Do The People In Charge Of Tourism..

[Gulliver_in_LOS]

Last time I was at CM zoo there only seemed to be one-price-for-all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is about the extra ticket you need to pay to view the pandas.

Below is an excerpt from the Thai airways magazine

--------------------------------------

Giant Panda Entrance Fee:

Foreigner : Adult 100 Baht, Child 50 Baht

Thai : Adult 50 Baht, Child 20 Baht

----------------------------------

In the English version of the official zoo's website only the designed price for foreigners is listed.

G

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Zoo belongs to the government, right? It's not a private enterprise....

I think the price difference is fair, if based on residency, rather than nationality. Cheaper for the local 'tax-payers'.

Foreign residents contribute their fair amount of taxes, too.

I don't feel the same way about private companies, like the Croccodile Farm, who have price differences based on Nationality.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dear Ajarn,

I respect your opinion. However if this is the reason behind it, why is the entrance ticket to the zoo the same for everybody? Furthermore if we extrapolate your argument to all goverment owned companies, shouldn't we have different prices for locals and tourists for public transport, such as buses, subway, trains, etc? Does it make sense? I understand that some sections of society, such as children, students, senior citizens, have the right for a discounted price for some activities, but the standard price is always the same for everyone.

JMHO.

G

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Where I come from, every government university has different pricing structures, based on residency. One price for in-State residents, one price for in-country residents, and one price (highest) for foreign students...

I agree with you that it should be one price for eveyone, but I still can't call the current system unfair. But it would be unfair if they discriminated on the basis on nationality.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am sorry to disagree with you again. The example you have mentioned about university fees is a totally different situation. International students are long term residents, therefore during the time of their studies are gaining significantly from infrastructures that took years (even centuries) to build + a degree at the end. This is obviously not the same as a tourist, who came all the way from his country and bringing in external money to watch a panda for 2 minutes!

I agree with you that it is unfair only in the case of somebody who staying illegally in a country and not paying taxes, and then gaining from local benefits, such as subsidized prices.

MHO.

G

Edited November 23, 2005 by Gulliver_in_LOS

[Gulliver_in_LOS]

I've noticed that farang escorted by bargirl/hilltribe/Burmese girlfriends often get treated disrepectfully by the officials.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What does an off duty bar girl look like, does she look any different to any other Thai girl?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I totally agree with sierra01. How do you know? I am waiting for your reply.

If ourselves are judging other people by just their appearances, how can we complain about the Thais (not all of course) looking down at us? Do you like to be seen as a stupid "walking ATM" just because you are a farang? Or do you like to be treated with dignity as a human being? The same applies for any of the people you have mentioned.

G

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know that so many farangs like to come here and believe that their new girlfriend looks like all the locals, but sorry, that's often not the case.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Still no answer to my original question:"what is the difference?"

Then another question, why are you saying sorry? Is it because you think that if somebody has a girlfriend who doesn't look like the locals is in a "sorry" situation? If this is the case, can you explain why?

Now I am not sure who should be sorry about the way he thinks himself.

G

[sierra01]

I've noticed that farang escorted by bargirl/hilltribe/Burmese girlfriends often get treated disrepectfully by the officials.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What does an off duty bar girl look like, does she look any different to any other Thai girl?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I totally agree with sierra01. How do you know? I am waiting for your reply.

If ourselves are judging other people by just their appearances, how can we complain about the Thais (not all of course) looking down at us? Do you like to be seen as a stupid "walking ATM" just because you are a farang? Or do you like to be treated with dignity as a human being? The same applies for any of the people you have mentioned.

G

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know that so many farangs like to come here and believe that their new girlfriend looks like all the locals, but sorry, that's often not the case.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Still no answer to my original question:"what is the difference?"

Then another question, why are you saying sorry? Is it because you think that if somebody has a girlfriend who doesn't look like the locals is in a "sorry" situation? If this is the case, can you explain why?

Now I am not sure who should be sorry about the way he thinks himself.

G

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It seems that 'Loaded' is doing a Toxin and not talking anymore, you were asked a straight forward question Loaded, are you going to answer? My non bar girl TG would like to know as well.

[Johpa]

That about sums it up. Well over half of tourist numbers to Thailand have always been Asian, who also tend to spend more while they're here than western visitors do.....

