What Is Not So Appealing About Thai Classical Music?

[Polsci]

I initially replied to a poster who requested Thai music. But the response is rather long. Thai script is included; hence, it's in the Thai language section. In the process of compiling the list, I noticed that non-Thais and younger Thais (in general) are unfamiliar with these songs. Being an old person, I'm fond of (Balinese and Javanese) gamelans, gongs, hand cymbals, oboes, flutes, zithers, etc.

My question to you readers is what is not appealing to you about the Thai classical music. You may have heard of the music at Thai boxing matches, (some) Thai spas, ceremonies at Thai temples, or even at your own Thai wedding.

Also, anyone who is knowledgable about each music piece and has additional information, your comment will be greatly appreciated.

I apologize in advance for the very long write-up. Unfortunately, YouTube links cannot all be posted.

--------------------

The following list is considered quintessential Thai classical music that, I dare say, all Thais recognize although they may not know the names of the songs. Let alone the background, given that they are an oral tradition of entertainment and performance. Written records were rather sketchy until the early 1900’s.

Contemporary composers have rearranged, reworked, covered, and (re) written lyrics to all of them that some of these pieces became mega hits in different genres, particularly Thai Pop. Thais are already familiar with these catchy tunes that it seems to work well for new Thai artists to gain fame and recognition and for recording companies to benefit commercially.

Thanks to the popularity of Thai television soap operas (Lakorn ละคร in Thai) among Thai females of all ages, the Thai classical music is still used as soundtrack especially the period genre. Despite being a dying art, this court ensemble still evokes national pride and patriotism.

The names like Khmer (Cambodian), Lao and Kag (Indians, Malays, or guests) are likely to reflect the original versions of these songs.

1) เขมรไทรโยค Ka-men-Sai-Yoke

Literally, Khmer Sai-Yoke

Figuratively, Visit to the Sai-Yoke Water Falls (in Kanchanaburi Province)

(Khmer)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSw73teW5D4&feature=related

(vocal)

(instrument)

2) เขมรไล่ควาย Ka-men-Lai-Kwuay

Literally, Khmers Chasing Water Buffaloes

3) ลาวเสี่ยงเทียน Lao-Siang-Tian

Literally, Candle Divination

Figuratively, Candle divinations are normally cast as love spells or to pick out a desired romantic partner.

(Lao)

4) ลาวกระทบไม้ Lao-Gra-Tob-Mai

Literally, Bamboo Dance

(Lao)

5) ค้างคาวกินกล้วย Kang-Kao-Gin-Guay

Literally, Bats Eating Bananas

(Origin unknown)

6) ลาวเจ้าสู Lao-Chao-Soo

Literally, Flirting Prince

(Lao)

7) ลาวดวงเดือน Lao-Doang-Deun

Literally, Female Named Doang-Deun

Figuratively, Female as beautiful as the Moon (my note: it’s common in many cultures to compare the female’s beauty to the Moon or Nature. Does this come across well in English or other cultures?)

(Lao)

8) ช้างประสานงา Chang-Pra-Saan-Nga

Literally, Battling Elephants

(Origin unknown)

9) สร้อยแสงแดง Sroi-Saeng-Daeng

(Origin unknown)

10) ลมพัดชายเขา Lom-Pad-Chai-Kao

Literally, Breezy Valley

(Origin unknown)

11) นกเขาขะแมร์ Noke-Kao-Ka-mear

Literally, Khmer Doves

(Khmer)

12) ทยอยญวน T’Yoi-Yuan

Literally, ?

(Vietnamese = Yuan)

13) แขกเชิญเจ้า Kag-Choen-Chao

Literally, Honoring the Guest

(Indian or Malay?)

14) เขมรปี่แก้ว Ka-Men-Pee-Kaew

Literally, Crystal Flute

(Khmer)

15)เขมรโอมตึก Ka-Men-Oom-Tuek

Literally, ?

(Khmer)

16) ธรณีกรรแสง Terra-Nee-Kan-Saeng

Literally, Crying Terra

More information can be found from the National Geographic’s website here:

http://worldmusic.na...cal_music/en_US

[weary]

Dissonance is not appealing to many, but it is a prominent feature in Indochinese music, to which tradition Thai classical music belongs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scale_%28music%29#Non-Western_scales

[Spider]

I have a few points of contention with the original post and first comment.

