Pheu Thai And Red Shirts Do Nothing To Help Their Own

[serenitynow]

Excuse me, but for the past 18 years i have made a living from working for the mainstream press - mostly as a photographer, but in certain subjects such as the Red/Yellow conflict also as researcher and fixer (where i have refused more requests than accepted, especially from TV productions), and writing one or the other story. It is my choice that i do not want to make a living as a professional writer, even though on occasion i also write stories.

My books are my obsession, but that is not what i make a living from.

What i proved here is that indeed these stickers exist, and that this group stated to my probing that they were thoughtless, but that they help all that need help. I will hardly now retrace their steps over all provinces they worked in, just to maybe find somebody they refused to help (this is insane, i am sorry). The usual procedure is that somebody reports such an incident somewhere, and than one will follow this up, but not going on a wild goose chase searching for the needle in the haystack.

I've got absolutely nothing against you Nick and I'm really enthused that someone is covering this movement. Perhaps where some of the conflicts we have comes down to how you and others see your role. If it's as a journalist, then I think a lot of the criticisms are warranted. If it's as an analyst, then I would argue from what I have seen you have what is known as a "confirmation bias" (you're certainly not alone there Nick).

http://en.wikipedia....nfirmation_bias

OTOH if your role is more akin to the James Woods role in "Salvador" then you really ought to disclose that. It would still garner your work respect (certainly mine), but it would need to be weighed differently, taking into account the clear bias. Nothing wrong with bias, or advocacy, or even punditry in small doses, but it needs to ALWAYS be disclosed so that readers properly evaluate what they are reading.

Nothing wrong with bias, or advocacy, or even punditry in small doses, but it needs to ALWAYS be disclosed so that readers properly evaluate what they are reading.

Do you think it would be a good idea to apply this to other reporting as well - like for example the Nation and TAN articles we are served up on this forum?

Sure it would, but I think you'll find a lot of what come out of The Nation doesn't even pretend to be reporting.

[nicknostitz]

Sure it would, but I think you'll find a lot of what come out of The Nation doesn't even pretend to be reporting.

Which in some convoluted way would bring us back to Thanong's rant that initiated this debate.

I hope this discussion has now sufficiently proven, no matter what side one is on here, that he was quite wrong with his basic premise.

[whybother]

Which in some convoluted way would bring us back to Thanong's rant that initiated this debate.

I hope this discussion has now sufficiently proven, no matter what side one is on here, that he was quite wrong with his basic premise.

Which was pointed out about 450 posts ago:

Well i guess we managed to totaly discredit the Title of this thread "PTP & Red Shirts do nothing to help their own" - seems it should be renamed to "PTP & Red Shirts only want to help their own"

Justsayin

Edited November 3, 2011 by whybother

[TomnearCentral]

Sure it would, but I think you'll find a lot of what come out of The Nation doesn't even pretend to be reporting.

Which in some convoluted way would bring us back to Thanong's rant that initiated this debate.

I hope this discussion has now sufficiently proven, no matter what side one is on here, that he was quite wrong with his basic premise.

Nick, as you have been there to interview them, did you also have a chance to ask them how many hours a day they actually also make use of the boats to help the people?

This is really a honest and serious question and I am not trying to generate any new argument, just surprised that I always see the boats stationary there when I walk past (three times within the last 24 hours).

One could nearly think that they are just there for advertising purposes. Just to make it clear, I am not saying that they did not help previously in different provinces, but here I am just starting to wonder when they ever use those boats.

[Buchholz]

Sure it would, but I think you'll find a lot of what come out of The Nation doesn't even pretend to be reporting.

Which in some convoluted way would bring us back to Thanong's rant that initiated this debate.

I hope this discussion has now sufficiently proven, no matter what side one is on here, that he was quite wrong with his basic premise.

Nick, as you have been there to interview them, did you also have a chance to ask them how many hours a day they actually also make use of the boats to help the people?

This is really a honest and serious question and I am not trying to generate any new argument, just surprised that I always see the boats stationary there when I walk past (three times within the last 24 hours).

