Liverpool F.c.

[MSingh]

rafa's made plenty of mistakes this season, goes with the job. but no manager in the world could do the liverpool job with one and sometimes two hands tied behind his back. in the summer, having come second last term, we needed to invest in the squad and try to kick on and really catch united. he wasn't allowed the money that he was promised to improve the squad, so we end up with voronin, babel, degen and dossena having to play, players he wanted rid of. he's been hamstrung by the owners. and that doesn't make him a bad manager, as his previous achievements with liverpool and valencia testify.

1 ) I'll never get my head around this " he was promised money " bit.. He got money Chaps & spent it on a Right Back, 18m if i'm not mistaken & Aquilani $$ too. We're in a Global Recession, he shouldn't ( & you are being very naive in wanting it to a degree too ) " expect " unlimited funds ( or 30m plus for arguments sake ) in this Climate & this argument, in my opinion, is people taking Football & looking at it as a Computer Game instead of real life & the Business that is so sadly is these days.

He/Liverpool have no divine right to expect Transfer Funds after Transfer Funds after Transfer Funds in this climate especially when he has argubly bought poorly over the past few Seasons. Ok, my Nan given that sort of money would buy Torres, that's easy, it's the Squad/back up & other First Team Players that simply have not been good enough Signings for you & you can argue about it until you're blue in the face but it's true & the proof is in the Pudding.

2 ) So you end up with Players that he signed himself ??

3 ) What does make him a bad Manager then Steve ?? I really can't see the Wood through the tree's in this one as much as i try to as a lot of the " for " arguments for Rafa generally contradict themselves, all of the time ??

This ain't a dig by the way, just an observation & i REALLY can't understand a lot of it & a lot of the " for " arguements to be honest..

[Devil]

rafa's made plenty of mistakes this season, goes with the job. but no manager in the world could do the liverpool job with one and sometimes two hands tied behind his back. in the summer, having come second last term, we needed to invest in the squad and try to kick on and really catch united. he wasn't allowed the money that he was promised to improve the squad, so we end up with voronin, babel, degen and dossena having to play, players he wanted rid of. he's been hamstrung by the owners. and that doesn't make him a bad manager, as his previous achievements with liverpool and valencia testify.

1 ) I'll never get my head around this " he was promised money " bit.. He got money Chaps & spent it on a Right Back, 18m if i'm not mistaken & Aquilani $$ too. We're in a Global Recession, he shouldn't ( & you are being very naive in wanting it to a degree too ) " expect " unlimited funds ( or 30m plus for arguments sake ) in this Climate & this argument, in my opinion, is people taking Football & looking at it as a Computer Game instead of real life & the Business that is so sadly is these days.

He/Liverpool have no divine right to expect Transfer Funds after Transfer Funds after Transfer Funds in this climate especially when he has argubly bought poorly over the past few Seasons. Ok, my Nan given that sort of money would buy Torres, that's easy, it's the Squad/back up & other First Team Players that simply have not been good enough Signings for you & you can argue about it until you're blue in the face but it's true & the proof is in the Pudding.

2 ) So you end up with Players that he signed himself ??

3 ) What does make him a bad Manager then Steve ?? I really can't see the Wood through the tree's in this one as much as i try to as a lot of the " for " arguments for Rafa generally contradict themselves, all of the time ??

This ain't a dig by the way, just an observation & i REALLY can't understand a lot of it & a lot of the " for " arguements to be honest..

My take on the monies spent and not recived for those two you mentioned.

Glen Johnson - the transfer is cost was approx £17m, although much of that was written off because of money still owed by Pompey for the Peter Crouch deal. This was Rafa's first choice pick at last!

Aqualani - Money was part of the £31m fee we received for the sale of Alonso and the £3.5m for Arebeloa, So what happened to £20+m and any other you would expect from the owners for a top four club each summer. Should of been £20-35+m in my reckoning.

[MSingh]

rafa's made plenty of mistakes this season, goes with the job. but no manager in the world could do the liverpool job with one and sometimes two hands tied behind his back. in the summer, having come second last term, we needed to invest in the squad and try to kick on and really catch united. he wasn't allowed the money that he was promised to improve the squad, so we end up with voronin, babel, degen and dossena having to play, players he wanted rid of. he's been hamstrung by the owners. and that doesn't make him a bad manager, as his previous achievements with liverpool and valencia testify.

1 ) I'll never get my head around this " he was promised money " bit.. He got money Chaps & spent it on a Right Back, 18m if i'm not mistaken & Aquilani $$ too. We're in a Global Recession, he shouldn't ( & you are being very naive in wanting it to a degree too ) " expect " unlimited funds ( or 30m plus for arguments sake ) in this Climate & this argument, in my opinion, is people taking Football & looking at it as a Computer Game instead of real life & the Business that is so sadly is these days.

