Bangkok: Huge Turnout Expected At Red-Shirt Rally Today

[rixalex]

Got anything constructive to add or are you just baiting ?

The fact that you find this photo not constructive is absurd! The red shirt movement had an armed element that instigated the violence we saw in 2010. Photos, interviews and film material support this argument. How can evidence not be constructive? Next you're gonna tell me these photos are fake!

The point is that he (skywalker) was just baiting.

The deaths of soldiers are equally depressing as the deaths of the journalists or protesters.

But the post was still just a trolling attempt.

His post was in response to this:

90+ civilians were killed during the turmoil...if they were not killed by the army ( opposite side ) then who killed them...

the Reds did...or better still committed suicides themselves....

The suggestion was obviously that all 90+ people were reds and were killed by the army. The post mocks people who might dispute these two lies by asking whether they committed suicide.

Your trollometer is on the blink.

[Skywalker69]

Thanks rixalex, you beat me to it.

Your right, I was responding to

chuang #272.

If its "trolling" in the TV Red Shirt supporters/admirers/lovers eyes, that´s OK with me.

Edited May 20, 2012 by Skywalker69

[Buchholz]

I would have thought it shifting away with the more frequent and more vocal displeasure, including Thida's veiled threat to the PTP, from their crucial Red Shirts. Add in the dozen Red Shirt Leaders who are Pheu Thai MP's and are being pressured to pull from the main PTP platform of amnesty for all and no change in Art. 112 and populist promises failure, etc. coupled with three successive losses in recent by-elections.

There's no shortage of PTP disunity and the "tides of power" is going out, not coming in.

The Red Shirts and rights groups have called on the new government, led by Thaksin's sister Yingluck, to prosecute soldiers and officials responsible for causing the deaths and injuries, many to unarmed demonstrators.

"We have to seek justice otherwise the use of force to crackdown on protesters may happen again," Red Shirt leader Thida Thavorseth said Friday.

One would think Thida was not particularly enamored nor receptive to fugitive ex-PM Thaksin's video-link reply to "her" Red masses "seeking justice":

"Let's put unity before justice"

sort of sets the stage for the necessity to have to use force to crackdown on protesters.... again.

Impatient Thai red shirts want justice from PM Yingluck

Thailand's "red shirts" took to the street this weekend to mark the anniversary of the army's bloody repression of their mass rally in Bangkok in 2010 amid growing signs of a rift with the government they helped elect last July. Many red shirts are angry at the failure of Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra to bring to account those responsible for the 91 deaths during the 2010 events.

Some are threatening action that could destabilise her government and start another period of political upheaval, after months of relative calm. At least 20,000 people attended the rally, which ended peacefully in the early hours of Sunday. They blocked a major crossroads where a huge shopping mall was set on fire during the dispersal of the 2010 rally.

"My son has been in prison for two years and hasn't been allowed bail. I haven't received any help from this government to get him out," said Bantao Muangkot, whose son was arrested for allegedly setting fire to a town hall in the northeast. Families of those killed fear a political amnesty bill proposed by the Yingluck government could see charges dropped against those guilty of crimes related to Thailand's six-year political crisis, including members of the military, former ministers now in opposition and ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra.

Continues:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-thailand-redshirtsbre84j028-20120519,0,2498396.story

Chicago Tribune (Reuters) - May 19, 2012

[473geo]

The law states certain people in authority cannot face charges... an election result was pre-empted by manipulating events.......a government installed......the door was thrown open for rebellion and dissent...

"rebellion and dissent" was manufactured by Thaksin and his PR machine, which consists of propaganda channels like radio stations, Satelite television stations ("Asia Update"), magazines ("Voice of Taksin", "Red Power"), and international lobbyists:

<some refs removed re quote count see above>

Also see The USA for Innovation story to read more about the extents to which Thaksin goes to in his PR / propaganda efforts.

Of course he can manipulate with the best.......but how does a country arrive at a situation whereby such antics are successful?.....that was my point......poor management perhaps?..ill thought out political strategy? lack of vision? lack of desire to improve the lives of the electorate? apathy? arrogance? conceit? consistent authoritarian approach?......all creating opportunity for a call for change

Edited May 20, 2012 by 473geo

[Skywalker69]

Good for them

Get them off their farms and out of their red villages.