One could nearly think that they are just there for advertising purposes. Just to make it clear, I am not saying that they did not help previously in different provinces, but here I am just starting to wonder when they ever use those boats.

It could a long way in explaining why there supposedly haven't been reports of non-Reds being denied help by the boats.

.

[Moonrakers]

As long as nobody here can give me a reliable report that this particular group has indeed refused to help non-Red Shirts, all accusations here in fact are biased speculation based not on fact but hatred.

Incorrect

It's speculation based on a sticker, that has been placed voluntarily, that tells a clear and concise message. That the sticker exists is a fact, do not attempt to tell people otherwise when it is clear for everybody to see. What's more is the the message of the sticker is clear, it cannot be spun for the purpose of suiting any given agenda.

The reason/excuse then supposedly given for said sticker (it looks cool) is then so weak one would have to be very gullible and/or biased to believe the excuse without further evidence.

They clearly displayed a sticker that displayed a clear message. It's up to them to provide evidence to the contrary, it is not up to anybody else to prove they aren't doing what their own sticker says they are doing.

[tlansford]

The problem i see here is that some people made these photos, and did either not bother to get their view on this, or even worse, did not want to bother either, as they had an opportunity to score some political points.

Nick, just as an aside, what do you suppose the view of the person that displays this sign is?

it would be a closer comparison if it said, "only for Republicans"

I wasn't seeking to make a comparison. I was trying to get a handle on Nick's cognitive ability and objectivity. If he ran true to form he'd say that the white's only sign is only "cool"and to actually know what the intent of the whites only sign is you need to go talk to the guy who puit it up. Nick wisely chose not to respond to that post because there is no defense that anyone with two braincells would buy. You've run off in another direction all together, which tells me that you're just a political hack and you also wrongly think this conflict is political. Two things it is about is culture and naked power. One thing it isn't about is politics.

Serenity, when did you leave us ?? Come back.... Your other posts made sense...

[Pi Sek]

Forgot to add the link: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/508059-pheu-thai-mp-natthawut-denies-allegations-over-red-shirt-flood-relief-control/page__st__25

I haven't posted on here for a month or so, but the revelations here are harsh enough to prompt a post from me.

Despite the overt bias of the OP of this thread by The Nation's Thanong, which only encourages further division when Thailand needs unity as much as ever before, it is truly disgusting to see Thaksin's name on other peoples' donations and also to see Red Shirts exclusively helping Red Shirts.

I haven't seen any proof that prioritisation of aid is being given to Red Shirts (and aid being refused to those who are not Red Shirts); but I think it is happening in some places if Thaksin has been allowed to take credit for others' donations. If it is happening, that would also be sickening.

Weren't the Red Shirts supposed to be fighting for democracy and equal rights and all that? How can reconciliation amongst Thais succeed with this sort of attitude? It should be addressed, as reconciliation was something that every political party agreed was and is of utmost importance.

[tlansford]

They clearly displayed a sticker that displayed a clear message. It's up to them to provide evidence to the contrary, it is not up to anybody else to prove they aren't doing what their own sticker says they are doing.

Actually, it seems to me that it is only up to them to keep doing what they are doing - helping people in a flood. They certainly have no need to prove something to you, me or anyone else here.

Their location is not a secret, you guys who speak thai can go out there and talk with them. The rest can take their iphones and snap some pictures or post their own video. Careful, you risk catching them in the act of helping someone.

[yoshiwara]

A brief summary of my chat with the Red Shirt team of the controversial boat issue. I spoke with Pongpisit "Lek Bandon" Krongsaena, the chief of their community radio station and of the team, and some of his team members who i have known for quite some time.

Basically they are an independent team of the 102.75 "Wittayu Khon Thai Hua Jai Diaow Gan" community radio station. They emphasized that they are not under authority of either the UDD or the government.They have two boats with engines, which they bought themselves for 60 000 Baht each, financed by donations from listeners of the station, and helped out in the flood relief since about three months. They started helping in Phitsanulok, and then most other affected provinces. Their team consists of about 20 people.