Then he pulled out a 2nd folder filled with plans and drawings for a linked series of marinas and megaresorts to line the coast all the way from Hua Hin to Chumphon. When he asked my opinion, I said that a lot of visitors come to Thailand to see beaches in a more natural state. He asked me who I was talking about, and I mentioned Europeans, Australians, Americans, etc. He interrupted and said that their most important markets in the present and future were Japan, Taiwan, Korea and China, so he didn't see the lack of natural coast as a problem.

The lower-ranking MOT staff, on the other hand, are younger Thais who have a lot of decent ideas but have no voice in policy, as their job is to serve their elders. There are also others consulting at the MOT, including some relatively enlightened Thais from the private sector. We haven't given up, and the minister at least listens to us as if he is considering our concerns.

Plenty of other people in Thailand and around the world are concerned about tourism trends and tourism policy in Thailand. Whether as NGOs or individuals, the best they can do is try to raise public awareness through protest, political canvassing, letter-writing, etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't know if regionals spend more than western visitors. Even the lower end backpackers spend quite a bit as they stay far longer periods of time. But the regionals are more controlled as they often tour in organized groups so little of their spending escapes those in power.

But yes, the East Asian concept of tourism and nature is vistiting a landscaped area and not wild forest. The former "nature" standard up in Chiang Mai was the old Erawan Resort, a favorite for regional tourists. The Safari park is perceived as a form of a nature reserve. Trekking into hilltribe villages is not perceived as something one does whilst on vacation.

I expect to see more pressure put on tourist activities that discourage the lower and middle class western tourists, especially the sex tourists who increase the prices for sexual services to the point they are unaffordable to regional tourists. Regional tourists will be happy to see wealthy westerners sitting next to them as they perceive all westerners as wealthy by default.

The focus on the regional tourist is not good news for the minorities nor the environment. But it is the trend.

[phuketsiam]

But the Japanese pay more for sex than the farangs, who was it who said rule of 4 for the nips,

of course not so many of them but they are RICH, as for the chinese over a billion, but 99% are dirt poor, thats why so many of them in Thailand and other country's, only way most of them can make a decent living is to leave.

It will change of course, but not overnight, and the chinese won't take long holidays and are so tight they won't spend much money at all, unless they want to eat a rhino horn to make their dicks harder that is

[johnnyk]

But the Japanese pay more for sex than the farangs, who was it who said rule of 4 for the nips,

of course not so many of them but they are RICH, as for the chinese over a billion, but 99% are dirt poor, thats why so many of them in Thailand and other country's, only way most of them can make a decent living is to leave.

It will change of course, but not overnight, and the chinese won't take long holidays and are so tight they won't spend much money at all, unless they want to eat a rhino horn to make their dicks harder that is

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Middle class Chinese who can now afford to travel is estimated at 250 million (somewhat more than 1%), plus samesame in India.

They will come by package tour and "nature parks" are part of that.

Falangs are not part of the big picture but pay the bills for now, IMO.

[cmsally]

Even with increasing numbers of Chinese, I can't see many escaping outside the "tour route" which takes in places which are contracted to the agents and give commissions etc etc. This includes everything such as restaurants; the whole works. Thus the E Asian markets spending is very very controlled.

But the regionals are more controlled as they often tour in organized groups so little of their spending escapes those in power.

Totally agree!

Those in power need to look at the future (if that's possible!). These emerging markets tend to demand different things as they become more educated and get more experience. You can turn the whole of Thailand into a ridiculous theme park, but I bet you within maybe 15-20 yrs they will be looking at things not dissimilar to your average western tourist - culture, nature,educational tours. You can already see this trend with the Japanese and Singaporean markets and the Thai market too.

China is already becoming an environmental disaster, that doesn't mean Thailand has to follow suit to attract a few Yen.

[Plus]

Eco-tourism, national parks etc. are for westeners, Chinese need some civilisation they don't have in China yet - theme parks, safaris, big resorts. People in charge of tourism are quite right to realise that.

In the future, though, it's a roadmap to disaster. I remember when Indians were discussing plans for rebuilding their Indian ocean islands after tsunami and someone suggested "Phuket model" Indians loudly protested - they want nothing of that "development" for their prisitne islands.

Whether Chinese market will mature to demand eco-tourism is a big if - there are too many of them and the gap is too big. It will be ages before most of them turn their noses away from big hotels and swimming pools. They will feed Thailand for many years to come.

[Ricardo]

Getting back to the OP, I wonder how we might help the TAT to gauge likely reaction from farang tourists to possible projects, for-example focus-groups etcetera ?

