Pyongyang Declares ' State Of War' With South Korea - Agency

[SteeleJoe]

@Neversure:

Couple things:

"This is how we lose wars - worrying about such things. Remember Gulf War I when Iraq tried to invade Kuwait, and the result was a long highway littered with bombed out vehicles and people? Hardly any allied troops were lost, it was over fast. Remember the beginning of the Iraq invasion with the carpet bombing and the bombing of Hussein's palaces, the finding and killing of him?"

*Your huge oversimplification and inaccuracy in the first sentence are staggering. One could write a page in reply to that but obviously this isn't the place.

*Iraq didn't try to invade Kuwait, it DID invade Kuwait. They discovered - as we did in Iraq - that a successful invasion does not victory make. Indeed, the "Highway of Death" was comprised of vehicles RETREATING from Kuwait. And there were much more important consequences - militarily and politically - than that event. The result of that invasion and our subsequent reaction was the destruction of Iraq's military as a credible threat and a virtually total containment of Saddam.

*I don't think you know what "carpet bombing" is (many misuse it but it's a civilian misnomer anyway: strategic bombing is the correct term) but that's not what we did in Iraq. Tactical bombing compared to Strategic is quite different in results (militarily and - something you tend to overlook - politically)

"Remember the celebrating of the people in the square, and the pulling down of the statue?"

*That event meant ultimately NOTHING.

If you are going to keep comparing this potential conflict to other wars, it seems wrong to let your misunderstanding and/or misinterpretation of facts stand.

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[F430murci]

North Korea (the military) has everything to lose and just like the Burmese junta they live a grand life whilst the rest of the country struggle. Somehow, I don't think they have anything to gain, most NK's probably have no idea what is going on. I think it's another bluff game to get a pay off. As for those saying IF NK start something it will be game over, would do well to look at all the other 'game over' wars and how they are doing.

Exactly. What I alluded to before. Completely foolish for them to do anything as they have nothing to gain and everything to lose.

[F430murci]

Yet again more rubbish.

A military action is a military action with consequences.

What is rubbish is what NK has done. Defies logic and common sense and will be dealt with accordingly when the time is right.

The funny part is I hear nothing of this in US. No news on this or anything. Fat boy is a joke over here. The only people in danger are you guys in SE Asia except for US has sufficient power and technology to get this dude reigned in.

Truth is that your dysfunction or disconnect is contrary to the one thing that actually keeps you safe at night. The rational response would be one of gratitude not condemnation.

Edited March 31, 2013 by F430murci

[Credo]

The North has a large military force that it will unleash on the South and this is going to cause a great deal of difficulty. These are Koreans, they speak the language and unless there is a willingness to bomb the South as well, it is not going to be quite so easy to extricate them from the South.

I don't think any military action is going to be quite as easy as everyone thinks. It will require ground troops and there will be a very high civilian toll.

[chuckd]

"No battle plan survives contact with the enemy."

Colin Powell, 1991.

[SteeleJoe]

"No battle plan survives contact with the enemy."

Colin Powell, 1991.

Actually, that has been said by many people but it originates hundreds of years before Powell - Helmuth von Moltke, a Prussian.

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[briboy]

this is old now, time to move on to the comics again as nothing exciting will happen, the boy saved face in his eyes bye saying it is up to SK/US to start

[Fortunate1]

Kim Jong-Un just wants to sit at a negotiating table and be seen as an equal to Mr Obama. Strange way to go about it but he has little to negotiate with except his military might (not).

Mr Kim reminds me of a James Bond baddie. Surrounded by "Yes men" I expect nobody has ever questioned a word he has said since he was selected to succeed his father.

Just take Mr Kim to Disneyland and stick him on a ride and he will forget all about it.

[Scott]

Off-topic, baiting posts and replies have been deleted.

[simple1]

Even if solely an air attack you do not believe that China and US allies will take of responsibility for North Koreans internally displaced and refugees crossing the border into South Korea - wrong.