Regarding the controversial sticker issue, they said that they had them from the beginning on their boats, mostly because they thought it looked cool, and didn't really think much about it, especially that this could become such a controversy. In the field their policy is to help anybody regardless of color, they also announce that when they go anywhere, and that during the flood there are no colors as everybody is affected.

They both help people out of their homes, and distribute donations, which they collected through their radio station themselves. Since about one or two weeks they also coordinate with the government, about where they should go.

Their basic aim is to help people, and of course they are proud to do that as Red Shirts. They also said that they already have donations collected to distribute for the cold season in Isarn villages.

They said anybody who would like to find out about them is welcome to visit them and ask questions, as they are working with transparency.

Reds are quite good at denying things. Lots of practice. At least the stickers appear to be transparent. 'Thought it looked cool'. How gullible or embedded does one have to be to buy that?

Edited November 3, 2011 by yoshiwara

[Moonrakers]

They clearly displayed a sticker that displayed a clear message. It's up to them to provide evidence to the contrary, it is not up to anybody else to prove they aren't doing what their own sticker says they are doing.

Actually, it seems to me that it is only up to them to keep doing what they are doing - helping people in a flood. They certainly have no need to prove something to you, me or anyone else here.

Their location is not a secret, you guys who speak thai can go out there and talk with them. The rest can take their iphones and snap some pictures or post their own video. Careful, you risk catching them in the act of helping someone.

Yeah, they should continue to help people.

But I don't try to veer off track, my point was perfectly clear. The evidence clearly states they have a policy of helping only red shirts. We've been fed some weaktard excuse that most of us are not buying, so the evidence remains.

And go visit them when I have a job and family etc, real smart. And why anyway? Why go speak to a source that I cannot put my faith in? Why go speak to anybody that for all I know would feed me a pack of lies?

[Siripon]

I've already told you it's taboo amongst Thai people. I'm sure you're well aware that farangs are considered outsiders by most Thai people especially where the rural areas are concerned. You're just another tool to be used in their propaganda spin machine, if anything farangs are probably easier to fool than other Thais when it comes to their mindset. Why do you think it's so easy to rip tourists off? Thai people know how to think like Thai people, if you think you know a Thai person very well, think again. My relatives once told me, if you run a business here in Thailand like you did in America, you're going to fail. You need to be quick and witty, gullibility will be the end of you. Trust me when I said us Thais don't openly bring up the subject about Red shirts unless we're certain none are around, gossip spreads really fast and it's part of fear.

Allow me to briefly bring up a comparison, a racist one even. Why are people often afraid to walk through a black neighborhood in America? Statistics show that a lot of crimes happen in those areas. I'm not saying ALL black people are dangerous and I'm not saying ALL of their neighborhoods are. It's this presumption we get by looking at the statistics based on past events, that we come to an assumption that black neighborhoods are usually dangerous. Just how a lot of people assume that middle easterners are terrorists or priests are child molesters. It's the negativity that has been built up for whatever group they belong to that people (however few or many) make these assumptions.

In relation to the Red shirts and Yellow Shirts, I would slightly compare them to the Bloods and Crips of the Americas. Wearing one particular could have a lot of things assumed about you, whether you like it or not. Whatever assumptions people have about the Red shirts, be prepared to carry the image that comes with the color. This is why I personally hate the idea of Red/Yellow shirts, even if the norm is not to conspicuously wear the colors. Again, the area in which you live in also affects the degree of presumptions, less in Bangkok and more in Udon Thani.

I applaud you Nick for taking such interest in Thailand and it's Red Shirt movement. I know that you know a lot more about them than I do but from where I'm sitting, it's a huge mess. People exploit the movement for their own benefit, hoping to gain more favor from the now government and "voicing" their opinion as a whole however ridiculous it may sound. If morality and sound reasoning does not apply to you, then the idea of "majority wins" can be applied. Meaning, if the majority thinks it's okay for corruption as long as they get something back or something unrealistic like a new 1500cc truck for all farmers. When I say "you" I meant, people in general, not you specifically Nick. The movement IMHO exploded too fast without a clear message other than to support Thaksin. It's leaders are just spouting nonsense and propaganda in their speeches without a real intellectual discussion of how to represent themselves. They're tired of the amart and elites? Be clear to give characteristics of their opponents because right now people make the assumption that "elites" are rich people.. when the very people they support are in fact elites. What else is on their plate?

