Cm Immigration Proof Of Income

[NancyL]

I can't imagine the US Government going through the time, trouble and expense to try someone for perjury over something so minor - and possibly losing and getting sued. They have much more important things to do such as busting someone for a joint or two.

Actually, I don't think the U.S. embassy/consulate is much interested in either subject.

Where Americans "get caught" is when they have an emergency hospitalization and plead poverty, saying they don't have any savings and their monthly income is substantially below what is needed to pay for insurance. Then, this raises the question of how it is they obtained their retirement extension if they don't meet the financial requirements. It's Thai immigration that's most interested in this. Remember, the hospital has to report your whereabouts to immigration, just as a hotel is suppose to when you check in. The hospital is going to bring your claim of poverty to the attention of immigration.

[Jingthing]

Wait a second there. The INCOME requirement for retirement extensions is ZERO baht. (If using the bank account method.)

[flying]

And a huge asteroid may hit the earth dooming us all.

Wonder which one has better odds

I live in the US & am no loner surprised at what lengths they are now going to

here to find revenue...

Does not matter to me though if a loophole that I do not use is closed

Edited November 23, 2011 by flying

[jaideeguy]

As I recall, the actual wording on the afidavit is that 'I have bla bla$$ as income from pension or other sources'......Altho I have a small Social Security check every month, I make up the difference from 'other income'......interest, dividends and lately dipping into principal, but my Thai and US banking statements will prove that I bring into 'The Kingdom' thb 100,000/mo on a slow month.

Still no response to my question about a statement from US social Security as being proof for a partial amount of income to bring down the thb800,000 requirement.

[sfokevin]

I did hear that Immigration was going to ask for additional proof of income from people that didn't look like they had the means to support themselves. It should only happen to a select few.

Mark Zuckerberg better not show up in his T shirt, jeans and sandals.

All this dressing up to the hilt for immigration is an urban myth.

As long as you're tidy and not smelly, they don't really care.

And I don't think a visa can be refused on the grounds of BO anyway.

I don't understand why some show up in long pants, tie and a shirt...

I would think that immigration might suspect they just came from work

Edited November 23, 2011 by sfokevin

[lannarebirth]

I can't imagine the US Government going through the time, trouble and expense to try someone for perjury over something so minor - and possibly losing and getting sued. They have much more important things to do such as busting someone for a joint or two.

I agree with your first point and as to your second, you cannot sue the US government.

[lannarebirth]

Does anyone know exactly what documentation is acceptable and what is not? I will be applying for my first extension based on retirement next year. I am planning on using the income method. I have more than enough income from my investments. If asked for additional documentation, I was planning on providing copies of my US bank statements which show sufficient income being deposited, and ATM withdrawals into Thailand. Will this suffice? Thank you.

That is what I have done in the past and have had all proper documentation, which has never been asked for. I don't think it absolutely meets the definition of a "pension", so this year I'll just be using a one year time deposit I already had. many people have self funded "pensions", but the whole thing seems too murky to me right now to want to become a test case.

[Tywais]

you cannot sue the US government.

Actually you can under certain circumstances. Federal Tort Claims Act

Under the FTCA, "[t]he United States [is] liable . . . in the same manner and to the same extent as a private individual under like circumstances, but [is not] liable for interest prior to judgment or for punitive damages

[lannarebirth]

you cannot sue the US government.

Actually you can under certain circumstances. Federal Tort Claims Act

Under the FTCA, "[t]he United States [is] liable . . . in the same manner and to the same extent as a private individual under like circumstances, but [is not] liable for interest prior to judgment or for punitive damages

I did not know that, thank you. I do note however:

The FTCA exempts, among other things, claims based upon the performance, or failure to perform a "discretionary function or duty."^[2] The FTCA also exempts a number of intentional torts. The Supreme Court of the United States has limited the use of the FTCA in cases involving the military in the Feres doctrine.^[3]

which I think effectively limits most litigation that could possibly arise.

[maesai]

That is what I have done in the past and have had all proper documentation, which has never been asked for. I don't think it absolutely meets the definition of a "pension", so this year I'll just be using a one year time deposit I already had. many people have self funded "pensions", but the whole thing seems too murky to me right now to want to become a test case.

Appreciate your feedback. I note that on the Ministry of Foreign Affairs website, they make no mention of a "pension".

>>- A copy of bank statement showing a deposit of the amount equal to and not less than 800,000 Baht or an income certificate (an original copy) with a monthly income of not less than 65,000 Baht, or a deposit account plus a monthly income totalling not less than 800,000 Baht.<<

So, just what qualifies as an "income certificate"?

[Dante99]

I don't think a visa can be refused on the grounds of BO anyway.

They can refuse a visa on any grounds they choose and they are not obligated to tell you the real reason. They can tell you one reason one day and another reason the next day and run you around until your visa expires and you have to leave or they deport you.

