Irony And Its Usage

[Sir Burr]

You see, we Germans are trained to think logically in a rectilinear sort of way.

Do you mean rectum-linear? It's the basis for the whole Germanic sense of humour.

[deus ex machina]

maestro: 2. Many forum members are not native English speakers and it is rather difficult to understand irony in a language other than one’s one.

As a member of the German community, I should say that renderings of dry British humour are much appreciated. I apologise for not always being able to instantly grasp such exalted levels of humour, especially if they contain allusions to British TV personages and other local peculiarities.

You see, we Germans are trained to think logically in a rectilinear sort of way. Like the Americans we prefer to build our roads straight rather than with many curves (and we also drive on the proper side of these roads). The high level of abstraction and the twisted path of thought required to interpret ironical messages (and to drive on the left side of the road) runs somewhat against our cultural grain.

Yet, for the purpose of exhanging humorous communication with our friends across the channel, it would be nice if the British members could perhaps post some instructions on how to properly construct sentences that contain British humour. I am thinking along the lines of a "British humour user manual - its construction and application".

If possible, these instructions should avoid jokes about Yanks and other nations, because -as we all know- it is a very bad thing to ridicule other cultures, unless they are French.

Thank You.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Excellent post, mon brave.

[Sir Burr]

Like the Americans we prefer to build our roads straight rather than with many curves (and we also drive on the proper side of these roads).

Just as a side issue, we Brits drive on the left side (the proper side) because of the Romans. It leaves your right hand free to defend yourself if on foot, or, on horse-back.

You continentals drive on the right-hand side (not the proper side) due to Monsieur Napoleon Bonaparte. He decreed it.

Edited October 10, 2005 by Sir Burr

[Phil B]

I think x-pat said it best but since i am a yank he is the only one i can understand. The irish, english, and yanks do not speak the same language and i think a lot is lost in the translation. Maybe us yanks could understand if we read irony for idiots.

[Jai Dee]

I take your point but festooning posts with enlightening emoticons, in lieu of punctuation and accurate expression, strikes me as being somewhat lazy and perhaps a little patronising to the reader.Nevertheless, I can see its value in aiding comprehension in the more obtuse.

What a pompous ass you are...

Having read all of your 35 posts to date, you don't really have much to say at all, except of course to try to put people down... and to think I had a good chuckle over one of your previous posts this morning.

Where are you from and what has made you so bitter?

Irony? No... pompousity (sp?) in your case.

/Edit - your apology in the OP should be applied to the majority of posts you've made on the Forum to date.

Edited October 10, 2005 by Jai Dee

[fxm88]

I appreciate that some nationals, for example, North Americans, may have some difficulty in grasping the idea of it in the same way that sarcasm similarly seems to fly over their heads,but are other folk similarly affected?

Wow! Who have you been hanging out with? Americans, the younger generations anyways, are some of the most sarcastic people around. So much so that it gets quite boring after a while. When I first came to Thailand it was so refreshing to be away from it -- it seemed like there just wasn't any sarcasm here. Now, I don't speak Thai very well, and when one is forced to speak simply there's not much room for sarcasm but I really do believe that there's very little sarcasm in Thai society. Maybe the NAmericans you're meeting are just so pleased to be rid of it.

Irony. Well, that's an entirely different matter and one that's not easy to grasp. After being misled by incorrect popular usage, hit songs such as Canadian Alanis Morrisette's "Isn't it Ironic" (which wasn't), and their poorly paid public school teachers -- well, Americans are more than a little sketchy on the details. They gotta go back to the 1989 movie "Heathers" to really learn anything about irony and I think Police Academy 6 did bigger box office that year.

Anyway, written sarcasm often fails -- you gotta practically be G.D. Volatire to pull it off -- so it's not surprising that the third-ever "smiley" in history was the winky Ha Ha Only Serious sarcastic one. I'm not quite sure what, but something gets lost in the translation to out little yellow buddy here on TV.

[taxexile]

Girlfriend says to boyfriend: "Darling, how do you spell paedophile?"

Boyfriend says to girlfriend: "Gee, that's a big word for an eight year-old."

If Americans—if, mind you—truly do lack a sense of irony, then it's because American culture lends itself to straight talking devoid of any pompous niceties or specious circumlocution. Tact notwithstanding, you expect to hear what someone else thinks and you're expected to say what you actually mean.