Actually, i have not such a negative view or experience on Thais and Thailand - and i have lived here permanently now 18 1/2 years, after about 5 years of backpacking in Asia, and apart from 3 months in the Sukhumvit area i have always lived in Thai neighborhoods, mostly village or working class neighborhoods. People usually get ripped off that allow themselves to get ripped off. Most farang that ended being ripped to pieces here i have known have been also the ones that have left any sort of common sense at the customs desk at the airport when entering this place. As to rural places, well Thais not part of the clans are as much outsiders as farang. That is the way how things are in clan dominated societies. But that doesn't mean that there are no ways in - they are just not easy, and it means that one has to earn respect over time (which does not mean that one has to try to be "Thai", farang attempting this are usually just embarrassing themselves).

I live here like i always life - learn to accept the bad, and appreciate the good. And no - i am not getting fooled by the Red Shirt "propaganda machine". You are mistaken if you think that i get my information solely from Red Shirts, and that i have forgotten the strict rules of corroborating information, which is integral aspect of my profession. Over the years i have a built huge network of sources in almost all camps (the only camp i can think of now where i have no direct sources is inside Nevin's camp, and i don't know anyone who has, even people that went to school with him are mystified by his moves, and in the palace - the people i know who have insides in the palace will never divulge details).

I also do not have the experience that people don't discuss the Red Shirts, or the Yellow Shirts. More often than not, when people learned that i am a journo, and present during last year's crackdown and most previous events, they ask me what happened on the ground. Maybe it is just a language thing - i generally have these discussion in Thai, and not in English.

I think that comparing Reds and Yellows to Crips and Bloods is very wrong. I have no idea about Crips and Bloods other than several books i have read, and that while these gangs began as neighborhood gangs protecting the neighborhood against at the time prevalent white gangs, in the 80's with the massive influx of crack they turned into basically highly capitalist criminal enterprises, so that initiators such as Tookie Williams have turned against the gang life. You have neighborhood gangs here also in Bangkok, who often engage in criminal activities. Some of that world of course interlaces with Red and Yellow as this is simply part of Thai life, where this life does interlace with most aspects of society in this society of intrinsic patronage networks.

Red and Yellow Shirts are political groups with varied ideologies and not criminal enterprises.

I wonder why you say that their leaders "just sprout nonsense" and that there would be no "real intellectual discussion". Apart from rallies they hold countless symposiums that includes well known academics and intellectuals, there are on every level discussion groups which meet regularly. This makes for a very vibrant debate. If people here on Thaivisa would spend a fraction of time actually discussing issues with the huge variety of people that make up the Red Shirts, then maybe the discussion here on this forum would be a bit more informed, realistic and intellectually challenging.

As it is, i regularly wonder if me and many of the posters here on Thaivisa actually life in the same country.

Jatupon seems to be talking more and more nonsense. After accusing the army of wanting a 'water coup' by claiming they wanted an Emergency decree, he now says Yingluk wants to share half the blame with them if the flood measures don't work out by giving the army 5 provinces to alleviate the flood problems.

In addition he said the floods were good luck for Thailand as they have stopped enemies of the government from plotting its overthrow in December!

Perhaps he's swallowed too much dirty flood water and bacteria has reached his brain.

[koosdeboer]

Now I'm convinced that Nick is biased. He is also not realistic in thinking that when he asks people a question that they will give him an honest answer. Red villages, cool stickers and people saying lets burn Bangkok. Just for fun, doesn't mean anything.

I gave you a brief summary of an interview.

I have posted what they said.

Lacking reports of them having refused to help non-Red Shirts, i will not speculate that they lied solely based on this sticker as this would not just be highly biased but also libelous.

And thank you, i have learned just a lesson here, digesting most of the comments i have to read here i understand now why rags such as The Sun are so successful: spew hatred, and people will love to read it, and the occasional libel conviction will not make a dent in your balance.

Very interesting.

