Ban On Non-Eu Foreign Spouses Under The Age Of 21 Entering The Uk Is Unlawful

[Guest jonzboy]

A government ban on non-EU foreign spouses under the age of 21 entering the UK is unlawful, judges have ruled.

The ruling by the Supreme Court is a major blow to an immigration policy designed to stop forced marriages.

The rule, introduced in 2008, meant a foreign husband or wife from outside the EU could not join their partner in the UK if they were under 21 years old.

The court said that the rule was unjustified because it interfered with the human rights of couples.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15272121

[ThaiVisaExpress]

Great news

[Contractor]

Great news

Not for those for whom the ban was designed to protect perhaps.

Immigration through arranged/forced marriages (whether for religious or financial reasons) can lead to suffering and abuse, and I can see why the Government was trying to do something about it.

Edited October 12, 2011 by Contractor

[bangkockney]

Except there was no empirical evidence to support such a ban. Nor for the exemption given to members of HM Forces.

If you believe in public policy based on evidence then this is a good victory.

Great news

Not for those for whom the ban was designed to protect perhaps.

Immigration through arranged/forced marriages (whether for religious or financial reasons) can lead to suffering and abuse, and I can see why the Government was trying to do something about it.

[Kadafi]

Great news, I have personally felt the effects of this stupid rule. Even with a young child (with a british passport) along with myself, my partner was refused to settle in the UK at 19 years old and the home office told us all to go and live together in Thailand. Not a forced marriage but they dont care, they just want to keep firm on the 21 age limit regardless of the situation and how many family lives they ruin in the meantime. They have been getting around the human rights act by using the same refusal, that the couple could continue family life with minimal hardship caused by living in the partners home Country (that is what they did to us).

[potter09]

The link to Supreme Court's judgment in this regard is below:

http://www.bailii.or...SC/2011/45.html

It is a victory for Article 8 rights.

[Thongkorn]

great news now all the old men can bring in there eye candy, or maybe the girls will just say they are helping the aged ,

[manarak]

Great news

Not for those for whom the ban was designed to protect perhaps.

Immigration through arranged/forced marriages (whether for religious or financial reasons) can lead to suffering and abuse, and I can see why the Government was trying to do something about it.

so... forced marriage is ok from 21 and up??

putting a ban based on age was nonsense.

[Contractor]

Great news

Not for those for whom the ban was designed to protect perhaps.

Immigration through arranged/forced marriages (whether for religious or financial reasons) can lead to suffering and abuse, and I can see why the Government was trying to do something about it.

so... forced marriage is ok from 21 and up??

putting a ban based on age was nonsense.

Er, No, and as far as I am aware no-one has said or inferred that. The ban was to try and protect the most vulnerable - and I agree that better legislation is needed. Read the dissenting judgement of Lord Brown.

All bans and restrictions based on age can be criticised, and often are by interested parties.

Edited October 14, 2011 by Contractor

[mark131v]

Great news

Not for those for whom the ban was designed to protect perhaps.

Immigration through arranged/forced marriages (whether for religious or financial reasons) can lead to suffering and abuse, and I can see why the Government was trying to do something about it.

so... forced marriage is ok from 21 and up??

putting a ban based on age was nonsense.

Er, No, and as far as I am aware no-one has said or inferred that. The ban was to try and protect the most vulnerable - and I agree that better legislation is needed. Read the dissenting judgement of Lord Brown.

All bans and restrictions based on age can be criticised, and often are by interested parties.

Contractor I couldn't agree more,

even in Thailand there is something strange about seeing a young girl with some old fallang, you get used to seeing it but that doesn't make it right, they obviously have nothing but her lack of money in common.

You take that and take it out of Thailand and unless the couple are within a few years and look reasonably normal together then it turns into a bit of a circus.

How can a teenager move into a completely alien culture with some middle or old aged foreigner and be expected to have a normal life when everybody is looking and sniggering

I know there are exceptions to every rule but waiting for a couple of years and giving the youngster time to mature and make sure that they know what they are letting themselves into should not be a major issue, its all about protecting the vulnerable isn't it ?

[bangkockney]

Er, No, and as far as I am aware no-one has said or inferred that. The ban was to try and protect the most vulnerable - and I agree that better legislation is needed. Read the dissenting judgement of Lord Brown.

All bans and restrictions based on age can be criticised, and often are by interested parties.

Contractor I couldn't agree more,

even in Thailand there is something strange about seeing a young girl with some old fallang, you get used to seeing it but that doesn't make it right, they obviously have nothing but her lack of money in common.

You take that and take it out of Thailand and unless the couple are within a few years and look reasonably normal together then it turns into a bit of a circus.

How can a teenager move into a completely alien culture with some middle or old aged foreigner and be expected to have a normal life when everybody is looking and sniggering

I know there are exceptions to every rule but waiting for a couple of years and giving the youngster time to mature and make sure that they know what they are letting themselves into should not be a major issue, its all about protecting the vulnerable isn't it ?

Yes everyone automatically matures at 21 don't they?

Culture shock is not age dependant.

And a great bit of stereotyping there. Home Office figures for you:

Pre-Age Restriction: In 2007/08 the majority of Thai spouses were in the 31-40 years old range (40%). Contrast that with 2% in the 18-20 range and 8% in the 21-23 range. These both represent the two lowest age ranges.

After the age restriction was introduced: In 2009/10 the majority of Thai spouses were in the 31-40 years old range (44%). Contrast that with only 6% in the 21-23 age range, which is in fact the lowest.

Away from the age gap red herring and back to the issue of forced marriages: some take place within the UK with no immigrant element and some even involve British nationals being forced into marriage overseas. An arbitrary rule just for those coming to the UK is discriminatory and fails to fully tackle the issue of forced marriages.