Now, a culture built on this type of in-your-face, "here's what's on my mind" type of interaction doesn't easily lend itself to calculating irony.

The real irony is in the fact that the exemplar of competitive, cut & thrust capitalist economies has this soft underbelly.

This isn't a weakness but a response to the reality of living in a culture based on individual achievement and responsibility. If you have to take life seriously and can't pawn it off onto someone else, irony may not be your first outlet for fun. The type of humour that is peculiar to Jews all over the world is more in the American style.

It mocks the exigencies and frequent silliness of life in a very offhand manner. It can be caustic, but never mean.

Two Yiddish women are reminiscing:

Woman: "Oh, it was wonderful when we were first married. He used to bring me flowers. I remember lying on the bed, hearing him run up the stairs to our room. He flung the door open, a huge bouquet in his hand. I just smiled and opened my legs."

Friend: "What? You mean, he didn't bring a vase?"

If you examine British humour like Atkinson and Elton's Blackadder, Monty Python, Cleese's Fawlty Towers and even modern stuff like Curtis' Four Weddings, Notting Hill, Love Actually, etc., then you can see, if it wasn't for irony and its close cousin sarcasm, Brit fun would be very unfunny indeed. I mean, what would they have left? It would be depressing to the point of suicide.

Fare like Love Actually and About a Boy have a poignancy that is refreshing in Brit flicks. That type of sentimentality is straight from the Yanks. It's a killer combination.

Rand's definition of humour as something that is metaphysically unimportant at first seems a bit droll and, well, unfunny. But, she's right. Isn't she really just putting her own slant on irony and sarcasm? Isn't saying something is metaphysically unimportant akin to saying (as defines irony) that it is juxtaposed to reality?

Comedy sans any irony simply becomes farce without any wit or intelligence. The difference is that Americans seem to employ irony in limited quantities. It's just not their natural approach to life. Whereas, for the Brits, it is.

So, what about the Antipodeans? The Australians are quite funny and it comes from their diverse cultural makeup. Dame Edna, Norman Gunston, Billy Birmingham. The Castle, The Games & Frontline are exemplary. Even New Zealand's best head over there to spread their wings, John Clarke being our most brilliant export. Kiwi humour is schizoid, often coarse, belligerent and self-conscious all at once. Our predominantly British ancestors and their cultural attaches, the dour Calvinist Scots, have always had an unjolly response to life in the colonies. Lately this has been exacerbated by New Zealand's miasmic politically correct culture turning us into an inward-looking bunch of self-immolating comic laggards.

Aussies tell jokes about us:

"What do you call a New Zealander in a suit? The defendant."

The Scots in their homeland are hilarious. Their wit is as dry as a Bondian martini. The immigrant Jews and Irish, and the dangerous proximity of the British, are cause enough for this trait.

Chick Murray via Billy Connolly:

"I went to stay at a boarding house. The landlady asked: 'Do you have a good memory for faces?' I replied: 'Yes.' She said: 'Just as well. There's no mirror in your room.'"

Or...

"My father and I went on a bus trip. On a steep hill the driver lost control. The bus careened down the slope and crashed into a wall at the bottom. Everyone was okay. I was completely unhurt, but my father had the presence of mind to kick my head in."Life's hard north of the borders, but they can still laugh about it.

Polish jokes and the birch-welted, bum-smacking Scandinavians aside, Europe is a turgid wasteland of Burka'd Islamite solemnity and drunken, thigh-slapping lederhosen-osity. Imagine The Student Prince without Lanza. Despite thinking that Belsen was a gas, the Germans just aren't funny. Kraut humour seems to consist of smiling incongruously during the filming of hardcore porn. This is unfathomable, as no one lets the beast with two backs out of its cage for a harmless giggle. The odiferous French are just plain silly and, being the planet's self-appointed cultural judiciary, they don't take kindly to being laughed at. That's the real reason the Germans kicked the crap out of them in 1940, and everyone except the French seems to understand this.

How do the French advertise their World War II surplus rifles? Dropped once. Never fired.To paraphrase Robin Williams: "No, Europe, we're not laughing at you, we're laughing around you."

You see, the politically correct don't quite understand humour. They just don't get the jokes, and their attempts at laughter are disingenuous and awkward. Their lives are so full of such abject stupidity that they can no longer tell the difference between Rand's metaphysically unimportant and manifestly important reality.