I don't think you are a bad guy Nick and good that you show that there are many good red shirts but there are a few who spoil it and I would like you to be realist to see that. I would like to see some balance.

Maybe I am wrong but if I see pictures like this what I have been told to be guys (redshirts ?) who spray black the words MAXLINER and supposedly sprayed the new text "greeetings from Dubay, Thaksin loves you" on the donated goods.

[Moonrakers]

Now I'm convinced that Nick is biased. He is also not realistic in thinking that when he asks people a question that they will give him an honest answer. Red villages, cool stickers and people saying lets burn Bangkok. Just for fun, doesn't mean anything.

I gave you a brief summary of an interview.

I have posted what they said.

Lacking reports of them having refused to help non-Red Shirts, i will not speculate that they lied solely based on this sticker as this would not just be highly biased but also libelous.

And thank you, i have learned just a lesson here, digesting most of the comments i have to read here i understand now why rags such as The Sun are so successful: spew hatred, and people will love to read it, and the occasional libel conviction will not make a dent in your balance.

Very interesting.

I don't think you are a bad guy Nick and good that you show that there are many good red shirts but there are a few who spoil it and I would like you to be realist to see that. I would like to see some balance.

Maybe I am wrong but if I see pictures like this what I have been told to be guys (redshirts ?) who spray black the words MAXLINER and supposedly sprayed the new text "greeetings from Dubay, Thaksin loves you" on the donated goods.

Probably just thoughtlessness, it looks cool!

[rixalex]

The reason/excuse then supposedly given for said sticker (it looks cool) is then so weak one would have to be very gullible and/or biased to believe the excuse without further evidence.

Incredibly weak, and the fact that Nick simply accepted this reasoning - it looks cool - as being a plausible and reasonable explanation, and the fact that he didn't respond back with "come on guys, nobody is going to buy that crap - the sticker is highly offensive and completely undermines any good work you might be doing, and furthermore, you placed it on the boats not because it looks cool - stop insulting me with that BS - but because it reflects how strongly you feel about people who are not aligned with your political view - and whether or not you really would refuse to help someone who wasn't a red, it makes little difference when that is what you are so publicly advertising", speaks volumes about Nick's position, not that it wasn't already blatantly obvious of course.

As others have said though, i actually do respect the work Nick does and would be the first to acknowledge how well informed he is. I just wish he would be a little more candid about his agenda in all this - it is after all exposed in just about every thread in which he contributes.

[serenitynow]

Nick, just as an aside, what do you suppose the view of the person that displays this sign is?

it would be a closer comparison if it said, "only for Republicans"

I wasn't seeking to make a comparison. I was trying to get a handle on Nick's cognitive ability and objectivity. If he ran true to form he'd say that the white's only sign is only "cool"and to actually know what the intent of the whites only sign is you need to go talk to the guy who puit it up. Nick wisely chose not to respond to that post because there is no defense that anyone with two braincells would buy. You've run off in another direction all together, which tells me that you're just a political hack and you also wrongly think this conflict is political. Two things it is about is culture and naked power. One thing it isn't about is politics.

Serenity, when did you leave us ?? Come back.... Your other posts made sense...

I'll bet you're the only one it didn't make sense to, and of course you needed it not to make sense in order to not respond to it. That's disingenuous.

[rubl]

begin removed ...

Regarding the controversial sticker issue, they said that they had them from the beginning on their boats, mostly because they thought it looked cool, and didn't really think much about it, especially that this could become such a controversy.

... end removed (follow link for original)

After rereading this post I started to wonder again. Rather than giving my interpretation of what you are saying here, may I ask you to elaborate a bit on the "mostly because they thought it looked cool". What do you want to suggest here, or what didn't you want to tell here?

[serenitynow]

They clearly displayed a sticker that displayed a clear message. It's up to them to provide evidence to the contrary, it is not up to anybody else to prove they aren't doing what their own sticker says they are doing.

Actually, it seems to me that it is only up to them to keep doing what they are doing - helping people in a flood. They certainly have no need to prove something to you, me or anyone else here.