Wasn't my analysis, from the ex head of US Special Forces operations for AsiaPac and previous commander of the US 1st Special Forces Group. He estimated of the 600k troops North Korean stationed near the border around 150k would be able to penetrate South Korean defenses in the first 1/2 days. Went on to say counter attack effort would take around one week to neutralise, but one of the major issue will be resolving civilian internal displacement and refugees from North Korea (est 3m civilians). As already stated planning for US/S.Korean Special forces allegedly in place to take control of the launch facilities and other major military facilities.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/9296587/US-special-forces-parachuted-into-North-Korea.html

Rubbish. We could hit their front lines so hard they would be running home for momma. Again, you just spew more bs similar to that the NK whack job relies upon to act like a fool in hopes that US or anyone would be paralyzed or impotent to act due to refugees or concerns about China or nuclear fallout.

Clowns like you obviously prefer to have clowns like NK powers leveling threats against countries trying to live in a civilized manner rather than ridding the world of such problems.

The real issue is simply that the US views this fool as a joke, but as soon he he poses any real threat he is done. End of story.

The alleged bullshit is from an ex US Special Forces brigadier general, detail at:

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Military/2013/0329/North-Korea-What-happens-if-Kim-Jong-un-acts-on-his-threats

The net has stories of alien abduction and big foot humped my dog on the net also. I guess you believe those as well since they are on the Internet.

You are an American, yet you lump together a well respected media outlet, Christian Science Monitor, an ex commander of the US 1st Special Forces Group and the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington under the definition of some weirdo internet contributors? You either have no idea what you're talking about or just posting flame content

[Steely Dan]

Frankly, your posts are of someone who does not seem to have a faintest clue

US and UN has had years to do something about NK but could not.

Nothing has changed this time round. Yes military strike is the only option, but rest assured it is not easy.

One fact alone that you actually believe that US can neutralize 1.2 million men army, shows your total lack of common sense on the matter.

The fact that you do not even grasp the proximity of South Korea and consequences of aerial bombardment is a clear indication that you either need to educate yourself or stop posting rubbish.

Yes NK may well have outdated military and everything else, however they still posses nukes, still have million men army, still have the artillery and still led by delusional regime.

Yep, your message is no different than terrorists and whack jobs that think they cando and act as they wish because the world is impotent to deal with them do to politics and perceived back lashes.

News for you sonny, those days are passing us by. US has shown it is not afraid to do what it has to do to neutralize threats. Up until now, NK has been little more than a joke and not a legitimate threat. Once they cross that line, they will be dealt with swiftly and efficiently.

NK does not have any complicating factors such as oil or threats to Israel. Not much to keep us from leveling them is becomes necessary.

The proximity of Seoul is one complicating factor, but the main one is western liberals who have tied western armies up with restrictive rules of engagement in just about every war from Vietnam onward.

[F430murci]

You are an American, yet you lump together a well respected media outlet, Christian Science Monitor, an ex commander of the US 1st Special Forces Group and the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington under the definition of some weirdo internet contributors? You either have no idea what you're talking about or just posting flame content

You could interview 5 different former commanders and get five different best and worst case scenarios. You would prefer to have a US that is impotent to deal with the situation so you gravitate toward and cite articles such as this. Makes little difference.

The US does not take this whack job seriously and this entire situation gets minimal media attention over here. If he was a serious threat, he would be dealt with swiftly and decessively with little concern about what either you or I chose to believe.

Edited March 31, 2013 by F430murci

[SteeleJoe]

... but the main one is western liberals who have tied western armies up with restrictive rules of engagement in just about every war from Vietnam onward.

Oft repeated canard.

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[F430murci]

Frankly, your posts are of someone who does not seem to have a faintest clue

US and UN has had years to do something about NK but could not.

Nothing has changed this time round. Yes military strike is the only option, but rest assured it is not easy.

One fact alone that you actually believe that US can neutralize 1.2 million men army, shows your total lack of common sense on the matter.

The fact that you do not even grasp the proximity of South Korea and consequences of aerial bombardment is a clear indication that you either need to educate yourself or stop posting rubbish.

Yes NK may well have outdated military and everything else, however they still posses nukes, still have million men army, still have the artillery and still led by delusional regime.

Yep, your message is no different than terrorists and whack jobs that think they cando and act as they wish because the world is impotent to deal with them do to politics and perceived back lashes.

