International community to resume nuclear talks with Iran

[Ulysses G.]

Therefore the question is, where do the Grad rockets come from?

The answer is from Iran, but many of the rockets are home made.

They are either from Iran OR they are home made. Israel doesn't get one F16 from the USA and then make their own does it.

AND homemade. A rocket is a lot easier to make than an F16.

[Ulysses G.]

Therefore the question is, where do the Grad rockets come from?

The answer is from Iran, but many of the rockets are home made.

Exactly, and they are generally ineffective.

Rather defeats your argument does it not.

No it does not. Home made terrorist weapons have killed a lot of innocent people.

[Pakboong]

The point I am missing in this discussion is the role of the out-dated military equipment. Are you saying the armaments are not being supplied by Iran?

I am saying that if they are being supplied by Iran, why wouldn't Iran give Hamas something a bit more lethal. After all, they have an entire inventory of Chinese, Russian and their own versions, why does Hamas only have rockets that repeatedly fall harmlessly in the desert.

We have been talking about WMDs, air defense systems, etc.. and Iran cannot get a decent weapon to their main proxy.

Plausible deniability.

No need for Iran to concern themselves with plausible denial, they are already to blame for anything Hamas manages to fire. The simply question remains, why not send the something that could actually do some damage?

[Pakboong]

Therefore the question is, where do the Grad rockets come from?

The answer is from Iran, but many of the rockets are home made.

They are either from Iran OR they are home made. Israel doesn't get one F16 from the USA and then make their own does it. If I were the boss of Hamas I think I would be changing my supplier.

Steely's comment concerning plausible deniability has merit.

I think there is another angle you are not seeing.

Iran do not expect Hamas to destroy Israel, or even hurt it. The point of these attacks is simply to keep the Israeli reprisals coming. This keeps the region on a war footing, maintains the general hate in the region and prevents any sort of reasonable settlement with the Palestinians.

If Iran were to supply truly effective weapons that caused actual damage it would likely precipitate a war that Iran is not quite ready for. The first truly effective weapon they supply will be a suitcase nuke.

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Your claim, if I understand it correctly, is that the 627 rockets and mortars fired by Hamas at Israel last year, were only to keep the hate angle alive and not do real damage and actually start a war. So the fact that these 627 rockets and mortars only killed one Israeli and resulted in 115 Palestinians killed in reprisal, were a strategic move. Of course, Iran would be the axis of evil behind this strategy but they are biding their time while sacrificing a few Palestinians along the way. I would think Hamas would love this particular angle and jump for joy at the opportunity.

[Colin Yai]

Therefore the question is, where do the Grad rockets come from?

The answer is from Iran, but many of the rockets are home made.

They are either from Iran OR they are home made. Israel doesn't get one F16 from the USA and then make their own does it. If I were the boss of Hamas I think I would be changing my supplier.

Steely's comment concerning plausible deniability has merit.

I think there is another angle you are not seeing.

Iran do not expect Hamas to destroy Israel, or even hurt it. The point of these attacks is simply to keep the Israeli reprisals coming. This keeps the region on a war footing, maintains the general hate in the region and prevents any sort of reasonable settlement with the Palestinians.

If Iran were to supply truly effective weapons that caused actual damage it would likely precipitate a war that Iran is not quite ready for. The first truly effective weapon they supply will be a suitcase nuke.

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Yep you have just hit the nail on the Head UG which hither to know one seemed to understand or realize, if Iran supplied Hamas with some real ordinance that could maim and kill in any numbers of Israeli,s military or otherwise ,then the tanks and bulldozers would roll into Gaza exacting a terrible price off Hamas to stop them,this of course is the Israelis right ,and that is to defend their citizens ,just Imagine what would happen if large rockets or bombs hit Tel Aviv killing dozens of Civilians ,the Israelis are not known for inaction when faced with a crisis ,which I agree with 100% ,also the Iranians would be held accountable for their actions too . Edited March 10, 2012 by Colin Yai

[Ulysses G.]

The point I am missing in this discussion is the role of the out-dated military equipment. Are you saying the armaments are not being supplied by Iran?

I am saying that if they are being supplied by Iran, why wouldn't Iran give Hamas something a bit more lethal. After all, they have an entire inventory of Chinese, Russian and their own versions, why does Hamas only have rockets that repeatedly fall harmlessly in the desert.

We have been talking about WMDs, air defense systems, etc.. and Iran cannot get a decent weapon to their main proxy.

Plausible deniability.

No need for Iran to concern themselves with plausible denial, they are already to blame for anything Hamas manages to fire. The simply question remains, why not send the something that could actually do some damage?

