Opposition M P Denies Avoiding Military Service: Thailand

[scorecard]

G'kid, do You really think people will believe your claims of compliance by those now in the pt / red ranks? Inherent in what your claiming is that they all complied out of a sense of duty / they are all of high morals and ethics. As already said, what utter bullshXX. In fact it's the total opposite.

There would be some who did not have one of the means (cash) to 'avoid' the draft, but there are other means of 'escaping' and getting the right color on your draft papers.

In regard to abhisit (and others) you try to paint the picture that being born into wealth is somehow shameful. Again what bullshXX.

Whether you admit it or not, 99% of the folks who make up this wonderful country (including 99% of the pt / udd / red followers) have very strongly embraced capitaliizm, material possessions and display of those possessions, and wealth. Plus there's a sizeable % (regardless of party / color affiliations) who have no qualms about where the money comes from, some of them through taking membership of a 'get rich very quick club'. In your view, legitimate or non-legitimate wealth, they are all shameful, right?

Edited November 15, 2012 by scorecard

[tragickingdom]

It is very clear that Royalists are not drafted. They have the means and the contacts to be issued with exemption forms. In a matter of fact no rich Thai will ever be drafted, most of them are exempt anyhow as ladyboys ....

[OzMick]

It is very clear that Royalists are not drafted. They have the means and the contacts to be issued with exemption forms. In a matter of fact no rich Thai will ever be drafted, most of them are exempt anyhow as ladyboys ....

The overwhelming majority of people in Thailand would class themselves as Royalists, and still manage to be conscripted.

After that amazing piece of misinformation, your statements continue downhill at an ever accelerating pace. Congratulations.

[khunken]

It is very clear that Royalists are not drafted. They have the means and the contacts to be issued with exemption forms. In a matter of fact no rich Thai will ever be drafted, most of them are exempt anyhow as ladyboys ....

Well, there has been some wacky posts on this thread, but that takes the biscuit.

I think you are just trolling.

[khunken]

As for the post about how PTP contains all those wonderful & honest people who wouldn't dream of missing their draft - my sympathies for whatever has caused you to believe that. What is clear is that such a sweeping statement can never be verified.

What can be verified is that PTP contains liars, cheats & filthy rich people, many of who can not truthfully say where their assets come from. Add to that a fair smattering of ex-military types (why do most of them join PTP & its predecessors?) who have risen to the top like the froth on a pint.

[belidofan]

Thailand on the path towards becoming a one-party-state. Removing prominent members of the oposition from the political landscape is step one. I wouldn't be surprised if in ten years, Myanmar and Malaysia are the only true democratic nations in the region.

Pheu Thai MP and Red-Shirt Leader Weng Tojirakarn yesterday called on fellow red shirts to eradicate the Democrat Party

http://www.thaivisa....d/#entry5396917

.

How does your post relate to the MPs avoiding military service? Don't you think there is something fundamentally wrong with senior political figures avoiding service, but very willing to use the military to carry out their dirty work?

Can you understand now, why there was a near mutiny in the ranks at the time of the Bangkok uprising?

Those that do their service have no respect for those that obtain deferments or avoid service altogether. It doesn't matter which party it is, Unfortunately, the Democrats seem to have many in its leadership ranks that didn't serve their country.

this guy is pathetic as ever, just wont give up....have a Khmer Rouge/Red Thai membership card?

[ratcatcher]

As for the post about how PTP contains all those wonderful & honest people who wouldn't dream of missing their draft - my sympathies for whatever has caused you to believe that. What is clear is that such a sweeping statement can never be verified.

What can be verified is that PTP contains liars, cheats & filthy rich people, many of who can not truthfully say where their assets come from. Add to that a fair smattering of ex-military types (why do most of them join PTP & its predecessors?) who have risen to the top like the froth on a pint.

As an occasional beer drinker , I must take exception to your comparison. Perhaps a more apt description might be they rose to the top" like the scum on a septic tank".

Beer after all is enjoyed by millions, unlike corrupt politicians?

[ratcatcher]

Thailand on the path towards becoming a one-party-state. Removing prominent members of the oposition from the political landscape is step one. I wouldn't be surprised if in ten years, Myanmar and Malaysia are the only true democratic nations in the region.

Pheu Thai MP and Red-Shirt Leader Weng Tojirakarn yesterday called on fellow red shirts to eradicate the Democrat Party

http://www.thaivisa....d/#entry5396917

.

How does your post relate to the MPs avoiding military service? Don't you think there is something fundamentally wrong with senior political figures avoiding service, but very willing to use the military to carry out their dirty work?

