Chemical Pollution.....blood Toxins

[Ned]

According to an article in yesterday's Nation more than 1,600 Chiang Mai residents were tested for toxins in the blood and 95% were found to have dangerously high concentrations. What toxins exactly wasn't mentioned but more than likely herbicides and heavy metals. Anyone feel like a blood test? I wonder how many years it takes staying here to build up to a typical Thai person's blood toxin level?

In the same article it was stated that nearly all pork sold contains high levels of the salmonella virus as a result of the lax slaughtering process where faeces and meat are allowed to come in contact.

[terdsak_12]

What else is new???

[Connor McCloud]

no wonder pork tastes like shit , I thought it was just the gf's cooking

[chownah]

Is this the article? http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2005/10/14...l_18871377.html

I think the toxins they are talking about are associated with salmonella, not pesticides or heavy metals.....but it isn't clear about this. Is salmonella what causes food poisoning? and if so then if you're not getting symptoms of food poisoning then its not a problem? I do agree, however that contamination of food is a problem here.

[Chang_paarp]

Funny I thought this was going to be a political tirade, but it only about poisons in the thai system.

Chang

[bakachan]

According to an article in yesterday's Nation more than 1,600 Chiang Mai residents were tested for toxins in the blood and 95% were found to have dangerously high concentrations.  What toxins exactly wasn't mentioned but more than likely herbicides and heavy metals. Anyone feel like a blood test? I wonder how many years it takes staying here to build up to a typical Thai person's blood toxin level?

In the same article it was stated that nearly all pork sold contains high levels of the salmonella virus as a result of the lax slaughtering process where faeces and meat are allowed to come in contact.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

anyone got stats on cancer, birth defect rates?

[ZZZ]

Thailand is full of un-licensed waste disposal companies dumping toxins wherever they can. These toxins are then making their way into food chain. There are daily stories in the papers regarding this but not much is being done.

From this weeks Pattaya mail:

Police and Plutaluang sub-district authorities are looking for those responsible for the unauthorized dumping of chemical waste in the Khao Pancham Valley.

Following complaints from villagers, volunteer police went into the deserted area late at night where they found a truck bearing Chonburi license plates and a railroad truck, also carrying Chonburi identification, parked in the valley and pouring chemical substances onto the ground.

Volunteer police officer points to toxic waste illegally dumped at Khao Pancham Valley in Plutaluang, Sattahip.

As soon as he saw the officers the driver locked his door and ran away into the forest. The vehicle was impounded and taken to Plutaluang police station.

Taweep Tangkaew, chief of the Plutaluang sub-district executive, said the villagers have reported the truck had been dumping the chemicals into the valley every night. A report has been made to Sattahip district chief Pongpat Wongtrakul, and the chemical substance is being analyzed. The authorities assume it came from Rayong Province.

[Ned]

Sorry Chownah but the Nation article referred specifically to pesticide contamination and even mentioned those veges worst affected. The problem of unhygienic food handling and processing were also mentioned.

[chownah]

Sorry Chownah but the Nation article referred specifically to pesticide contamination and even mentioned those veges worst affected. The problem of unhygienic food handling and processing were also mentioned.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If the article is the one I gave a link for then I read it in its entirety and I am still of the opinion that the toxins they refer to that were found in the blood of Chiang Mai residents were salmonella toxins....but, as I stated before they don't say specifically what toxins they found. The article in its entirety is reproduced below so that anyone can determine for themselves what they think it means:

Contamination fears prompt demands for food-safety body

Published on October 14, 2005

A national body to control the hygienic handling of food on its journey from the farm to the table is being called for, following reports which show that agricultural commodities often fall short of food safety standards.

Songsak Srianujata, manager of the Knowledge Network Institute of Thailand’s Food Safety Project, said yesterday that food contamination is still an issue due to a lack of safety awareness among both the authorities and those involved in food production and processing.

According to Songsak, contamination can take place at every step of the food chain, from the farms, where farmers still use huge amounts of chemicals, to transportation and storage processes, which are often unhygienic, right up until the processing and sales stages.

He referred to the latest research from Mahidol Univer-sity’s Institute of Nutrition, which found that 90 per cent of pork available in 36 fresh markets in Bangkok and the vicinity was contaminated with salmonella bacteria, which can cause cholera. He added that the contamination could also have come from cutting boards, knives and even the hands of individuals selling the pork.

According to Songsak, the bacteria are normally found in pig waste and its intestines.

“We can assume that the contamination begins at the slaughter house where waste and pork might not be separated, or intestines might be mixed with pork in the same containers. Without guidelines, the possibility of contamination continues throughout the process until the meat is handed over to the consumers,” he said.