News for you sonny, those days are passing us by. US has shown it is not afraid to do what it has to do to neutralize threats. Up until now, NK has been little more than a joke and not a legitimate threat. Once they cross that line, they will be dealt with swiftly and efficiently.

NK does not have any complicating factors such as oil or threats to Israel. Not much to keep us from leveling them is becomes necessary.

The proximity of Seoul is one complicating factor, but the main one is western liberals who have tied western armies up with restrictive rules of engagement in just about every war from Vietnam onward.

The proximity of Seoul and Japan and the amount of conventional artillery especially in Seoul's direction. Chemical weapons toward Seoul would be a concern. I would think anything nuclear would be lobbed at US base locations in Japan, Phillipines or perhaps even Thailand. Who knows what a desperate idiot with an inferiority complex that is about to die would do.

[chuckd]

Frankly, your posts are of someone who does not seem to have a faintest clue

US and UN has had years to do something about NK but could not.

Nothing has changed this time round. Yes military strike is the only option, but rest assured it is not easy.

One fact alone that you actually believe that US can neutralize 1.2 million men army, shows your total lack of common sense on the matter.

The fact that you do not even grasp the proximity of South Korea and consequences of aerial bombardment is a clear indication that you either need to educate yourself or stop posting rubbish.

Yes NK may well have outdated military and everything else, however they still posses nukes, still have million men army, still have the artillery and still led by delusional regime.

Yep, your message is no different than terrorists and whack jobs that think they cando and act as they wish because the world is impotent to deal with them do to politics and perceived back lashes.

News for you sonny, those days are passing us by. US has shown it is not afraid to do what it has to do to neutralize threats. Up until now, NK has been little more than a joke and not a legitimate threat. Once they cross that line, they will be dealt with swiftly and efficiently.

NK does not have any complicating factors such as oil or threats to Israel. Not much to keep us from leveling them is becomes necessary.

The proximity of Seoul is one complicating factor, but the main one is western liberals who have tied western armies up with restrictive rules of engagement in just about every war from Vietnam onward.

The proximity of Seoul and Japan and the amount of conventional artillery especially in Seoul's direction. Chemical weapons toward Seoul would be a concern. I would think anything nuclear would be lobbed at US base locations in Japan, Phillipines or perhaps even Thailand. Who knows what a desperate idiot with an inferiority complex that is about to die would do.

What military base in Thailand are you referring to?

[F430murci]

What military base in Thailand are you referring to?

"or perhaps even Thailand" was intended to be separate from clause about millitary base . . . Awkward sentence.

[dressedingreen]

Really ... all this rhetoric is aimed at the home audience in the hope it will stop their new Minnie Mouse from looking weak. Their news has been flooded with 'set up' pix of Mr Big at various military stations, apparently issuing orders to the NK military. The regime wants a permanent solution to the stand off. But they don't want to be seen to ask for it. So they're hoping the S Korean gov't will make the first move so they can be dragged, kicking and screaming, to a bribed end of the old conflict between the two halves of the peninsula. A little face saving. A lot of aid, and the little guy can claim some kind of victory to the starving masses of his own country. This is not about war. This is about the best deal they can get and a peaceful solution. The big hats are hurting since the new sanctions tightened the noose. They want out. A million strong army equipped with pop guns and inadequate rations isn't a threat to S Korea. Millions of refugees is. Both Park and the new Chinese suits know this. It's a facade! Watch this space. A deal will ensue and Korea will unify. Long, drawn out process costing the south a heap of Won. But the result will be a very strong N E Asian economy which will balance that of the Chinese.

Next!

DIG

________________________________________________________________________Technical problem here. Above is the post of dressedingreen. My post is as follows:

The grave problem for S Korea is that massive N Korean rocket artillery are only 50 miles from Seoul. I see as I write this that Chuckd has mentioned the fact in the post he just made. U.S. boomer subs presently off the Asia coast, each of which carry 24 missiles of multiple warheads, would smoke the North in two hours or less. (One of the three boomers constantly in the western Pacific is always off the Korean peninsula, and itself would be more than enough to do the job.) However, in those two hours Pyongyang's artillery would reduce Seoul to a wasteland. In addition to Seoul being the South's capital, it has a quarter of the country's population. So any kind of military action on the peninsula would occur at a great price, which comes as no surprise any of us.

