Advice About Botched Medical Care At Bumrungrad Today

[smallbear]

I'd be grateful for anyone's advice, as I don't really know where to start. I have had a simple procedure at Bumrungrad today. It involved administering an injection and then carrying out ultrasound, but the doctor has injected me in the wrong place. It caused a tremendous amount of pain but I couldn't see what he was doing, as I was lying down.

He carried on regardless but when I arrived home and after the pain had subsided, I examined myself properly and found that the injection site is completely in the wrong place, according to what their own document says it should be, and on all the medical web sites that give advice about my problem.

He never told me what had happened, but I feel there's a strong chance he would have seen what went wrong during the work, because the injection is meant to cause something to show up on the scan. He said that nothing showed, but didn't elaborate.

The cost was 12,000-13,000 for this procedure today and I expressed my concerns about it beforehand. It should have been a simple process but time and time again, in this country, I find that things go wrong that shouldn't, because of lack of care and general carelessness.

What should I do? I know their English isn't very good even at the best of times and I feel that I won't be able to get anything done. Is there is legal process that one can take?

Thanks.

[jimmym40]

Sorry to hear your predicament. Don't know about any legal action you may take, but I would guess that you will definately benefit if you go to another respectable hospital and have another professional doctor confirm what you expect happened and get it in writing. The sooner you accomplish this, the better. I'm sure you will get nowhere by just going back to Bumrungrad and try to get satisfaction from them. All depends on how much time, effort and funds you want to expend to solve this issue.

Good luck.

[Sheryl]

Legally processes would hardly be worth your while unless you had sustained serious injury which does not seem to be the case. And would have no guarantee of success to boot.

You MIGHT be able to negotiate your way into a free repeat procedure if it is clear that the first procedure was not done correctly but I am not at all sure this is in fact the case. It would help to know what type of procedure this was and what type of injection. It sounds like the injection was some sort of contrast agent in which case there would be more than one acceptable place at which to inject it.

Please provide more details, if you are not comfortable posting then can send me a PM.

The other thing you can and should do is a get a copy of your medical record and the scan itself (the actual picture, not just the reported interpretation). You can then bring this to another physician for a second reading/opinion and thus put your mind at ease as to whether the contrast injection was sufficient and whether the reading of the film you were given was correct. It will not cost you much (just a consultation fee) unless the second doctor says the procedure needs to be repeated (at which point you would have grounds to go to Bumrungrad adnisbistratiob=b=n and negotiate a repeat test at no additional cost).

Getting the film and your records will cost nothing other than maybe a small photocopy/administrative fee, but you will have to go in person to do it and bring your passport as ID with you.

Once I know what type of procedure/problem this is, I can suggest a specialist to see for second opinion.

[smallbear]

Thanks indeed to both of the above posters. I returned to Bumrungrad today for my follow-up consultation and although initially the department that carried out the procedure denied any wrong-doing on my arrival, after visiting the referring specialist and showing the photographs I took of the injury last night, and of course re-examining me, he agreed with me that the procedure was carried out incorrectly, resulting in an injury to me.

He said that he had often told them how to carry out the procedure, but that it was not understood. He added that he would contact them and tell them what to do. He offered to instruct them to carry out another procedure free-of-charge, but frankly I cannot contemplate going through with it.

It appears that the department lied to me yesterday, by saying that he used a very small dose and that is why the procedure failed. In fact, the procedure failed because the dose was administered in the wrong place and caused an adverse effect, in a very tender and unsuitable location.

Now I am left with an ugly scar, a lot of pain and anxiety from the whole incident.

The couch on which I was lying yesterday was soaking wet with sweat, from the intense pain and stress from the whole event. It was really a nightmare and I cannot face going through it again with such an incompetent member of staff. On top of this, the doctor is supposed to be the best at Bumrungrad for this surgical procedure.

As for the legal process, I was asked to sign a disclaimer form prior to the consultation, agreeing that in the event of a claim, I would only use the Thailand legal process and not an International legal system. Of course, from advice I have separately received today, the Thai legal system is dysfunctional anyway, so of little use in medical cases.

My advice to anyone, is to stay away from this place and carefully consider the standards of these types of so-called International hospitals, which on the face of things show a smart and attractive facade, but in reality still lack proper standards and do very little to prevent careless accidents. My procedure was in fact very common and it is really a breakdown in Bumrungrad's training and application, that it failed me in this way.