Their location is not a secret, you guys who speak thai can go out there and talk with them. The rest can take their iphones and snap some pictures or post their own video. Careful, you risk catching them in the act of helping someone.

I haven't seen any evidence that they're even helping anyone in a flood even, regardless of shirt color. One poster here who observes them regularly wonders if they are only there for advertisng/showing their colors, as he's never seen the boats move. he didn't seem like he was trying to smear them and it sounded like he'd have loved to catch them in the act of helping someone. Just no luck so far.

[serenitynow]

begin removed ...

Regarding the controversial sticker issue, they said that they had them from the beginning on their boats, mostly because they thought it looked cool, and didn't really think much about it, especially that this could become such a controversy.

... end removed (follow link for original)

After rereading this post I started to wonder again. Rather than giving my interpretation of what you are saying here, may I ask you to elaborate a bit on the "mostly because they thought it looked cool". What do you want to suggest here, or what didn't you want to tell here?

This new "coolness" angle really shines a whole new light on the Red Shirt movement. If denying aid to people in a flood has a certain cool factor, just imagine how cool it would be to fire grenades into a crowded Sky Train terminal, Or to commit arson or civil insurrection. I mean, how cool is that? It's like being Marlon Brando in "The Wild One" or James Dean in "Rebel Without a Cause".

[frodo]

Jatupon seems to be talking more and more nonsense. After accusing the army of wanting a 'water coup' by claiming they wanted an Emergency decree, he now says Yingluk wants to share half the blame with them if the flood measures don't work out by giving the army 5 provinces to alleviate the flood problems.

In addition he said the floods were good luck for Thailand as they have stopped enemies of the government from plotting its overthrow in December!

Perhaps he's swallowed too much dirty flood water and bacteria has reached his brain.

Jatuporn really said the floods were good for Thailand? Freedom of speech is one thing, but absolute lunacy is another. If he really said that the proper authorities should be notified and an escort to a mental asylum would be in order.

[Gweiloman]

They clearly displayed a sticker that displayed a clear message. It's up to them to provide evidence to the contrary, it is not up to anybody else to prove they aren't doing what their own sticker says they are doing.

Actually, it seems to me that it is only up to them to keep doing what they are doing - helping people in a flood. They certainly have no need to prove something to you, me or anyone else here.

Their location is not a secret, you guys who speak thai can go out there and talk with them. The rest can take their iphones and snap some pictures or post their own video. Careful, you risk catching them in the act of helping someone.

I haven't seen any evidence that they're even helping anyone in a flood even, regardless of shirt color. One poster here who observes them regularly wonders if they are only there for advertisng/showing their colors, as he's never seen the boats move. he didn't seem like he was trying to smear them and it sounded like he'd have loved to catch them in the act of helping someone. Just no luck so far.

Poor confused soul. I guess the flooding must be really getting to you. Have you forgotten that this whole debate about the boat stickers started with a picture of the boat, with victims in it?

[TomnearCentral]

They clearly displayed a sticker that displayed a clear message. It's up to them to provide evidence to the contrary, it is not up to anybody else to prove they aren't doing what their own sticker says they are doing.

Actually, it seems to me that it is only up to them to keep doing what they are doing - helping people in a flood. They certainly have no need to prove something to you, me or anyone else here.

Their location is not a secret, you guys who speak thai can go out there and talk with them. The rest can take their iphones and snap some pictures or post their own video. Careful, you risk catching them in the act of helping someone.

I haven't seen any evidence that they're even helping anyone in a flood even, regardless of shirt color. One poster here who observes them regularly wonders if they are only there for advertisng/showing their colors, as he's never seen the boats move. he didn't seem like he was trying to smear them and it sounded like he'd have loved to catch them in the act of helping someone. Just no luck so far.

Poor confused soul. I guess the flooding must be really getting to you. Have you forgotten that this whole debate about the boat stickers started with a picture of the boat, with victims in it?

Who knows, maybe that first photo with the victims in it was fake and photoshopped?

[Gweiloman]

Actually, it seems to me that it is only up to them to keep doing what they are doing - helping people in a flood. They certainly have no need to prove something to you, me or anyone else here.