Also, the 500 - 1000 baht they are surely being paid

to attend will help them put food on the table tomorrow.

Not sure how the will pay to feed themselves the day

after though.

Memorial is good, just too bad they still do not realize

their leaders led them in a slaughter, IMO

[media=]

[/media]

Rallying from the heart are they? No proof of anyone being paid you say? HAH! Put that in your pipe and smoke it Geriatrick and PhiPhiDon. Your response of denial I expect should be forthcoming, please...

What exactly are they being paid for here? Paid for delivering supplies, setting up the stage, rent of speakers,...etc. This proves nothing. The reds openly advertised the payment of travel expenses to travel to the demonstrations. 500 baht per traveller & 3,000 per vehicle owner. During the protests millions of baht were donated every day by individuals, families, companies, organisations. After almost each speaker/performer they read out the pledges and they were substantial. Pledges of hundreds of thousands of baht were common. There was plenty of money to provide food and pay expenses for those people attending who were obviously sacrificing their regular income.

But I have to read the constant frothing about how it was all funded by the evil fugitive, ruthlessly using the ignorant farmers as cannon fodder to satisfy his megalomania.

Are the Red Shirts being payed to demonstrate or not?

[Skywalker69]

I would have thought it shifting away with the more frequent and more vocal displeasure, including Thida's veiled threat to the PTP, from their crucial Red Shirts. Add in the dozen Red Shirt Leaders who are Pheu Thai MP's and are being pressured to pull from the main PTP platform of amnesty for all and no change in Art. 112 and populist promises failure, etc. coupled with three successive losses in recent by-elections.

There's no shortage of PTP disunity and the "tides of power" is going out, not coming in.

The Red Shirts and rights groups have called on the new government, led by Thaksin's sister Yingluck, to prosecute soldiers and officials responsible for causing the deaths and injuries, many to unarmed demonstrators.

"We have to seek justice otherwise the use of force to crackdown on protesters may happen again," Red Shirt leader Thida Thavorseth said Friday.

One would think Thida was not particularly enamored nor receptive to fugitive ex-PM Thaksin's video-link reply to "her" Red masses "seeking justice":

"Let's put unity before justice"

sort of sets the stage for the necessity to have to use force to crackdown on protesters.... again.

Impatient Thai red shirts want justice from PM Yingluck

Thailand's "red shirts" took to the street this weekend to mark the anniversary of the army's bloody repression of their mass rally in Bangkok in 2010 amid growing signs of a rift with the government they helped elect last July. Many red shirts are angry at the failure of Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra to bring to account those responsible for the 91 deaths during the 2010 events.

Some are threatening action that could destabilise her government and start another period of political upheaval, after months of relative calm. At least 20,000 people attended the rally, which ended peacefully in the early hours of Sunday. They blocked a major crossroads where a huge shopping mall was set on fire during the dispersal of the 2010 rally.

"My son has been in prison for two years and hasn't been allowed bail. I haven't received any help from this government to get him out," said Bantao Muangkot, whose son was arrested for allegedly setting fire to a town hall in the northeast. Families of those killed fear a political amnesty bill proposed by the Yingluck government could see charges dropped against those guilty of crimes related to Thailand's six-year political crisis, including members of the military, former ministers now in opposition and ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra.

Continues:

http://www.chicagotr...0,2498396.story

Chicago Tribune (Reuters) - May 19, 2012

Are we one step closer to a civil war? My God I hope not.

[lovetotravel]

You are very much mistaken. They negotiated a surrender over the phone while they were surrounded on their stage and then the police came through the crowds to the stage and arrested them. It was all live on television. As they were arrested they said to the crowds who were crying in disbelief some BS like "we are doing this for you because we do not want any redshirts to be hurt", despite the fact they had orchestrated the deaths of dozens of them during the preceding weeks.

Not all surrendered:

The Nation reported that Arisman Pongruengrong, a " red-shirts" core leader, was caught Wednesday afternoon, hours after he fled the rally site Ratchaprasong in Bangkok.