Take a British woman aged 18 years who wants to marry a foreign national (the age restriction affects sponsors too, not just applicants). You support that she should be exiled from Britain to live with her husband or have to live apart from each other? Or indeed to put her life on hold, leave friends, family and job, moving to an EEA Member State in order to exercise her treaty rights (spot the irony)? The problem with any rule based on age is that it negatively affects genuine couples more than it protects potential victims of forced marriages, in my opinion.

Edited October 14, 2011 by bangkockney

[mark131v]

Er, No, and as far as I am aware no-one has said or inferred that. The ban was to try and protect the most vulnerable - and I agree that better legislation is needed. Read the dissenting judgement of Lord Brown.

All bans and restrictions based on age can be criticised, and often are by interested parties.

Contractor I couldn't agree more,

even in Thailand there is something strange about seeing a young girl with some old fallang, you get used to seeing it but that doesn't make it right, they obviously have nothing but her lack of money in common.

You take that and take it out of Thailand and unless the couple are within a few years and look reasonably normal together then it turns into a bit of a circus.

How can a teenager move into a completely alien culture with some middle or old aged foreigner and be expected to have a normal life when everybody is looking and sniggering

I know there are exceptions to every rule but waiting for a couple of years and giving the youngster time to mature and make sure that they know what they are letting themselves into should not be a major issue, its all about protecting the vulnerable isn't it ?

Yes everyone automatically matures at 21 don't they?

Culture shock is not age dependant.

And a great bit of stereotyping there. Home Office figures for you:

Pre-Age Restriction: In 2007/08 the majority of Thai spouses were in the 31-40 years old range (40%). Contrast that with 2% in the 18-20 range and 8% in the 21-23 range. These both represent the two lowest age ranges.

After the age restriction was introduced: In 2009/10 the majority of Thai spouses were in the 31-40 years old range (44%). Contrast that with only 6% in the 21-23 age range, which is in fact the lowest.

Away from the age gap red herring and back to the issue of forced marriages: some take place within the UK with no immigrant element and some even involve British nationals being forced into marriage overseas. An arbitrary rule just for those coming to the UK is discriminatory and fails to fully tackle the issue of forced marriages.

Take a British woman aged 18 years who wants to marry a foreign national (the age restriction affects sponsors too, not just applicants). You support that she should be exiled from Britain to live with her husband or have to live apart from each other? Or indeed to put her life on hold, leave friends, family and job, moving to an EEA Member State in order to exercise her treaty rights (spot the irony)? The problem with any rule based on age is that it negatively affects genuine couples more than it protects potential victims of forced marriages, in my opinion.

No everyone does not mature at 21 but most everyone is immature prior to 21 but to different levels

This from my perspective is not about some 18 year old British girl wanting to marry a cousin from Mumbai (though I would agree totally that they should have to wait) but about old blokes wanting to bring an 18-20 year old bar girl back home as some kind of house keeper come bed warmer.

I like many others have experienced a lot of the questions asked on this board, I have married a Thai, we have lived in UK and managed to get her and my Daughter citizenship and we are now back living in Thailand and after all that It still makes my skin crawl when I see a kid with an old man

We spent 7 years in the UK and even with only a few years between us you get the looks every now and then but we are both old enough and in my case ugly enough to take that, we have met more than enough unhappy Thais married to old men but very few of them were under 25-30.

I just see this as people trying to justify that it is OK for an older bloke (Middle to old age not 20-30) to bring a young girl back to his homeland for his gratification with little or no thought as to what is right for the Thai

For me it all keeps coming back to protecting the vulnerable and it is really unfortunate that some genuine couples get caught in the crossfire but then again if it is genuine a couple of years is not the end of the world is it?

[Kadafi]

if it is genuine a couple of years is not the end of the world is it?

yes i believe a couple of years is the end of the world, how many strong relationships could handle being in separate Countries for 2 or more years? I met my girlfriend when she was 17, me 25 (now she is 20 and im 28) and lived together in Thailand for couple years before trying to obtain a visa in England as our son needed eye surgery. She has been refused 2 times already and we are currently going for a 3rd attempt (how can it be a forced marriage when we hadnt even got married???) Our son has been living with me in england since his mother was forced out of the UK, ive had to obtain flexible working hours due to picking and dropping my son of at nursery, take days off when hes sick, hospital appointments etc..you have no idea! but how would you as you had not had to experience it. The UKBA dont give a sh**t because we are just classed as 1 of the unlucky ones who have to be effected as long as they stick to there 21 rule and dont budge as they cannot be seen to favour one couple over another, its over 21 only with no exceptions!

The refusal letters are just a joke, even though in the application we had doctors letters stating that our son requires 2 eye surgeries over the next few years, that i need to work in England to be able to provide the best possible care for our family they still just refuse the application and say we can all go and live in Thailand, ignoring doctors advice and the fact that where is the money going to come from if we are all living in thailand, where will i be gaining income? it is a clear breach of our human rights to not allow us a normal family life together and this is having a major effect on our son. The immigration judge even lied in his refusal letter in what me and my partner apparently said at the tribunal, we recorded the tribunal on our mobiles phones so we have evidence of this.

Its even worse that this rule does not apply to members of the armed forces, its over 18 for them! how come??

[mark131v]

if it is genuine a couple of years is not the end of the world is it?

yes i believe a couple of years is the end of the world, how many strong relationships could handle being in separate Countries for 2 or more years? I met my girlfriend when she was 17, me 25 (now she is 20 and im 28) and lived together in Thailand for couple years before trying to obtain a visa in England as our son needed eye surgery. She has been refused 2 times already and we are currently going for a 3rd attempt (how can it be a forced marriage when we hadnt even got married???) Our son has been living with me in england since his mother was forced out of the UK, ive had to obtain flexible working hours due to picking and dropping my son of at nursery, take days off when hes sick, hospital appointments etc..you have no idea! but how would you as you had not had to experience it. The UKBA dont give a sh**t because we are just classed as 1 of the unlucky ones who have to be effected as long as they stick to there 21 rule and dont budge as they cannot be seen to favour one couple over another, its over 21 only with no exceptions!