Innocent civilians are dead and injured. Homes, businesses, schools, other public buildings and vehicles have been destroyed and people are afraid. The rockets have done plenty of damage.

According to a 2009 Amnesty International report:

"Scores [of rockets] have struck homes, businesses, schools, other public buildings and vehicles in and around towns and villages in southern Israel. It is purely by chance that in most cases such strikes have not caused death or injury, and the lethal potential of such projectiles should not be underestimated. Above all, the constant threat of impending rocket attacks has caused fear and disrupted the lives of the growing number of Israelis who live within range of such attacks, reaching up to a million".^{[4]http://en.wikipedia....tacks_on_Israel}

Edited March 9, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[nong38]

Therefore the question is, where do the Grad rockets come from?

The answer is from Iran, but many of the rockets are home made.

They are either from Iran OR they are home made. Israel doesn't get one F16 from the USA and then make their own does it. If I were the boss of Hamas I think I would be changing my supplier.

Steely's comment concerning plausible deniability has merit.

I think there is another angle you are not seeing.

Iran do not expect Hamas to destroy Israel, or even hurt it. The point of these attacks is simply to keep the Israeli reprisals coming. This keeps the region on a war footing, maintains the general hate in the region and prevents any sort of reasonable settlement with the Palestinians.

If Iran were to supply truly effective weapons that caused actual damage it would likely precipitate a war that Iran is not quite ready for. The first truly effective weapon they supply will be a suitcase nuke.

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That is the big worry isn't it and it might not be delivered to Israel it could easily be far over the Atlantic or Europe. A small dirty nuclear device which would make a terrible mess, the rockets are symbolic and thats all. Iran cannot win a war, but it can make sure its opponents dont either whilst making life a misrey for their people.

[Morch]

I expect that there is very little about Iran and its nuclear sites that the Israelis do not already know.

Judging from the conflicting decelerations regarding how close Iran is to be nuclear - I'd say that's a bit off-mark.

Also seem to recall posts saying there is no proof that Iran is trying to develop nuclear military capabiity. Somewhat at odds with claiming the Israelis (supposedly) know all the details.

[Morch]

I expect that only the Israelis are interested in the US fighting/starting another middle east war.

Oh, the Saudis wouldn't mind. Probably the Gulf states as well. Hmm...maybe Iraq isn't keen on having a nuclear neighbour. Turkey would probably perfer not having another regional power to deal with.

Just to name a few.

And hey...I doubt Russia and China REALLY want an nuclear Iran.

[Jingthing]

I expect that there is very little about Iran and its nuclear sites that the Israelis do not already know.

Judging from the conflicting decelerations regarding how close Iran is to be nuclear - I'd say that's a bit off-mark.

Also seem to recall posts saying there is no proof that Iran is trying to develop nuclear military capabiity. Somewhat at odds with claiming the Israelis (supposedly) know all the details.

Oh please. It is simply obvious Iran is moving forward with a nuclear capability program. Quack. Quack.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Jingthing

[Morch]

Show us a link demonstrating Israel has the technology to block all incoming nuclear weapons.

Although a little personal research would diminish your daily post count it would be really beneficial to you, it's easy, it just takes time.

Israel, amongst other things has

1. MIM-23 Hawk, a medium range radar guided surface-to-air missile and longest serving system, it is also the network's most victorious.

2. MIM-104 Patriot , a High to Medium Air Defense (HIMAD) medium tactical air defense platform capable of downing ballistic missiles

3. Arrow Missile system, an Israeli developed Theatre Missile Defence (TMD) system meant to stop ballistic missiles in the Stratosphere.

You can do your own research, but basically Patriot would stop anything. Patriot AND Arrow would not let anything through. Both missile systems are extensively deployed and manned 365/24/7

Hawk wasn't designed to intercept missiles.

Patriot didn't do that well vs, Scuds, actually. Newer versions "might" be somewhat bettter, but not dealing with Scuds now. Not really battle tested.

Arrow - No operational data. What you get on tests etc is very nice, but not the real deal. As for asserting that it is "extensively deployed" - well, no. Not supposed to be anyway. The whole concept is that a few units will suffice.

Israel's air defense is mostly good in theory. Haven't been seriously challenged for quite some time now. Probably pretty good as such things go though. Claiming it's "the best" or Gandalfian non-shall-pass is overdoing it a bit.

I don't recall anything said about Israel putting all its faith on air defense. The usual approach is to combine attack on source with that.

[Morch]

It's so easy to assert Israel doesn't have legitimate concerns and has adequate defenses from the comfort and safety of not living in TINY Israel.

Why doesn't TINY Israel offer a solution ??

We remove or disarm our nukes, you don't develop yours ???