Can you understand now, why there was a near mutiny in the ranks at the time of the Bangkok uprising?

Those that do their service have no respect for those that obtain deferments or avoid service altogether. It doesn't matter which party it is, Unfortunately, the Democrats seem to have many in its leadership ranks that didn't serve their country.

this guy is pathetic as ever, just wont give up....have a Khmer Rouge/Red Thai membership card?

You bet!

"Like other radical intellectuals, Weng and his wife, the microbiologist Thida Thavornseth, joined the illegal Communist Party of Thailand and fled to their camps in the jungle."

source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weng_Tojirakarn

Edited November 15, 2012 by ratcatcher

[Noistar]

Let's see

What's more important at the moment?

Seeing democracy in action with the elected Opposition performing their role of challenging Government policies and actions, or trying to prevent democracy from running its course.

Another example of the PTP version of democracy. The familiar chant "we won the election we can do what we want"

Can the red supporters please tell me how they perceive Thailand when all the PTP policies are implemented?

I can only see doom and gloom, so I'd love to be reassured

[geriatrickid]

My point relates to the post I quoted.

The one that highlights the one-sidedness of the Pheu Thai attack on opposition leadership. These attacks are aimed at attempting to eradicate the party as the Red Shirt Leader Out On Bail is prompting for.

If the Pheu Thai Party is willing to undergo the same scrutiny, then let's go for it.

Let's take an equal look at all 650 members of both the House and Senate in a fair (and non-"double standard") manner.

Until such time, we are left with your uneven claim, "the Democrats seem to have many in its leadership ranks that didn't serve their country."

.

Feel free to go down the list of PTP leadership and identify those that evaded their national service.

You will be sorely disappointed. National service is one common feature of many in the PTP leadership and it is a shared mutual experience that binds some of them. National service does not necessarily mean army service. It includes service in the navy, air force, police and fire service. (Bet you didn't know that the fire service comes under the police administration as part of the security organization.) As well, successful completeion of the officer training program while in school also satisfies the national service requirement. Look at the top officials of the PTP in the House. They all did service. The Deputy PMs, did it and some are so proud of their national service they have retained their ranks.

The likelihood of PTP leadership having greater complaince should not come as a surprise as a career in the military or police was seen as a prudent career advancement strategy, because it provided a way of sidestepping the entrenched oligarchy of families that control much of Thailand's wealth. Yes, some PTP leaders have built up some wealth, but their assets pale in comparison to the families that dominate the ranks of the Democrat party. A career in the public service was a way of to get ahead. Many leaders of the Democrat party did not need a leg up as they already had their positions virtually assured. One need only look at Abhisit's political career. He neer worked in the private sector, and did a cursory stint as a teacher before being parachuted into a safe seat.

If it's all just the same to you, rather than the GeriatricKid Commission, or even your proposed Buchholz Committee for that matter, looking into my quoted "all 650 members," I'd prefer some other group do so.

Preferably one willing to spend more than 20 minutes.

Ahh so you now admit that you do not have anything substantive to support your allegations that PTP MPs have evaded national service. Nice.

Why not deal with what is known? The senior cabinet members of the PTP did their national service. Some still call themselves General or Group Captain or Police Captain. Unfortunately, key leaders of the Democrat party have questionable national service records, e.g. Abhisit, Korn etc. Instead of offering innuendo to further your obsession of denigrating all things PTP, why not deal with the existing known facts? Does the truth cause you discomfort?

Edited November 15, 2012 by geriatrickid

[geriatrickid]

Dear G'kid, you wrote: ".....Can you understand now, why there was a near mutiny in the ranks at the time of the Bangkok uprising?

Those that do their service have no respect for those that obtain deferments or avoid service altogether. It doesn't matter which party it is, Unfortunately, the.... "

Please provide some support for your statement, especially your words about 'near mutiny'?

The Queens Guards were brought in after the general staff officers did not forcefully confront the protestors.

The same units implicated in previous military coups were involved in the confrontations following the replacement of the general staff officers with Queens Guard units. The concern was that the general staff officers were dragging their feet and resisting physical engagement with the protestors. This has been extensively reported.

In your mind a unit rotation equates to a near mutiny?

Being caught holding a sheet of plastic and a stick is very demoralising when the opposition turns out not to be "peaceful protesters" but a group of heavily armed insurgents. It also tends to cause anger both at the opposition and the troops own commanders, so in order to maintain good order and discipline, those troops should be rotated out ASAP. Mutiny my Rs.