I largely share the views you state in your post, but your statement is too casual for me. Since the unification of Germany Seoul has sent dozens of teams there to study broadly, at great length and in great detail the process, its effects, the cost, the time involved in what can be defined as complete integration of the former two Germanys. Each team has returned to Seoul pale and ashen faced. At the time of unification, West Germany had been the third largest economy of the world, yet reunification was carried on at great financial cost past the turn of the millennium. While the present chancellor is from the old East, Germany has yet to regain its social fabric while cultural differences continue to impede the Germans in the former East. These are costs Seoul and most S Koreans fear.

During two years in S Korea the Koreans kept telling me unification was "ten years" away. Koreans said that when I was there in 1996-98 and a Korean in an email to me January this year said the same thing - "ten years." The reality is the S Koreans still don't want to disturb or disrupt their high standard of living and high quality of life to bring their fellow Koreans in the North up to speed. S Koreans are enjoying being a developed economy which quickly is becoming an advanced one. S Korea broke through the middle income trap very successfully. They don't want to be inconvenienced - put out, really - by taking on the task before them.

Kim and his gang are now getting the kind of embargoes and sanctions that Prez Obama managed to impose on the ayatollahs et al in Iran. Iran has recently come to the table. I share your view dressedingreen that Kim will never come to the table. The Gang in Pyongyang want their caviar and to continue to move weapons for money, deal in drugs, launder money, have access the international shadow banking system and so on. Now Even the PRChina voted with Obama at the UN to block Pongyang in these illicit pursuits. The big hats in Pyongyang shutter to think of how thin their waistlines are going to get, which is not very different from the impact of the new sanctions in Tehran. .

It's clear as far as Washington and Seoul are concerned - Beijing too - that the stuck pig Pongyang can squeal and make all the racket it wants, but it's gonna have to face reality and give up its nukes.

And I need to commend Prez Obama for devising and implementing sanctions that go directly to the leaders of these regimes. Obama knows the criticism of sanctions is that they hurt the population themselves, the leaders less, as serious research over decades has proven to be true. Obama instead has begun to go after the bank accounts as well as the waistlines of the regimes themselves.

The West German people were not too keen on paying the price of reunification either. Many of them railed against the cost (1.6 trillion Euros) and the effects on their lifestyles. But it went ahead anyway. Why? Because over a generation or two it makes economic, political and global sense. The same reasons will drive the 2 Koreas to reunite. What the middle classes want will be secondary to what the Korean elites have in mind for the future. What we need to understand is that people are expendable and cities are easily rebuilt. The plans for this planet are not those published in political manifestos or alluded to in jingoistic speeches or interviews. They are unwritten, unspoken yet foreseeable with analytical eyes. As far as N E Asia is concerned the NK regime is merely a nuisance. An itch to be scratched when the time is right. Pyongyang will not be bombed but quietly subdued. Like East Germany, N Korea will not be an equal partner in a unified Korean peninsula. It will simply be annexed. People will be moved around according to the dictats of the S Korean military industrial complex. And the N Korean army will not be allowed to run amok in Seoul. It will be subdued by those who currently hold high rank in that organization. They are bought and paid for. There will be no resistance of any worth. Those who don't toe the line will be removed, and quietly disappear. Little Kim will become a distant memory.

For China, NK has become a liability. It's use as a buffer and uncontrollable child bully has run its course. China is in the process of ditching it, publicly. Another reason for the recent tantrums.

Many have underestimated Obama. I never did. He was destined to win his 2 elections. His agenda was set well before he took office. Regardless of his 'home performance' which many would agree has been somewhat lackluster, he has achieved many of his foreign aims. And that was always his main purpose. Corporations run America. No need for a large political footprint other than just enough to keep the sheeple quiet.

The Middle east has been on the back burner for a while. Like NK, it's now back on the main agenda. Watch as Iran stutters and succumbs over the next few years.