He/Liverpool have no divine right to expect Transfer Funds after Transfer Funds after Transfer Funds in this climate especially when he has argubly bought poorly over the past few Seasons. Ok, my Nan given that sort of money would buy Torres, that's easy, it's the Squad/back up & other First Team Players that simply have not been good enough Signings for you & you can argue about it until you're blue in the face but it's true & the proof is in the Pudding.

2 ) So you end up with Players that he signed himself ??

3 ) What does make him a bad Manager then Steve ?? I really can't see the Wood through the tree's in this one as much as i try to as a lot of the " for " arguments for Rafa generally contradict themselves, all of the time ??

This ain't a dig by the way, just an observation & i REALLY can't understand a lot of it & a lot of the " for " arguements to be honest..

My take on the monies spent and not recived for those two you mentioned.

Glen Johnson - the transfer is cost was approx £17m, although much of that was written off because of money still owed by Pompey for the Peter Crouch deal. This was Rafa's first choice pick at last!

Aqualani - Money was part of the £31m fee we received for the sale of Alonso and the £3.5m for Arebeloa, So what happened to £20+m and any other you would expect from the owners for a top four club each summer. Should of been £20-35+m in my reckoning.

Yeah but Dev, if you're right, this is my points entirely..

You're not/No one is entitled to this kind of $$ in the current Financial Climate..

Football Clubs ( City & Chelsea aside ) are not Toys & none are entitled to their Owners, whom 10 times out of 10 are incredibly astute Business Men, to just keep bankrolling them time after time especially, as i said in a Post that was ignored on here a couple of weeks back, Rafa's Transfer dealings over the past couple of Years & absolute failiure to build a Squad, not a Team, that can challenge the best in Europe over the past couple of Years..

You can argue that you come second last Year & granted, you did, but it was only because of the strength of your first 11 ( who i regulary used to say was the best first 11 in the League please note ), not your Squad...

The Game is about Squad's these days, you both know that aswell as i do & THAT is the reason you are where you are this Year, behind B'ham on Xmas day & out of the CL....

The proof's in the pudding Chaps & there for all to see no matter how much you want to/seem to defend your Manager & the naivity in this attitude about Transfer Funds & what appears to be the way of thinking that you should have a bottomless pit of the Owners money given how the modern Game actually is these days & the current Financial Climate, is 100% baffling to me..

[Jimjim]

The point, MSingh, is that Liverpool had a net spend of just about zero this summer. Money from sales went to money for buys, and no more money was given.

Of course no manager has a right to money, but if the club wants to go forward, money needs to be spent on transfers. Any squad needs to improve every summer by plugging in players in weaker positions; I don't see how that needs explaining. Anyway, the point is the manager was said to be promised 20 million for transfers in the summer and spent a net total of zero, so that's about 20 million short isn't it? Purslow explained it by saying the money went into new contracts for players but I think he was just keeping the peace. So, let's just forget about your philosophies of nobody has a right to money, bla bla bla (will all due respect), aye mate? Fact is the owners have done horribly managing the budget and reneged on all their promises, and new, more honest ownership is needed.

Anyway, lads, is it any wonder that Voronin has already checked out of Liverpool and will be heading for the door rather soon? This picture with his wife was taken in Miami just last week! Now, excepting numbskull Jo for Everton, I don't think any other players on Merseyside took flights across the Atlantic for a little Christmas/New Year vacation as there's no break now and it's a busy time...Seems clear Voronin was getting in some vacation time as he obviously was not going to be even picked for the bench. I'm clueless as to how he can be spending time in Miami, though, isn't he supposed to be training?

[alfieconn]

The point, MSingh, is that Liverpool had a net spend of just about zero this summer. Money from sales went to money for buys, and no more money was given.

Of course no manager has a right to money, but if the club wants to go forward, money needs to be spent on transfers. Any squad needs to improve every summer by plugging in players in weaker positions; I don't see how that needs explaining. Anyway, the point is the manager was said to be promised 20 million for transfers in the summer and spent a net total of zero, so that's about 20 million short isn't it? Purslow explained it by saying the money went into new contracts for players but I think he was just keeping the peace. So, let's just forget about your philosophies of nobody has a right to money, bla bla bla (will all due respect), aye mate? Fact is the owners have done horribly managing the budget and reneged on all their promises, and new, more honest ownership is needed.

