Manchester United

[mrbojangles]

Probably made up by a RAG to suit.

• Simon says:

  November 17, 2012 at 9:17 am

  I run the site, i’m a Manchester United fan. We have one Liverpool fan in the group of judges, a Chelsea fan and a Sunderland fan. Sorry to burst your bubble, witchsmeller.

just brush everything under the carpet hey because it does not suit city's agenda, back to blue moon they will listen to you on there.

What are you talking about nev. Do you actually read posts before responding?

I said probably made up by a RAG and you just posted the above "i run the site, I'm a Manchester United fan" . That is exactly what I said and you proved it. I think enough said on that drivel.

And a chelsea liverpool and sunderland fans, so 3 out of 4 unbiased so just highlight manchester united nothing new there just another obssessedwith united bitter

I hightlighted the Manchester United bit because that it was I had stated in the earlier post and you had proved me right. I don't remember guessing anything about Chelsea or Sunderland fans. The OWNER of the site is a RAG, says enough for me to take what is on that site with a pich of salt,

[redrus]

Stop blaming referees for your team's failure

- talkSPORT Opinion

Manchester United were not eliminated from the Champions League because of a referee, they lost because Real Madrid scored more goals than they did. The great shame of this week's events was not the red card, but the disgraceful abuse given to the referee.

Match official Cuneyt Cakir has received death threats after giving Nani a red card. How utterly pathetic. He didn't have the benefit of countless television replays, he made a decision having seen the Portuguese player plant his studs into Alvaro Arbeloa's chest. We can all have an opinion on whether he made the right decision, but he was an experienced official making a call after viewing a second's worth of action from a particular angle. Try it some time, it's not easy.

Cakir didn't score a brilliant goal from the edge of United's box – that was Luka Modric. Cakir didn't construct a beautiful team move to set up a winner for Cristiano Ronaldo – that was the Portuguese attacker's team-mates.

'But United would have won if Nani wasn't sent off!' lament Cakir's fiercest critics. That is pure speculation. They may have won 3-0 on the night if it was 11 v 11, they may have lost 3-1. If, if, if. ITV's panel of pundits may not have agreed on the red card, but Roy Keane, Lee Dixon and Gareth Southgate were all in agreement that the tie was very much in the balance before United were reduced to 10 men.

Blaming the referee is an excuse. Sometimes it has a certain validity, but having a man sent off does not automatically mean you must concede two goals. United were not instantly doomed to concede twice, just as Real were not immediately guaranteed to score.

When a team goes down to ten men something has to give and, depending on the score at that moment, defensive solidity usually takes priority over attacking prowess. In this case, United lost an attacking player who, with some tactical reshuffling, could have been replaced without necessarily compromising their defensive solidity a great deal.

Sir Alex Ferguson chose not to utilise his substitutes when Nani was sent off, instead moving Welbeck to cover Nani's position, leaving Robin van Persie up front, seemingly at the cost of his plan to have the England international stifle Xabi Alonso. Remember, United did not need to score again at that point to progress – if they could have kept a clean sheet they would have gone through.

Jose Mourinho, by contrast, made a quick substitution, bringing Modric on for Arbeloa, with Sami Khedira moving to right-back. This gave Real extra creativity in attack.

It seems as though Ferguson was not prepared to resort to the all-out defensive tactics that Chelsea deployed after John Terry's sending off in their 2012 semi-final against Barcelona. In that game, Roberto Di Matteo responded to the Blues being reduced to 10 men by pulling front man Didier Drogba into the left side of midfield, replacing Ramires, who moved to right-back, allowing Jose Bosingwa to cover Terry's position at centre-back. It meant Chelsea were effectively playing without a striker, as Di Matteo prioritised defending a score that would see his team through.

Chelsea were more in awe of Barcelona than United were of Real, but with half an hour left at Old Trafford and the Red Devils leading, pragmatism was called for.

With the beauty of hindsight, Ferguson could have sacrificed the ineffective Van Persie and more of United's attacking potential, allowing Welbeck to continue his harrying job on Alonso, with Ashley Young brought on earlier to play on the left-hand side.

United's retention of an attacking threat after Nani's red card, but before Real scored, is borne out by match statistics that show, in the minutes after his dismissal, Fergie's team actually had three attempts on target to Real's none. With Modric on the pitch, scheming along with Mesut Ozil, however, Madrid went on to score two excellent goals.

