BURNING ISSUE

April 10, 2010: All culprits must be made accountable

Pravit Rojanaphruk

BANGKOK: -- Two years on from the fateful events of April 10, 2010, Thais of various political persuasions still hold starkly different versions of history and no one has been held responsible for the deaths.

On that day, two dozen people from both sides were killed when Army troops were dispatched to disperse red-shirt protesters along Rajdamnoen Avenue and clashed with both red shirts and the so-called "mysterious-and-armed men in black".

To the red shirts, it was a day of infamy for the then-Abhisit Vejjajiva administration and the Army, as they resorted to the use of armed soldiers to disperse the crowd in a way that goes against the international norm of using riot police to achieve such an objective.

To the yellow shirts, as well as the anti-Thaksin Shinawatra multicolour shirts, the deployment of the Army was justified as they were eventually confronted with the men in black that killed some of the soldiers, including an Army colonel.

Having gauged sentiment on Twitter on April 10, I discover that hatred runs so deep on both sides that my Twitter account was flooded with hate messages.

While I personally think it's absolutely wrong and against the international norm for the Abhisit administration to have dispatched Army troops and war weapons to disperse largely unarmed protesters, red shirts will also have to answer about whom the men in black actually were and the use of M-79 explosives on that fateful night, and during the days and weeks that followed.

Nevertheless, I think the prime responsibility lies with Abhisit, as any democratic government should first resort to the use of riot police, tear gas, water cannon and batons until it's completely self-evident that police alone cannot handle the crowd. Soldiers and war weapons are definitely not for crowd control in a democratic society - period.

What's more, today, two years later, we don't even know who gave the order to have soldiers disastrously handle crowd control in such a deadly manner. Was it Abhisit or someone else? Who were the men in black, and why has not a single one of them been arrested over the past two years? And what about those who used M-79 explosives?

While having a complete version of history is fine and even healthy in any democratic society, the same cannot be said about the lack of accountability from both sides.

Besides, both sides seem unable to look beyond their self-righteous perspectives, and are unable or unwilling to forgive.

Perhaps it will take a whole new generation to replace us in order for the wounds to be healed and to embrace more democratic norms, such as armed soldiers not being used for a coup or crowd dispersal, or that 'peaceful' protesters are not supposed to use deadly weapons against security officers.

But is it really realistic merely to wait for our generation to die out in the hope that we are replaced by younger ones whose hearts are not filled with hatred, but with open-mindedness and compassion? I fear that if we don't try to push harder and learn the lessons from the recent past, future generations will grow up accepting the brutal past of our generation as something normal, if not acceptable.

We cannot, therefore, simply run away and abdicate our responsibility to set the record straight. Make the culprits on all sides accountable, for failing to do so would be tantamount to tacitly telling the next generations that it's okay to settle things violently without accountability and due regard to the rule of law.

Though our generation seems trapped in the cycle of mutual hatred, it would be most irresponsible for us to simply not try to sort things out and ensure some lessons are learnt, no matter how messy, complicated and ugly it all may be.

-- The Nation 2012-04-12

"Besides, both sides seem unable to look beyond their self-righteous perspectives, and are unable or unwilling to forgive"

The above is very true.

However, over 90 deaths on one side are not to be relegated to a statistic and is accordingly extremely self-righteous, comparatively speaking. There was no equality in both tragical consequences, nor political intention. Diminishment to equal status of the two sides is often attempted by coupist apologists, both by throwing up 'political smoke', or trying to move the focus, amplifying and embellishing the limited fightback the protesters were able to generate, regardless of the color of clothing used by those spearheading this fightback. The overwhelming trained and armed firepower the coupists brought to the political confrontation cannot be diminished or justified by demonizing the meager and paltry resistance. The context is also often obscured. It was anti-coup resistance to coupists, and not a State exercise of maintaining public order. It was a political thing and not a law enforcement issue, as the coupists self-righteously try to spin it. Last year's election clearly showed who was repudiated and who was validated.