I disagree that "names like Khmer (Cambodian), Lao and Kag (Indians, Malays, or guests) are likely to reflect the original versions of these songs." What evidence do we have that shows this conclusively? Perhaps it is better to consider other possibilities. The melodies and their names could be products of exoticism -- painting a portrait based upon what the composer imagined a far off land to be. Or, they could be folk tunes that bounced around the regions, carried by theater troupes, the precursors to likay. We might also consider Siam's relationships with its neighbors, the overlapping political interests, "national pride and patriotism," and the cultural hegemony that existed when these songs were adopted into the classical court cannon, and how those aspects might have influenced the naming of particular tunes. Music and musical instruments are also part of a monarch's regalia, and have been bestowed upon vassal states to acknowledge power relations.

I don't see traditional court music as a "dying art." In fact, it is quite vibrant, taught in schools and community centers around the country, and performed regularly at festivals and cultural shows.

And just to quibble, why do you describe Thai boxing music as "classical"?

Also, if you are going to transliterate words such as "Daeng" and "Daeng," why is it "Kag" and not "Khaek"?

Weary's comment does not explain who the "many" are who don't like dissonance in music. It would be hard to imagine the past seven centuries of Western music without dissonance in some form or another. If dissonance is "a prominent feature in (...) Thai classical music," then it is probably a particular type of dissonance that **many** find displeasing. Is it the scale intervals? The musical textures (stratification)? The instrumental timbres?

[manarak]

I'll answer OP's question:

My question to you readers is what is not appealing to you about the Thai classical music.

I replace 'classical' by 'traditional', as I think this comes closer to OP's intent, although 'classical' is quite correct.

I listened to the youtube song posted above, and if I had to describe what I heard with adjectives, I would use the following:

- dissonant

- unmelodious

- unrythmic

- whining/wailing monotonous voice

- lacking a theme

Other Muay Thai music I heard was outright cacophonic and bore close resemblance to some Arabic/African music which was equally displeasant.

My belief is that these songs were invented to shoo ghosts and other evil spirits away, hoping they cannot stand the sound.

More seriously, I believe this music is just primitive - there are similarities with European music from the middle ages, with music from American Indians, etc. I think it is an early form of music, i.e. what people could do with self-crafted instruments and their voice.

In Europe, the Renaissance changed the musical arts completely, and this didn't happen in the rest of the world.

"traditional" music is really old, primitive stuff and musical quality is not good, and the songs were written (if written at all) for people who cannot sing (probably because the shaman or the village elder had the honor to sing them, not the 16 year old village beauty with her soft voice)

Sure, it has heritage value, but today there aren't many people in Europe listening to middle age jousting tournament music either.

I don't know if this song of Da Endorphine is based on a classical Thai song, but I like it. Has xylophones too, but not dissonant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCETUAYpkSw

Edited February 2, 2012 by manarak

[necronx99]

The music is not entirely unpleasant, however, a totally unacceptable number of cats were strangled to produce the vocals.

[Polsci]

Dissonance is not appealing to many, but it is a prominent feature in Indochinese music, to which tradition Thai classical music belongs.

http://en.wikipedia....-Western_scales

Thanks for the link. Learn something new everyday.

I have a few points of contention with the original post and first comment.

I disagree that "names like Khmer (Cambodian), Lao and Kag (Indians, Malays, or guests) are likely to reflect the original versions of these songs." What evidence do we have that shows this conclusively? Perhaps it is better to consider other possibilities. The melodies and their names could be products of exoticism -- painting a portrait based upon what the composer imagined a far off land to be. Or, they could be folk tunes that bounced around the regions, carried by theater troupes, the precursors to likay. We might also consider Siam's relationships with its neighbors, the overlapping political interests, "national pride and patriotism," and the cultural hegemony that existed when these songs were adopted into the classical court cannon, and how those aspects might have influenced the naming of particular tunes. Music and musical instruments are also part of a monarch's regalia, and have been bestowed upon vassal states to acknowledge power relations.

Your point about Siam's cultural "exchange" with other neighboring kingdoms and how other venues could potentially influence Thai traditional music is well taken. My conclusion of the names was based solely on some information in Thai off the internet. I'm not a scholar of comparative studies or music history. Sadly, no one source can authenticate the origins of these pieces. It's hard to establish a time line with oral traditions.