The refusal letters are just a joke, even though in the application we had doctors letters stating that our son requires 2 eye surgeries over the next few years, that i need to work in England to be able to provide the best possible care for our family they still just refuse the application and say we can all go and live in Thailand, ignoring doctors advice and the fact that where is the money going to come from if we are all living in thailand, where will i be gaining income? it is a clear breach of our human rights to not allow us a normal family life together and this is having a major effect on our son. The immigration judge even lied in his refusal letter in what me and my partner apparently said at the tribunal, we recorded the tribunal on our mobiles phones so we have evidence of this.

Its even worse that this rule does not apply to members of the armed forces, its over 18 for them! how come??

HM Forces are and always have been a different criteria originally because we had a lot of recruits from the former commonwealth who have been recruited because we cannot get the numbers needed from our own population. They have the option to bring their families with them and I also know a few lads in my old unit who had wives from Thailand in the RM it is fairly common and has been for ages in the Army there are massive numbers of Fijian, Jamaicans and other Caribbean lads and there families and as far as I am concerned it is fair in that the chance of exploitation or arranged marriages are virtually unknown

I feel for you in your situation and that was why I wrote that innocent genuine people get caught up in this and that is absolutely <deleted> and I think maybe there should be some flexibility in the system especially if the age gap is similar.

Apparently according to the report the High court does not think there will be an issue with exploitation of vulnerable young girls brought into Europe by old blokes either so it will probably be changing soon anyway, I appreciate it will not be soon enough for you and I genuinely hope you can get something sorted for your Missus and kids sake, good luck

[MAJIC]

mark131v' timestamp='1318582712' post='4764873']

Not for those for whom the ban was designed to protect perhaps.

Immigration through arranged/forced marriages (whether for religious or financial reasons) can lead to suffering and abuse, and I can see why the Government was trying to do something about it.

so... forced marriage is ok from 21 and up??

putting a ban based on age was nonsense.

Er, No, and as far as I am aware no-one has said or inferred that. The ban was to try and protect the most vulnerable - and I agree that better legislation is needed. Read the dissenting judgement of Lord Brown.

All bans and restrictions based on age can be criticised, and often are by interested parties.

Contractor I couldn't agree more,

even in Thailand there is something strange about seeing a young girl with some old fallang, you get used to seeing it but that doesn't make it right, they obviously have nothing but her lack of money in common.

You take that and take it out of Thailand and unless the couple are within a few years and look reasonably normal together then it turns into a bit of a circus.

How can a teenager move into a completely alien culture with some middle or old aged foreigner and be expected to have a normal life when everybody is looking and sniggering

I know there are exceptions to every rule but waiting for a couple of years and giving the youngster time to mature and make sure that they know what they are letting themselves into should not be a major issue, its all about protecting the vulnerable isn't it ?

MAJIC

The only thing that's strange, is how often the younger men ,start playing the Jealousy and Moralistic Claptrap,

Because an Older man and a Younger woman have an arrangement that suits them,it's wrong, seems to me you want everyone to think like you!

Perhaps you need to examine your subconscious motives,and darkest thoughts, and admit to yourself,that Vanity dictates that the younger pretty Girls, should be exclusively gazing in your direction!

Anyway <deleted> has it got to do with anyone else,except the couple concerned,if they are happy with the situation,then what's your problem? if the sight of the couple offends you,then don't look.simple really eh!

Would you say the same thing about a 30 year old women and a 55 year old man?...... World History is full of Young women and Older men Relationships.

And if you are lucky enough to have a long life, you will also be an old man one day.

Your argument crops up on Thai Visa regular as clockwork,it's become a boring cliche!

No wonder the EU Courts have ruled: The Ban on Foreign Spouses under 21 years old is unlawful. That doesnt give the Young men a chance to bring their Spouses in either.

Edited October 14, 2011 by MAJIC

[mark131v]

MAJIC

The only thing that's strange, is how often the younger men ,start playing the Jealousy and Moralistic Claptrap,

Because an Older man and a Younger woman have an arrangement that suits them,it's wrong, seems to me you want everyone to think like you!

Perhaps you need to examine your subconscious motives,and darkest thoughts, and admit to yourself,that Vanity dictates that the younger pretty Girls, should be exclusively gazing in your direction!

Anyway <deleted> has it got to do with anyone else,except the couple concerned,if they are happy with the situation,then what's your problem? if the sight of the couple offends you,then don't look.simple really eh!

Would you say the same thing about a 30 year old women and a 55 year old man?...... World History is full of Young women and Older men Relationships.

And if you are lucky enough to have a long life, you will also be an old man one day.

Your argument crops up on Thai Visa regular as clockwork,it's become a boring cliche!

No wonder the EU Courts have ruled: The Ban on Foreign Spouses under 21 years old is unlawful. That doesnt give the Young men a chance to bring their Spouses in either.

MAJIC

did you read the title? do you know what we are talking about? or are you just a bit defensive maybe?

My point is that a kid of 18-20 is vulnerable, you take them out of their culture away from their family to the other side of the world with some older bloke who they have nothing in common with and you think this is OK because you have an agreement? well sorry I dont think that is right and you know what, that will never change no matter how old and desperate I get

No need for me to look at my subconscios mate and I certainy aint jealous, if it is wrong it is wrong. I have absolutely no issue with old blokes having younger wives but I will always have an issue with old blokes taking advantage of 18-20 year old kids and using money as a weapon for sexual kicks and it is always interesting to hear someone like you try to justify this and talk like everyone is the same as you and because your older it is suddenly alright

You want to live in LOS with a 20 year old no issues, when it goes wrong she can go home and take you to the cleaners, not really an option on the other side of the world especially if you dont understand the language or the culture

ps MAJIC I dont know if you have kids but if you do would you think it was OK for yours? I wouldnt but maybe its because I am not as old as you, then again maybe not

[mark131v]

MAJIC

'Perhaps you need to examine your subconscious motives,and darkest thoughts, and admit to yourself,that Vanity dictates that the younger pretty Girls, should be exclusively gazing in your direction!'