Well Pravit Rojanaphruk, don't you thing that major media sources such as your newspaper should have been pounding the table, digging, and investigating? The newspaper should have been relentlessly asking these questions and getting to the bottom of it or compelling those in the doorway to step aside. Shame on you and your newspaper.

'Nevertheless, I think the prime responsibility lies with Abhisit, as any democratic government should first resort to the use of riot police, tear gas, water cannon and batons until it's completely self-evident that police alone cannot handle the crowd.'

I think it was self evident Mr Pravit Rojanaphruk that the police in the whole protest period were wholly ineffective, hence the need for the military to restore law and order. Had the police acted with professionalism from the outset rather than play there own political game, maybe this whole sorry tale would have ended a different way. I'm not banging the drum for any colour here.

April 10, 2010: All culprits must be made accountable.

The Red/Black shirt - YES.

The Yellow/Blue/Multi shirt - MAYBE.

The Army that shoot & kill many people, including the innocent girl in the safe haven temple - NO WAY.

(people that have the right to bear and use arms are treated like GOD in Thailand; don't forget to "wai" when you see one, else you may end up like the BTS Irish).

I do wonder why the Red Shirts are not demanding to know who the Black Shirts were. After all they were peaceful protesters, if an armed gang infiltrated their ranks and started firefights were Red Shirts were killed in the cross fire they surely would want to know who this trouble rousing individuals are.

Some even claim the Black Shirts were government or third party agent provocateurs, no doubt bona fide Red Shirts would move Heaven and Earth to identify those men who escalated violence to the point so many deaths were inevitable.

I suppose the UDD and Red Shirts have been campaigning and collaborating with authorities in finding out who were those armed men mingling among them.

Right?

*crickets*

What, none have come forward in helping identify this people, how quaint. I do wonder why?

I do wonder why the Red Shirts are not demanding to know who the Black Shirts were. After all they were peaceful protesters, if an armed gang infiltrated their ranks and started firefights were Red Shirts were killed in the cross fire they surely would want to know who this trouble rousing individuals are.

Some even claim the Black Shirts were government or third party agent provocateurs, no doubt bona fide Red Shirts would move Heaven and Earth to identify those men who escalated violence to the point so many deaths were inevitable.

I suppose the UDD and Red Shirts have been campaigning and collaborating with authorities in finding out who were those armed men mingling among them.

Right?

*crickets*

What, none have come forward in helping identify this people, how quaint. I do wonder why?

I was there that night, and I happens to wear black shirt that night.

But it was not me.

These are obviously in the know!

-mel.

I do wonder why the Red Shirts are not demanding to know who the Black Shirts were. After all they were peaceful protesters, if an armed gang infiltrated their ranks and started firefights were Red Shirts were killed in the cross fire they surely would want to know who this trouble rousing individuals are.

Some even claim the Black Shirts were government or third party agent provocateurs, no doubt bona fide Red Shirts would move Heaven and Earth to identify those men who escalated violence to the point so many deaths were inevitable.

I suppose the UDD and Red Shirts have been campaigning and collaborating with authorities in finding out who were those armed men mingling among them.

Right?

*crickets*

What, none have come forward in helping identify this people, how quaint. I do wonder why?

The red shirts/UDD know who the men in black were. It's been widely reported who they were, though not officially. I remember seeing a video done by a reporter inside the red camp talking with the men in black.

Hard not to put a lot of blame on the reds when their leaders were telling followers to bring bottles so they could fill them with gas and burn Bangkok to the ground. Seems like criminal intent to me?

Agree that the police were totally ineffective. But they are tomatoes, right? Even helped Arisman escape that police raid (they were tipped off for sure). So the government had to resort to using the army. Unfortunately. Plenty of blame to go around, and they should all be brought to justice. But we know that will never happen.

The army had an impossible job to do. Disperse heavily entrenched and armed reds without anybody being hurt. Casualties were on both sides, as well as civilians. Which the reds should be held accountable for also.

A horrible mess for sure. With Thaksin at the heart of it.