The quality of Real's goals, United's defending and the substitutions of both coaches have largely been ignored, however, in favour of haranguing a referee's decision that, even if you vehemently believe was wrong, was certainly what is described in football as 'I've seen them given'.

So we can now add Cuneyt Cakir's name to those of Urs Meier (referee for Portugal v England at Euro 2004) and Anders Frisk (Barcelona v Chelsea in 2005) to a list of match officials blamed for a team's failure on the pitch. Not to mention subsequently harrassed to an unacceptable level for making an honest decision.

Had Chelsea lost to Barcelona in 2012, it is likely some fans would have chosen to blame the referee, but luckily for the man in charge that night the Blues played well enough to get through. The name of that referee? Cuneyt Cakir.

What do you think? Is the criticism of referees too much?

redrus

[rixalex]

Of course nothing justifies death threats against refs. That's totally stupid. But what does make the situation worse, is the way that after decisions like this, we never hear the ref explaining / justifying his decision, and we certainly never hear, refs holding up their hands and admitting that whilst they thought it was the correct decision at the time, in hindsight they now accept the decision was wrong. For some reason there seems to be a feeling that for a ref to come out and admit having made a mistake, it would be in some way undermining their position and their decision. I don't think it would. Refs are only human and of course they will make mistakes at times. Everyone knows that and everyone accepts that. It's part of the game. Refs remaining silent appears like some sort of effort to deny this, to sweep under the rug what we all know. If refs were held in some way accountable after games - not by being punished, but simply being made to explain their decisions and give their side of things, and even apologise if they feel it's appropriate - i think it would go an awful long way to calming situations.

[mjj]

Ref's should have to be interviewed after the match. Although, they do have to make split second decision's, so if they get some wrong it shouldn't be a witch hunt. If on the other hand the ref looked biased too much, they should be put under more pressure in the interview. The interview shouldn't be conducted to ridicule, just gain their perspective.

[mrbojangles]

Stop blaming referees for your team's failure

- talkSPORT Opinion

Manchester United were not eliminated from the Champions League because of a referee, they lost because Real Madrid scored more goals than they did.

Absolutely

Blaming the referee is an excuse. Sometimes it has a certain validity, but having a man sent off does not automatically mean you must concede two goals. United were not instantly doomed to concede twice, just as Real were not immediately guaranteed to score.

When a team goes down to ten men something has to give and, depending on the score at that moment, defensive solidity usually takes priority over attacking prowess. In this case, United lost an attacking player who, with some tactical reshuffling, could have been replaced without necessarily compromising their defensive solidity a great deal.

Spot on.

[mrbojangles]

Ref's should have to be interviewed after the match. Although, they do have to make split second decision's, so if they get some wrong it shouldn't be a witch hunt. If on the other hand the ref looked biased too much, they should be put under more pressure in the interview. The interview shouldn't be conducted to ridicule, just gain their perspective.

I agree. I wonder if part of the frustration at refs decisions is down to the secrecy behind why he made a judgement. Utopia for me, is to go a step further and them fitted with a microphone, like the do in Rugby.

[rixalex]

With regards how we and how other teams cope with being down a man, i think it makes a huge difference how you end up in that position. If one of your players goes flying in late to a tackle with studs in the air, or if one of your players is the last defender and clips the opposing striker as he breaks through on goal, you might still not like it, but you generally take the refs decision and move on. The team and the manager protests for a few minutes, and then they put it to one side and work out a new strategy. We ourselves have been in that same position, as all teams have, and in those circumstances we have quite often managed to successfully continue the match and get the result we wanted in spite of the numerical disadvantage.

When a decision however comes completely out of the blue and when you feel the refs action is completely disproportionate, the effect on everyone, the fans, the players, the manager, can be much more severe. Easy enough saying what the team should have done after the match, but during it, in the heat of all the emotion, it's much harder doing it, and i don't think there is any team out there that couldn't be as equally destabilized and distracted given the same sort of circumstances. And i guarantee also that there isn't a team out there that following that sort of a match, wouldn't feel the refs decision had been instrumental in the final result. To all those who argue otherwise, and to all those who have played down the effect of the ref's decision and instead blamed it on the team, all i can say is that i eagerly await the next game in which those people's teams suffer at the hands of a ridiculous reffing decision, and will be on hand to remind them, just in case they have forgotten, that the ref wasn't to blame.