On a non-profit basis, natch

[sabaijai]

Getting back to the OP, I wonder how we might help the TAT to gauge likely reaction from farang tourists to possible projects, for-example focus-groups etcetera ?

On a non-profit basis, natch 

The TAT is now merely the marketing dept of the Ministry of Tourism, who suggest national tourism policy. As I mentioned in my earlier post, the MOT tell me they are more interested in further developing their majority market, East and SE Asia, than they are the western market.

They care what western observers and prospective visitors are thinking, though I don't think they plan any focus groups. So the only way they get the western perspective is from foreign language press, from the relative few western consultants they employ (some of whom are big guns in international tourism consulting), from people who write letters of complaint to the MOT and from NGOs concerned with environmental, social or cultural issues impacted by tourism.

If you want to participate, write the MOT's Office of Tourism Development directly at

ที่อยู่: สำนักงานพัฒนาการท่องเที่ยว (Office of Tourism Development) สนามกีฬาแห่งชาติ ถ.พระราม 1 แขวงวังใหม่ เขตปทุมวัน กรุงเทพฯ 10330

โทรศัพท์: 0-2219-4010-17

โทรสาร: 0-2216-6906

Office of Tourism Development

Ministry of Tourism & Sports

National Stadium

Rama I Rd

Wang Mai, Patumwan

Bangkok 10330

tel 0-2219-4010-17

fax 0-2216-6906

Johpa wrote:

I don't know if regionals spend more than western visitors.

According to statistics, they in fact do spend more per day, on average, than western visitors. Leading the way are those from Japan, Hong Kong and Taiwan.

Net revenue is another story. As every academic study ever undertaken on this topic as shown, the backpacker (or long-stay budget tourist) sector leaves behind the highest net revenue of any sector of the general tourism market. This is because even though gross per-day spending is lower, they tend to stay longer and tend to spend their money in places other than high-end accoms where there is a high 'leakage' factor (money going towards imported appliances and foods, imported management, etc).

The MOT is quite aware of these studies, but the mentality that the high-end Asian tourist is the 'best' tourist nonetheless prevails.

[Loaded]

I've noticed that farang escorted by bargirl/hilltribe/Burmese girlfriends often get treated disrepectfully by the officials.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What does an off duty bar girl look like, does she look any different to any other Thai girl?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I totally agree with sierra01. How do you know? I am waiting for your reply.

If ourselves are judging other people by just their appearances, how can we complain about the Thais (not all of course) looking down at us? Do you like to be seen as a stupid "walking ATM" just because you are a farang? Or do you like to be treated with dignity as a human being? The same applies for any of the people you have mentioned.

G

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know that so many farangs like to come here and believe that their new girlfriend looks like all the locals, but sorry, that's often not the case.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Still no answer to my original question:"what is the difference?"

Then another question, why are you saying sorry? Is it because you think that if somebody has a girlfriend who doesn't look like the locals is in a "sorry" situation? If this is the case, can you explain why?

Now I am not sure who should be sorry about the way he thinks himself.

G

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It seems that 'Loaded' is doing a Toxin and not talking anymore, you were asked a straight forward question Loaded, are you going to answer? My non bar girl TG would like to know as well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Chill pill gents

bargirls in CM who go with farang are very rarely Northern Thai girls. In the bars you find girls from Issan - they speak with a strong regional dialect and tend to be dark with strong cheekbones. Hill tribe and Burmese girls can look very similar but their accents, again, give them away. Also. the body language of a lady of the night is often a lot less reserved. It's as clear as day to me after 7 years here so i guess it would be even clearer to a Thai.

[sierra01]

My TG is originally from Korat, a full blown Issan girl, I doubt she's ever been in a bar, let alone worked in one. In nearly a year together no Thai has ever shown her obvious disrespect, apart from one hotel security guard in Hua Hin, and he came close to losing his teeth over it. Whatever problems I've had with officials, I've never felt it was because of my Issan/ bar girl type G/F, any lack of respect from them stemmed from whatever problem it was. You shouldn't stereotype people too much Loaded, maybe you don't mean to, but in this instance it's causing offense.

[Gulliver_in_LOS]

Chill pill gents

bargirls in CM who go with farang are very rarely Northern Thai girls. In the bars you find girls from Issan - they speak with a strong regional dialect and tend to be dark with strong cheekbones. Hill tribe and Burmese girls can look very similar but their accents, again, give them away. Also. the body language of a lady of the night is often a lot less reserved. It's as clear as day to me after 7 years here so i guess it would be even clearer to a Thai.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you have got balls to say this!