[NancyL]

Wait a second there. The INCOME requirement for retirement extensions is ZERO baht. (If using the bank account method.)

Yes, but if a hospitalized expat has 800,000 baht in the bank, then they can't plead poverty and inability to pay a hospital bill, can they?

Yes, I know that someone may not want to raid that 800,000 visa account for a medical emergency, but isn't that one reason why the Thai authorities want people on retirement extension to have that resource if their income isn't sufficient to meet the income requirements?

Edited November 23, 2011 by NancyL

[hellodolly]

That is what I have done in the past and have had all proper documentation, which has never been asked for. I don't think it absolutely meets the definition of a "pension", so this year I'll just be using a one year time deposit I already had. many people have self funded "pensions", but the whole thing seems too murky to me right now to want to become a test case.

Appreciate your feedback. I note that on the Ministry of Foreign Affairs website, they make no mention of a "pension".

>>- A copy of bank statement showing a deposit of the amount equal to and not less than 800,000 Baht or an income certificate (an original copy) with a monthly income of not less than 65,000 Baht, or a deposit account plus a monthly income totalling not less than 800,000 Baht.<<

So, just what qualifies as an "income certificate"?

Actually that is not all there is to it.

You can have 400,000 Baht and a income of 32,500 baht a month.

Or any thing that ads up percentage wise.

For instance if you had 90% of the 800,000 baht it would amount to 720,000 baht. You would then need a guaranteed income equal to 10% of your monthly income 6,250..

As long as the percentages add up to 100%. It is OK

Not sure if you need the consulates affidavit for the 800,000 baht deposit. Maybe the bank statement is enough. I don't know.I have heard that it has to be in the bank at least 60 days. Another rumor said 90 days.

But you do need the certificate for the guaranteed income.

Edited November 23, 2011 by hellodolly

[NancyL]

Hellodolly is right about the "combination" method being acceptable. You just need to show either an annual income of 800,000 baht or 800,000 baht in the bank, so a combination of annual income and savings that will total 800,000 baht is accepted.

The bank will provide a letter verifying the bank account and those letters are usually pretty cheap -- a couple hundred baht as I recall. Much cheaper than the $50 notary fee at the Am consulate and no need to make an appointment to get the letter.

The money must be "seasoned" in the Thai bank account 60 days for the first 12 month extension and 90 days for every extension after the first.

Edited November 23, 2011 by NancyL

[factseeker]

Hellodolly is right about the "combination" method being acceptable. You just need to show either an annual income of 800,000 baht or 800,000 baht in the bank, so a combination of annual income and savings that will total 800,000 baht is accepted.

The bank will provide a letter verifying the bank account and those letters are usually pretty cheap -- a couple hundred baht as I recall. Much cheaper than the $50 notary fee at the Am consulate and no need to make an appointment to get the letter.

The money must be "seasoned" in the Thai bank account 60 days for the first 12 month extension and 90 days for every extension after the first.

Hi Nancy/Jingthing,

Just a last bit of advice or opinion please - ref the 800k for Retirement.

Does that have to be in Baht? or can it be any currency?

If Baht - is it best to change at sending Bank or change on arrival at Thai Bank?

Ref new regs - see link. http://www.bangkokba...egulations.aspx

Will the 800k via TT transfer trigger this?

The table states a level at 700k but refers to an 'Electronic Account Deduction Transaction'.

Operative word being 'deduction' - so only for an Account Debit (out) not a Credit (in)??

Is this Reg a global thing or particular to Thailand?

Just as well to know and have the relevant bits of paper to hand.

Hope to hear.

Rgds FS.

Edited November 23, 2011 by factseeker

[sfokevin]

Curious - Would they accept previous years 1040 tax return that shows your Adjusted Gross Income as proof of income?

[lannarebirth]

Curious - Would they accept previous years 1040 tax return that shows your Adjusted Gross Income as proof of income?

No.

[Jingthing]

People wiring western money into Thailand generally send it in the source currency and they are (sometimes much) better off having the money converted into baht by the Thai bank. I can't speak to the non-baht bank account issue. If you don't get an answer, try the visa forum.

[jaideeguy]

And just to confirm another [anoying] requirement.....if you are using pension as income, the pension [social security] check has to be deposited directly into a Thai bank account?? Can't be deposited in a foreign account and transfered into my Thai bank account by myself, to my bank account in Thailand on a monthly basis...as I used to do??

[thaimiller]

Wonder if there would be any advantage to bringing along a lawyer to smooth the process? I have a good working relationship with a Thai lawyer that is well known and quite friendly with with the officers at CM immigration.

No donot waste your money, either you qualify and have the documentation or not. it really isn't that hard.