“How can we be the world’s kitchen if we still have a problem with food safety?” he added.

Songsak said his institute would make a proposal to Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra suggesting he set up a national body to monitor food safety.

Songsak’s concerns were echoed by Deputy Director-General of the Health Depart-ment Sophon Mekthon, who said that after the government announced the food safety policy in 2003, the toxic contamination of food had declined, though it still exceeded acceptable levels.

He said the Medical Science Department had also found pesticide contamination in Chinese kale, Chinese cabbage and cow peas, especially the kale.

A recent study by the Thai Health Promotion Foundation also showed that 90 per cent of Chiang Mai residents tested had excessive levels of toxins in their blood.

Dr Supakorn Buasai of the foundation said the study

which tested the levels of toxins in the blood of 1,682 Chiang

Mai residents from August last year to September this year, revealed that 95 per cent of them displayed unsafe levels of toxins.

The Disease Control Depart-ment’s nationwide food poisoning watch report also revealed that there had been 102,370 cases of food poisoning, with more than half [52 per cent] of the cases reported in the northeastern region.

[Big Tony]

It is probably because the local workers at the slaughter house don't use bum sprays and cleanse themselves the traditional way.

[chownah]

Sorry Chownah but the Nation article referred specifically to pesticide contamination and even mentioned those veges worst affected. The problem of unhygienic food handling and processing were also mentioned.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I went to google and tried to find out just what toxins were being detected. I looked at a Thai Health Promotion Foundation web site since the article attributed the study to them....but...when I looked around there I found that they claimed that the study was done by the Disease Control Department...these are the people who do food poisoning studies...meaning bacteria. To make a long story shorter, the Thai Health Promotion Foundation web site made statements that seem to indicate that the term 'toxins' included pesticide residues....but once again they were not 100% clear on this....and....I could not find a web site for the Disease Control Department....so.......now my opinion is that it is likely that pesticide residues were included in the toxins reported....but I would have to see the Disease Control Department report before I would be sure.

At any rate the issue of pesticide residues in the food supply is important and really a problem in Thailand where overuse of pesticides is common and their danger is too often not understood by the locals who handle them and the produce which is contaminated with them......that is why I do my farming without using these substances....now I wish I could get my wife to stop using them....I'm working on her.

[GuestHouse]

Last year we had two reports regarding serious problems with toxins in Thai food (Heavy Metals found in rice crops resulting in the Thai goverment having to destroy havested rice and take land out of production), there was a second report regarding the use of pesticides and herbicides in the Orange farming industries around Chiang Mai.

The whole issue of food safety is one that has not yet been given any serious debate in Thailand but one that has been debated in the west, I believe another case where it really would not hurt to learn from the experience of the west.

When the UK's Prince Charles started talking about these things 30 years ago he was branded as a hippy, eccentric etc - It turns out he was on the money with his views on food quality and safety.

My wife and I feel this whole food safety issue is hugely important and we have made plans to build our own home on a plot of land big enough to accommodate a sizable vegitable garden, we plan to ensure the safety of the food we eat by growing as much of it as we can.

Well something to keep me busy with in retirement...

[SiamOne]

a plot of land big enough to accommodate a sizable vegitable garden, we plan to ensure the safety of the food we eat by growing as much of it as we can.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

well, make sure you get soill tests done before you plant. A lot of land is contaminated in CM, and soil from "bad" areas can be used to infill land on building sites.

[meadish_sweetball]

So is Chiang Mai worse off than other places in Thailand in terms of pesticide use and contaminated food?

[seeker108]

So is Chiang Mai worse off than other places in Thailand in terms of pesticide use and contaminated food?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

One thing good about the Chiang Mai area is that there are many who are trying to grow completely organic or at least herbicide and pesticide free and even in local markets you can find those who claim to be selling organic produce (even up in Mae Rim market).

I checked out some of the growers and as far as I could tell the claims were legitimate and the growers were sincerely organic in their thinking. However you can not be certain without checking it yourself as there is little organic certification available and most local farmers growing organic do not wish the extra expense of certification as they do not seem to charge any more for their produce than non organic. At least not in the local markets where I was shopping. In the major grocery stores you certainly pay a premium for organic when you can find it.

[p1p]

Problem with "organic" produce in Chiang Mai is that almost every watershed area is severely polluted with pesticide. The hilltribes grow their flowers on the high hills. These utilise huge amounts of pesticide and that enters the water for everybody downstream. There is almost no "clean" water in CM province.