I'd reconsider any institution here that asks the patient to waive his or her rights to using International legal processes in the event of a claim, when in fact the organisation uses the "International" image in its marketing, conveying an image of International standards, when in fact they do not stand by them in a case of poor patient care. They know of course that the Thai legal process is of little use, with its limited damages claims and coverage only of patients' fees, in the best-case scenario. This has been another lesson to me.

Edited July 13, 2011 by smallbear

[moe666]

Sorry to hear about your experience. I think to try and gain some satisfaction go all the way to the top and report this. They cannot correct a problem unless it is exposed to the top. These types of mistakes happen worlwide and the only way to confront it is to go on up.

[ThaiPauly]

I feel for you I really do.

It's really a waste of time to try any legal process, a few years ago I had a lung punctured in a very minor procedure, the doc who did it "eventually" owned up to his error and paid the bull for the operation and my resultant stay in hospital to recover, but I spent 4,000 B for good advice from a lawyer and he told me that Thailand does not recognise Punative Damage laws, so it was not worth my while taking them to court as there would be little chance of compensation, just bad publicity for the hospital because they almost killed me.

Someone once told me that one of the reasons health care was so cheap in comparison to the west here is because there are no large insurance premiums for the hopitals to fork out for Not sure if its true, I can see it being somewhat responsible, but personally I think its the low wages and long hours doctors and nurses put in, I saw a nurse at a hospital the other night who was doing a straight 18 hour shift, how she can perform properly after 17 hours beggars belief, and she had to do this every day for a week.

A few nights ago I was unfortunatley in an ICU room and the nurse assigned to me had only graduated from university 3 months prior and was really inexperienced. When I was asleep the saline drip line came out of my arm and covered me with so much blood it woke me and at fisrt sight it looked like I had been shot several times, scared me a lot.

But in Thailand private health care is all about the bottom line and for us it always will be.

[smallbear]

Sorry to hear about your experience. I think to try and gain some satisfaction go all the way to the top and report this. They cannot correct a problem unless it is exposed to the top. These types of mistakes happen worlwide and the only way to confront it is to go on up.

I have been advised to put the matter in the hands of a malpractice lawyer, before contacting them.

[Sheryl]

I am still at something of a loss due to not knowing the type of procedure nor the injury sustained. In terms of malpractice, the latter is important. If it is just a bad bruise or hematoma, the expense involved in legal action will hardly be worth it as even in a best case scenario damages wouldn't approach the legal fees.

Suggest you get copy of all records ASAP before any conveniently get 'lost" or altered. Go directly to the medical record office for this.

You can also consider reporting the incident to the JCI (Joint Commission International, which accredits hospitals). http://www.jointcommissioninternational.org/About-JCI/

http://www.jointcommissioninternational.org/asia-pacific/

Bumrungrad is JCI accredited and JCI has an interest in any issues of quality in hospitals it accredits.

[smallbear]

but I spent 4,000 B for good advice from a lawyer and he told me that Thailand does not recognise punitive Damage laws, so it was not worth my while taking them to court

Your case sounds quite frightening. Sorry to hear about it. The fact that the doctor corrected the mistake could be applauded, but the matter is not as simple as that - your life was at risk, through negligence, and frankly it's too late. It should not happen in the first place, and corrective action needs to be continually applied in order to prevent accidents happening. We see this proactive stance in the Western world, but it does not happen in Thailand. People do not 'question'.

I think increasingly so, since living here, that the standard practice in Thailand is to leave things to chance. Communication is often poor, even between Thais, and people sometimes act in a negligent and careless way. One only has to look at the accidents on the roads and the fact that very little, if anything, is done to correct the problem.

The medical care is surprisingly lax, even though on the face of things the hospital presents a first-rate image. It's easy to present that image but when one discusses medical problems with the doctors, they seem to lack the ability to get to the finer detail of things.

I know that care in the developed world often has its problems and I accept that problems will always occur, but the difference is that corrective action is carried out in the West, in order to prevent recurrence. We can rely on a functional legal system to fall back on, but here the legal system is mostly dysfunctional. This then inhibits the incentive to resolve problems, because there's little or no redress.

Thanks for writing back about your problems, Thaipauly.

[smallbear]

You can also consider reporting the incident to the JCI (Joint Commission International, which accredits hospitals). http://www.jointcomm....org/About-JCI/

http://www.jointcomm...g/asia-pacific/

Bumrungrad is JCI accredited and JCI has an interest in any issues of quality in hospitals it accredits.