I use one for my marriage visa and its a lot easier, Im only in immigration for 5-15mins through out the entire visa process. Well worth the money if you can afford it.

[Jingthing]

And just to confirm another [anoying] requirement.....if you are using pension as income, the pension [social security] check has to be deposited directly into a Thai bank account?? Can't be deposited in a foreign account and transfered into my Thai bank account by myself, to my bank account in Thailand on a monthly basis...as I used to do??

No, there is no rule saying you need to transfer in even one baht.

However, earlier this year there were reports of a mini "crackdown" in Bangkok of immigration asking certain nationals using income letters to show three months of such deposits. Then such reports waned. But absolutely, this transfer requirement does not exist in any official written rule. That said, enforcement policies (different than actual rules) are a moving target to follow and vary between offices and can and do change fast sometimes. To clarify when this did happen to some people at Bangkok and possibly some other offices, it wasn't about enforcing any rule that the income in the income letter being required to be transferred into Thailand. Because it isn't. It was about a method to force certain people to "prove" the income in their income letters. As we haven't heard squawking about this happening anymore recently, I reckon this enforcement policy that seemed like enforcement of a rule that doesn't actually exist proved unwieldy. That doesn't mean this kind of issue won't pop up again later, because it probably will.

Edited November 23, 2011 by Jingthing

[moe666]

Hellodolly is right about the "combination" method being acceptable. You just need to show either an annual income of 800,000 baht or 800,000 baht in the bank, so a combination of annual income and savings that will total 800,000 baht is accepted.

The bank will provide a letter verifying the bank account and those letters are usually pretty cheap -- a couple hundred baht as I recall. Much cheaper than the $50 notary fee at the Am consulate and no need to make an appointment to get the letter.

The money must be "seasoned" in the Thai bank account 60 days for the first 12 month extension and 90 days for every extension after the first.

There is no bank seasoning for the combination method

[Jingthing]

Hellodolly is right about the "combination" method being acceptable. You just need to show either an annual income of 800,000 baht or 800,000 baht in the bank, so a combination of annual income and savings that will total 800,000 baht is accepted.

The bank will provide a letter verifying the bank account and those letters are usually pretty cheap -- a couple hundred baht as I recall. Much cheaper than the $50 notary fee at the Am consulate and no need to make an appointment to get the letter.

The money must be "seasoned" in the Thai bank account 60 days for the first 12 month extension and 90 days for every extension after the first.

There is no bank seasoning for the combination method

Correct.

[Mapguy]

This thread seems to have evolved into a lot of fuss and bother. Never mind whether or not suing the American government is possible!

The visa requirements are really quite simple and referred to ad nauseum elsewhere on ThaiVisa fora.

If it weren't commonly known that so many foreigners cheat when reporting income by affidavit or play games taking out short term loans (alternatively "swapping money" among accounts of friends), then there probably wouldn't be much concern now, would there?

Regarding the details of income sources and transfers of funds to Thailand, such is generally quite simple to show. For example, normally there is a letter received from grantors of pensions stating the amount of the pension. Otherwise, transfers of funds can be clearly demonstrated with bank statements and bank books. This is not to get into the slicing and dicing of pensions with ex-wives, et cetera.

One caution to those declaring general investment income, the type of investment might be of concern. For example, miscellaneous investments (as opposed to certificates of deposit with very regular transfers to Thailand) could well raise eyebrows. In Thailand, general investments beyond such as CDs, do not generally satisfy the requirements. An example would be investments in the Thai stock market.

One further note. It is commonsensical, as NancyL has pointed out, that some reserves on hand in Thailand certainly should be available for emergency use. The formulas provided to meet the minimum are really quite reasonable. The time restrictions (60 or 90 days, depending) for money to be in an account are more than reasonable, actually permissive ---permissive, unfortunately, of all the game playing that goes on. I would like to know of one specific case in which an individual, temporarily short of the minimum due to an emergency (e.g., medical costs) has lost a visa or been deported.

Oh yes, a short note about shorts! In Thailand, shorts for adult males are generally suitable only as casual wear, not really suitable for general business. The same can be said for generally dressing neatly. Well, of course, there are the young Thai bimbos who like to show their legs. Hoorah for them!

Edited November 23, 2011 by Mapguy

[NancyL]

Yup, Mapguy's right on this one. If you want to talk about how to "game" the Thai visa system then move over the the Visa forum. There you can learn how you can "share" that 800,000 baht with at least three other people, pay some agent to loan it to you, or visit an immigration office where they don't insist that you "age" funds if you're using the combination method. This is how these "lawyers" earn their high fees. Otherwise, everything else is just practical, common sense.

On the reverse side, there are people who endlessly obsess about "what will Immigration accept" in terms of documentation. Don't worry, just have some annual statements/tax returns/bank books/whatever to wave around and they're happy.