Plus g'kid, you tried to link your so called 'mutiny' to draft avoiders, plus you say the ptp guys "....all did service...." I guess you thought nobody would notice, your caught again g'kid!

Also, please provide some evidence for your big statement that the ptp guys "....all did service...."

The fact is that the general staff officers that were tasked with responding to the Bangkok protests were indeed relieved of their command duties by officers from Royal Guard units. Do you really want to have a discussion of the tensions within the officer ranks that occurred subsequent to the intervention of Royal Guard units? It has been analysed and discussed in multiple media sources.

The fact of the matter is that the PTP leadership is more likely than Democrat leadership to have done actual boots on the ground, getting one's hands dirty national service. The ability to evade national service is related to financial resources and social position. The PTP leadership for the most part comes from a demographic that is outside the ruling oligarchy. More importantly,some in the the PTP leadership sought police or military service or careers as a strategic career decision. They did this because they did not have the family wealth or conections that characterizes some of the Democrat leadership. Why are you having such a difficult time accepting this? The military and police services have been a career path for many Thais of modest means for quite some time.

Edited November 15, 2012 by geriatrickid

[Noistar]

Is there any mileage in asking how this makes things better for Thailand?

A democratic government running rough-shod over democracy on the road to who-knows-where, and an obsession with 'reconciliation' meaning dragging up issues from the past which may not be supported by evidence.

Are we taking bets on a coup or civil war?

[Buchholz]

Feel free to go down the list of PTP leadership and identify those that evaded their national service.

You will be sorely disappointed. National service is one common feature of many in the PTP leadership and it is a shared mutual experience that binds some of them. National service does not necessarily mean army service. It includes service in the navy, air force, police and fire service. (Bet you didn't know that the fire service comes under the police administration as part of the security organization.) As well, successful completeion of the officer training program while in school also satisfies the national service requirement. Look at the top officials of the PTP in the House. They all did service. The Deputy PMs, did it and some are so proud of their national service they have retained their ranks.

The likelihood of PTP leadership having greater complaince should not come as a surprise as a career in the military or police was seen as a prudent career advancement strategy, because it provided a way of sidestepping the entrenched oligarchy of families that control much of Thailand's wealth. Yes, some PTP leaders have built up some wealth, but their assets pale in comparison to the families that dominate the ranks of the Democrat party. A career in the public service was a way of to get ahead. Many leaders of the Democrat party did not need a leg up as they already had their positions virtually assured. One need only look at Abhisit's political career. He neer worked in the private sector, and did a cursory stint as a teacher before being parachuted into a safe seat.

If it's all just the same to you, rather than the GeriatricKid Commission, or even your proposed Buchholz Committee for that matter, looking into my quoted "all 650 members," I'd prefer some other group do so.

Preferably one willing to spend more than 20 minutes.

Ahh so you now admit that you do not have anything substantive to support your allegations that PTP MPs have evaded national service. Nice.

You've somehow misread my post. I'm just saying I'm not willing to come to your sweeping generalizations with such finality as you have without expending the necessary time to actually find out the details.

That's completely different than your distorted summation.

To investigate 650 people takes time and resources. If somehow this odyssey from 26 years ago is as big a deal as the PTP is trying to make it out to be, then by all means, check every one of them.

.

Edited November 15, 2012 by Buchholz

[backtonormal]

Dear G'kid, you wrote: ".....Can you understand now, why there was a near mutiny in the ranks at the time of the Bangkok uprising?

Those that do their service have no respect for those that obtain deferments or avoid service altogether. It doesn't matter which party it is, Unfortunately, the.... "

Please provide some support for your statement, especially your words about 'near mutiny'?

If we are referring to 2010 in Bangkok I would agree with the near mutiny statement. All water melon soldiers were removed off the firing line and back to barracks because of fear they would refuse orders to shoot their own. Refusing orders is mutiny. Do you want anymore facts

[backtonormal]

Dear G'kid, you wrote: ".....Can you understand now, why there was a near mutiny in the ranks at the time of the Bangkok uprising?

Those that do their service have no respect for those that obtain deferments or avoid service altogether. It doesn't matter which party it is, Unfortunately, the.... "

Please provide some support for your statement, especially your words about 'near mutiny'?

The Queens Guards were brought in after the general staff officers did not forcefully confront the protestors.

The same units implicated in previous military coups were involved in the confrontations following the replacement of the general staff officers with Queens Guard units. The concern was that the general staff officers were dragging their feet and resisting physical engagement with the protestors. This has been extensively reported.

In your mind a unit rotation equates to a near mutiny?