[MrRed]

Good post Rix.....they will all be squealing sooner or later.

[mrbojangles]

they will all be squealing sooner or later.

As I mentioned earlier Red, only in January Vinny Kompany got sent off against Arsenal at the Emirates. At that very moment we were all in disbelief and knew it was a huge refereeing mistake. City readjusted and carried on like pro's do and we still went onto win 0-2. City were so confident that an injustice had been done we went to appeal and Vinny was vindicated as he had a successful appeal and the Red was rescinded.

Please now prepare a better excuse as "we lost cos we were sulking" doesn't really cut it with me.

Additionally, will Nani appeal or not? if he is that convinced he was hard done by, he has to go to appeal.

[MrRed]

they will all be squealing sooner or later.

As I mentioned earlier Red, only in January Vinny Kompany got sent off against Arsenal at the Emirates. At that very moment we were all in disbelief and knew it was a huge refereeing mistake. City readjusted and carried on like pro's do and we still went onto win 0-2. City were so confident that an injustice had been done we went to appeal and Vinny was vindicated as he had a successful appeal and the Red was rescinded.

Please now prepare a better excuse as "we lost cos we were sulking" doesn't really cut it with me.

Additionally, will Nani appeal or not? if he is that convinced he was hard done by, he has to go to appeal.

I think appealing in a knock out competition and a league are different don't you?

The games are different if you lose a man in a cup game against much better opposition then it will hurt you more as opposed to maybe just losing three points and carrying on the season.

I wish you would stop going on about it now ....it seems you have nothing left to talk about you are still in the FA Cup you know with another easy draw from the FA and you are still in with a chance of the league(OK your not really :-))

And Vincent himself stated on twatter that it was definitely not a red card so we are all entitled to out opinions.

[mrbojangles]

I wish you would stop going on about it now ....

I will, if you will.

And Vincent himself stated on twatter that it was definitely not a red card so we are all entitled to out opinions.

I am only giving my opinion, just as you are.

[MrRed]

Fark me i hope your not like this when it is your turn buying a round ;-)

[smokie36]

Yawn.

Who you playing at the weekend?

[MrRed]

Yawn.

Who you playing at the weekend?

MrBojangles

[mrbojangles]

Fark me i hope your not like this when it is your turn buying a round ;-)

Hopefully we'll find out one day. However, I would prefer it on a non United match day

[MrRed]

Derby day would be perrrrrfect!!

[smedly]

most teams can deal with a red card and get on with it "but" and it's a very "big but" - that is providing the red card is justified - in this instance it was very clearly not justified and such a decission by a ref can have a severe effect on the 10 remaining players, it took MU at least 15 mins to recover and by then is was all lost

[Jayroo]

Of course nothing justifies death threats against refs. That's totally stupid. But what does make the situation worse, is the way that after decisions like this, we never hear the ref explaining / justifying his decision, and we certainly never hear, refs holding up their hands and admitting that whilst they thought it was the correct decision at the time, in hindsight they now accept the decision was wrong. For some reason there seems to be a feeling that for a ref to come out and admit having made a mistake, it would be in some way undermining their position and their decision. I don't think it would. Refs are only human and of course they will make mistakes at times. Everyone knows that and everyone accepts that. It's part of the game. Refs remaining silent appears like some sort of effort to deny this, to sweep under the rug what we all know. If refs were held in some way accountable after games - not by being punished, but simply being made to explain their decisions and give their side of things, and even apologise if they feel it's appropriate - i think it would go an awful long way to calming situations.

It wasn't a mistake so get the ef over it, even Roy Keane said it was a RED!! sheesh!!

[rixalex]

most teams can deal with a red card and get on with it "but" and it's a very "big but" - that is providing the red card is justified - in this instance it was very clearly not justified and such a decission by a ref can have a severe effect on the 10 remaining players, it took MU at least 15 mins to recover and by then is was all lost

Yep and i'm in no doubt that if we could turn back the clock and switch the decision over onto a Real Madrid player, the effect on the them would have been exactly the same, and they would not have won the game. The last three days would have then been spent with dozens of people posting on this thread about how United owed their victory to the ref and about how it was never a red card. And nobody would have been blaming Real Madrid for not being able to fight back a man down.