The primary purpose of the financial requirements of the 12 month visa extension system is to insure that you don't create a financial problem while you're here. The primary way that expats get into financial trouble is when they're hospitalized unexpectedly. Apparently some Europeans think that free health care is a god-given right. Nope! It isn't. You may think you're young, healthy and handsome (isn't that what the women say?), but in truth you're just one drunken motorcycle accident away from running up a 500,000 baht hospital bill.

Edited November 23, 2011 by NancyL

[Jingthing]

Correction to above. When using the combo method, no money seasoning needed. Period. No lawyer needed. It's the law.

Also the visa forum here is most definitely not the place to learn about corrupt visa shops. For that, try a bar.

Edited November 23, 2011 by Jingthing

[Mapguy]

My goodness! A compliment from NancyL. She and her "hubby have been a bit harsh on this thread, but I think they have it right. (No, we do not hold hands!)

If you come to Chiang Mai with your act together and you have done your research, you will do fine. You will not need the Expats Club or Chiang Mai Friends (which may come at a (finally) not so subtle price) to assist you through various "sponsors."

Otherwise, do not choose a solicitor for his facility with English! Not wise! Many feast on innocent foreigners.

The officials of this country are really quite accommodating and very polite (if very, very tired of tiresome foreigners). There are some local customs, none of which is terrible strange if your mother taught you anything at all about getting along in good company. Wearing shorts in all but casual situations is not appropriate. Being overly insistent or yelling is not appropriate. Demanding (or implying) "Why don't you know my language ??!!" is not at all appropriate. (Nor is BO, as considered earlier in this thread!)

If you are uncomfortable meeting those simple criteria to get along, you might try settling in Angeles City, The Philippines.

Consider why you are coming here. If you do come to Chiang Mai, I hope you respect where you are. When I consider the number of "hits" on threads of "questionable content," you'll find your momentary exhilaration more easily elsewhere. If you absolutely must come to Thailand, you can dose up on Viagra and splurge in Pattaya, Patpong, or in Nana (if they are now all above water!) The air fare is cheaper, and I have heard there are more choices!

Edited November 23, 2011 by Mapguy

[Dante99]

If you come to Chiang Mai with your act together and you have done your research, you will do fine.

And if not, just post your drivel on this forum and some kind hearted soul NancyL might to sort you out. Good luck on choosing her type from the others and good luck on her and the likes of her continuing their good will and patience.

[Sophon]

Actually that is not all there is to it.

You can have 400,000 Baht and a income of 32,500 baht a month.

Or any thing that ads up percentage wise.

For instance if you had 90% of the 800,000 baht it would amount to 720,000 baht. You would then need a guaranteed income equal to 10% of your monthly income 6,250..

As long as the percentages add up to 100%. It is OK

Not sure if you need the consulates affidavit for the 800,000 baht deposit. Maybe the bank statement is enough. I don't know.I have heard that it has to be in the bank at least 60 days. Another rumor said 90 days.

But you do need the certificate for the guaranteed income.

I'm afraid that the above is not correct. It's not the "percentages that have to add up", if using a combination of yearly income and bank deposit the target is 800,000 baht. The examples used by hellodolly would not qualify you for a retirement extension:

400,000 baht bank deposit plus 12 x 32,500 baht income = 790,000 baht

720,000 baht bank deposit plus 12 x 6,250 baht income = 795,000 baht

Neither meets the requirement which is 800,000 baht.

Sophon

[Jingthing]

Actually that is not all there is to it.

You can have 400,000 Baht and a income of 32,500 baht a month.

Or any thing that ads up percentage wise.

For instance if you had 90% of the 800,000 baht it would amount to 720,000 baht. You would then need a guaranteed income equal to 10% of your monthly income 6,250..

As long as the percentages add up to 100%. It is OK

Not sure if you need the consulates affidavit for the 800,000 baht deposit. Maybe the bank statement is enough. I don't know.I have heard that it has to be in the bank at least 60 days. Another rumor said 90 days.

But you do need the certificate for the guaranteed income.

I'm afraid that the above is not correct. It's not the "percentages that have to add up", if using a combination of yearly income and bank deposit the target is 800,000 baht. The examples used by hellodolly would not qualify you for a retirement extension:

400,000 baht bank deposit plus 12 x 32,500 baht income = 790,000 baht

720,000 baht bank deposit plus 12 x 6,250 baht income = 795,000 baht

Neither meets the requirement which is 800,000 baht.

Sophon

Sophon is correct. The info about percentages is totally wrong.

For the bank account or combo methods, a bank letter is needed, but a document from embassy/consulate not needed for the bank part.

For the combo method, no seasoning needed for the bank part.

For the 800K bank method, two months seasoning needed for the first extension, three for subsequent ones. No rumors please, facts are better.