'World History is full of Young women and Older men Relationships'

these quotes say a lot about you, I always get a bit uncomfortable when people start talking about subconscious and darkest thoughts, by the ways girls used to marry at 13 and 14 in the past and still do in some of the shiteholes I have spent time, doesnt make it right though!

[7by7]

The immigration judge even lied in his refusal letter in what me and my partner apparently said at the tribunal, we recorded the tribunal on our mobiles phones so we have evidence of this.

I don't know what the judge said or what you recorded; but I do know that you lied on her visit visa application and entry to the UK; because you admitted doing so several times in this topic

Reason is in our visit application we stated i have an air conditioning work contract in england which will last between 3-4 months. I do not know the exact date the contract will finish so would rather book a one way ticket and sort out the return details in england nearer the time.........

We stated on my (sic) visa application that i would be working in England for a period of 3-4 months until an air conditioning contract finished..........

Well i booked then one way ticket and did get asked as we were boarding the plane, they just asked what our relationship was and why we didnt have a return ticket. I just replied that she was my gf and i would be purchasing a return ticket in england as im unsure of the exact date of return..........

As i said i booked my gf on just a one way ticket and told immagration i would be buying the return ticket in england as its cheaper

As I said to you here

Comparing your OP and some of your previous posts it is now fairly obvious that there was no intention for her to leave the UK at the end of her visit visa. Had you been upfront about your intentions from the start, there are other types of entry clearance that, given the circumstances, she may have been entitled to which would have given her 12 months in the UK with the entitlement to extend her leave, or even apply for indefinite leave, at the end of that period.

Whilst I have every sympathy for those genuine couples who have been victims of this bad regulation, lying on a visa application and to immigration officers is not the way to get around it!

IMHO, all your difficulties stem from the fact that her original visit visa and entry to the UK was obtained by use of deception.

[Kadafi]

The immigration judge even lied in his refusal letter in what me and my partner apparently said at the tribunal, we recorded the tribunal on our mobiles phones so we have evidence of this.

I don't know what the judge said or what you recorded; but I do know that you lied on her visit visa application and entry to the UK; because you admitted doing so several times in this topic

Reason is in our visit application we stated i have an air conditioning work contract in england which will last between 3-4 months. I do not know the exact date the contract will finish so would rather book a one way ticket and sort out the return details in england nearer the time.........

We stated on my (sic) visa application that i would be working in England for a period of 3-4 months until an air conditioning contract finished..........

Well i booked then one way ticket and did get asked as we were boarding the plane, they just asked what our relationship was and why we didnt have a return ticket. I just replied that she was my gf and i would be purchasing a return ticket in england as im unsure of the exact date of return..........

As i said i booked my gf on just a one way ticket and told immagration i would be buying the return ticket in england as its cheaper

As I said to you here

Comparing your OP and some of your previous posts it is now fairly obvious that there was no intention for her to leave the UK at the end of her visit visa. Had you been upfront about your intentions from the start, there are other types of entry clearance that, given the circumstances, she may have been entitled to which would have given her 12 months in the UK with the entitlement to extend her leave, or even apply for indefinite leave, at the end of that period.

Whilst I have every sympathy for those genuine couples who have been victims of this bad regulation, lying on a visa application and to immigration officers is not the way to get around it!

IMHO, all your difficulties stem from the fact that her original visit visa and entry to the UK was obtained by use of deception.

where did i admit to lying on the application???

[7by7]

OK, you have never openly admitted it, but in this post you said.

The refusal letter states we could easily continue our family life together back in Thailand, which is untrue as

I work, own a property in England and thats the only way I can support them.

(my emphasis)

In this post you said

My property is what is giving us somewhere to live, something we wont have in Thailand if i was to quit my job and move over there

(My emphasis)

Which is a bit different to what you say you put in her visit application and told immigration on entering the UK about a short term UK contract and you all returning to Thailand when it was finished!

If memory serves, a search of all your posts on this matter will find other examples where you contradict yourself.

[MAJIC]

MAJIC

The only thing that's strange, is how often the younger men ,start playing the Jealousy and Moralistic Claptrap,

Because an Older man and a Younger woman have an arrangement that suits them,it's wrong, seems to me you want everyone to think like you!

Perhaps you need to examine your subconscious motives,and darkest thoughts, and admit to yourself,that Vanity dictates that the younger pretty Girls, should be exclusively gazing in your direction!

Anyway <deleted> has it got to do with anyone else,except the couple concerned,if they are happy with the situation,then what's your problem? if the sight of the couple offends you,then don't look.simple really eh!

Would you say the same thing about a 30 year old women and a 55 year old man?...... World History is full of Young women and Older men Relationships.

And if you are lucky enough to have a long life, you will also be an old man one day.

Your argument crops up on Thai Visa regular as clockwork,it's become a boring cliche!

No wonder the EU Courts have ruled: The Ban on Foreign Spouses under 21 years old is unlawful. That doesnt give the Young men a chance to bring their Spouses in either.

MAJIC

did you read the title? do you know what we are talking about? or are you just a bit defensive maybe?