Anyway, lads, is it any wonder that Voronin has already checked out of Liverpool and will be heading for the door rather soon? This picture with his wife was taken in Miami just last week! Now, excepting numbskull Jo for Everton, I don't think any other players on Merseyside took flights across the Atlantic for a little Christmas/New Year vacation as there's no break now and it's a busy time...Seems clear Voronin was getting in some vacation time as he obviously was not going to be even picked for the bench. I'm clueless as to how he can be spending time in Miami, though, isn't he supposed to be training?

Before reading the post i was wondering why you put a picture of yourself on here Jim

Edited January 6, 2010 by alfieconn

[alfieconn]

rafa's made plenty of mistakes this season, goes with the job. but no manager in the world could do the liverpool job with one and sometimes two hands tied behind his back. in the summer, having come second last term, we needed to invest in the squad and try to kick on and really catch united. he wasn't allowed the money that he was promised to improve the squad, so we end up with voronin, babel, degen and dossena having to play, players he wanted rid of. he's been hamstrung by the owners. and that doesn't make him a bad manager, as his previous achievements with liverpool and valencia testify.

"So we end up' as though they were bargain basements,did rafa not buy these players, perhaps the board didn't allow him any funds because they didn't want him to make the same mistakes he made with this four.

[StevieH]

Yeah but Dev, if you're right, this is my points entirely..

You're not/No one is entitled to this kind of $$ in the current Financial Climate..

Football Clubs ( City & Chelsea aside ) are not Toys & none are entitled to their Owners, whom 10 times out of 10 are incredibly astute Business Men, to just keep bankrolling them time after time especially, as i said in a Post that was ignored on here a couple of weeks back, Rafa's Transfer dealings over the past couple of Years & absolute failiure to build a Squad, not a Team, that can challenge the best in Europe over the past couple of Years..

You can argue that you come second last Year & granted, you did, but it was only because of the strength of your first 11 ( who i regulary used to say was the best first 11 in the League please note ), not your Squad...

The Game is about Squad's these days, you both know that aswell as i do & THAT is the reason you are where you are this Year, behind B'ham on Xmas day & out of the CL....

The proof's in the pudding Chaps & there for all to see no matter how much you want to/seem to defend your Manager & the naivity in this attitude about Transfer Funds & what appears to be the way of thinking that you should have a bottomless pit of the Owners money given how the modern Game actually is these days & the current Financial Climate, is 100% baffling to me..

you're still missing the point m. he was promised the money from the sale of robbie keane to re-invest in the squad, he didn't get it. he was promised the money raised from selling alonso, leto, arbeloa this summer, plus 20m budgeted for, he didn't get it. the manager and the players and the supporters have been continuously lied to by the owners who are using the money that the club has raised from sales and merchandising and everything else to pay off crippling interest payments they took on when buying a club they could not afford to buy.

nobody is asking for a 'bottomless pit' of money, and we sure as hel_l know that we're never going to get one - we just want a fair crack of the whip and for the manager to stop being lied to and undermined by the owners. are you honestly saying that you think we should be challenging chelsea and united consistently when our manager has been able to spend only 16m net each summer over the time he's been here? we are not on the same financial plane as chelsea and united and to finish above chelsea and as close to united as we did last season was an amazing achievement.

many people, liverpool fans in particular but also the media, have had unrealistic expectations of what liverpool 'should' be achieving under benitez. he has never had massive money to throw about, has always had to wheel and deal and sell to buy, and yet he's returned us to being a feared and respected name in europe and to our best league campaign in years last season.

you can bang on about 'squad depth' all you like and i'll agree with you, but just don't ignore the fact that we simply do not have the money to have as large a squad as chelsea and united so why should we be expected to compete with them and challenge for the title every season? nobody expects villareal to win la liga every term. . .

[StevieH]

Anyway, lads, is it any wonder that Voronin has already checked out of Liverpool and will be heading for the door rather soon? This picture with his wife was taken in Miami just last week! Now, excepting numbskull Jo for Everton, I don't think any other players on Merseyside took flights across the Atlantic for a little Christmas/New Year vacation as there's no break now and it's a busy time...Seems clear Voronin was getting in some vacation time as he obviously was not going to be even picked for the bench. I'm clueless as to how he can be spending time in Miami, though, isn't he supposed to be training?

rafa told him to piss off about three weeks ago because he was being a lazy and contrary cun_t in training. so he was told to go and not come back to melwood. i prefer this photo of him and his chavtastic wife:

oh and good news is that it looks like we've got maxi rodriguez from atleti for a loan deal. also good news is that voronin and dossena look like they're going, for 2m and 4.4m respectively. good chance of babel being sold for about 9m too. so that's 15m we raise in this window from sales, none of it we're allowed to re-invest in player signings. you reading this msingh?