Their location is not a secret, you guys who speak thai can go out there and talk with them. The rest can take their iphones and snap some pictures or post their own video. Careful, you risk catching them in the act of helping someone.

I haven't seen any evidence that they're even helping anyone in a flood even, regardless of shirt color. One poster here who observes them regularly wonders if they are only there for advertisng/showing their colors, as he's never seen the boats move. he didn't seem like he was trying to smear them and it sounded like he'd have loved to catch them in the act of helping someone. Just no luck so far.

Poor confused soul. I guess the flooding must be really getting to you. Have you forgotten that this whole debate about the boat stickers started with a picture of the boat, with victims in it?

Who knows, maybe that first photo with the victims in it was fake and photoshopped?

I think it has been clearly established and accepted by all (including red shirt supporters) that the stickers are genuine. It has also been universally condemned, and justifiably so, on this forum at least, that this was a very stupid and irresponsible action on the part of this "splinter" group of red shirts.

[TomnearCentral]

Thanks for clearly illustrating the point that I was trying to make in a sarcastic way.

Anyway, as I mentioned in my earlier post in which I wanted to check with Nick if he had a chance to check with them how much usage they currently make of the boats, I did not question that they were used in the past to help people.

Just over the last few days I never saw the boats not at the non-flooded intersection. Maybe they just waited for the water to come and it looks like the can finally use the boats now also in this area.

As I want to check the water level there anyway in about an hour or so I will see if I get a surprise...

[serenitynow]

I haven't seen any evidence that they're even helping anyone in a flood even, regardless of shirt color. One poster here who observes them regularly wonders if they are only there for advertisng/showing their colors, as he's never seen the boats move. he didn't seem like he was trying to smear them and it sounded like he'd have loved to catch them in the act of helping someone. Just no luck so far.

Poor confused soul. I guess the flooding must be really getting to you. Have you forgotten that this whole debate about the boat stickers started with a picture of the boat, with victims in it?

Who knows, maybe that first photo with the victims in it was fake and photoshopped?

I think it has been clearly established and accepted by all (including red shirt supporters) that the stickers are genuine. It has also been universally condemned, and justifiably so, on this forum at least, that this was a very stupid and irresponsible action on the part of this "splinter" group of red shirts.

If it's not too much trouble, could you list which Red Shirt groups represent genuine Red Shirts and which are the "splinter" groups that contain the fake Red Shirts. As you pointed out, I'm a "poor confused soul" and I'm not able to make that determination on my own. The nearest I've been able to come is that those Red Shirts that commit reprehensible and indefensible acts are the fake ones, right?

[Buchholz]

Now I'm convinced that Nick is biased. He is also not realistic in thinking that when he asks people a question that they will give him an honest answer. Red villages, cool stickers and people saying lets burn Bangkok. Just for fun, doesn't mean anything.

I gave you a brief summary of an interview.

I have posted what they said.

Lacking reports of them having refused to help non-Red Shirts, i will not speculate that they lied solely based on this sticker as this would not just be highly biased but also libelous.

And thank you, i have learned just a lesson here, digesting most of the comments i have to read here i understand now why rags such as The Sun are so successful: spew hatred, and people will love to read it, and the occasional libel conviction will not make a dent in your balance.

Very interesting.

I don't think you are a bad guy Nick and good that you show that there are many good red shirts but there are a few who spoil it and I would like you to be realist to see that. I would like to see some balance.

Maybe I am wrong but if I see pictures like this what I have been told to be guys (redshirts ?) who spray black the words MAXLINER and supposedly sprayed the new text "greeetings from Dubay, Thaksin loves you" on the donated goods.

Amazingly brazen action...

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Edited November 3, 2011 by Buchholz

[Buchholz]

The reason/excuse then supposedly given for said sticker (it looks cool) is then so weak one would have to be very gullible and/or biased to believe the excuse without further evidence.