My point is that a kid of 18-20 is vulnerable, you take them out of their culture away from their family to the other side of the world with some older bloke who they have nothing in common with and you think this is OK because you have an agreement? well sorry I dont think that is right and you know what, that will never change no matter how old and desperate I get

No need for me to look at my subconscios mate and I certainy aint jealous, if it is wrong it is wrong. I have absolutely no issue with old blokes having younger wives but I will always have an issue with old blokes taking advantage of 18-20 year old kids and using money as a weapon for sexual kicks and it is always interesting to hear someone like you try to justify this and talk like everyone is the same as you and because your older it is suddenly alright

You want to live in LOS with a 20 year old no issues, when it goes wrong she can go home and take you to the cleaners, not really an option on the other side of the world especially if you dont understand the language or the culture

ps MAJIC I dont know if you have kids but if you do would you think it was OK for yours? I wouldnt but maybe its because I am not as old as you, then again maybe not

Yes Mark! I did read the Topic Title,and did you read ? in the Thread, that age discrimination with the relationships that has been discussed here,has now been overturned by the European Courts as illegal Discrimination.

To be perfectly honest my wife's age is nowhere remotely near the age group under dicussion and what you consider vulnerable,and still there is the narrow minded Bigots,with their Moralistic viewpoint ,that everbody should adhere to what they decide is acceptable in Society,and their Judgemental outdated views. i.e the Male ideally should be only 2 or 3 years older than the Female,that idea is just as ridiculous as expecting people to get Married and stay together into a ripe old age,in often a loveless Marriage.

From my observations,the Young women are in general treated very well by the Older men,as the old adage goes "Better to be an old mans Darling than a Young mans Slave" (of course there are exceptions to that)

some people are very strait-laced, and can't accept that within the law,people should be allowed to make their own personal choices,without being Pilloried,by ancient rules of an outdated Society.

As for my Daughter i'm sure she will make her own choice when the times comes,whether I like it or not? which is usually the case! with Youth.

I take your point that a Young woman may be out of her depth on the other side of the World,but that also applies to immature older women.

Edited October 15, 2011 by MAJIC

[mark131v]

MAJIC

The only thing that's strange, is how often the younger men ,start playing the Jealousy and Moralistic Claptrap,

Because an Older man and a Younger woman have an arrangement that suits them,it's wrong, seems to me you want everyone to think like you!

Perhaps you need to examine your subconscious motives,and darkest thoughts, and admit to yourself,that Vanity dictates that the younger pretty Girls, should be exclusively gazing in your direction!

Anyway <deleted> has it got to do with anyone else,except the couple concerned,if they are happy with the situation,then what's your problem? if the sight of the couple offends you,then don't look.simple really eh!

Would you say the same thing about a 30 year old women and a 55 year old man?...... World History is full of Young women and Older men Relationships.

And if you are lucky enough to have a long life, you will also be an old man one day.

Your argument crops up on Thai Visa regular as clockwork,it's become a boring cliche!

No wonder the EU Courts have ruled: The Ban on Foreign Spouses under 21 years old is unlawful. That doesnt give the Young men a chance to bring their Spouses in either.

MAJIC

did you read the title? do you know what we are talking about? or are you just a bit defensive maybe?

My point is that a kid of 18-20 is vulnerable, you take them out of their culture away from their family to the other side of the world with some older bloke who they have nothing in common with and you think this is OK because you have an agreement? well sorry I dont think that is right and you know what, that will never change no matter how old and desperate I get

No need for me to look at my subconscios mate and I certainy aint jealous, if it is wrong it is wrong. I have absolutely no issue with old blokes having younger wives but I will always have an issue with old blokes taking advantage of 18-20 year old kids and using money as a weapon for sexual kicks and it is always interesting to hear someone like you try to justify this and talk like everyone is the same as you and because your older it is suddenly alright

You want to live in LOS with a 20 year old no issues, when it goes wrong she can go home and take you to the cleaners, not really an option on the other side of the world especially if you dont understand the language or the culture

ps MAJIC I dont know if you have kids but if you do would you think it was OK for yours? I wouldnt but maybe its because I am not as old as you, then again maybe not

Yes Mark! I did read the Topic Title,and did you read ? in the Thread, that age discrimination with the relationships that has been discussed here,has now been overturned by the European Courts as illegal Discrimination.

To be perfectly honest my wife's age is nowhere remotely near the age group under dicussion and what you consider vulnerable,and still there is the narrow minded Bigots,with their Moralistic viewpoint ,that everbody should adhere to what they decide is acceptable in Society,and their Judgemental outdated views. i.e the Male ideally should be only 2 or 3 years older than the Female,that idea is just as ridiculous as expecting people to get Married and stay together into a ripe old age,in often a loveless Marriage.

From my observations,the Young women are in general treated very well by the Older men,as the old adage goes "Better to be an old mans Darling than a Young mans Slave" (of course there are exceptions to that)

some people are very strait-laced, and can't accept that within the law,people should be allowed to make their own personal choices,without being Pilloried,by ancient rules of an outdated Society.

As for my Daughter i'm sure she will make her own choice when the times comes,whether I like it or not? which is usually the case! with Youth.

I take your point that a Young woman may be out of her depth on the other side of the World,but that also applies to immature older women.

My view on this is very clear, I am neither narrow minded nor bigoted, I accept every thing that I see in Thailand some things I don't agree with but live and let live, I have no problems with old guys having young wives but it becomes a different issue when it involves potential for abuse

I mentioned my repulsion at seeing old men with young girls, open your eyes you sound like you have been here long enough, take a trip down walking street where you will see some repulsive old perv with a teenager and I do not mean 20s and able to make their own decisions, for me it is wrong pure and simple but in LOS this happens and in the worst case the kid can get out so I have no issue with this

The point of somebody especially an old male saying that it is OK for an 18-20 year old kid probably from the most vulnerable group in society with very little education to be taken half way around the world to a totally alien culture by some older male, essentially for his own self gratification is not right no matter which way you dice it. Its all about money and peer pressure and scum bag families and at 18-20 many, not all, are not equipped to deal with these decisions, so as far as I am concerned its wrong and the powers that be have got it wrong

As for our daughters, well I think we are both probably lucky enough that this will not be an issue but not everyone's children are so well looked after or lucky......I think we will have to agree to disagree on this subject

just thought of another thing, this is probably the first time I have ever heard anybody on Thai Visa arguing that the Human Rights laws are good for modern society, stranger and stranger?