Gimme the semi-ironic Americans and flaccidly repressed British any day. Chuck in a wee dram of Scots, a Jew or two, a soused Irishman and you've got the perfect antidote to anything this world can throw at you.

http://solohq.com/Articles/Elliot/Around_t...cle_Title.shtml

Edited October 10, 2005 by taxexile

[fxm88]

Do you mean rectum-linear? It's the basis for the whole Germanic sense of humour.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Rectum?! Nearly killed 'em!

Bonus question: for which sense of humor is this joke the basis?

[x-pat]

Sir Burr: Do you mean rectum-linear? It's the basis for the whole Germanic sense of humour.

Ah, yes. The German sense of humour. The fact that you believe in its existence, speaks in your favour.

Sir Burr: Just as a side issue, we Brits drive on the left side (the proper side) because of the Romans. It leaves your right hand free to defend yourself if on foot, or, on horse-back.

Well, that only proves two things. First, that the British still travel by horse and on foot (talk about conservative transportation!), and second, that they believe that attackers always approach them in a sportsmanlike manner upfront from the open road, instead of hiding in the coppice along the road.

X-Pat

[Sir Burr]

Ah, yes. The German sense of humour. The fact that you believe in its existence, speaks in your favour.

Of course Germans have a sense of humour (though anal-centric), It's the Swiss that are totally humourless.

[deus ex machina]

It seems to me that in expressing irony one always runs the risk that the intended audience will simply take offence at the terms in which it may be couched rather than comprehending the fuller meaning. This of course transgresses the first modern commandment " Thou shalt not cause offence " and the penalties for doing so in this dreary,anodyne, politically corrected world can be severe, not least the curtailment of free speech. It is suggested that posts should be carefully phrased in order that they may appeal to the widest audience without the merest hint of ambiguity so complete comprehension can be ensured.Unfortunately, appealing to the lowest common denominator is seldom rewarding and swiftly becomes boring.One only has to look at American television to illustrate the point.

Reading some of the posts, it occurs to me that cultural differences play no real part in determining our sense of humour and it may be that it is our genetic programming which has the greater role. As ever, nature or nuture? Incidentally, why is it there are no female submarine commanders or chess grandmistresses? It may be for the same reason that women appear congenitally incapable of reading maps or approaching a roundabout without first stopping.Spatial awareness, perhaps?

[deus ex machina]

I take your point but festooning posts with enlightening emoticons, in lieu of punctuation and accurate expression, strikes me as being somewhat lazy and perhaps a little patronising to the reader.Nevertheless, I can see its value in aiding comprehension in the more obtuse.

What a pompous ass you are...

Having read all of your 35 posts to date, you don't really have much to say at all, except of course to try to put people down... and to think I had a good chuckle over one of your previous posts this morning.

Where are you from and what has made you so bitter?

Irony? No... pompousity (sp?) in your case.

/Edit - your apology in the OP should be applied to the majority of posts you've made on the Forum to date.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, that's me.But beware of labelling, it can say more about the labeller than the labelled. Are you really taking this all so seriously?

[Jai Dee]

I take your point but festooning posts with enlightening emoticons, in lieu of punctuation and accurate expression, strikes me as being somewhat lazy and perhaps a little patronising to the reader.Nevertheless, I can see its value in aiding comprehension in the more obtuse.

What a pompous ass you are...

Having read all of your 35 posts to date, you don't really have much to say at all, except of course to try to put people down... and to think I had a good chuckle over one of your previous posts this morning.

Where are you from and what has made you so bitter?

Irony? No... pompousity (sp?) in your case.

/Edit - your apology in the OP should be applied to the majority of posts you've made on the Forum to date.

Yeah, that's me.But beware of labelling, it can say more about the labeller than the labelled. Are you really taking this all so seriously?

No really... *yawn*

I think I'll wander off now to the Tits Thread for some real entertainment...

I hope my festoonment of emoticons has enlightened you appropriately for now... not wishing to seem patronising of course...

/Edit - fixed typo

Edited October 10, 2005 by Jai Dee

[deus ex machina]

I take your point but festooning posts with enlightening emoticons, in lieu of punctuation and accurate expression, strikes me as being somewhat lazy and perhaps a little patronising to the reader.Nevertheless, I can see its value in aiding comprehension in the more obtuse.

What a pompous ass you are...

Having read all of your 35 posts to date, you don't really have much to say at all, except of course to try to put people down... and to think I had a good chuckle over one of your previous posts this morning.

Where are you from and what has made you so bitter?