[Jayroo]

most teams can deal with a red card and get on with it "but" and it's a very "big but" - that is providing the red card is justified - in this instance it was very clearly not justified and such a decission by a ref can have a severe effect on the 10 remaining players, it took MU at least 15 mins to recover and by then is was all lost

Yep and i'm in no doubt that if we could turn back the clock and switch the decision over onto a Real Madrid player, the effect on the them would have been exactly the same, and they would not have won the game. The last three days would have then been spent with dozens of people posting on this thread about how United owed their victory to the ref and about how it was never a red card. And nobody would have been blaming Real Madrid for not being able to fight back a man down.

I believe if any player had been sent off for Madrid bar Ronaldo, had the roles being reversed, Madrid would've still scored, as typical united would've thought the game was won already, so Mourinho and co would've capitalized on this.

[smedly]

in fact the decission was so bad in my opinion - either that ref should not involved in a game at that level or he should be investigated for possible match fixing - it was shocking and very suspect

[rixalex]

Of course nothing justifies death threats against refs. That's totally stupid. But what does make the situation worse, is the way that after decisions like this, we never hear the ref explaining / justifying his decision, and we certainly never hear, refs holding up their hands and admitting that whilst they thought it was the correct decision at the time, in hindsight they now accept the decision was wrong. For some reason there seems to be a feeling that for a ref to come out and admit having made a mistake, it would be in some way undermining their position and their decision. I don't think it would. Refs are only human and of course they will make mistakes at times. Everyone knows that and everyone accepts that. It's part of the game. Refs remaining silent appears like some sort of effort to deny this, to sweep under the rug what we all know. If refs were held in some way accountable after games - not by being punished, but simply being made to explain their decisions and give their side of things, and even apologise if they feel it's appropriate - i think it would go an awful long way to calming situations.

It wasn't a mistake so get the ef over it, even Roy Keane said it was a RED!! sheesh!!

How convenient. Out of the dozens of people within football questioned on the incident over the last few days, you chose to name one of the very few who said it was a red. The vast majority said that it wasn't. The vast majority said it was at most a yellow. Why not quote all of those people? Ronaldo and Mourinho obviously thought it was a bad decision too judging by comments and body language. Why is it so difficult for you to accept that the ref made a mistake and that mistake gave "your" team a big advantage at a time when you were losing? Why is that such a difficult concession for you to make? Is your head really that deeply buried? Or are you that lacking in any sort of sporting grace? For goodness sake...

Edited March 8, 2013 by rixalex

[mrbojangles]

Derby day would be perrrrrfect!!

Actually, I'm awaiting the daughters passport to come back from renewal. There is a chance I will be in Chaiyaphum on derby day and was wondering about where to watch it.

[BangrakBob]

Still bangin' on about the red card I see....

[BIGTOE3]

And there's me thinking that Utd lost

No wonder you used that emotion Alfie, You and Thinking in the same comment

BT

[Chicog]

<deleted> get over it.

This wailing and gnashing of teeth is pathetic.

[rixalex]

<deleted> get over it.

This wailing and gnashing of teeth is pathetic.

Mate, if in ten years time someone comes up to me and argues that that was a red card and that that sending off didn't play a massive role in the result of the game, i'm still going to argue otherwise. Won't mean i'm not over it.

Had Real Madrid cheated in some way, or had we played really badly... those are the circumstances i would find hard to get over. Ref making a stupid mistake is just one of those things.

[redrus]

Booked my flight to LOS yesterday, good airline. Good price. There all over Christmas too.

Might let some of you buy me a pint.

redrus

Ps I'm not changing the subject or owt.

[mrbojangles]

Booked my flight to LOS yesterday, good airline. Good price. There all over Christmas too.

Might let some of you buy me a pint.

Looks like my plans might change and will go to UK in Oct, so will hopefully be in Thailand over xmas. If so, will deffo meet up again Russ.

[nev]

Derby day would be perrrrrfect!!

Actually, I'm awaiting the daughters passport to come back from renewal. There is a chance I will be in Chaiyaphum on derby day and was wondering about where to watch it.

My place not far maybe 1 hour away and Mr red can come too