[mark131v]

MAJIC

Just to bury the hatchet I have absolutely no problem with who marries who and at whatever age in Thailand. I dont care if you are 99 and the wife is 20 good luck to you both, the only gripe I have is the minority out there who believe it is their right, because they are comparitavely better off, to buy a young girl and then take them to the other side of the world and think that it is OK to do so at 18-20 years old. I have seen shed loads of unhappy Thai/Falang couples back in the UK but if they both choose this as adults then so be it such is life, to take an 18 year old to that sort of existance is out of order

Mark

[Arkady]

Sounds like a good decision to me. Preventing forced marriages is a good idea and this rule must have been quite effectively in that respect but it was too much of a blunt instrument that blocked applications that were not forced marriages without considering their merits. They need to work harder to establish that the couple really knew each other and had a real relationship, particularly in countries where they know forced marriage is common, which doesn't include Thailand. I agree that an 18 year uneducated Thai girl marrying a 60 year old British geezer is likely to be unhappy in the UK, or anywhere else for that matter, but there are often plenty of grounds to question such an application already.

Edited October 16, 2011 by Arkady

[potter09]

Sounds like a good decision to me. Preventing forced marriages is a good idea and this rule must have been quite effectively in that respect but it was too much of a blunt instrument that blocked applications that were not forced marriages without considering their merits. They need to work harder to establish that the couple really knew each other and had a real relationship, particularly in countries where they know forced marriage is common, which doesn't include Thailand. I agree that an 18 year uneducated Thai girl marrying a 60 year old British geezer is likely to be unhappy in the UK, or anywhere else for that matter, but there are often plenty of grounds to question such an application already.

Lord Justice Wilson with reference to the Home Secretary conlcuded that "On any view it is a sledge-hammer but she has not attempted to indentify the size of the nut." I think that sums it up nicely.

[bkk_mike]

UK Immigration keeps coming out with laws that any decent lawyer with half a brain knows would get overturned on appeal.

You have to wonder about the quality of the staff coming up with these things, and then OK-ing them and turning them into law.

There was the - you need permission from immigration to marry in the UK, unless you're getting married in an Anglican church (C of E).

It struck every Scot (Church of Scotland is Presbyterian rather than Anglican), Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist etc. as downright racist and was unsurprisingly thrown out by the courts when a Catholic woman appealed.

Even after it was overturned, immigration dragged their feet on dismantling the whole apparatus.

Then there's the one the OP talks about - where effectively you're only married in the eyes of immigration if you're both 21. (If they changed the legal age of marriage in the UK to 21, THEN it would be legal, but to keep legitimate families apart is a absolute contravention of Human Rights.) I have no doubt that forced marriages are a bad thing, but contravening human rights of others to protect kids whose own families are often complicit in their forced marriages is a step too far. (Maybe what should happen is, in the case of a forced marriage, the family of the spouse forced into the marriage, where they are complicit, should lose their UK nationality... - then at least the people being hurt by the law would have done something wrong...)

And the whole you can live in Thailand is bogus as, unless you have enough funds so that you can be self-employed you need a degree to get a visa, and experience to get a job paying enough money to stay legally because of the minimum pay rules for work permits. (Admittedly, Thailand's rules would probably also fail a Human Rights test, but there's no equivalent to the European Court that you can take it to.)

P.S. At no point was the law to protect people from marriages where the counterparts are of vastly different ages, so the whole raising of that is someone with their own agenda in the chat. It was to prevent forced marriages which are essentially to get the non-UK spouse the right to live/work in the UK from their marriage to an unwilling partner that already has UK nationality but is often of the same ethnic background as the non-UK spouse.

Edited October 16, 2011 by bkk_mike

[jrmaanda]

You are all disgustingly mean-spirited. You simply look at it from the point of view of conceivable "abuse", without stopping to think about the other side of the coin: what about the far more plausible and ordinary situation where two people of disparate ages wish to be together because they love each other and make each other happy despite your prejudices, but those prejudices and the consequent legal consequences make their happiness together practically impossible? How can your alleged fear of possible so-called abuse justify robbing any couple of what they both feel sure is genuine love? You only look at it from the ugly, jaundiced side, which is typical of you. Even some genuine cases of manipulation cannot justify interference and prohibition of real fully consensual love wherever it exists. Such love is always beyond reproach. Maybe it frightens you because it goes beyond anything you think you might experience. Now I shall await the inevitable hate mail.

Sounds like a good decision to me. Preventing forced marriages is a good idea and this rule must have been quite effectively in that respect but it was too much of a blunt instrument that blocked applications that were not forced marriages without considering their merits. They need to work harder to establish that the couple really knew each other and had a real relationship, particularly in countries where they know forced marriage is common, which doesn't include Thailand. I agree that an 18 year uneducated Thai girl marrying a 60 year old British geezer is likely to be unhappy in the UK, or anywhere else for that matter, but there are often plenty of grounds to question such an application already.

Lord Justice Wilson with reference to the Home Secretary conlcuded that "On any view it is a sledge-hammer but she has not attempted to indentify the size of the nut." I think that sums it up nicely.

[7by7]

UK Immigration keeps coming out with laws that any decent lawyer with half a brain knows would get overturned on appeal.

You have to wonder about the quality of the staff coming up with these things, and then OK-ing them and turning them into law

It is not the UKBA (or it's predecessors) that come up with these laws; it's Parliament. Home Office officials may come up with various suggestions at the request of their minister, but it's Parliament that OKs them and turns them into law!