So dark skinned or hill tribe or Burmese girls deserve to be discriminated against? Do you support this? Why don't you say it clearly if you don't?

How can you ask me to chill? Is it like "Hey don't worry about it this just normal"?

Then you agree with this as well farang --> loaded (ironically your user name) --> stupid walking ATM -> let's rip him off?

G

[Gulliver_in_LOS]

I know that so many farangs like to come here and believe that their new girlfriend looks like all the locals, but sorry, that's often not the case.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ChiangMaiThai,

I still want to know why you think it's a "sorry" situation?

G

[sierra01]

Chill pill gents

bargirls in CM who go with farang are very rarely Northern Thai girls. In the bars you find girls from Issan - they speak with a strong regional dialect and tend to be dark with strong cheekbones. Hill tribe and Burmese girls can look very similar but their accents, again, give them away. Also. the body language of a lady of the night is often a lot less reserved. It's as clear as day to me after 7 years here so i guess it would be even clearer to a Thai.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you have got balls to say this!

So dark skinned or hill tribe or Burmese girls deserve to be discriminated against? Do you support this? Why don't you say it clearly if you don't?

How can you ask me to chill? Is it like "Hey don't worry about it this just normal"?

Then you agree with this as well farang --> loaded (ironically your user name) --> stupid walking ATM -> let's rip him off?

G

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was trying to put it a bit more politely!

[Gulliver_in_LOS]

I was trying to put it a bit more politely!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dear sierra01,

I am not here to argue for the sake of it. You can see that from my other posts. However, some people just make me angry (and deep down very sad) by making such comments. This is a public forum, with may be thousands of readers, I felt if we let these things go lightly, such as support of discrimination based on race, religion, nationality, etc, others might think that it's OK or this is just the norm here.

In this specific situation, the posters (Loaded and ChiangMaiThai) seem to support this behavior, and if not, didn't have even the courage or courtesy to state clearly their opposition to it.

I don't want even to go into the socio-economical conditions which led this section of society to go into the mentionned sad business. But I just want to invite the above posters or their likes to drive to the countryside or neighboring countries to see by their own eyes where these people came from. I am not in any way supporting their activity, but I just think that every human being deserve to be treated the same, regardless of origin, or even profession if he or she is unwillingly forced to do it for the above reasons. Actually most of them are kind hearted people, and doing it to support their families.

At the end, I think these people should be helped and saved from this conditions, instead of been discriminated against.

MHO.

G

[Johpa]

Chill pill gents

bargirls in CM who go with farang are very rarely Northern Thai girls. In the bars you find girls from Issan - they speak with a strong regional dialect and tend to be dark with strong cheekbones. Hill tribe and Burmese girls can look very similar but their accents, again, give them away. Also. the body language of a lady of the night is often a lot less reserved. It's as clear as day to me after 7 years here so i guess it would be even clearer to a Thai.

I have yet to meet a Thai in Chiang Mai who can detect that my wife's mother tongue is not Kham Muang, but then again she has never been inside a bar where perhaps there exists a level of lingustic clarity that does not exist elsewhere. I must confess that Central Thai speakers in Bangkok, even those who have never been in a bar, can detect a slight accent that notes she is not a native speaker of Central Thai.

But I am most impressed by the fact that after 7 years you have noted that bar girls display a different repetoire of body language than, say, women working in a bank. Most remarkable indeed!

[Plus]

I don't know about CM, but here in Bangkok, or Pattaya, girls working in farang oriented sex industry stand out almost immediately. Body language, accents, outfits, lack of "class" - all these come together.

What's wrong with it? Most people don't care, though they won't be welcome in some places.

What about Isan somtam vendors? You can easily spot one - the face, the cheekbones, the accent, and the wares she has around her. Is it a form of discrimination, too?

[Loaded]

Could someone quote the words where I've been derogatory to non-bar girl Issan women, or even bar girls?

The observation that many bar girls come from Issan does not equal women from Issan are bar girls. If you feel many bar girls aren't from Issan, I'm afraid you have a lot to learn.

Being sensitive to the fact that bar girls don't represent the general Thai female population is something you need to deal with if you stay in Thailand.

Nothing wrong with bar girls, or having one as a girlfriend, so please quote where I've criticised this type of relationship. Only made an observation.

And please, chill dude.

[Gulliver_in_LOS]

The observation that many bar girls come from Issan does not equal women from Issan are bar girls.

Nothing wrong with bar girls, or having one as a girlfriend...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's all what we needed to hear!