TINY Israel actually does have an opportunity to defuse and make peace.

It would actually be a magnificent political statement.

We cancel our nuclear capability, you cancel yours.

Take away the heat...........

If they offered that, nobody could do anything but applaud.

Instead it's nukes for us but not for you........Can't blame the Iranians for feeling threatened.

It's ok that we can obliterate you, on our whim but you dare not threaten us, or defend yourself, even by implication.

Because it's the Middle East and not Neverland.

Because regime changes aren't a theoretical issue in the area. New regimes fulfilling previous agreements isn't guaranteed.

Because Iran does not even recognize Israel, so kinda hard striking a bargain, probably.

Because even if there's a deal, it will be with Iran only. No bargaining chip when the next one wants to go nuclear.

Because life isn't fair.

As for the last bit - Israel did not really threat Iran prior to the current crisis. Nor called for abolishing Iran as a state. Can't say the opposite is true.

[Morch]

There seems to be a large number of rockets getting in all the time. Maybe you don't understand it as well as you insist in order to to make a rather fallacious point..

Actually, less and less are getting through in protected areas. Those new "Iron Dome" intercept units seem to be quite effective. Of course, this applies to short range rockets and not longer range missiles.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4200794,00.html

[sbk]

One conspiracy theory with no basis whatsoever deleted and responses. lets keep this topic 1. in the realm of the real world and 2. on topic, remember, its about IRAN.

[Morch]

Pakistan has abomb for over 10 years now, a muslim bomb is not new.

Iran is most certainly provocative but Israel must show utmost restraint, this situation could easily get out of control.

Pakistan's nuclear military capability is aimed vs. India.

Not so much a Muslim bomb as such, and never (at least to the best of my knowledge) threated someone other than India,

Following both nation's nuclear tests there was a quite intense time.

Things are worrysome whenever they go at it again.

Iran got issues with other countries in the area, does not recognize Israel's legitimacy as a state and considers most of the Muslims around as heretics.

Not exacly the same situation.

[Morch]

Therefore the question is, where do the Grad rockets come from?

The answer is from Iran, but many of the rockets are home made.

They are either from Iran OR they are home made. Israel doesn't get one F16 from the USA and then make their own does it. If I were the boss of Hamas I think I would be changing my supplier.

Steely's comment concerning plausible deniability has merit.

Change their supplier to whom? It's not like there's a long queue of countries able and motivated to do this.

I'm pretty sure Israeli statements regarding the amount and quality of armments Iran supplies the Hamas are somewhat exaggerated. I'm also pretty sure Israel does it best to intercept such shipments, more so when when it comes to the "good stuff". Passing weapons to Hamas is trickier than passing it to the Hezbollah, which indeed gets better goodies.

[Steely Dan]

Change their supplier to whom? It's not like there's a long queue of countries able and motivated to do this.

I'm pretty sure Israeli statements regarding the amount and quality of armments Iran supplies the Hamas are somewhat exaggerated. I'm also pretty sure Israel does it best to intercept such shipments, more so when when it comes to the "good stuff". Passing weapons to Hamas is trickier than passing it to the Hezbollah, which indeed gets better goodies.

I know it's a little off topic, but Hamas have come out in opposition to Assad, which would put them off Iran's Christmas card list, if you pardon the expression. Still Hamas appear to have been given a refit thanks to the Arab spring with Grad multiple rocket launchers supplied by the Libyan rebels raining down on Israel as well as reports of SA-7 (Russian equivalent of Stinger) anti-aircraft missiles being used.

[Colin Yai]

Change their supplier to whom? It's not like there's a long queue of countries able and motivated to do this.

I'm pretty sure Israeli statements regarding the amount and quality of armments Iran supplies the Hamas are somewhat exaggerated. I'm also pretty sure Israel does it best to intercept such shipments, more so when when it comes to the "good stuff". Passing weapons to Hamas is trickier than passing it to the Hezbollah, which indeed gets better goodies.

I know it's a little off topic, but Hamas have come out in opposition to Assad, which would put them off Iran's Christmas card list, if you pardon the expression. Still Hamas appear to have been given a refit thanks to the Arab spring with Grad multiple rocket launchers supplied by the Libyan rebels raining down on Israel as well as reports of SA-7 (Russian equivalent of Stinger) anti-aircraft missiles being used.

Hamas has also said quite plain that if the between Iran and Israel that owing to Hamas's total inequality by way of ordinance, Iran should not expect military support from Hamas

[maiphedmaiaroi]

Lots of talk about Isreal attacking Iran but it seems to have slipped peoples minds there was a thread not so long ago about the US developing a bigger bomb to target Irans nuclear sites.