Arisman changed his clothes before he managed to sneak his way out from Ratchaprasong at about 10:20 a.m., as the troops were pushing forward to disperse the protesters there.

[KunMatt]

You are very much mistaken. They negotiated a surrender over the phone while they were surrounded on their stage and then the police came through the crowds to the stage and arrested them. It was all live on television. As they were arrested they said to the crowds who were crying in disbelief some BS like "we are doing this for you because we do not want any redshirts to be hurt", despite the fact they had orchestrated the deaths of dozens of them during the preceding weeks.

Not all surrendered:

The Nation reported that Arisman Pongruengrong, a " red-shirts" core leader, was caught Wednesday afternoon, hours after he fled the rally site Ratchaprasong in Bangkok.

Arisman changed his clothes before he managed to sneak his way out from Ratchaprasong at about 10:20 a.m., as the troops were pushing forward to disperse the protesters there.

Yes, you're right, not all, the ones that didnt run immediately surrendered from their stage, but not one of them fought to the death, not one of them fought at all

Edited May 20, 2012 by KunMatt

[473geo]

Are we one step closer to a civil war? My God I hope not.

Simply can't happen.......you see it is a well known opinion among some of the would be experts on Thaivisa, that every thought, every action of the red shirts is funded and sanctioned by Thaksin. Thus if he removes the stimulus and financial support the group would cease to exist.........

or have these experts been rather blinkered in their approach?

Edited May 20, 2012 by 473geo

[craigt3365]

I would have thought it shifting away with the more frequent and more vocal displeasure, including Thida's veiled threat to the PTP, from their crucial Red Shirts. Add in the dozen Red Shirt Leaders who are Pheu Thai MP's and are being pressured to pull from the main PTP platform of amnesty for all and no change in Art. 112 and populist promises failure, etc. coupled with three successive losses in recent by-elections.

There's no shortage of PTP disunity and the "tides of power" is going out, not coming in.

The Red Shirts and rights groups have called on the new government, led by Thaksin's sister Yingluck, to prosecute soldiers and officials responsible for causing the deaths and injuries, many to unarmed demonstrators.

"We have to seek justice otherwise the use of force to crackdown on protesters may happen again," Red Shirt leader Thida Thavorseth said Friday.

One would think Thida was not particularly enamored nor receptive to fugitive ex-PM Thaksin's video-link reply to "her" Red masses "seeking justice":

"Let's put unity before justice"

sort of sets the stage for the necessity to have to use force to crackdown on protesters.... again.

Impatient Thai red shirts want justice from PM Yingluck

Thailand's "red shirts" took to the street this weekend to mark the anniversary of the army's bloody repression of their mass rally in Bangkok in 2010 amid growing signs of a rift with the government they helped elect last July. Many red shirts are angry at the failure of Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra to bring to account those responsible for the 91 deaths during the 2010 events.

Some are threatening action that could destabilise her government and start another period of political upheaval, after months of relative calm. At least 20,000 people attended the rally, which ended peacefully in the early hours of Sunday. They blocked a major crossroads where a huge shopping mall was set on fire during the dispersal of the 2010 rally.

"My son has been in prison for two years and hasn't been allowed bail. I haven't received any help from this government to get him out," said Bantao Muangkot, whose son was arrested for allegedly setting fire to a town hall in the northeast. Families of those killed fear a political amnesty bill proposed by the Yingluck government could see charges dropped against those guilty of crimes related to Thailand's six-year political crisis, including members of the military, former ministers now in opposition and ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra.

Continues:

http://www.chicagotr...0,2498396.story

Chicago Tribune (Reuters) - May 19, 2012

20,000????? Wow, big difference from the numbers I've been reading.

[Skywalker69]

Are we one step closer to a civil war? My God I hope not.

Simply can't happen.......you see it is a well known opinion among some of the would be experts on Thaivisa, that every thought, every action of the red shirts is funded and sanctioned by Thaksin. Thus if he removes the stimulus and financial support the group would cease to exist.........

or have these experts been rather blinkered in their approach?

The situation in Thailand has all the ingredients for a civil war.

[473geo]

Are we one step closer to a civil war? My God I hope not.