The ordinary people of (both) Koreas will be reorganized, 'reeducated', repositioned and redirected in the coming generation, as the global corporate network comes together.

The only surprise will be if someone of substance notices.

Casually

DIG

[Mosha]

The North has a large military force that it will unleash on the South and this is going to cause a great deal of difficulty. These are Koreans, they speak the language and unless there is a willingness to bomb the South as well, it is not going to be quite so easy to extricate them from the South.

I don't think any military action is going to be quite as easy as everyone thinks. It will require ground troops and there will be a very high civilian toll.

They speak Korean yes, but the South Koreans know them by the way they speak Korean. Accent and or dialect.

[SteeleJoe]

The North has a large military force that it will unleash on the South and this is going to cause a great deal of difficulty. These are Koreans, they speak the language and unless there is a willingness to bomb the South as well, it is not going to be quite so easy to extricate them from the South.

I don't think any military action is going to be quite as easy as everyone thinks. It will require ground troops and there will be a very high civilian toll.

You do realize that the North invaded the South before - and were driven out? Don't think the language is really the problem.

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[oldsailor35]

North and South have been at war since the 1950's the last war never stopped, it was simply an armastice, the status of war has remained in effect for decades.

60 years in fact and over that time N Korea has constantly threatened S Korea.............so whats different ?

[Credo]

The North has a large military force that it will unleash on the South and this is going to cause a great deal of difficulty. These are Koreans, they speak the language and unless there is a willingness to bomb the South as well, it is not going to be quite so easy to extricate them from the South.

I don't think any military action is going to be quite as easy as everyone thinks. It will require ground troops and there will be a very high civilian toll.

You do realize that the North invaded the South before - and were driven out? Don't think the language is really the problem.

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And the South will prevail again, but there will be huge casualties and the language isn't an issue, but the North Koreans are not going to be unable to read the signs or speak to people. If Northerners, be they military or civilian, are not in uniform, they are going to be hard to identify by any military personnel, with the exception of the South Koreans, perhaps.

[SteeleJoe]

And the South will prevail again, but there will be huge casualties and the language isn't an issue, but the North Koreans are not going to be unable to read the signs or speak to people. If Northerners, be they military or civilian, are not in uniform, they are going to be hard to identify by any military personnel, with the exception of the South Koreans, perhaps.

Again? Well, the first time it wasn't precisely "the South" that prevailed - any more than it was "the North" that pushed the US/UN back to the starting line...

An inability to read signs or speak to people...no one was counting on that as a disadvantage ( and it's not typically a major factor in modern warfare). People out of uniform can be hard to identify as enemy combatants? Well, of course. That 's always true (Germans vs Allies or S Vietnamese vs N Vietnamese etc)...

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[oldsailor35]

Just for drill, let's be clear on how an ICBM works. I'm sure most know. It is a space vehicle. It is launched into space and goes into orbit. It can stay there due to lack of atmospheric drag, and its speed overcomes gravity. It can travel as far and as long as its user wants it to, using no fuel while in orbit. Then at the appointed moment, it fires retro rockets and begins a descent to its target. The good ones are very accurate.

Therefore they can hit anywhere in the world. They aren't limited for range.

N. Korea doesn't seem to have this full capability yet, but they do seem to be able to get a rocket into space. They still seem to have limited range. The Western countries can hit anywhere in the world, and the sub launched versions come from deep under water where the sub is never seen and can't be defended against. The sub is nuclear powered, generates its own fresh water from sea water, and its own oxygen from sea water. It can stay down for months.

Some ICBM's have the ability to separate, having multiple nukes on the rocket, and hit several targets with precision. The ones in the subs can do this.

The latest Brit sub., claimed to be undectable, able to cruise for 25 years and can hit a target with cuise missiles 1200 miles away. Can sit on the bottom of the English Channel and hear a ship leaving New York

Cop that KIM.

[Scott]

I certainly hope that the Defense Department is reading Thaivisa. Seems all the experts are here.

Please stay on topic and keep it civil.

[Ricardo]

where is China when you need it ?

Looking intently in the opposite direction, pretending not to see anything, with its fingers crossed and whistling in the wind ?