[Colin Yai]

Lots of talk about Isreal attacking Iran but it seems to have slipped peoples minds there was a thread not so long ago about the US developing a bigger bomb to target Irans nuclear sites.

So you have a link that specify,s that this new weapon is for the sole purpose of Bombing Iran's Nuclear Installations??

[Pakboong]

It is more about knowing exactly what the Iranians do not have.

[Pakboong]

Therefore the question is, where do the Grad rockets come from?

The answer is from Iran, but many of the rockets are home made.

They are either from Iran OR they are home made. Israel doesn't get one F16 from the USA and then make their own does it. If I were the boss of Hamas I think I would be changing my supplier.

Steely's comment concerning plausible deniability has merit.

Change their supplier to whom? It's not like there's a long queue of countries able and motivated to do this.

I'm pretty sure Israeli statements regarding the amount and quality of armments Iran supplies the Hamas are somewhat exaggerated. I'm also pretty sure Israel does it best to intercept such shipments, more so when when it comes to the "good stuff". Passing weapons to Hamas is trickier than passing it to the Hezbollah, which indeed gets better goodies.

So they only intercept the good stuff?

[Morch]

So they only intercept the good stuff?

Not at all. I guess Israel would be happy to cut off all military aid to the Hamas. It seems to invest more resources doing so when dealing with bigger shipments and/or higher quality weapons.

[chuckd]

So they only intercept the good stuff?

Not at all. I guess Israel would be happy to cut off all military aid to the Hamas. It seems to invest more resources doing so when dealing with bigger shipments and/or higher quality weapons.

Iran can supply Hezbollah through Lebanon. They must supply Hamas through Egypt, although it will likely become much easier with the Muslim Brotherhood in place now.

[Morch]

Change their supplier to whom? It's not like there's a long queue of countries able and motivated to do this.

I'm pretty sure Israeli statements regarding the amount and quality of armments Iran supplies the Hamas are somewhat exaggerated. I'm also pretty sure Israel does it best to intercept such shipments, more so when when it comes to the "good stuff". Passing weapons to Hamas is trickier than passing it to the Hezbollah, which indeed gets better goodies.

I know it's a little off topic, but Hamas have come out in opposition to Assad, which would put them off Iran's Christmas card list, if you pardon the expression. Still Hamas appear to have been given a refit thanks to the Arab spring with Grad multiple rocket launchers supplied by the Libyan rebels raining down on Israel as well as reports of SA-7 (Russian equivalent of Stinger) anti-aircraft missiles being used.

The backtracking already started:

Hamas did not change its position toward Syria and as always does not interfere in the internal affairs of any Arab country, Dr. Salah Al-Bardawil, a Hamas leader, said on Monday.

http://occupiedpalestine.wordpress.com/2012/02/28/bardawil-hamas-did-not-change-its-position-toward-syria/

Senior Hamas member Mahmoud al-Zahar said that his organization has not taken sides in the clashes in Syria, but proposed that the authorities "give more space to the Syrian people," adding that Hamas does not interfere in internal matters of Arab states.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4197823,00.html

[Morch]

Lots of talk about Isreal attacking Iran but it seems to have slipped peoples minds there was a thread not so long ago about the US developing a bigger bomb to target Irans nuclear sites.

So you have a link that specify,s that this new weapon is for the sole purpose of Bombing Iran's Nuclear Installations??

I believe it was in reference to:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/529399-wsj-us-military-seeks-more-powerful-bomb-against-iran/

[hellodolly]

People seem to be forgetting that there are European nations every bit as eager to stop Iran from getting nucluear bombs.

It might have been a different situation if Iran didn't have a lose canon running the show.

[Ulysses G.]

A NUMBER of loose canons.

[Colin Yai]

Lots of talk about Isreal attacking Iran but it seems to have slipped peoples minds there was a thread not so long ago about the US developing a bigger bomb to target Irans nuclear sites.

So you have a link that specify,s that this new weapon is for the sole purpose of Bombing Iran's Nuclear Installations??

I believe it was in reference to:

http://www.thaivisa....b-against-iran/

Thanks for the link Morch I stand corrected

[Jingthing]

It ain't rocket science:

Iran is coming back to the negotiating table — but not because it has suddenly decided to live up to its international obligations. These talks may provide a face-saving way to halt its nuclear program. The key to the Iranians accepting such a solution is to convince them that we have the capability and the will to end their program ourselves. The irony is that the more clearly we demonstrate that capability and will, the less likely we will need to use them.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/iran-held-me-hostage-30-years-ago-it-shouldnt-hold-america-hostage-today/2012/03/06/gIQAt6Re1R_story_2.html