Irony? No... pompousity (sp?) in your case.

/Edit - your apology in the OP should be applied to the majority of posts you've made on the Forum to date.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, that's me.But beware of labelling, it can say more about the labeller than the labelled. Are you really taking this all so seriously?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No really... *yawn*

I think I'll wander off now to the Tits Thread for some real entertainment...

I hope my festoonment of emoticons has enlightened you appropriately for now... not wishing to seem patronising of course...

/Edit - fixed typo

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I hope you don't mean the ladies forum.........

[RDN]

...those who enjoy "taking the piss" the most are the ones who prefer to inflict it on others but become quite offended when it is aimed at themselves.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think the opposite sbk, I like to be sarcastic but never, ABSOLUTELY NEVER, with the Thai girlfriend. Never.

Ever.

Edited October 10, 2005 by RDN

[The_Other_Mac]

I think, in a forum, it is difficult to be ironic without actually being sarcastic and offensive. Much gets lost without being able to see someones body language or face. That said, I have often found that those who enjoy "taking the piss" the most are the ones who prefer to inflict it on others but become quite offended when it is aimed at themselves.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Irony isn't really just "taking the piss". There's that sort of non-stop insulting banter that develops between friends, and it happens with established posters on social forums like this, too. A similar thing exists between Aussies and Kiwis - I doubt anyone could take offense at it, because it seems like the entire of both countries are already in on the joke, and AFAIK it's not based on any major historical animosity. Now if you start the same thing between Irish and British... most of the time you'll be fine, but occasionally in a public forum you'll find someone that feels really strongly on the issue, or lost friends in a bombing, and sees the jokes as rubbing salt in the wound. So yes, then there's a risk.

Taking the piss out of a newbie for, say, posting in the wrong forum, whether it involves sarcasm or not, is not banter. It's just attacking someone who has no comeback. A psychologist would probably add that the attacker isn't trying to communicate with the newbie, but wants to score points in front of the peer group of forum regulars, hoping to be accepted into that group.

Now irony... for a start, doesn't need to be directed at an individual. It can be directed at all humans, or sections of society, or just situations. And taken at face value, it probably isn't insulting. But if the reader thinks about the full implications, they could see that there's a reference to an opposing point of view. It shouldn't get lost through lack of body language, because the direct meaning and veiled reference are all there in the text. It does, however, require writing skills as opposed to speaking skills. After all, this isn't a chatroom, you have plenty of time to think about your answer.

Readers are not likely to spot irony if they skim-read; or if they fail to take into account extra information (e.g. that posters nationality, language ability, length of time on board, general reputation). So yes, the newbie is at a disadvantage - they may see that there's some reference that they're missing. Often they'll ask, which is fine, and be told how to read that person's previous posts, which is fine. Yes, there is a bit of a learning curve to any social group. If we didn't have that to make a distinguishable group, there wouldn't be a group.

[The_Other_Mac]

And now some examples:

Direct insult: NZs are sheep shaggers.

Taking the piss-banter: a tourist visa is valid for 60, not 90 days, you f*cking sheep shagger.

Sarcasm: Oh sure, and I suppose your wives make sure you're home from the hills before dark?

Irony: Despite the old insults from Australia, there's very little sheep shagging in NZ now. When they passed the law ordering the cutting out of offenders tongues, the number of complaints dropped sharply overnight. When contacted, the NZ Sheep Farmer's Union had no comment.*

(* Best I could come up with. Just realised it's sort of hard to do it on cue. Bah.)

[the scouser]

True story:-

An American visitor to the UK once asked a colleague of mine why the pedestrian crossings in the U.K. emit a bleeping noise. My colleague explained that it was so blind people can use them. The American chap pondered this for a second, and then said:-

"Gee, in America, we don't let blind people drive."

Scouse.

[BambinA]

I take your point but festooning posts with enlightening emoticons, in lieu of punctuation and accurate expression, strikes me as being somewhat lazy and perhaps a little patronising to the reader.Nevertheless, I can see its value in aiding comprehension in the more obtuse.

What a pompous ass you are...

Having read all of your 35 posts to date, you don't really have much to say at all, except of course to try to put people down... and to think I had a good chuckle over one of your previous posts this morning.

Where are you from and what has made you so bitter?

Irony? No... pompousity (sp?) in your case.