"Besides, both sides seem unable to look beyond their self-righteous perspectives, and are unable or unwilling to forgive"

The above is very true.

So you now acknowledge that the Red Shirts, Thaksin, and yourself have been "unable to look beyond their self-righteous perspectives, and are unable or unwilling to forgive".

However, over 90 deaths on one side

You allege that others are historical revisionists, yet you are one yourself.

the limited fightback the protesters were able to generate

the meager and paltry resistance.

There were military weapons used against the soldiers, so your use of the phrases "limited fightback", and "meager and paltry resistance" are inaccurate. Do you know anything about General Khattiya Sawasdipol and his relationship with the Red Shirts and Thaksin?

Last year's election clearly showed who was repudiated and who was validated.

Yet again you try to use election results to nullify all breaches of the law. Winning elections doesn't automatically make everyone on the winning side innocent of all charges and convictions.

These are obviously in the know!

-mel.

Caught on camera.

Masked man (or is is woman?) in black, carrying arms (or is it foot?)

There were military weapons used against the soldiers, so your use of the phrases "limited fightback", and "meager and paltry resistance" are inaccurate. Do you know anything about General Khattiya Sawasdipol and his relationship with the Red Shirts and Thaksin?

Rogue generals on Thaksin's payroll cry for final showdown

By Sopon Onkgara

The Nation

Published on December 29, 2009

A NEW battle line has been drawn, with the sound of war drums beating, and the red shirts dancing around the bonfire. Their spirits are high, hoping that the showdown this time will be final and victorious. It does not matter to them whether there will be bloodshed or if the nation faces ruin.

The red-shirt battle cry this time came from a rogue junior Army general, and a number of retired military officers on the payroll of fugitiveThaksin Shinawatra. They don't mind being branded traitors. The tidy sum from the man in exile is considered worthwhile.

The other day, the rogue soldier, commonly known as "Seh Daeng" warned that the battle this time will be open, with advance warning when shots will be fired upon the enemy, or whoever dares to move against the joint push for power at the command of Thaksin.

"Seh Daeng", Major General Khattiya Sawasdiphol, is a self-styled warrior, seeking the full blaze of publicity. He commands a group of militia being given political indoctrination as well as basic arms training.

He brands his warriors as "Ronin", the legendary leaderless samurai warriors of ancient times, and also soldiers of King Taksin the Great, who fought to free Thailand from Burmese occupation before the Chakri Dynasty. Some of the rogue general's fighters are mere thugs with no honour and or valour. It is sheer brute force inspired by cowardice.

The warning, of course, should cause considerable unease among those who know about Seh Daeng's notoriety. His claim to fame was an ability to predict when grenades would be launched at the rallies of the People's Alliance for Democracy. He denied with a deadpan face, of course, that he had any part in the action. There was no proof, due to lukewarm investigations by law enforcement officers.

When should the mayhem and bloodletting take place? There are variations in terms of timing for the strike. Seh Daeng said it should be sometime after Valentine's Day, as instructed by Thaksin. Another ageing general said April would be judgement day, and that would be the time for Thaksin's return to triumph.

Read more here: Rogue generals on Thaksin's payroll cry for final showdown

There were military weapons used against the soldiers . . . .

Shooting themselves on the foot?

As I recall, video showed RTA in crowd control mode wearing helmets with face-shields and most carrying plastic shields and batons. Pravit's biggest bitch is about the colour of their uniforms, the army doing what the BIB could or would not. What relevance it it as to which service is prepared to carry out the legitimate orders of the govt of the day?

'Nevertheless, I think the prime responsibility lies with Abhisit, as any democratic government should first resort to the use of riot police, tear gas, water cannon and batons until it's completely self-evident that police alone cannot handle the crowd.'

I think it was self evident Mr Pravit Rojanaphruk that the police in the whole protest period were wholly ineffective, hence the need for the military to restore law and order. Had the police acted with professionalism from the outset rather than play there own political game, maybe this whole sorry tale would have ended a different way. I'm not banging the drum for any colour here.