Being caught holding a sheet of plastic and a stick is very demoralising when the opposition turns out not to be "peaceful protesters" but a group of heavily armed insurgents. It also tends to cause anger both at the opposition and the troops own commanders, so in order to maintain good order and discipline, those troops should be rotated out ASAP. Mutiny my Rs.

Troop rotation my rear end. Water melon soldiers, Isaan conscripts mainly who they feared would refuse to shoot their own people and turn on their own officers

[backtonormal]

It is very clear that Royalists are not drafted. They have the means and the contacts to be issued with exemption forms. In a matter of fact no rich Thai will ever be drafted, most of them are exempt anyhow as ladyboys ....

The overwhelming majority of people in Thailand would class themselves as Royalists, and still manage to be conscripted.

After that amazing piece of misinformation, your statements continue downhill at an ever accelerating pace. Congratulations.

Please define a royalist as against a non royalist

Edited November 15, 2012 by backtonormal

[backtonormal]

Is there any mileage in asking how this makes things better for Thailand?

A democratic government running rough-shod over democracy on the road to who-knows-where, and an obsession with 'reconciliation' meaning dragging up issues from the past which may not be supported by evidence.

Are we taking bets on a coup or civil war?

We will only have a civil war if we have another coup

[Noistar]

Is there any mileage in asking how this makes things better for Thailand?

A democratic government running rough-shod over democracy on the road to who-knows-where, and an obsession with 'reconciliation' meaning dragging up issues from the past which may not be supported by evidence.

Are we taking bets on a coup or civil war?

We will only have a civil war if we have another coup

You think that a government intent on polarizing the country will keep the population happy?

Unfortunately it's the Government's own actions and policies which are causing unrest, IMHO

[Buchholz]

Is there any mileage in asking how this makes things better for Thailand?

A democratic government running rough-shod over democracy on the road to who-knows-where, and an obsession with 'reconciliation' meaning dragging up issues from the past which may not be supported by evidence.

Are we taking bets on a coup or civil war?

We will only have a civil war if we have another coup

You think that a government intent on polarizing the country will keep the population happy?

Unfortunately it's the Government's own actions and policies which are causing unrest, IMHO

Exacerbated by issues like the government's red shirt faction seeking to "eradicate" the opposition lawmakers.

Civil war, without a coup, is quite plausible.

.

Edited November 15, 2012 by Buchholz

[Noistar]

It is very clear that Royalists are not drafted. They have the means and the contacts to be issued with exemption forms. In a matter of fact no rich Thai will ever be drafted, most of them are exempt anyhow as ladyboys ....

Aren't there rich Thais in the ruling party?

Why does reference to wealth infer anything to do with being Royalist, Democrat, Elite etc, etc.

i am led to believe that one of the wealthiest Thais is a coward who is scared of stepping foot in Thailand. I don't think he's a Democrat or part of the elite.

Just how much money does one person need?

[rixalex]

More importantly,some in the the PTP leadership sought police or military service or careers as a strategic career decision. They did this because they did not have the family wealth or conections that characterizes some of the Democrat leadership.

That you think the upper echelons of the Thai police and military is made up of people - some who now work as PTP politicians - who have, through hard graft, made their way up the career ladder from the bottom, shows a frankly embarrassing lack of understanding of those institutions.

Being successful to the degree we are talking, in either the Thai police or the Thai army, with a few very rare exceptions, requires family wealth or connections as much, if not a darn sight more, than other possible careers.

It's also ridiculous to suggest that PTP politicians are somehow distinguishable from Democrat politicians. Thai politicians from all the various parties, are all much the same creatures, which much the same backgrounds and much the same motivations. They enter politics and they join the party that they do, not because they are drawn by some sort of vision for the future, or because of some ideological belief, but because they seek power and influence.

[Buchholz]

It is very clear that Royalists are not drafted. They have the means and the contacts to be issued with exemption forms. In a matter of fact no rich Thai will ever be drafted, most of them are exempt anyhow as ladyboys ....

Aren't there rich Thais in the ruling party?

Well over half are quite rich...

Two-thirds of Thailand Cabinet are millionaires

http://www.guardian....et-millionaires

Why does reference to wealth infer anything to do with being Royalist, Democrat, Elite etc, etc.

Absolutely no connection. It's the same tired feigned class warfare line. In reality, there are rich royalists, rich non-royalists, rich Democrats, rich Pheu Thais, etc.

i am led to believe that one of the wealthiest Thais is a coward who is scared of stepping foot in Thailand. I don't think he's a Democrat or part of the elite.

you believe correctly

.

Edited November 16, 2012 by Buchholz