/Edit - your apology in the OP should be applied to the majority of posts you've made on the Forum to date.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, that's me.But beware of labelling, it can say more about the labeller than the labelled. Are you really taking this all so seriously?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No really... *yawn*

I think I'll wander off now to the Tits Thread for some real entertainment...

I hope my festoonment of emoticons has enlightened you appropriately for now... not wishing to seem patronising of course...

/Edit - fixed typo

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I hope you don't mean the ladies forum.........

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

nope, he might ment about gay forum..somehow ..

[BambinA]

True story:-

An American visitor to the UK once asked a colleague of mine why the pedestrian crossings in the U.K. emit a bleeping noise. My colleague explained that it was so blind people can use them. The American chap pondered this for a second, and then said:-

"Gee, in America, we don't let blind people drive."

Scouse.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

classic

[deus ex machina]

[BambinA]

I hope you don't mean the ladies forum.........

nope, he might ment about gay forum..somehow ..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

just sarcasm ..

[sadman]

I think there's a big difference between irony and sarcasm. Sarcasm, in many instances, is little more than sneering, whereas irony can be hugely amusing. IMHO it is funniest when used in a self-deprecatory sense, or by people who are quite happy to join in the banter.

There's nothing worse than someone who can dish it out but not take it. Such people are my hobby in life, and I prick their balloons with gusto.

"Join the National Sarcasm Society" (yeah, like we need your support).

A teacher was addressing a class and said "There are ways in which a double negative can mean a positive, such as saying 'it is never less' suggests there is always more. Likewise, mixing a positive and a negative will obviously give a negative, such as 'it can never be more', which suggests that it must be less. But there is no instance where a double positive can suggest the opposite." And a voice from the back pipes up "yeah, right".

[x-pat]

Sir Burr: Of course Germans have a sense of humour (though anal-centric), It's the Swiss that are totally humourless.

No really, I congratulate you on having discovered German humour. It is certainly not easy to detect. Perhaps it is hiding in obscure places, such as the one you indicated, places where few people dare to venture. Frequently, when I travel back to my home country, I feel there is a distinct lack of it. The gentleman with the teeth even disavowed the existence of Kraut humour. Of course, being blessed with Thai smiles during most of the year raises one's expectations regarding the general level of cheerfulness and humour.

But even Thailand has its very own sense of humour, which is quite different from British, Aussie, and (fugacious) German humour. It's my impression that irony is not well understood in Thailand. At least my own attempts at it have often been met by simpering and irritated facial expressions. While it may be (rightly) suspected that this has to do with my limited linguistic abilities, there's also a cultural component. Just think of the caustic type of humour that the British often apply to their royal familiy and other dignitaries. A similar attempt in Thailand could easily land you in prison.

The Thai variety of irony often alludes to physical features. For example, many find it funny to refer to dark skinned persons as "ee-dam". I once had a somewhat stubby friend with a protruding, err..., I mean Greek nose, otherwise a very handsome fellow. His Thai friends derived immeasurable amusement from calling him "Penguin". Everytime he was introduced to a new group of people, the party invariably broke out in laughter upon mentioning his nick name. While this may have been annoying to the name bearer, the unsophisticated merriness of the Thais is at the same time quite endearing.

X-Pat

[the scouser]

Perhaps it is hiding in obscure places.........places where few people dare to venture.

Inside a Bavarian's lederhosen?

Just think of the caustic type of humour that the British often apply to their royal family

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They're bloody Krauts too!!

Scouse.

[OxfordWill]

Were you being sarcastic when you said the Swiss lack a sense of humour? Travelled round Laos with a Swiss guy called Mulvin - his sense of humour made the entire holiday for me, absolutely hilarious and very 'British'.

[taxexile]

Mulvin

[Guest endure]

Well, that only proves two things. First, that the British still travel by horse and on foot (talk about conservative transportation!), and second, that they believe that attackers always approach them in a sportsmanlike manner upfront from the open road, instead of hiding in the coppice along the road.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well if the attackers were British they would approach in a sportsmanlike manner. It's only those dastardly foreigners who don't fight fair

[x-pat]

scouser: Inside a Bavarian's Lederhosen?

What's it with the Lederhosen? It's a timeless and stately garment for the young rural professional. Don't these young lads and lasses look handsome?

X-Pat

[the scouser]

A fine body of men and women! However, as a child my parents took me to Germany on holiday and bought me a pair of lederhosen, which they would make me wear on special occasions.

Looking back, I consider it to have been child abuse and should report them to the police.

Scouse.