Simply can't happen.......you see it is a well known opinion among some of the would be experts on Thaivisa, that every thought, every action of the red shirts is funded and sanctioned by Thaksin. Thus if he removes the stimulus and financial support the group would cease to exist.........

or have these experts been rather blinkered in their approach?

The situation in Thailand has all the ingredients for a civil war.

Excepting one thing.......

At this moment in time there is no benefit to any of the major players by allowing civil war........the shifting sands of Thai politics...

[OzMick]

The red/black shirts committed the first and many subsequent acts of violence before the overly patient gov't sent the army in and even then they waited even longer before finally dealing with these criminals.

As far as I know, that is incorrect. If we are talking about April 10 2010, and I think we are, then the first victim was a protester shot by a sniper. The violence by the MIB did not come first.

But that does not excuse the violence by either side, does it?

Would that be "unidentified sniper"? And exactly what purpose would the random killing of a protester serve the RTA who are just about to start a crowd dispersal operation with troops equipped with shields and batons? BTW a non-lethal strategy

How do you totally discount that that killing was carried out by the MIB? Who benefits?

Do you think it is normal for an RTA sniper team of 2 to collude to a senseless thrill murder?

[Moruya]

From the same Chicago Times article quoted above:

"Most red shirts I spoke to said that if they were forced to choose, they would rather see those responsible for the violence go to jail than bring Thaksin home to Thailand," Thida Thawornseth, leader of the red shirts' United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship, told Reuters.

Flapping of chicken wings noises

[OzMick]

From the same Chicago Times article quoted above:

"Most red shirts I spoke to said that if they were forced to choose, they would rather see those responsible for the violence go to jail than bring Thaksin home to Thailand," Thida Thawornseth, leader of the red shirts' United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship, told Reuters.

Flapping of chicken wings noises

That statement reveals one basic truth - they still don't realise that they were doing anything wrong. How many have to join k.Bandit on his 38 year incarceration before the ugly truth dawns on them?

[Mosha]

I saw the 2 red shirt supporters leaving from Surat railway station yesterday. There must have been 100 people cheering and waving them goodbye, strangely none of them were wearing red shirts.

Ahh, so basically you are saying that the support for redshirts is a lot greater than the numbers that show up at any given rally.

Or they were shouting "Goodbye, don't come back"

[culicine]

Are we one step closer to a civil war? My God I hope not.

Simply can't happen.......you see it is a well known opinion among some of the would be experts on Thaivisa, that every thought, every action of the red shirts is funded and sanctioned by Thaksin. Thus if he removes the stimulus and financial support the group would cease to exist.........

or have these experts been rather blinkered in their approach?

The situation in Thailand has all the ingredients for a civil war.

Excepting one thing.......

At this moment in time there is no benefit to any of the major players by allowing civil war........the shifting sands of Thai politics...

Actually the red-shirts could hold lots of sway with a similar mass protest as before. How would this government respond ? - they were voted in by the red-shirt populace afterall, and there would be plenty of red-shirts occupying positions of power in the military and police force. However, bringing everyone to justice includes deaths / bombings / burning caused by red shirts, so perhaps more protests won't help their cause. Perhaps they expect individuals to be brought to justice, but in most cases I don't see that happening. It could come back to haunt them later.

[KireB]

The red/black shirts committed the first and many subsequent acts of violence before the overly patient gov't sent the army in and even then they waited even longer before finally dealing with these criminals.

As far as I know, that is incorrect. If we are talking about April 10 2010, and I think we are, then the first victim was a protester shot by a sniper. The violence by the MIB did not come first.

But that does not excuse the violence by either side, does it?

Would that be "unidentified sniper"? And exactly what purpose would the random killing of a protester serve the RTA who are just about to start a crowd dispersal operation with troops equipped with shields and batons? BTW a non-lethal strategy

How do you totally discount that that killing was carried out by the MIB? Who benefits?

Do you think it is normal for an RTA sniper team of 2 to collude to a senseless thrill murder?

Quote from one of the best films ever, JFK (1991):

"Why did it happen? Who benefited? Who has the power to cover it up?"