Have a good day

G

[Gulliver_in_LOS]

I know that so many farangs like to come here and believe that their new girlfriend looks like all the locals, but sorry, that's often not the case.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I still want to know why you think it's a "sorry" situation?

G

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ChiangMaiThai,

Why don't you do the decent thing like "Loaded", and set your position clear? Are you too ashamed to admit your real opinion?

G

[Patsycat]

Whats all this got to do with eating giraffe and paying 100bht to see a couple of pandas....

[chanchao]

Gulliver, let's not beat this dead horse all the way to Khorat and back. The discussion has been had a thousand times, Loaded stated his position very eloquently in post #49, and unless ChiangMaiThai objects and offers an alternative viewpoint, let's assume he agrees with that post. For sure there was nothing in his post to suggest that he doesn't.

I suggest you go read some of ChiangMaiThai's 900+ posts on this forum, then send him a private message if you like to debate it further.

Furthermore, the Thaivisa forum discourages talk on bars & bargirls because it ALWAYS ends in these kinds of debates. It's a very touchy subject, apparently.

Or open a separate topic in the general forum on "Perceived stereotypical physical features for particular classes or regions in Thai society" (Though chances are it'll blow up in flames and get closed on the first day.

Cheers,

Chanchao

[Gulliver_in_LOS]

Gulliver, let's not beat this dead horse all the way to Khorat and back.  The discussion has been had a thousand times, Loaded stated his position very eloquently in post #49, and unless ChiangMaiThai objects and offers an alternative viewpoint, let's assume he agrees with that post.  For sure there was nothing in his post to suggest that he doesn't.

I suggest you go read some of ChiangMaiThai's 900+ posts on this forum, then send him a private message if you like to debate it further.

Furthermore, the Thaivisa forum discourages talk on bars & bargirls because it ALWAYS ends in these kinds of debates.  It's a very touchy subject, apparently. 

Or open a separate topic in the general forum on "Perceived stereotypical physical features for particular classes or regions in Thai society" (Though chances are it'll blow up in flames and get closed on the first day.

Cheers,

Chanchao

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dear Chanchao,

I think my motivations were clearly stated in post 46, and agree with you that there is no more need to push it further. As for the suggested new discussion topic, it is an interesting idea. However, I think your suggested title (above in bold) has already (and cleverly!) got the message across.

Have a good one everyone.

G

[Gulliver_in_LOS]

Whats all this got to do with eating giraffe and paying 100bht to see a couple of pandas....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Plus]

Anyone knows how Chinese react to two-tier pricing? Do they care? Do they even notice? I read that many come on pre-paid tours where all entrance fees are already included.

Years ago two-tier pricing was clearly discriminating against farangs, and Chinese, Filipinos etc could sneak in at Thai price, but now, with Asian tourism growing, it's becoming more "fair".

I live twenty minutes from Safari World in Bangkok and I've never been there - for 400 baht I'm not that keen on watching giraffes. I doubt that visit to a zoo is very high on tourists' lists to see. No wonder that Safari World is bankrupt.

[sierra01]

I don't know about CM, but here in Bangkok, or Pattaya, girls working in farang oriented sex industry stand out almost immediately. Body language, accents, outfits, lack of "class" - all these come together.

What's wrong with it? Most people don't care, though they won't be welcome in some places.

What about Isan somtam vendors? You can easily spot one - the face, the cheekbones, the accent, and the wares she has around her. Is it a form of discrimination, too?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How do you define 'class'? As long as the girl isn't from Issan she has 'class' then?

The somtam vendors, is it only Issan people that sell it?

Just because someone is lower down the food chain than you isn't a reason to be disrespectful to them.

[Gulliver_in_LOS]

"If you judge people you have no time to love them."

Mother Tereza

[sabaijai]

Reminder: Please stay on topic ("Do the People in Charge of Tourism ..."?).

[hong]

Could someone quote the words where I've been derogatory to non-bar girl Issan women, or even bar girls?

The observation that many bar girls come from Issan does not equal women from Issan are bar girls. If you feel many bar girls aren't from Issan, I'm afraid you have a lot to learn.

Being sensitive to the fact that bar girls don't represent the general Thai female population is something you need to deal with if you stay in Thailand.

Nothing wrong with bar girls, or having one as a girlfriend, so please quote where I've criticised this type of relationship. Only made an observation.

And please, chill dude.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

cool, I support what you have say. people are just red eyes.

Edited November 27, 2005 by hong