You are Dead right... I lived in Sathorn at that time and was witness to the whole affair, I walked through the Red Shirt Fort every day , sat and ate free meals almost every night and chatted and joked with many "Red Shirts" . Almost every Red Shirt I spoke with told me they were there for their 500 bahts per day... simple as that. But I did see and chat with Sa Daeng on many occasions and did see him one evening , right beside the area where they stored the fresh vegetables, holding court with eight "Black Shirts" On that occasion, I watched him showing some type of grenade launcher but did not stay and watch for too long. The police were completely ineffectual, seemed to be scared of the Red Shirts, I even on a few occasions saw Motor-bike police with Red Flags flying from their moter bikes. How could the Red Shirts have built those fortifications if the police had not turned the other way... Abhisit was extremely patient with those terrorists, and gave them every opportunity to clear out and go home... They decided to stay... Everyone in the world knew about the protest, their point had been made... Abhisit offered to give a date for an election, Why were those terrorists still there.. and Yes, who did pull the triggers... Probabaly we will never know.. politics is a hard game.. everything is not always as we see...

However, over 90 deaths on one side are not to be relegated to a statistic and is accordingly extremely self-righteous, comparatively speaking.

Please don't post false information - over 90 deaths was not had on one side.

the limited fightback the protesters were able to generate

the meager and paltry resistance.

There were military weapons used against the soldiers, so your use of the phrases "limited fightback", and "meager and paltry resistance" are inaccurate. Do you know anything about General Khattiya Sawasdipol and his relationship with the Red Shirts and Thaksin?

Last year's election clearly showed who was repudiated and who was validated.

Yet again you try to use election results to nullify all breaches of the law. Winning elections doesn't automatically make everyone on the winning side innocent of all charges and convictions.

However, over 90 deaths on one side are not to be relegated to a statistic and is accordingly extremely self-righteous, comparatively speaking.

Please don't post false information - over 90 deaths was not had on one side.

That is the commonly accepted figure, although the UDD/RS claim there were more. They have video and commentary discussing how Red Shirt bodies were furtively removed very quickly and not recorded as killed......... If not 90 in your opinion Tawp, feel free to correct the matter.............Perhaps a ratio of one side compared to the other, would more aptly demonstrate comparative armed capabilities.................. Bottom line, to have one killed was too many, considering the legitimate and electorally proven validity of the protesters. Beyond that, such a numbers game is absurd.

However, over 90 deaths on one side are not to be relegated to a statistic and is accordingly extremely self-righteous, comparatively speaking.

Please don't post false information - over 90 deaths was not had on one side.

That is the commonly accepted figure, although the UDD/RS claim there were more. They have video and commentary discussing how Red Shirt bodies were furtively removed very quickly and not recorded as killed. If not 80 Tawp, feel free to correct the matter.

Over 90 dead on one side is not the commonly accepted figure.

To other Red apologists: This is why we harp on unclear posts talking about 91 dead, as less knowledgeable posters will think it means 91 red shirts, and not red+soldiers+journalists+civilians etc.

It's becoming all the more clear that unless all the culprits face justice then there will never be any reconciliation.

Of course that will take out a lot of major players including Abhisit and Thaksin but in Thailand just now the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

However, over 90 deaths on one side are not to be relegated to a statistic and is accordingly extremely self-righteous, comparatively speaking.

Please don't post false information - over 90 deaths was not had on one side.

That is the commonly accepted figure, although the UDD/RS claim there were more. They have video and commentary discussing how Red Shirt bodies were furtively removed very quickly and not recorded as killed. If not 80 Tawp, feel free to correct the matter.

Over 90 dead on one side is not the commonly accepted figure.

To other Red apologists: This is why we harp on unclear posts talking about 91 dead, as less knowledgeable posters will think it means 91 red shirts, and not red+soldiers+journalists+civilians etc.