The army and certainly the government at the time, who had shown an extremely dose of restraint, certainly didn't benefit from the killings at Kok Wua/Democracy Monument! This is quite a sanctuary for those with knowledge about Thai history! The body snatching and parading of corpses (poor martyrs!) right after the showdown also points in one direction, and one direction only sorry to conclude!

[473geo]

Actually the red-shirts could hold lots of sway with a similar mass protest as before. How would this government respond ? - they were voted in by the red-shirt populace afterall, and there would be plenty of red-shirts occupying positions of power in the military and police force. However, bringing everyone to justice includes deaths / bombings / burning caused by red shirts, so perhaps more protests won't help their cause. Perhaps they expect individuals to be brought to justice, but in most cases I don't see that happening. It could come back to haunt them later.

How so? If the "experts" on Tvisa are to be believed, the last protest was "manufactured" and financially supported by Thaksin. The red shirts have no substance other than being paid attendees......which would surely not be the case if they opposed the current government...

Or are you saying the Tvisa "experts" are wrong?

Edited May 20, 2012 by 473geo

[KireB]

I don't need to elaborate, like many, you need to accept that Thailand has not arrived at this place in time due to one man. When you can adapt and broaden your view, read a little of the information available outside Tvisa, you may understand. Thaksin has played a part in the proceedings no doubt, another massive miscalculation by the would be controllers, but you understimate the importance of the real power brokers in action. If you understand you will have noticed the shifting sands that await Thai politics yet again.......

I do actually agree with most of what you write here! Thaksin is indeed a continuation of the corrupt lot of politicians that came before him and I agree that he forms only a part of the real active power brokers. Unfortunately we cannot elaborate on the others as you might well understand! But your use of words like: " when you can adapt, broaden your view, read a little, you underestimate, if you understand, are a bit too much! Almost cocky!

Whether Thaksin is a continuation or not, corrupt politicians have to go to prison! Welcome to the new world, Saddam got a trial, Milosevic and Mladic got theirs, Kadaffi is past history and so is Osama, and what about Mubarak? Thaksin is and was a corrupt criminal, called politician, and will have to held responsible! What happened in the last 80 years in Thailand is irrelevant if the Thais want to move on in this global world! And the whole red shirt movement is not one, but ten steps back in time. Do you understand?

[lovetotravel]

From the same Chicago Times article quoted above:

"Most red shirts I spoke to said that if they were forced to choose, they would rather see those responsible for the violence go to jail than bring Thaksin home to Thailand," Thida Thawornseth, leader of the red shirts' United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship, told Reuters.

Flapping of chicken wings noises

Oh no. UDD will disappear if it gets cross with it banker. Er, Mr. T. We should be so lucky.

[lovetotravel]

Are we one step closer to a civil war? My God I hope not.

Simply can't happen.......you see it is a well known opinion among some of the would be experts on Thaivisa, that every thought, every action of the red shirts is funded and sanctioned by Thaksin. Thus if he removes the stimulus and financial support the group would cease to exist.........

or have these experts been rather blinkered in their approach?

It's a well known fact he is the #1 financial backer of the red shirts. If they cross Mr. T, it'll be an entirely different story for the reds. But agree, he doesn't sanction every action. Just financially supports them.

[473geo]

I don't need to elaborate, like many, you need to accept that Thailand has not arrived at this place in time due to one man. When you can adapt and broaden your view, read a little of the information available outside Tvisa, you may understand. Thaksin has played a part in the proceedings no doubt, another massive miscalculation by the would be controllers, but you understimate the importance of the real power brokers in action. If you understand you will have noticed the shifting sands that await Thai politics yet again.......

I do actually agree with most of what you write here! Thaksin is indeed a continuation of the corrupt lot of politicians that came before him and I agree that he forms only a part of the real active power brokers. Unfortunately we cannot elaborate on the others as you might well understand! But your use of words like: " when you can adapt, broaden your view, read a little, you underestimate, if you understand, are a bit too much! Almost cocky!

Whether Thaksin is a continuation or not, corrupt politicians have to go to prison! Welcome to the new world, Saddam got a trial, Milosevic and Mladic got theirs, Kadaffi is past history and so is Osama, and what about Mubarak? Thaksin is and was a corrupt criminal, called politician, and will have to held responsible! What happened in the last 80 years in Thailand is irrelevant if the Thais want to move on in this global world! And the whole red shirt movement is not one, but ten steps back in time. Do you understand?