There was the - you need permission from immigration to marry in the UK, unless you're getting married in an Anglican church (C of E).

This was due to the unique place the C of E has in English law. Various governments wanted to make marriages by non residents in the C of E subject to Certificates of Approval the same as any other marriage, but doing so would have involved so many changes to so many laws, dating back to Henry VIII, that Parliament would have needed to devote itself to nothing else for many months, possibly years! As so few non residents did marry in the C of E anyway, past governments left the situation as it was; until, as you say, an appeal to the ECJ forced a change. For the reasons already stated, abolishing the CofA was simpler and quicker than putting through the laws required to make it apply to C of E marriages.

Then there's the one the OP talks about - where effectively you're only married in the eyes of immigration if you're both 21.

In the eyes of UK law, if the marriage is legal in the country where it took place then it is legal in the UK (Foreign Marriages Act 1892). The immigration rules were changed, though, so that in spouse, fiance and partner applications, both partners, applicant and sponsor, had to be 21 or over.

This was, as mentioned by others, a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

But what should the minimum age be? The minimum age one can legally marry in the UK is 16, so should it not be that? In some countries it is even lower. I don't know if it's still the same in some US states, but in 1958 Jerry Lee Lewis caused outrage in some quarters of the UK when he was 23 and toured the UK with his 13 year old wife!

And the whole you can live in Thailand is bogus as, unless you have enough funds so that you can be self-employed you need a degree to get a visa, and experience to get a job paying enough money to stay legally because of the minimum pay rules for work permits. (Admittedly, Thailand's rules would probably also fail a Human Rights test, but there's no equivalent to the European Court that you can take it to.)

Not bogus; valid under the ECHR. The right to family life enshrined in the ECHR is a qualified right; the law of a signatory country takes precedence.

BTW, you don't need a degree to get a Thai marriage visa. Remember, too, that the immigration rules apply to all non EU immigrants, not just those from Thailand. This rule was brought in to help stop child marriages, which is mainly a sub-continent problem. Like all the immigration rules, it had to apply to all, otherwise it would definitely be discriminatory and unlawful.

This Supreme Court ruling is a step in the right direction; but no doubt the government will appeal. We will have to wait and see what happens then.

[MAJIC]

MAJIC

The only thing that's strange, is how often the younger men ,start playing the Jealousy and Moralistic Claptrap,

Because an Older man and a Younger woman have an arrangement that suits them,it's wrong, seems to me you want everyone to think like you!

Perhaps you need to examine your subconscious motives,and darkest thoughts, and admit to yourself,that Vanity dictates that the younger pretty Girls, should be exclusively gazing in your direction!

Anyway <deleted> has it got to do with anyone else,except the couple concerned,if they are happy with the situation,then what's your problem? if the sight of the couple offends you,then don't look.simple really eh!

Would you say the same thing about a 30 year old women and a 55 year old man?...... World History is full of Young women and Older men Relationships.

And if you are lucky enough to have a long life, you will also be an old man one day.

Your argument crops up on Thai Visa regular as clockwork,it's become a boring cliche!

No wonder the EU Courts have ruled: The Ban on Foreign Spouses under 21 years old is unlawful. That doesnt give the Young men a chance to bring their Spouses in either.

MAJIC

did you read the title? do you know what we are talking about? or are you just a bit defensive maybe?

My point is that a kid of 18-20 is vulnerable, you take them out of their culture away from their family to the other side of the world with some older bloke who they have nothing in common with and you think this is OK because you have an agreement? well sorry I dont think that is right and you know what, that will never change no matter how old and desperate I get

No need for me to look at my subconscios mate and I certainy aint jealous, if it is wrong it is wrong. I have absolutely no issue with old blokes having younger wives but I will always have an issue with old blokes taking advantage of 18-20 year old kids and using money as a weapon for sexual kicks and it is always interesting to hear someone like you try to justify this and talk like everyone is the same as you and because your older it is suddenly alright

You want to live in LOS with a 20 year old no issues, when it goes wrong she can go home and take you to the cleaners, not really an option on the other side of the world especially if you dont understand the language or the culture

ps MAJIC I dont know if you have kids but if you do would you think it was OK for yours? I wouldnt but maybe its because I am not as old as you, then again maybe not

Yes Mark! I did read the Topic Title,and did you read ? in the Thread, that age discrimination with the relationships that has been discussed here,has now been overturned by the European Courts as illegal Discrimination.

To be perfectly honest my wife's age is nowhere remotely near the age group under dicussion and what you consider vulnerable,and still there is the narrow minded Bigots,with their Moralistic viewpoint ,that everbody should adhere to what they decide is acceptable in Society,and their Judgemental outdated views. i.e the Male ideally should be only 2 or 3 years older than the Female,that idea is just as ridiculous as expecting people to get Married and stay together into a ripe old age,in often a loveless Marriage.

From my observations,the Young women are in general treated very well by the Older men,as the old adage goes "Better to be an old mans Darling than a Young mans Slave" (of course there are exceptions to that)

some people are very strait-laced, and can't accept that within the law,people should be allowed to make their own personal choices,without being Pilloried,by ancient rules of an outdated Society.

As for my Daughter i'm sure she will make her own choice when the times comes,whether I like it or not? which is usually the case! with Youth.

I take your point that a Young woman may be out of her depth on the other side of the World,but that also applies to immature older women.