Although imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, past Siamese court composers loyally serving their then-rulers and, later, the current Thai music and entertainment industry driven by profit have long copied such creative works without giving due credit to original artists. While my argument deviates from my initial question and your responses, lack of officially written accounts to fully cite and acknowledge the source makes studies of archival materials of this subject incomplete. Infringement and piracy are a new legal and financial concept in this part of the world. Outright lifting someone else's artistic work and putting a new label is a norm.

I don't see traditional court music as a "dying art." In fact, it is quite vibrant, taught in schools and community centers around the country, and performed regularly at festivals and cultural shows.

You're quite right about the current state of the court music. Maybe it's the ministry of education that mandates that those lessons and performances be part of a school curriculum. I dunno. Religious and social ceremonies still call for such background music, either live performance or recorded. But very few younger Thais consider "Plaeng-Thai-Derm" เพลงไทยเดิม cool.

And just to quibble, why do you describe Thai boxing music as "classical"?

At the time of my writing I wanted to imply that the accompanying music during Muay-Thai matches is normally performed by performers with Thai musical instruments.

Also, if you are going to transliterate words such as "Daeng" and "Daeng," why is it "Kag" and not "Khaek"?

I'm simply sloppy.

Weary's comment does not explain who the "many" are who don't like dissonance in music. It would be hard to imagine the past seven centuries of Western music without dissonance in some form or another. If dissonance is "a prominent feature in (...) Thai classical music," then it is probably a particular type of dissonance that **many** find displeasing. Is it the scale intervals? The musical textures (stratification)? The instrumental timbres?

The music is not entirely unpleasant, however, a totally unacceptable number of cats were strangled to produce the vocals.

A fair assessment.

I don't know if this song of Da Endorphine is based on a classical Thai song, but I like it. Has xylophones too, but not dissonant.

From a Thai poem titled Sag-wa-pag-wan สักวาปากหวาน.

Thanks for everyone's input and comments! Music to my ears.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Polsci

[cooked]

Hi

I have to put in my sixpence worth here.

More seriously, I believe this music is just primitive - there are similarities with European music from the middle ages, with music from American Indians, etc. I think it is an early form of music, i.e. what people could do with self-crafted instruments and their voice.

Well I feel a bit puzzled here, i have been studying and performing medieval european music for many years (as well as setting dance to some of it) and come to the conclusion that anybody can play any music primitively, but if they went to the trouble of writing it down Not a common thing in those days), it wasn't intended for for an audience of washer women.

You might like to look up medieval music on Youtube, maybe Kalenda Maia...

early 13th century. There are many more. There is no evidence to show that even earlier medieval court music was 'primitive' as there were professional musicians even then. Of course if you went out into the countryside things would certainly have been different, as they are now.

On a personal note I loved the passionate and painstaking performance in the first video clip shown here, had to turn the second one off halfway through. Just clonking on a zylophone to give it a gimmicky sound and then drowning it with none- Thai instruments doesn't do it for me. Mind you, it was loud, That's a good point I suppose.

[manarak]

Hi

I have to put in my sixpence worth here.

More seriously, I believe this music is just primitive - there are similarities with European music from the middle ages, with music from American Indians, etc. I think it is an early form of music, i.e. what people could do with self-crafted instruments and their voice.

Well I feel a bit puzzled here, i have been studying and performing medieval european music for many years (as well as setting dance to some of it) and come to the conclusion that anybody can play any music primitively, but if they went to the trouble of writing it down Not a common thing in those days), it wasn't intended for for an audience of washer women.

You might like to look up medieval music on Youtube, maybe Kalenda Maia...

early 13th century. There are many more. There is no evidence to show that even earlier medieval court music was 'primitive' as there were professional musicians even then. Of course if you went out into the countryside things would certainly have been different, as they are now.

No, Kalenda Maia is mostly not music, it's chor chants.

I agree that there were very nice chants in the middle ages, for example gregorian.

This is more like classical (=traditional) european medieval music:

simply horrible.

On a personal note I loved the passionate and painstaking performance in the first video clip shown here, had to turn the second one off halfway through. Just clonking on a zylophone to give it a gimmicky sound and then drowning it with none- Thai instruments doesn't do it for me. Mind you, it was loud, That's a good point I suppose.

Well, tastes are different, I suppose.

[SimonN]

12) ทยอยญวน T’Yoi-Yuan

Literally, ?