[chownah]

Problem with "organic" produce in Chiang Mai is that almost every watershed area is severely polluted with pesticide. The hilltribes grow their flowers on the high hills. These utilise huge amounts of pesticide and that enters the water for everybody downstream. There is almost no "clean" water in CM province.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think it is diluted to undetectable levels by the time it hits the lowlands....am I wrong?

[seeker108]

Problem with "organic" produce in Chiang Mai is that almost every watershed area is severely polluted with pesticide. The hilltribes grow their flowers on the high hills. These utilise huge amounts of pesticide and that enters the water for everybody downstream. There is almost no "clean" water in CM province.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think it is diluted to undetectable levels by the time it hits the lowlands....am I wrong?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Unfortunately this is most likely wishful thinking. I have experienced directly the severe poisoning of the water supply in farming communities in the US.

Does anyone here have any connections with the ag departments at CMU or MJU? They both have had strong interest in the past in the whole pesticide/herbicide issue. It would be interesting to know if they have conducted any tests for chemical contamination on the general water supply that farms tap into and also on produce grown without the chemicals, but potentially exposed to indirect contaminants to see what the contamination levels are. It might be a real eye opener.

I know at CMU they had a good sized program encouraging local farmers to be pesticide and herbicide free and it was spearheaded by the department chairman. If they have not conducted such tests already they might be very keen to do so if they were made aware of the possible magnitude of the problem.

[p1p]

Both CMU and Maejo are actively involved in testing water etc.

I looked into this in some depth about eight years ago, as I was looking for land on which to start organic farming. After testing samples from many areas, from north of Chiang Rai to south of Hot, we found only one clean piece of land with a water supply which would pass relevant UK requirements to be classed as organic. That was near Ampur Mae Wang and the owner there had complete control of the entire watershed area, and had kept it chemical free for 45+ years.

Every other piece of land, highland or lowland, and water supply, whether from river, stream or artesian supply, was too contaminated to pass.

[seeker108]

Both CMU and Maejo are actively involved in testing water etc.

I looked into this in some depth about eight years ago, as I was looking for land on which to start organic farming. After testing samples from many areas, from north of Chiang Rai to south of Hot, we found only one clean piece of land with a water supply which would pass relevant UK requirements to be classed as organic. That was near Ampur Mae Wang and the owner there had complete control of the entire watershed area, and had kept it chemical free for 45+ years.

Every other piece of land, highland or lowland, and water supply, whether from river, stream or artesian supply, was too contaminated to pass.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A great shame. And you say that most of the contamination is coming from the commercial growing of flowers by the hilltribes. I was not aware of this problem when last there. I was aware though of one or two orange groves that were way over the top with the use of these poisons and that from there it was also getting into the water system..

Clearly it would be more than we want, but I wonder how much of the contamination is passing through the root system of the plants into the vegetable itself (assuming it is not a root vegetable like carrots for example) with organically grown vegetables. It would be nice to have actual test results to be able to highlight the problem and in this way track down the source of the poisons getting into people's bloodstreams.

Has anything been done to try to stop the hilltribes from using pesticides both through educating them about the incredible damage to themselves as the ones most directly exposed and about safe alternatives? I am surprised that this has not been brought to the attention of the King. From what I understand he is very proactively eco oriented.

[chownah]

Both CMU and Maejo are actively involved in testing water etc.

I looked into this in some depth about eight years ago, as I was looking for land on which to start organic farming. After testing samples from many areas, from north of Chiang Rai to south of Hot, we found only one clean piece of land with a water supply which would pass relevant UK requirements to be classed as organic. That was near Ampur Mae Wang and the owner there had complete control of the entire watershed area, and had kept it chemical free for 45+ years.

Every other piece of land, highland or lowland, and water supply, whether from river, stream or artesian supply, was too contaminated to pass.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do you have data that you could pm me on this issue....I'm very interested. I'd like to know who did the sampling and the testing and what the results were. Did you test water or dirt or both. How many areas did you sample? Did you sample irrigation water from irrigation systems? What specific items were found that wouldn't pass muster for the UK?

[seeker108]

Or maybe post it so we can all see.

[p1p]

I'm sorry. I have no details any more. As I said above, this was some eight years ago and we were searching for land suitable for organically growing medicinal herbs, among other things. We took soil and water samples from many tens of potentially availavble sites and gave them to a Maejo Professor who was then involved in the project, I'm afraid I have forgotten his name.

The only site that passed belonged to a locally well-known gentleman, a friend of the King. Unfortunately there was too much land there, and it was well beyond our budget at well over 1,000 Million Baht for almost 2,000 Rai. I gather it has since changed ownership and is now under chemical cultivation.