[bkkjames]

So where do you think Maxi will line up in your squad Stevie?

[StevieH]

So where do you think Maxi will line up in your squad Stevie?

he'll play right hand side james and allow us to give kuyt a much-needed rest. kuyt's been crap for a couple of months now but we haven't the squad to allow us to give him time on the bench. if maxi can reproduce his form of a couple of years ago he's a top class player.

[StevieH]

and this is precisely where we are at.

Liverpool restrict Rafael Benítez to loan signings in transfer window

• Benítez will not be able to reinvest income from sales

• Maxi Rodríguez plus one other likely to be sole additions

Andy Hunter

guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 6 January 2010

Rafael Benítez will have to rely on the £1.5m capture of Maxi Rodríguez and possibly one loan signing to revitalise Liverpool's squad during this transfer window even if the club succeed in raising more than £16m through player sales.

The Liverpool manager had expected to operate this month under the same financial constraints that existed throughout 2009 at Anfield: namely, spending no more than he can bring in from sales. Even that model now seems optimistic, however, with Benítez likely to be restricted to signing Rodríguez on an 18-month contract from Atlético Madrid plus one loan deal as he attempts to fulfil his guarantee of qualifying for the Champions League for a sixth successive season.

Liverpool are making good progress in their efforts to offload much of the dead wood in Benítez's squad by the end of January, and all for permanent transfer fees. Andriy Voronin and Andrea Dossena are close to joining Dynamo Moscow and Napoli respectively, Philipp Degen is the subject of interest from several sides in the Bundesliga, while the Anfield club have also rejected a bid in excess of £8m from Birmingham City for their unwanted Holland forward, Ryan Babel. Yet Benítez's hopes of strengthening his attack with a firm offer for the Aston Villa and former Liverpool striker Emile Heskey, for example, are expected to be dashed, as such a deal would be beyond his resources.

Liverpool insiders claim the constraints have not been imposed on Benítez by the club's owners, Tom Hicks and George Gillett. Executives believe players bought in the January transfer window are habitually overpriced and the club would rather save the income from sales to build a war chest for the summer. But there will be immense disappointment at the latest financial balancing act for a manager who last month confirmed the need to reduce the Americans' debt on Liverpool had taken precedence over investing in a squad that finished runners-up in the Premier League last season.

Benítez may therefore be tempted to retain players on the periphery of his plans, and he announced at the weekend that Babel would not be leaving Anfield this month. "At this moment we are not trying to sell him," said the Liverpool manager, following the FA Cup draw at Reading. Liverpool have since received and rejected an offer from Birmingham that would allow them to recoup much of the £11.5m paid to Ajax for Babel in 2007, although the club's stance may be influenced by a desire to encourage an auction for the disillusioned 23-year-old.

Besiktas, Galatasaray and Juventus have all been linked with Babel, and several Spanish clubs are also interested. Liverpool would prefer to sell Babel to a European club than risk him fulfilling his promise at a domestic rival, but Birmingham may withdraw their interest and pursue alternative targets should an auction develop.

While there is uncertainty over where Babel will be employed next month, Liverpool's hopes of finally getting rid of Voronin and Dossena for good are close to being realised. Benítez tried to sell the former, a free transfer from Bayer Leverkusen in 2007, and Dossena, a £7m arrival from Udinese in 2008, last summer only to be thwarted on both fronts. CSKA and Dynamo Moscow have made offers for Voronin of between £1.5m and £2m, with the latter club the favourites to clinch the deal after holding talks with the player yesterday. Napoli are close to taking Dossena back to Italy for a fee of £4.4m. Degen is also available this month providing a fee can be agreed with Liverpool.

The Anfield club are poised to sign the Argentina international Rodríguez, despite interest in the right-sided midfielder from Boca Juniors, after improving their offer from an initial loan arrangement to a permanent 18-month transfer. Once the fee and wages for Rodríguez have been accounted for, however, Benítez could be limited to only one other loan deal.

[MSingh]

The point, MSingh, is that Liverpool had a net spend of just about zero this summer. Money from sales went to money for buys, and no more money was given.

Of course no manager has a right to money, but if the club wants to go forward, money needs to be spent on transfers. Any squad needs to improve every summer by plugging in players in weaker positions; I don't see how that needs explaining. Anyway, the point is the manager was said to be promised 20 million for transfers in the summer and spent a net total of zero, so that's about 20 million short isn't it? Purslow explained it by saying the money went into new contracts for players but I think he was just keeping the peace. So, let's just forget about your philosophies of nobody has a right to money, bla bla bla (will all due respect), aye mate? Fact is the owners have done horribly managing the budget and reneged on all their promises, and new, more honest ownership is needed.