(Vietnamese = Yuan)

"ทยอย" means "style/melody".

[cooked]

Mr Manarak,

I went through a stage where I thought this was good stuff too. It's quite Ok for some medieval festivals where people don't know any better.

Kalenda maia is music my friend. One of the instruments you can use is the human voice. You find arrangers trying to lift what was evidently a peasant dance up into the realms of baroque fantasy, and you find mediocre musicians 'attacking' vigorously, music that was intended for more sophisticated ears: There are plenty of good examples of courtly dance music as it should be. Try googling 'Hauvoy' for example

Any music (including song) that comes from the heart touches me and I don't think your xylophone clonking friends were playing with the aim of moving peoples' hearts as much as moving the contents of their wallets.

[manarak]

Mr Manarak,

I went through a stage where I thought this was good stuff too. It's quite Ok for some medieval festivals where people don't know any better.

Kalenda maia is music my friend. One of the instruments you can use is the human voice. You find arrangers trying to lift what was evidently a peasant dance up into the realms of baroque fantasy, and you find mediocre musicians 'attacking' vigorously, music that was intended for more sophisticated ears: There are plenty of good examples of courtly dance music as it should be. Try googling 'Hauvoy' for example

Any music (including song) that comes from the heart touches me and I don't think your xylophone clonking friends were playing with the aim of moving peoples' hearts as much as moving the contents of their wallets.

Different music for different people, no problem!

OP was asking what readers felt was not appealing in Thai classical music, I just gave information about how I felt about it.

The xylophone clonking happened at Chitlom Stadium in BKK and made many people very happy. I agree that it's not a masterpiece of music though, and of course it is commercial.

I didn't want to say that the clip I posted is an example of "good music". I don't even want to go into this debate, I'll just say that it is strange that a few people with supposedly a superior taste for music will disparage commercial works which are liked by the masses (which tend to like rythm, theme/melody, harmony).

If a debate was made on what is the "best" music, shouldn't the music that pleases the most people win the contest?

[cooked]

QED

[manarak]

I don't know if this qualifies under a purist's definition of "traditional Thai music", but it is quite pleasant to listen to:

Edited March 20, 2012 by manarak

[ollyKS]

Young people, on the whole do not like old stuff. Try mentioning a film made before 1950 to someone under 25, they will look at you like you are mad 90% of the time. It is not a Thai thing, it is a young person thing. Loads of people in Europe get into Classical music as they get older.

-OKS

[cooked]

I don't know if this qualifies under a purist's definition of "traditional Thai music", but it is quite pleasant to listen to:

Hi. I have seen this before and it is definitely on my hate list. You can hear stuff like this all over the place in Thailand, however the video is 100% playback, ok that happens, but the traditional instruments being displayed are hardly to be heard on the track. You have to have cloth ears to like this, but thanks for the link. (I had hoped that I could forget about it).

Instead of complaining I'll try and get some real 'Thai music' and send the link. There is some there, very very difficult to find, the Thais have sold out their heritage and are about to lose it completely.

[oed86]

I would presume it was simply elite and effeminate. That's how I felt anyway, growing up in Thailand. Unless you're a court eunuch or cultivated or gifted in some way you're not supposed to really 'appreciate' it. It was something highbrow and undemocratic, at least it was like that until the recent revivals came anyway. They tried to popularise it and they also contradicted their effort by retaining its status as high art. I find more fascination with some other traditional thai songs which tends to be more saucy or vulgar though. Of course the period of 'the impossibles' stretching to 'sao sao sao' was like the golden period of thai music IMO.

But of course, all this is just my opinion.

[cooked]

yes I agree completely. I am not talking strictly about courtly music. Sometimes, before a piece of music descends into the mess that is sometimes called Thai music, you will hear at the beginning a solo voice or solo instrument playing a folk song, FROM THE HEART. This is elitism if you like, but not derived from a desire to show myself better than everyone else. I wish I could just get people to sit down and listen to the music instead of just liking it because a: it is loud and b: it has a strong drum beat.

On my first visit to Thailand I asked where I could here Thai music and they dragged me to a Discotheque, I thought maybe they were having a special evening, but no. I enjoyed watching the dancing though, still Thai. To my surprise, the best singing I heard was in a Karaoke bar (where I was dragged also) and a village lady started to sing a very melancholy love song.

Sorry, what is impossibles ... Sao Sao please, will I like this?