Thanks Sheryl, for this information. Yes, I appreciate your point about not knowing the details, but I deliberately wanted to avoid giving details of what they were, because it is my personal information. Apologies for that.

May I ask if you are a healthcare specialist and if so if you are based here?

[MegaRanter]

I once was in the office with one the best you get referred to in Bumrun , he was asking me to do a CT after I complained of pain in the abdomen, I thought he was over reacting and was thinking for a whole minute if i should handover 12 large ones for it, he just got on the phone and was yapping away with a golf buddy while I waited to tell him 'no thanks'.

I hate going to the doctors anyway, they have not brought down my BP to normal range for ten years and no reason and I as fit as a horse.

[smallbear]

he just got on the phone and was yapping away with a golf buddy while I waited to tell him 'no thanks'.

This is interesting because I have noticed in the two Thai hospitals I've used, Samitivej and Bumrungrad, that the doctors' mobile phones are often ringing and interrupting the conversation. I don't like it very much. I know the calls are often medically related, but it's still inconvenient. This was happening yesterday, when I went back to show him the injury they'd caused.

I also find that Thais in a professional position do not always give their full attention whilst one is in dialogue with them, and easily get distracted, speaking to others and also serving other customers at the same time, instead of dealing with a single customer at a time.

[smallbear]

Just a bit of further advice for anyone in a similar position who has been at the receiving end of the Thai medical standards. The best thing before entering into discussions with the hospital is to get legal advice. Although the legal system in Thailand does not offer much protection by Western standards, there are various avenues with which to obtain justice and although cost is an issue, if people do pursue claims, it can only help to improve standards.

The Thai Medical Council's number is 02-5901880. The web site address www.tmc.or.th but is only in Thai.

[alfieconn]

he just got on the phone and was yapping away with a golf buddy while I waited to tell him 'no thanks'.

This is interesting because I have noticed in the two Thai hospitals I've used, Samitivej and Bumrungrad, that the doctors' mobile phones are often ringing and interrupting the conversation. I don't like it very much. I know the calls are often medically related, but it's still inconvenient. This was happening yesterday, when I went back to show him the injury they'd caused.

I also find that Thais in a professional position do not always give their full attention whilst one is in dialogue with them, and easily get distracted, speaking to others and also serving other customers at the same time, instead of dealing with a single customer at a time.

I once rang a doctor and after me waffling on for 2 minutes he stopped me and said could he ring me back as he was in the middle of an operation, that is the gods honest truth, amazing

[Sheryl]

Just a bit of further advice for anyone in a similar position who has been at the receiving end of the Thai medical standards. The best thing before entering into discussions with the hospital is to get legal advice. Although the legal system in Thailand does not offer much protection by Western standards, there are various avenues with which to obtain justice and although cost is an issue, if people do pursue claims, it can only help to improve standards.

The Thai Medical Council's number is 02-5901880. The web site address www.tmc.or.th but is only in Thai.

Sounds like you have really done your homework on this and are pursuing it seriously. It would be a great help if you could let us know the final outcome asd this issue often arises (and by no means specific to just that particular hospital)

[smallbear]

It would be a great help if you could let us know the final outcome asd this issue often arises (and by no means specific to just that particular hospital)

Yes, I shall certainly do that for the benefit of other patients. I have found out some quite shocking facts today but will digest them properly and report back.

[Bagwan]

After complaining of a persistent ache in my nether regions and naughty bits to a doctor at a Pattaya hospital, he blandly informed me that I was having too much sex. I was so dumbfounded that like a News of the World reporter might have written, I made my excuses and left. I took myself off to Bumrungrad where I saw a very attractive young lady doctor who advised a consultation with a specialist. This was just as well because I fear that if she had examined me I would have enjoyed it a tad too much. The usual assumption that I am a complete idiot was made and and that I needed an escort to show me the way to another department. Once there, I was sat down in front of 'an eminence' and explained my discomfort and what the Pattaya quack had diagnosed. The specialist nearly fell off his chair laughing and then told me that it was impossible for anybody to have too much sex. I added to the hilarity by saying that I agreed with him but it was necessary to have sufficient. When we had stopped laughing he said he couldn't understand why I was in his consulting room after all, he was a Neurologist not an Urologist. I made my own way to the Urology department for fear that I might be conducted to Maternity.