I believe at the moment Thaksin is convicted of financial irregularity.......nothing more.....a 2 year jail sentence which he chooses to avoid......

Now if you are to call all leaders who have forces who have caused casualties, in what they see as the best interests of their country........then you have a long list of criminals.....and by far all are not politicians either......

In fact the constant resetting of the country in the last 80 years is exactly what has brought us to where we are today, now if Thailand is allowed to go through the process of elections, and yes perhaps even a few terms of poor government, to finally abandon the coup method, they might just catch up in the global village, so in that concept the red shirts may not have protested and died in vain.....

Edited May 20, 2012 by 473geo

[Skywalker69]

I believe at the moment Thaksin is convicted of financial irregularity.

You make it sound´s like he got a parking ticket.

[473geo]

I believe at the moment Thaksin is convicted of financial irregularity.

You make it sound´s like he got a parking ticket.

And if you read KireB post #320..........it would appear he may have been singled out of a long line........interesting eh?

[KireB]

I believe at the moment Thaksin is convicted of financial irregularity.

You make it sound´s like he got a parking ticket.

And if you read KireB post #320..........it would appear he may have been singled out of a long line........interesting eh?

Which doesn't mean it's a parking ticket! The fact that he is part of a long line of despotic criminals don't make his crimes less relevant!

[Siripon]

Actually the red-shirts could hold lots of sway with a similar mass protest as before. How would this government respond ? - they were voted in by the red-shirt populace afterall, and there would be plenty of red-shirts occupying positions of power in the military and police force. However, bringing everyone to justice includes deaths / bombings / burning caused by red shirts, so perhaps more protests won't help their cause. Perhaps they expect individuals to be brought to justice, but in most cases I don't see that happening. It could come back to haunt them later.

How so? If the "experts" on Tvisa are to be believed, the last protest was "manufactured" and financially supported by Thaksin. The red shirts have no substance other than being paid attendees......which would surely not be the case if they opposed the current government...

Or are you saying the Tvisa "experts" are wrong?

Every major red shirt rally has to have Thaksin phone in. The leaders know full well that without him there will only be 3 men and a couple of dogs present.

[hyperdimension]

From the same Chicago Times article quoted above:

"Most red shirts I spoke to said that if they were forced to choose, they would rather see those responsible for the violence go to jail than bring Thaksin home to Thailand," Thida Thawornseth, leader of the red shirts' United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship, told Reuters.

But the two options are not mutually exclusive - Thaksin needs to come home to Thailand in order to be held accountable for the violence and go to jail.

[volk666]

I don't need to elaborate, like many, you need to accept that Thailand has not arrived at this place in time due to one man. ...

Not if you listen to PTP/red propaganda machine - Thaksin is the only one who cares about the poor, Thaksin is the only one who cleared this country of drugs, Thaksin is the one who paid off IMF debt and restored Thailand's indepence, Thaksin is the only PM who sat out his term, Thaksin is the only one who got re-elected with absolute majority, Thaksin is the ..... Once they even set a library dedicated to Thaksin's personal glories, and now I think I'm only approaching 2006.

Thaksin had proven time and time again that he is the only politician that matters in this country and anyone wishing to stay in politics here has learned the hard lesson that without Thaksin they have nothing.

Two parties won two elections simply by pledging their allegiance to him and those who deserted him were crushed.

On the day of Yingluck's victory there were more reporters at Thaksin's residence in Dubai than back here in Bangkok.

Let's not diminish his humble contribution to the unfolding events in this country.

[gand]

The red/black shirts committed the first and many subsequent acts of violence before the overly patient gov't sent the army in and even then they waited even longer before finally dealing with these criminals.

As far as I know, that is incorrect. If we are talking about April 10 2010, and I think we are, then the first victim was a protester shot by a sniper. The violence by the MIB did not come first.

But that does not excuse the violence by either side, does it?

There were dozens of M79 grenade attacks before that date. And what makes you think the sniper was RTA and not red/black shirt ex military?