowbee]

Can't find or don't want to find the cause? No problem. SHUT IT DOWN.

... of course that is not going to happen.

... most contributors to the forum seem as Thai residents, and probably understanding of the values of the culture in which we live ... try this one out for size:

... international agencies identify with high certainty the precise cause of the deaths, different from what the Royal Thai Police investigators conclude (or, fail to conclude) ... the hotel owner, being a former politician and still relevant, is protected by government investigators, the international agencies reports are poo-pooed, and the hotel owner is absolved of any culpability ... the "good name" of Chiang Mai the Governor is so worried about is pronounced lilly white for the benefit of the Thais ... the farang are blamed for unfairly besmirching the good reputation of Thailand ... end of the story (locally).

... through the Internet and the international media, travellers to Thailand become a little bit more aware of what Thailand really is, despite the very thin veneer that conceals this country's 3rd world reality ... with this sad story, and the scores and scores of others, just as abominable, international travellers will eventually piece together a more informed picture of Thailand ... they will know the truth to which Thais are so remarkably capable of closing their eyes, or soullessly denying.

... so, c'mon, we know how this will end, right? ... this is their country.

Edited May 22, 2011 by swillowbee

[Crushdepth]

I agree nothing will happen. Which is a shame (never mind the morality of it!), because the 'economic damage' of shutting down that hotel is probably trivial compared to the wider tourism industry.

One more death - Chiang Mai tourism is toast. The international media will hang them high.

[dunkin2012]

smiling means "Apologies, We dunno what's goin' on".

[Lizard2010]

Has anyone been to the Main Hotel Website.

Empress Hotel

The Downtown Inn Hotel has been taken off there website.

I wonder why!

[dunkin2012]

Has anyone been to the Main Hotel Website.

Empress Hotel

The Downtown Inn Hotel has been taken off there website.

I wonder why!

what's that?

the hotel's website is still here

[Lizard2010]

Has anyone been to the Main Hotel Website.

Empress Hotel

The Downtown Inn Hotel has been taken off there website.

I wonder why!

what's that?

the hotel's website is still here

I think the Empress wants to distance itself from the Downtown

[dunkin2012]

Has anyone been to the Main Hotel Website.

Empress Hotel

The Downtown Inn Hotel has been taken off there website.

I wonder why!

what's that?

the hotel's website is still here

I think the Empress wants to distance itself from the Downtown

do you mean they are deserting Downtown Inn?

they belong to the same owner.

[swillowbee]

Has anyone been to the Main Hotel Website.

Empress Hotel

The Downtown Inn Hotel has been taken off there website.

I wonder why!

what's that?

the hotel's website is still here

I think the Empress wants to distance itself from the Downtown

do you mean they are deserting Downtown Inn?

they belong to the same owner.

... just a matter of time before the Thai political family that owns The Downtown Inn changes the name of the hotel, and then commences a campaign to evade any association with the whole compromised Royal Thai Police investigation.

... eyes closed tightly ... head turned away ... denial ... denial ... denial ... they will never, ever accept responsibility, an act contrary to all Thai customs and values.

[dunkin2012]

Has anyone been to the Main Hotel Website.

Empress Hotel

The Downtown Inn Hotel has been taken off there website.

I wonder why!

what's that?

the hotel's website is still here

I think the Empress wants to distance itself from the Downtown

do you mean they are deserting Downtown Inn?

they belong to the same owner.

... just a matter of time before the Thai political family that owns The Downtown Inn changes the name of the hotel, and then commences a campaign to evade any association with the whole compromised Royal Thai Police investigation.

... eyes closed tightly ... head turned away ... denial ... denial ... denial ... they will never, ever accept responsibility, an act contrary to all Thai customs and values.

Can't let it just go.

[Lizard2010]

Has anyone been to the Main Hotel Website.

Empress Hotel

The Downtown Inn Hotel has been taken off there website.

I wonder why!

what's that?

the hotel's website is still here

I think the Empress wants to distance itself from the Downtown

do you mean they are deserting Downtown Inn?

they belong to the same owner.

... just a matter of time before the Thai political family that owns The Downtown Inn changes the name of the hotel, and then commences a campaign to evade any association with the whole compromised Royal Thai Police investigation.

... eyes closed tightly ... head turned away ... denial ... denial ... denial ... they will never, ever accept responsibility, an act contrary to all Thai customs and values.

Can't let it just go.

Why not

People have died and now one cares.

We may never know what happened.

People need to be reminded as this is bad for anyone wanting to stay at the Hotel.

[dunkin2012]

Why not

People have died and now one cares.

We may never know what happened.

People need to be reminded as this is bad for anyone wanting to stay at the Hotel.

CM in my imagination is this.

not these

Edited May 24, 2011 by dunkin2012

[webfact]

UPDATE

Thai Health Ministry speaks regarding Chiang Mai Downtown Inn Deaths

Follow this link:

[yumidesign]

Has anyone been to the Main Hotel Website.

Empress Hotel

The Downtown Inn Hotel has been taken off there website.

I wonder why!

i just checked downtown inn web site and for 1250 tbt you can put in a booking request for stay may 31 (dicing with death option was not included}

[ratcliffe]

<br />

<br />

<br /> "I thought you sent them, I didn't send them", excuse comes out.<br />

<br />Good observation.<br />Time will tell <img src='http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /><br />

<br />When the lab results from Osaka and the states will arrive?<br />I am waitin' patiently to hear what the next show of this Thai-Soap thing can be bullshit about.<img src='http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/mad.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />    Don't they realize that they are playing with human lives? Not their Chiang mai Zoo.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Me too.....and still waiting...............