Is Bumrungrad all that it cracks itself up to be and value for money? Not in my dozen or so experiences there. I only go there to consult with somebody I like very much on a personal level and have total professional respect for who will write private prescriptions to save me being ripped off by the in-house pharmacy.

[smallbear]

Is Bumrungrad all that it cracks itself up to be and value for money? Not in my dozen or so experiences there.

As is shown with my case, Bumrungrad's standards are far from being acceptable. If it were just the misunderstandings such as urology and neurology, that would be one thing, but having surgery performed by someone who hasn't been sufficiently taught what to do, is another.

In view of the typical low standards of communication and safety, I find these Thai hospitals to be very disconcerting. I do not feel that they place a high value on patients' health because they leave too much to chance and do little to resolve the matter.

[Sheryl]

My understanding from your initial post is that you had a diagnostic procedure 9ultrasound with contrast), not surgery?

[sambai]

after all, he was a Neurologist not an Urologist. I made my own way to the Urology department for fear that I might be conducted to Maternity.

Is Bumrungrad all that it cracks itself up to be and value for money? Not in my dozen or so experiences there. I only go there to consult with somebody I like very much on a personal level and have total professional respect for who will write private prescriptions to save me being ripped off by the in-house pharmacy.

I had a similar situation to what you say. The representative making the booking for me insisted that I needed a urologist, even though I said that I had a problem with feeling in certain areas. I had done a lot of reading up beforehand and knew about the test that can be done, a neurology specialism. I just couldn't get her to make the booking so in the end I canceled it and went along in person to see a general doctor first. I got the visit to the neurologist through him but the language difficulty was a problem and he didn't know about the tests that I had read about on the medical web sites. I gave up in the end and went back home to get proper treatment.

Actually I have never been able to get the two doctors I've seen at Bumrungrad to take my problem seriously. I always felt that they just wanted to get me out of the consulting room as quickly as possible. The pain I had was put down to imagination.

I feel that they are all about "show" and not about leading the way in medical care.

[sambai]

My understanding from your initial post is that you had a diagnostic procedure 9ultrasound with contrast), not surgery?

What difference does it make? Whatever it is that the OP's had has caused him injury. either way, it's unacceptable

[CaptHaddock]

My understanding from your initial post is that you had a diagnostic procedure 9ultrasound with contrast), not surgery?

What difference does it make? Whatever it is that the OP's had has caused him injury. either way, it's unacceptable

One point for future reference: don't go to the doctor alone, especially not for a procedure. Bring someone who is knowledgeable, smart, and assertive, if you know such a person.

In the US doctors and hospitals kill approximately 100,000 patients per year through treatment errors, which is more than gunshot and highway deaths combined.

[smallbear]

One point for future reference: don't go to the doctor alone, especially not for a procedure. Bring someone who is knowledgeable, smart, and assertive, if you know such a person.

In the US doctors and hospitals kill approximately 100,000 patients per year through treatment errors, which is more than gunshot and highway deaths combined.

Thanks. I shan't be going back to Bumrungrad again, and as a result I doubt that I'll entrust the Thai hospitals with any serious matters again.

The difference of course is that US has a functioning legal system that hopefully offers some recourse. In Thailand there is a dysfunctional legal system that service providers are able to hide behind, viz-a-viz the signing away of patients' rights at Bumrungrad prior to undergoing any procedure.

[elektrified]

Sorry to hear about your experience. I think to try and gain some satisfaction go all the way to the top and report this. They cannot correct a problem unless it is exposed to the top. These types of mistakes happen worlwide and the only way to confront it is to go on up.

I have been advised to put the matter in the hands of a malpractice lawyer, before contacting them.

You are wasting your time (and money). TIT, not the West. Get over it.

[ktamp]

I think it is a bit unfair to write an entire hospital and an entire country's medical system over a mistake. Yes it shouldn't have happened. But you are going to encounter bad doctors and malpractice in every country. I love the gynecologist I see at bumrungrad but I did not care for the hematologist so I quit seeing him. I had a major surgery in March of 2010 in the US by a doctor reknowned and famous in this field and it was botched. It was a physician here in thailand that discovered the problem and I had it corrected in March of 2011. I had the exact same surgery here by a thai surgeon and my outcome was much different. In the US, this supposed renown surgeon treated me like I was nuts and that I was complaining simply for more pain medication. It was the physicians in thailand that took the time to listen to my concerns and accurately diagnose the problem and correct it. I have a rare cancer causing syndrome. Anytime I meet a new doctor at bangkok pattaya hospital, they will have googled it before my appointment. I appreciate their frankness in that they know little about it but do take the time to learn about it before I come in. They make sure all tests are done according to the recommendation of my geneticist and the results are sent to my physicians in the states.