The project ended up being shelved for Thailand, although I gather the principals involved have started elsewhere.

[chownah]

I'm sorry. I have no details any more. As I said above, this was some eight years ago and we were searching for land suitable for organically growing medicinal herbs, among other things. We took soil and water samples from many tens of potentially availavble sites and gave them to a Maejo Professor who was then involved in the project, I'm afraid I have forgotten his name.

The only site that passed belonged to a locally well-known gentleman, a friend of the King. Unfortunately there was too much land there, and it was well beyond our budget at well over 1,000 Million Baht for almost 2,000 Rai. I gather it has since changed ownership and is now under chemical cultivation.

The project ended up being shelved for Thailand, although I gather the principals involved have started elsewhere.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No offense, but since there is no data of any kind here this will in my book go down as just one more unsubstantiated rumor....I was really hoping that you would come up with something.

So the good land was over 500,000 baht per rai....seems kind of steep....especially for such a large parcel.

Its difficult for me to believe that all the water in the north is so polluted that it would keep a farmer from meeting UK standards....from a few flowers being grown in the hills.

[seeker108]

By unsubstantiated, I assume you are referring to the part about the blame going only to the flower growing up in the hills. The fact that all water supplies (except one) tested with poisons seems definite, despite the paperwork no longer being available, as P1P had conducted the sampling personally. You might say this research is now out of date and I would have to agree. More likely the situation is now worse.

I am hoping there have been more current studies done and the source of the widespread poisoning will be tracked down. Because, the fact remains that there is some serious source of poison

in the Chiang Mai area as indicated by the fact that 95 per cent of Chiang Mai residents who were tested displayed unsafe levels of toxins in their blood.

I will say that I have heard from people connected with the industry that the flower growers do use an extremely high level of toxins and it does not surprise that if this is going on up in the hills that these poisons are then flowing down and collecting in the water supply. I hope one of you who are currently on the scene will be looking further into this.

[chownah]

By unsubstantiated, I assume you are referring to the part about the blame going only to the flower growing up in the hills.  The fact that all water supplies (except one) tested with poisons seems definite, despite the paperwork no longer being available, as P1P had conducted the sampling personally.  You might say this research is now out of date and I would have to agree.  More likely the situation is now worse.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

By unsubstantiated I mean that P1P has made some statements and no one has backed them up with data. No offense is meant by this, by the way. This is my reaction whenever anyone makes statements and there are no facts to back them up. I have not seen where P1P stated that he collected the samples himself. If he did do this then it would be great if he could post how he did the sampling and some sort of vague description of the geographic distribution etc. so that we could evaluate the approximate area he is referring to....also the time of year he sampled and whether this land was being actively farmed or being left fallow...was it rice land or upland...etc.

I am hoping there have been more current studies done and the source of the widespread poisoning will be tracked down.  Because, the fact remains that there is some serious source of poison

in the Chiang Mai area as indicated by the fact that 95 per cent of Chiang Mai residents who were tested displayed unsafe levels of toxins in their blood.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you find out such a study please let me know....I'm very interested.

I will say that I have heard from people connected with the industry that the flower growers do use an extremely high level of toxins and it does not surprise that if this is going on up in the hills that these poisons are then flowing down and collecting in the water supply.  I hope one of you who are currently on the scene will be looking further into this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It seems to me that the actual number of rai dedicated to flower growing is very small compared to other agricultural crops...maybe I am wrong about this. If so then it seems unlikely that flowers would be causing the problem. I'm reasonably certain that all of the officials and scientists that P1P and his co-workers dealt with were Thai and I'm reasonably certain that alot of the flower growers in the hills are hilltribe people....and believe me, 8 years ago and still today there is a lot of prejudice in the hearts of Thai people toward the mountain people...I have on many occasions heard of Thai people who blame all types of conceivable problems on the mountain people. The big orange growers who are a more likely source of pesticide contamination and they are all Thai. It seems perfectly plausible to me that they would shift blame to the mountain people since this lends some dignity to their enterprise in spite of the fact that it is rumored that these rich, politically well connected Thai orchardists obtained their land through theft and violence....and I have some direct experience of how 'education' works in Thailand and I fully believe that if rich Thai orchardists want to make a case that it is the mountain people who are causing the problem then it would be very easy for them to get academia to line up behind them and support their ideas.....of course I could be wrong about all of this.