My view on this is very clear, I am neither narrow minded nor bigoted, I accept every thing that I see in Thailand some things I don't agree with but live and let live, I have no problems with old guys having young wives but it becomes a different issue when it involves potential for abuse

I mentioned my repulsion at seeing old men with young girls, open your eyes you sound like you have been here long enough, take a trip down walking street where you will see some repulsive old perv with a teenager and I do not mean 20s and able to make their own decisions, for me it is wrong pure and simple but in LOS this happens and in the worst case the kid can get out so I have no issue with this

The point of somebody especially an old male saying that it is OK for an 18-20 year old kid probably from the most vulnerable group in society with very little education to be taken half way around the world to a totally alien culture by some older male, essentially for his own self gratification is not right no matter which way you dice it. Its all about money and peer pressure and scum bag families and at 18-20 many, not all, are not equipped to deal with these decisions, so as far as I am concerned its wrong and the powers that be have got it wrong

As for our daughters, well I think we are both probably lucky enough that this will not be an issue but not everyone's children are so well looked after or lucky......I think we will have to agree to disagree on this subject

just thought of another thing, this is probably the first time I have ever heard anybody on Thai Visa arguing that the Human Rights laws are good for modern society, stranger and stranger?

Its only strange to your blinkered way of thinking,

I said or implied nothing of the sort,

Human rights issues are a collection of seperate issues on their own,and would require a new Topic for discussing them individually,blanket coverage on any subject,does not make one totally on the side of so called Human Rights,as you seem to assume.

Please try and stick to the facts!

but as you say:best to "agree to disagree".........

[mark131v]

MAJIC

did you read the title? do you know what we are talking about? or are you just a bit defensive maybe?

My point is that a kid of 18-20 is vulnerable, you take them out of their culture away from their family to the other side of the world with some older bloke who they have nothing in common with and you think this is OK because you have an agreement? well sorry I dont think that is right and you know what, that will never change no matter how old and desperate I get

No need for me to look at my subconscios mate and I certainy aint jealous, if it is wrong it is wrong. I have absolutely no issue with old blokes having younger wives but I will always have an issue with old blokes taking advantage of 18-20 year old kids and using money as a weapon for sexual kicks and it is always interesting to hear someone like you try to justify this and talk like everyone is the same as you and because your older it is suddenly alright

You want to live in LOS with a 20 year old no issues, when it goes wrong she can go home and take you to the cleaners, not really an option on the other side of the world especially if you dont understand the language or the culture

ps MAJIC I dont know if you have kids but if you do would you think it was OK for yours? I wouldnt but maybe its because I am not as old as you, then again maybe not

Yes Mark! I did read the Topic Title,and did you read ? in the Thread, that age discrimination with the relationships that has been discussed here,has now been overturned by the European Courts as illegal Discrimination.

To be perfectly honest my wife's age is nowhere remotely near the age group under dicussion and what you consider vulnerable,and still there is the narrow minded Bigots,with their Moralistic viewpoint ,that everbody should adhere to what they decide is acceptable in Society,and their Judgemental outdated views. i.e the Male ideally should be only 2 or 3 years older than the Female,that idea is just as ridiculous as expecting people to get Married and stay together into a ripe old age,in often a loveless Marriage.

From my observations,the Young women are in general treated very well by the Older men,as the old adage goes "Better to be an old mans Darling than a Young mans Slave" (of course there are exceptions to that)

some people are very strait-laced, and can't accept that within the law,people should be allowed to make their own personal choices,without being Pilloried,by ancient rules of an outdated Society.

As for my Daughter i'm sure she will make her own choice when the times comes,whether I like it or not? which is usually the case! with Youth.

I take your point that a Young woman may be out of her depth on the other side of the World,but that also applies to immature older women.

My view on this is very clear, I am neither narrow minded nor bigoted, I accept every thing that I see in Thailand some things I don't agree with but live and let live, I have no problems with old guys having young wives but it becomes a different issue when it involves potential for abuse

I mentioned my repulsion at seeing old men with young girls, open your eyes you sound like you have been here long enough, take a trip down walking street where you will see some repulsive old perv with a teenager and I do not mean 20s and able to make their own decisions, for me it is wrong pure and simple but in LOS this happens and in the worst case the kid can get out so I have no issue with this

The point of somebody especially an old male saying that it is OK for an 18-20 year old kid probably from the most vulnerable group in society with very little education to be taken half way around the world to a totally alien culture by some older male, essentially for his own self gratification is not right no matter which way you dice it. Its all about money and peer pressure and scum bag families and at 18-20 many, not all, are not equipped to deal with these decisions, so as far as I am concerned its wrong and the powers that be have got it wrong

As for our daughters, well I think we are both probably lucky enough that this will not be an issue but not everyone's children are so well looked after or lucky......I think we will have to agree to disagree on this subject

just thought of another thing, this is probably the first time I have ever heard anybody on Thai Visa arguing that the Human Rights laws are good for modern society, stranger and stranger?

Its only strange to your blinkered way of thinking,

I said or implied nothing of the sort,

Human rights issues are a collection of seperate issues on their own,and would require a new Topic for discussing them individually,blanket coverage on any subject,does not make one totally on the side of so called Human Rights,as you seem to assume.

Please try and stick to the facts!

but as you say:best to "agree to disagree".........

MAJIC,

I am at a loss with this one I am struggling to see how that comment has got you to spit your dummy?

Are we or are we not arguing about a ruling that has been overturned by the UK High Court because it may breach human rights law? I will give you a clue I am not agreeing with it as it stands right now and you are saying it is a good thing...you know what this really is the first time I have heard arguments about this subject where lots of posters are saying it is a good thing it is usually the opposite about immigrants ruining the UK sort of stuff... <deleted> never mind

It is plain to see you and me have a whole different set of values, that's OK, I can live with that

By the way I haven't been keeping a track of what you have called me but I do recall being blinkered, narrow minded, bigoted, jealous, moralistic and judgemental..fair one I must have hit a nerve or something.. you have also said that I should examine my darkest thoughts and subconscious as all the pretty young girls should be looking at me..I cant see how thinking that 18-20 year old girls or boys, I am not sexist before you pin that one on me!!, should be protected from a small minority of older predatory males got that response

never mind have a good one