If not 90 in your opinion Tawp, feel free to correct the commonly accepted figure.............Perhaps a ratio of one side compared to the other, would more aptly demonstrate comparative armed capabilities.................. Bottom line, to have one killed was too many, considering the legitimate and electorally proven validity of the protesters. Beyond that, such a numbers game is absurd".

However, over 90 deaths on one side are not to be relegated to a statistic and is accordingly extremely self-righteous, comparatively speaking.

Please don't post false information - over 90 deaths was not had on one side.

That is the commonly accepted figure, although the UDD/RS claim there were more. They have video and commentary discussing how Red Shirt bodies were furtively removed very quickly and not recorded as killed. If not 80 Tawp, feel free to correct the matter.

I was banned from TV once for showing this pic.

Even if I copied it from TV. So Iam taking a risk

beeing banned again.

But iI think the photo is important for the debate.

This picture was shown on TV the first time during the Reds

occupation of Bangkok.

considering the legitimate and electorally proven validity of the protesters.

Elections do not automatically indicate the blanket innocence of everyone on the winning side. How many times do you have to be told? People vote for a political party for various reasons, such as attractive promises like an increase in the minimum wage.

And how about giving us your perspective of General Khattiya Sawasdipol? Is he also your hero like Arisman?

“All culprits must be made accountable”

…why only in this case? Does this only apply to some low-so drug mules and not in general, as for high-so cop killers, fraudsters, tax-invaders, officials as drug dealers, or even unusually wealthy people?

“Thais of various political persuasions still hold starkly different versions of history and no one has been held responsible for the deaths.”

Isn’t this the common practice in LOS since world war II? That’s what you get when you only provide schoolbooks with conveniently modified content. In a true democracy there is no creative accounting in history neither in religion or the definition of culture!

However, over 90 deaths on one side are not to be relegated to a statistic and is accordingly extremely self-righteous, comparatively speaking.

Please don't post false information - over 90 deaths was not had on one side.

That is the commonly accepted figure, although the UDD/RS claim there were more. They have video and commentary discussing how Red Shirt bodies were furtively removed very quickly and not recorded as killed......... If not 90 in your opinion Tawp, feel free to correct the matter.............Perhaps a ratio of one side compared to the other, would more aptly demonstrate comparative armed capabilities.................. Bottom line, to have one killed was too many, considering the legitimate and electorally proven validity of the protesters. Beyond that, such a numbers game is absurd.

Absolute <deleted>. As usual.

I remember all the videos posted on line of Red Shirts carrying military style weapons (AK-47 look alikes) and discharging them. How many times were the Red Shirts told to disperse before the Thai army got involved?

Too many coupist and pro-Abhisit folks for my tastes. Clearly the Abhisit regime was propped up and the people were justified in protesting by any means deemed necessary. The newly ELECTED government has proposed amnesty to put it all behind and move forward. Should they throw all of the yellow shirts in prison? Should they put Abhisit on trial for being in charge when innocent people were murdered by the army? Should they prosecute their own supporters? It is time to accept the will of the people, who time after time have voted for their choice. The elites have wrested power away from the people and resorted to lies and intimidation, but the people pressed on. The coupist minority must accept the will of the majority or face further resistence. The old order out; therefore, the coupist elitists need to get used to that fact.

Funny, how a new used barges in using a word that is not part of the English vocabulary, "coined" and abused by another poster.

Makes one wonder.

However, over 90 deaths on one side are not to be relegated to a statistic and is accordingly extremely self-righteous, comparatively speaking.

Please don't post false information - over 90 deaths was not had on one side.

That is the commonly accepted figure, although the UDD/RS claim there were more. They have video and commentary discussing how Red Shirt bodies were furtively removed very quickly and not recorded as killed......... If not 90 in your opinion Tawp, feel free to correct the matter.............Perhaps a ratio of one side compared to the other, would more aptly demonstrate comparative armed capabilities.................. Bottom line, to have one killed was too many, considering the legitimate and electorally proven validity of the protesters. Beyond that, such a numbers game is absurd.

Absurdly enough, it is you who uses the "numbers game".