And finally, if anyone makes the claim that it is impossible to raise organic crops in Thailand because all of the water and land are too polluted then I really want to investigate this fully for two reasons....first, if it is true then it is good if this fact comes out and is more widely recognized because then perhaps something will be done....and second also because if it is false then it is good if people are informed of this fact so that they can find out about where organic produce can be grown and consumers can, if they are willing to make some effort, obtain produce which is free of pesticide residues. I fully support any effort to make these facts known but it takes documented facts and I'm hoping that P1P can find some of his old data and present it here....or anyone else for that matter.

[seeker108]

Hmmm. Maybe let's get back to the basic issue here and see what we want to do. Chownah, I suspect that you and I and P1P as well as many others on this forum feel the same way.

It seems we have a serious problem with chemical poisoning in Chiang Mai based on the recent study mentioned in the OP.

Based on P1P's earlier research, in additition to what poisons are already being put directly on the commercially grown crops they also seem to be absorbing even more through the water supply. (And I believe P1P does say above, 3 seperate times, that he collected the samples (please correct me P1P if you were not personally involved)).

Further, if these poisons are so pervasive, then even supposed organic crops are loaded with poisons. Frustrating!

Chownah, I agree that we really need documented evidence of the degree and source of poisoning and this then needs to come to the attention of officials everywhere and the poisoning needs to stop wherever it exists.

What an ignorant age we live in. We put very toxic poisons on the food we eat. We additionally put poisons into our water supplies. Then we need scientific studies to prove to the decision makers that the poisons in our bodies are there because we are eating and drinking them. Absurd! Anyway it is a fact that we consumers are brainwashed by the spin doctors of the petro chemical industries and the politicians are both brainwashed and bribed by them, so scientific evidence is a sword we need.

Even if the 8 year old studies could be dug up (P1P, any chance these might be found in some file at Mae Jo or CMU?), I am sure we would need newer studies as well. Is anyone willing to do any leg work on this or are we just going to flap our jaws and forget about it next week and try to fool ourselves that what WE are eating could not possibly contain poisons (despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary).

If nothing else, 14 Oct. Nation article in hand, I will dig around the universities for support or collaboration on this when I get back, but that may be a long ways off as I may get sidetracked into any number of projects both in and outside of Thailand before returning. If anyone wants to spearhead this NOW and there is anything I can do with emailing people or doing research from here, email or PM me.

On a side note regarding the need for these poisons. Anyone ever hear of the country of Cuba? Without digressing into politics, let's just say, that some decades back the US decided that they needed to be punished in many different ways. One of the punishments was that they were not to be permitted to buy any of these wonderful herbacides, pesticides, or chemical fertilizers from the US or allies. They were forced to farm without them. It is a very odd fact that they continue to produce bumper organic crops to this day. Hmm, could it also be that there existed farming for all of the millenia before Monsanto? No, I guess that simply is not possible. At least that is what Monsanto and friends would have you believe.

[Sel]

I would suspect that most of the contamination comes after farming. I would think that modern pesticides would be removed by rinsing your veges however it would be best to rinse under running water rather than soaked in a bowl. That said it wouldn't surprise me if DDT was still being used and DDT has a long residual breakdown in soil. New Zealand milk is only at safe drinkable levels to this day because they mix contaminated south Is milk with lower contaminated North Is milk to meet the standards.

If you eat street noodles a lot then check out if the boiler in the cart is a one piece pressed sheet or the usual lead solded seems. It is common for fresh seafood to be preserved with some chemical in thailand. Don't know what is used but how does seafood remain fresh in 30 to 40 degree heat sitting on ice for a few days? and being transported on ice in a pickup until there sold to a vendor.

[chownah]

Seeker108,

I hope you are right about P1P having collected the samples himself. When I read his posts it seems to me that he uses the pronoun 'we' to describe the activity but perhaps I'm wrong. In any case, regardless of his sentence construction, I do hope that you are right and that he searches his memory and posts some information about this sampling...things like I mentioned in my post above.

Chownah

[p1p]

I'm sorry, I seem to have put the cat amongst the pigeons somewhat here. Perhaps I should give a little history.

I was approached by a foreign company to help them find land that would pass UK standards to be classed as organic. They were primarily interested in upland land, lowland rice paddy was not considered and they further required access to running water.

I made use of my local contacts to find land that might fit the bill. I visited at least 50% of the sites myself and took samples of water and a couple of core samples of soil about 12 inches deep. Similar samples were taken by another Farang at the other sites visited.

All samples and details of the land, with photographs etc. were passed on to the principals involved.

I never received the test results myself. My brief was simply to find the land and take samples for testing. I simply received verbal reports, hearsay if you will, that all sites bar one were poisoned.