Incredibly weak, and the fact that Nick simply accepted this reasoning - it looks cool - as being a plausible and reasonable explanation, and the fact that he didn't respond back with "come on guys, nobody is going to buy that crap - the sticker is highly offensive and completely undermines any good work you might be doing, and furthermore, you placed it on the boats not because it looks cool - stop insulting me with that BS - but because it reflects how strongly you feel about people who are not aligned with your political view - and whether or not you really would refuse to help someone who wasn't a red, it makes little difference when that is what you are so publicly advertising", speaks volumes about Nick's position, not that it wasn't already blatantly obvious of course.

As others have said though, i actually do respect the work Nick does and would be the first to acknowledge how well informed he is. I just wish he would be a little more candid about his agenda in all this - it is after all exposed in just about every thread in which he contributes.

Well said and agreed.

[tlansford]

They clearly displayed a sticker that displayed a clear message. It's up to them to provide evidence to the contrary, it is not up to anybody else to prove they aren't doing what their own sticker says they are doing.

Actually, it seems to me that it is only up to them to keep doing what they are doing - helping people in a flood. They certainly have no need to prove something to you, me or anyone else here.

Their location is not a secret, you guys who speak thai can go out there and talk with them. The rest can take their iphones and snap some pictures or post their own video. Careful, you risk catching them in the act of helping someone.

Yeah, they should continue to help people.

But I don't try to veer off track, my point was perfectly clear. The evidence clearly states they have a policy of helping only red shirts. We've been fed some weaktard excuse that most of us are not buying, so the evidence remains.

And go visit them when I have a job and family etc, real smart. And why anyway? Why go speak to a source that I cannot put my faith in? Why go speak to anybody that for all I know would feed me a pack of lies?

and to continue your escalating finale - why let facts get in the way of your reality?

"so the evidence remains", ... of what, that there is a sticker on the boat? OK. That they refuse to help people because the people are not red shirts? That evidence doesn't exist yet. Maybe they have refused to help non-red shirts, that would be a callous thing to do. So far, the only "evidence" you have says the opposite - that they help everyone.

politicize the flooding and the relief efforts if you will, ...

[Gweiloman]

Poor confused soul. I guess the flooding must be really getting to you. Have you forgotten that this whole debate about the boat stickers started with a picture of the boat, with victims in it?

Who knows, maybe that first photo with the victims in it was fake and photoshopped?

I think it has been clearly established and accepted by all (including red shirt supporters) that the stickers are genuine. It has also been universally condemned, and justifiably so, on this forum at least, that this was a very stupid and irresponsible action on the part of this "splinter" group of red shirts.

If it's not too much trouble, could you list which Red Shirt groups represent genuine Red Shirts and which are the "splinter" groups that contain the fake Red Shirts. As you pointed out, I'm a "poor confused soul" and I'm not able to make that determination on my own. The nearest I've been able to come is that those Red Shirts that commit reprehensible and indefensible acts are the fake ones, right?

I suggest you reread Nicknostitz's posts on how the red shirts are (loosely) organised.

I don't know which red shirts you are referring to the commit reprehensible and indefensible acts. But for sure, those that thought up this idea of having a relief boat for the use of red shirts only should be heavily condemned. And if they indeed disallowed any non-red shirts to get on the boat, this would surely be classified as a reprehensible and indefensible act, very much like what some others did a couple of years back by occupying the airport.

[Buchholz]

I haven't seen any evidence that they're even helping anyone in a flood even, regardless of shirt color. One poster here who observes them regularly wonders if they are only there for advertisng/showing their colors, as he's never seen the boats move. he didn't seem like he was trying to smear them and it sounded like he'd have loved to catch them in the act of helping someone. Just no luck so far.

Poor confused soul. I guess the flooding must be really getting to you. Have you forgotten that this whole debate about the boat stickers started with a picture of the boat, with victims in it?

Who knows, maybe that first photo with the victims in it was fake and photoshopped?

I think it has been clearly established and accepted by all (including red shirt supporters) that the stickers are genuine.

I don't believe it has been accepted by all, at least not until recantations are issued from quite adamant posters earlier that the stickers were faked.

I do, however, agree that there have been red shirt supporters on the thread, whether they acknowledge your assessment that they are or not.

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Edited November 3, 2011 by Buchholz