Anyway, lads, is it any wonder that Voronin has already checked out of Liverpool and will be heading for the door rather soon? This picture with his wife was taken in Miami just last week! Now, excepting numbskull Jo for Everton, I don't think any other players on Merseyside took flights across the Atlantic for a little Christmas/New Year vacation as there's no break now and it's a busy time...Seems clear Voronin was getting in some vacation time as he obviously was not going to be even picked for the bench. I'm clueless as to how he can be spending time in Miami, though, isn't he supposed to be training?

Yeah, yeah ok Jim let's do that so long as it suits your argument....

Not sure if i can actually believe some of the stuff i'm reading tonight if i'm honest on this Thread..

[MSingh]

m, can you tell us how you're supposed to build on last season when the manager has most of his supposed transfer budget stolen from him to pay off the owners' unmanageable debts? he can't magic players out of thin air to improve the squad.

Transfer budget " stolen " from him ?? Firstly nothing was " stolen " from him, it's their Club, their money, he has no divine right to have an unlimited transfer budget in a global recession.

Anyway, he was the one who decided to splash out 18m on a Right Back, a;beit a good one, but a Right Back nevetheless !!!!!

I'm talking about the Club on the whole Steve, the Club should have built on last Season but the circumstances it seems, wasn't to be & i, believe it or not, would like to see a Liverpool who are regulary challenging for domestic honours, it'd be good for the League..

It doesn't just happen to Liverpool you know either, Rafa has had a hel_l of a lot of $$ over the past 4 or 5 Years, more money than the majority of Clubs could ever dream of & he just hasn't bought well enough during that time to BUILD a decent Squad so having a limited budget for a Summer is just an excuse & is covering over the cracks & it seems to suit everyone.

Look at the Player's he's bought, Babel & Masch for 30m of the finest British Pounds, add a Right Back ( certainly NOT the most important position on the Pitch ) & we're talking 50m big one's ?????????

Babel is not good enough is he at the level your lot expect to be ( even though i rate him personally ) & not worth the money laid out for him, even if he does have potential, which means money not being spent well..

Masch is a decent Player but misses Alonson badly ( who wouldn't, granted ) so instead of relacing him to complement Mascherano AND attempt to bring a bit of creativity into the centre of Midfield, he bought an injury prone, untested Italian for another 17m who may or may not come good or break down again like he does in every other Season he's played in ( we're up to 67m now ), lashed out 18m on Glen Johnson, a Right Back, played a Player who is the same Player as Masch ( Lucas, & that's being comlimentary ) & a " potentially " good Player who cost 1.5m from France ( Ngog ) as your main Striker in some Games, making you drop points left right & centre in the first half of the Season..

If you have a Manager who needs a Transfer Budget that's bordering on unlimited like you lot seem to want him being given, then that isn't a decent Manager & not someone i'd want spending my money if i was Statler & Waldorf, who probably have a little look down the M62 every now & then & notice that their Manager got a Striker in on a play as you play who scores CL Hat Tricks, saw them lose the best Player in teh World & Carlos Tevez & replace them both with a Fella from Wigan, yet cruised their CL Group & sitting a couple of points of Chelsea at the top of the League..

Sorry Chaps, i think your problems are there for all to see but you just dont' want to see it..

Of course, you would could probably do with a change of Ownership cos it seems to have gone incredibly sour all of it but you need a change of something else too.....

Sorry for requoting an oldish Post ^^ but it has relevence Steve & i still believe the money that he has used ( Torres aside ) has overall been used poorly & the Signings of the likes of Dossena, Voronin etc ARE the reasons why you are not challenging or why you don't have the Squad you want.

Why would they give him more money when you like at it like that ^^ ??

Of course that brings up a whole new Arguement of why don't they Sack him then & allow a new Manager to invest & fresh funds & the answer to it migth be as simple as there isn't any but that doesn't take away the fact that Benitez, not the Yanks, have spent poorly over the past 3 Seasons.

[MSingh]

Anyway, lads, is it any wonder that Voronin has already checked out of Liverpool and will be heading for the door rather soon? This picture with his wife was taken in Miami just last week! Now, excepting numbskull Jo for Everton, I don't think any other players on Merseyside took flights across the Atlantic for a little Christmas/New Year vacation as there's no break now and it's a busy time...Seems clear Voronin was getting in some vacation time as he obviously was not going to be even picked for the bench. I'm clueless as to how he can be spending time in Miami, though, isn't he supposed to be training?

rafa told him to piss off about three weeks ago because he was being a lazy and contrary cun_t in training. so he was told to go and not come back to melwood. i prefer this photo of him and his chavtastic wife:

oh and good news is that it looks like we've got maxi rodriguez from atleti for a loan deal. also good news is that voronin and dossena look like they're going, for 2m and 4.4m respectively. good chance of babel being sold for about 9m too. so that's 15m we raise in this window from sales, none of it we're allowed to re-invest in player signings. you reading this msingh?