You had a bad experience and for that I am truly sorry. I was very sick for an entire year after my botched surgery. But IMO, you encountered a bad physician, not a bad hospital. I had a gyn surgery at bumrungrad and the physician and staff were nothing short of compassionate and professional.

[GreenSnapper]

Really scary things to read here.

Considering that Bumrungrad is supposed to be the top address in Thailand.

What do you guys suggest in case of non-trivial medical issues here?

Fly to Singapore or KL instead?

[Sheryl]

In all the private hospitals here, doctors enjoy an enormous degree of autonomy....there is little or no oversight by the hospital on their practice. (This is also the case in many other countries). Nursing care is supervised, but the doctors are more like independent contractors who use the hospital's facilities.

There are many excellent doctors at Bumrungrad, just as there are in many other hospitals here. But there are also less competent ones, and as I often say, there is no such thing as a hospital where all the doctors are good.

There is more in the way of oversight in government teaching hospitals, because more senior physicians supervise the work of interns and residents. This has its own pluses and minuses, of course.

[Douggie Style]

The missus finally agreed to have a sleep apnea study (at my urging lol) via this hospital.

She dutifully went to the hospital and had all these sticky sensors carefully placed all over her body by these 2 technicians with those white lab coats, with a cradle of wires feeding back into a computer.

The technicians stayed with her and monitored the data all night.

The next day she excitedly asked about the results and was told there was no data...they forgot to plug the cradle in to the computer..

She is Thai....i think u need to be a good judge of character here and do some research on the person, in the west the standards aim to bring all practitioners up to a certain minimum standard...but here it is really up to the individual character

Edited August 2, 2011 by Douggie Style

[cheeryble]

I'm sorry you had some discomfort. but

The difference of course is that US has a functioning legal system that hopefully offers some recourse.

The fact is the US legal and health systems are so expensive as to be an outrage. Even if you win one of the claims that everyone and their dog seems to think is normal to bring your lawyer will take a third or half. You think that's OK? I hope so because you're paying for it with every service you receive including the outrageous healthcare

bills. Your attitude of sue sue sue is a burden on all your fellow citizens except the lawyers. and you and your grandmother are paying through the nose for it, and as a previous poster mentioned it doesn't stop a considerable number of messups.

In trying to make everything so perfectly safe, test absolutely everything with no possibility of death the US health costs mean people have to work themselves to death while they're still alive. And still the US figures, which it's citizens automatically think are top, are measurably, not you come rather low.....in anything except obesity.

http://www.guardian....-of-world-obama

If you think your consultant did not get the message why not just follow information theory.......the tighter the feedback the more intelligent the system......and write your complaints in detail to people that count?

In Thailand there is a dysfunctional legal system

I've found it reasonable, and pretty timely and affordable.

that service providers are able to hide behind, viz-a-viz the signing away of patients' rights at Bumrungrad prior to undergoing any procedure.

You didn't sign of your own free will?

Edited August 7, 2011 by cheeryble

[cheeryble]

There are many excellent doctors at Bumrungrad, just as there are in many other hospitals here. But there are also less competent ones, and as I often say, there is no such thing as a hospital where all the doctors are good.

Think you hit the nail on the head Sheryl. You certainly get fine ones but it does seem to me you have to keep a weather eye on even professionals here.

I for one have had serious medical things missed as you know and a potentially deadly thyroid biopsy was left on a desk for a week and would have stayed there if I hadn't chased it.

As for working with numbers things get worse. I can remember two talks with lawyers. One simply could not keep up when I got into even a modicum of detail (It's making my head hurt), and just recently my lawyer who seems smart in most every way asked me to go and see the surveyor again (phone calls and a return trip of an hour or two) to get a partial area of a land plot for a contract. I said You really really need it? Yes. OK I'll go Monday. A minute later I said Wait a minute, if you add these two figures and subtract this one you've got your answer. 30 seconds. Ahh I'm no good at that stuff she said.

Once again thanks for past support Sheryl

Cheeryble

Edited August 7, 2011 by cheeryble