[I Like Thai]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_of_Korea

The division of Korea into North Korea and South Korea stems from the 1945 Allied victory in World War II, ending the Empire of Japan's 35-year colonial rule of Korea. The United States and the Soviet Union agreed to temporarily occupy the country as a trusteeship with the zone of control demarcated along the 38th parallel. The purpose of this trusteeship was to establish a Korean provisional government which would become "free and independent in due course."^[1]

^{And they all lived happily ever after}

[technologybytes]

Its very interesting to see than amongst some very intelligent posts here, there are an awful lot of people who are so brainwashed by the western media that they cannot separate likely truth from obvious propaganda.

Personally I know nothing of North Korea, because I have never been there and I have never spoken in detail to anyone who has.

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that the USA and others see North Korea as a threat because they refuse to "join the club" and play ball with the USA, who wants to rule the world and gets in a sulk when it cannot. That's just my opinion, and I'm honest enough to admit that I don't know enough to decide for sure one way or another.

But, for sure, I'm not prepared to accept the warped version of the truth that is spouted by the "so called" news channels, and for sure I won't accept anything that the US government says, because I know from experience that we cannot trust those sources.

[Credo]

North Korea could live in splendid isolation if it would simply stop detonating nuclear devices and sending rockets over other country's air space.

Take a look at Bhutan--it stays reasonably isolated with little trouble and I don't see anyone pressuring them to 'join the club.'

[SteeleJoe]

Its very interesting to see than amongst some very intelligent posts here, there are an awful lot of people who are so brainwashed by the western media that they cannot separate likely truth from obvious propaganda.

Personally I know nothing of North Korea, because I have never been there and I have never spoken in detail to anyone who has.

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that the USA and others see North Korea as a threat because they refuse to "join the club" and play ball with the USA, who wants to rule the world and gets in a sulk when it cannot. That's just my opinion, and I'm honest enough to admit that I don't know enough to decide for sure one way or another.

But, for sure, I'm not prepared to accept the warped version of the truth that is spouted by the "so called" news channels, and for sure I won't accept anything that the US government says, because I know from experience that we cannot trust those sources.

So you have an "opinion" that is based on (admittedly) no actual knowledge but rejection of the western media and anything the US government says is enough for you - no need to actually do any research.

There's a fair bit of information out there by no means all of from the sources you reject out of hand (despite having no ability to accurately assess their veracity). This was virtually the first thing I found:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia-pacific/2013/03/2013322113345899921.html

'The United Nations' top human rights body has unanimously approved a formal probe into North Korea for possible crimes against humanity...

The vote follows the recommendations of UN special rapporteur Marzuki Darusman, who told the Geneva-based council in a report last month that the secretive Asian nation displays nine patterns of human rights violations.

Darusman said the "grave, widespread and systematic violations of human rights" include having prison camps, the enforced disappearances of citizens and using food to control people.

In 22 previous reports over the past nine years and 16 resolutions adopted by the UN General Assembly, the world body of 193 nations has again and again condemned North Korea's human rights record.

The UN's top rights official, Navi Pillay, also has urged such an investigation - the Commission of Inquiry authorised by the United Nations, but performed by independent experts.

She has said the UN has amassed evidence indicating that up to 200,000 people are being held in North Korean political prison camps rife with torture, rape and slave labor, and that some of the abuses may amount to crimes against humanity...

Julie de Rivero of Human Rights Watch in Geneva said the "long awaited inquiry will help expose decades of abuse by the North Korean government"...'

And here's what Amnesty International has to say:

http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/north-korea/report-2012

And then there's this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_International_Coalition_to_Stop_Crimes_Against_Humanity_in_North_Korea_(ICNK)

Oh, and there's an interesting article in alJazeera about the satellite photos AI commissioned and the vast concentration camps for prisoners.

Or is human rights not the point? Would you prefer to discuss acts of aggression by NK as reported by other than western media or the US government?

.

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Edited March 31, 2013 by SteeleJoe
Edited for fair use

[SteeleJoe]

Noam Chomsky - hardly a mouthpiece for the US government or western media ( quite the contrary):

"North Korea is one of the most horrible countries in the world, nothing good to say about it."

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