I am reading it yeah...

Bad Signings by Benitez in the first place then aye ??

[sharecropper]

StevieH you said: you're still missing the point m. he was promised the money from the sale of robbie keane to re-invest in the squad, he didn't get it.

So Benitez, who massively cocked up buying Keane, then panicked (now probably erroneously) into offloading him having not played him in position afer buying him, takes a bath on the transfer fee and then wants to spend MORE?

He's just made a net loss.! Only a fool would give him it back to reinvest.

There should be some sort of performance-linked element of manager's salaries that fluctuates with their financial success in the transfer market. If that were the case, Rafa would have been outside Central Station rattling a begging bowl by now.

Would you trust him to invest YOUR money wisely?

[MSingh]

StevieH you said: you're still missing the point m. he was promised the money from the sale of robbie keane to re-invest in the squad, he didn't get it.

So Benitez, who massively cocked up buying Keane, then panicked (now probably erroneously) into offloading him having not played him in position afer buying him, takes a bath on the transfer fee and then wants to spend MORE?

He's just made a net loss.! Only a fool would give him it back to reinvest.

There should be some sort of performance-linked element of manager's salaries that fluctuates with their financial success in the transfer market. If that were the case, Rafa would have been outside Central Station rattling a begging bowl by now.

Would you trust him to invest YOUR money wisely?

I've now got a mental picture of Rafa outside the Punch N Judy Boozer at Lime Street begging...

[Jimjim]

Before reading the post i was wondering why you put a picture of yourself on here Jim

Hilarious...I was ing.

[Jimjim]

Yeah, yeah ok Jim let's do that so long as it suits your argument....

Not sure if i can actually believe some of the stuff i'm reading tonight if i'm honest on this Thread..

Wow, wacko? You go off spouting some philosophy of nobody deserves money and except us just to accept it as common sense? So I guess no club should ever invest in the squad ever again because nobody "deserves" anything? That's what I was talking about. It's hardly relevant and definitely not realistic. Stevie's just giving the facts as he seems them, and his assessment seems much more in tune with reality than yours.

MSingh, as usual like the press does, you focus only on Rafa's poor signings. Ever manager has good and bad signings. He's often had to sell players to get new ones, like selling Bellamy to get Torres.

What about the massive profit Alonso was sold for? What about good signings like Garcia and, dare I mention it, Torres? How about signing a player for just one million pounds who now has scored 6 goals for the club this season? But of course that's Ngog and he's crap because he has a weird name and nobody's ever heard of him and he dives, right?

Honestly can't believe what I'm reading when you post on this subject, really. Voronin was a free transfer so any money we get will be profit, same with Degen although if Babel leaves it will likely be a loss and same with Dossena. It happens with any club.

You seem to think he's a poor manager in general or not good in the market, fine. Doesn't mean you're right....

Nothing personal, mate.

Edited January 6, 2010 by Jimjim

[StevieH]

Anyway, lads, is it any wonder that Voronin has already checked out of Liverpool and will be heading for the door rather soon? This picture with his wife was taken in Miami just last week! Now, excepting numbskull Jo for Everton, I don't think any other players on Merseyside took flights across the Atlantic for a little Christmas/New Year vacation as there's no break now and it's a busy time...Seems clear Voronin was getting in some vacation time as he obviously was not going to be even picked for the bench. I'm clueless as to how he can be spending time in Miami, though, isn't he supposed to be training?

rafa told him to piss off about three weeks ago because he was being a lazy and contrary cun_t in training. so he was told to go and not come back to melwood. i prefer this photo of him and his chavtastic wife:

oh and good news is that it looks like we've got maxi rodriguez from atleti for a loan deal. also good news is that voronin and dossena look like they're going, for 2m and 4.4m respectively. good chance of babel being sold for about 9m too. so that's 15m we raise in this window from sales, none of it we're allowed to re-invest in player signings. you reading this msingh?

I am reading it yeah...

Bad Signings by Benitez in the first place then aye ??

all managers make mistakes in the transfer market. every one of them does. just that some clubs can afford those mistakes more than others can.

[StevieH]

m, can you tell us how you're supposed to build on last season when the manager has most of his supposed transfer budget stolen from him to pay off the owners' unmanageable debts? he can't magic players out of thin air to improve the squad.

Transfer budget " stolen " from him ?? Firstly nothing was " stolen " from him, it's their Club, their money, he has no divine right to have an unlimited transfer budget in a global recession.

Anyway, he was the one who decided to splash out 18m on a Right Back, a;beit a good one, but a Right Back nevetheless !!!!!

I'm talking about the Club on the whole Steve, the Club should have built on last Season but the circumstances it seems, wasn't to be & i, believe it or not, would like to see a Liverpool who are regulary challenging for domestic honours, it'd be good for the League..

It doesn't just happen to Liverpool you know either, Rafa has had a hel_l of a lot of $$ over the past 4 or 5 Years, more money than the majority of Clubs could ever dream of & he just hasn't bought well enough during that time to BUILD a decent Squad so having a limited budget for a Summer is just an excuse & is covering over the cracks & it seems to suit everyone.

Look at the Player's he's bought, Babel & Masch for 30m of the finest British Pounds, add a Right Back ( certainly NOT the most important position on the Pitch ) & we're talking 50m big one's ?????????

Babel is not good enough is he at the level your lot expect to be ( even though i rate him personally ) & not worth the money laid out for him, even if he does have potential, which means money not being spent well..

Masch is a decent Player but misses Alonson badly ( who wouldn't, granted ) so instead of relacing him to complement Mascherano AND attempt to bring a bit of creativity into the centre of Midfield, he bought an injury prone, untested Italian for another 17m who may or may not come good or break down again like he does in every other Season he's played in ( we're up to 67m now ), lashed out 18m on Glen Johnson, a Right Back, played a Player who is the same Player as Masch ( Lucas, & that's being comlimentary ) & a " potentially " good Player who cost 1.5m from France ( Ngog ) as your main Striker in some Games, making you drop points left right & centre in the first half of the Season..

If you have a Manager who needs a Transfer Budget that's bordering on unlimited like you lot seem to want him being given, then that isn't a decent Manager & not someone i'd want spending my money if i was Statler & Waldorf, who probably have a little look down the M62 every now & then & notice that their Manager got a Striker in on a play as you play who scores CL Hat Tricks, saw them lose the best Player in teh World & Carlos Tevez & replace them both with a Fella from Wigan, yet cruised their CL Group & sitting a couple of points of Chelsea at the top of the League..

Sorry Chaps, i think your problems are there for all to see but you just dont' want to see it..

Of course, you would could probably do with a change of Ownership cos it seems to have gone incredibly sour all of it but you need a change of something else too.....

Sorry for requoting an oldish Post ^^ but it has relevence Steve & i still believe the money that he has used ( Torres aside ) has overall been used poorly & the Signings of the likes of Dossena, Voronin etc ARE the reasons why you are not challenging or why you don't have the Squad you want.

Why would they give him more money when you like at it like that ^^ ??

Of course that brings up a whole new Arguement of why don't they Sack him then & allow a new Manager to invest & fresh funds & the answer to it migth be as simple as there isn't any but that doesn't take away the fact that Benitez, not the Yanks, have spent poorly over the past 3 Seasons.

you're still missing the point m, come on, i took you for brighter than this. i answered that older post of yours previously.

1. you want to catch moneybags chelsea and massively entrenched, established and experienced man utd, you have to invest more than 16m each summer on transfers.

2. you say poor signings over the last three seasons, our net spend over the last two seasons has been less than 13 other clubs in the top flight.

3. we have become a selling club, we have to sell to finance debt first, then if we're very lucky maybe replace the odd player here and there.

4. "Of course that brings up a whole new Arguement of why don't they Sack him then & allow a new Manager to invest & fresh funds " - there are no fresh funds m. again, there are no fresh funds. it would cost 20m to get rid of rafa, more to sign his replacement, and we would still have no transfer budget. we would still have to finance interest payments first before being able to address the playing squad.

not being funny but is this going in yet mate?

[alfieconn]

m, can you tell us how you're supposed to build on last season when the manager has most of his supposed transfer budget stolen from him to pay off the owners' unmanageable debts? he can't magic players out of thin air to improve the squad.

Transfer budget " stolen " from him ?? Firstly nothing was " stolen " from him, it's their Club, their money, he has no divine right to have an unlimited transfer budget in a global recession.

Anyway, he was the one who decided to splash out 18m on a Right Back, a;beit a good one, but a Right Back nevetheless !!!!!

I'm talking about the Club on the whole Steve, the Club should have built on last Season but the circumstances it seems, wasn't to be & i, believe it or not, would like to see a Liverpool who are regulary challenging for domestic honours, it'd be good for the League..

It doesn't just happen to Liverpool you know either, Rafa has had a hel_l of a lot of $$ over the past 4 or 5 Years, more money than the majority of Clubs could ever dream of & he just hasn't bought well enough during that time to BUILD a decent Squad so having a limited budget for a Summer is just an excuse & is covering over the cracks & it seems to suit everyone.

Look at the Player's he's bought, Babel & Masch for 30m of the finest British Pounds, add a Right Back ( certainly NOT the most important position on the Pitch ) & we're talking 50m big one's ?????????

Babel is not good enough is he at the level your lot expect to be ( even though i rate him personally ) & not worth the money laid out for him, even if he does have potential, which means money not being spent well..

Masch is a decent Player but misses Alonson badly ( who wouldn't, granted ) so instead of relacing him to complement Mascherano AND attempt to bring a bit of creativity into the centre of Midfield, he bought an injury prone, untested Italian for another 17m who may or may not come good or break down again like he does in every other Season he's played in ( we're up to 67m now ), lashed out 18m on Glen Johnson, a Right Back, played a Player who is the same Player as Masch ( Lucas, & that's being comlimentary ) & a " potentially " good Player who cost 1.5m from France ( Ngog ) as your main Striker in some Games, making you drop points left right & centre in the first half of the Season..

If you have a Manager who needs a Transfer Budget that's bordering on unlimited like you lot seem to want him being given, then that isn't a decent Manager & not someone i'd want spending my money if i was Statler & Waldorf, who probably have a little look down the M62 every now & then & notice that their Manager got a Striker in on a play as you play who scores CL Hat Tricks, saw them lose the best Player in teh World & Carlos Tevez & replace them both with a Fella from Wigan, yet cruised their CL Group & sitting a couple of points of Chelsea at the top of the League..

Sorry Chaps, i think your problems are there for all to see but you just dont' want to see it..

Of course, you would could probably do with a change of Ownership cos it seems to have gone incredibly sour all of it but you need a change of something else too.....

Sorry for requoting an oldish Post ^^ but it has relevence Steve & i still believe the money that he has used ( Torres aside ) has overall been used poorly & the Signings of the likes of Dossena, Voronin etc ARE the reasons why you are not challenging or why you don't have the Squad you want.

Why would they give him more money when you like at it like that ^^ ??

Of course that brings up a whole new Arguement of why don't they Sack him then & allow a new Manager to invest & fresh funds & the answer to it migth be as simple as there isn't any but that doesn't take away the fact that Benitez, not the Yanks, have spent poorly over the past 3 Seasons.

you're still missing the point m, come on, i took you for brighter than this. i answered that older post of yours previously.

1. you want to catch moneybags chelsea and massively entrenched, established and experienced man utd, you have to invest more than 16m each summer on transfers.

2. you say poor signings over the last three seasons, our net spend over the last two seasons has been less than 13 other clubs in the top flight.

3. we have become a selling club, we have to sell to finance debt first, then if we're very lucky maybe replace the odd player here and there.

4. "Of course that brings up a whole new Arguement of why don't they Sack him then & allow a new Manager to invest & fresh funds " - there are no fresh funds m. again, there are no fresh funds. it would cost 20m to get rid of rafa, more to sign his replacement, and we would still have no transfer budget. we would still have to finance interest payments first before being able to address the playing squad.

not being funny but is this going in yet mate?

Well thats it then, there fcuked

[MSingh]

m, can you tell us how you're supposed to build on last season when the manager has most of his supposed transfer budget stolen from him to pay off the owners' unmanageable debts? he can't magic players out of thin air to improve the squad.

Transfer budget " stolen " from him ?? Firstly nothing was " stolen " from him, it's their Club, their money, he has no divine right to have an unlimited transfer budget in a global recession.

Anyway, he was the one who decided to splash out 18m on a Right Back, a;beit a good one, but a Right Back nevetheless !!!!!

I'm talking about the Club on the whole Steve, the Club should have built on last Season but the circumstances it seems, wasn't to be & i, believe it or not, would like to see a Liverpool who are regulary challenging for domestic honours, it'd be good for the League..

It doesn't just happen to Liverpool you know either, Rafa has had a hel_l of a lot of $$ over the past 4 or 5 Years, more money than the majority of Clubs could ever dream of & he just hasn't bought well enough during that time to BUILD a decent Squad so having a limited budget for a Summer is just an excuse & is covering over the cracks & it seems to suit everyone.

Look at the Player's he's bought, Babel & Masch for 30m of the finest British Pounds, add a Right Back ( certainly NOT the most important position on the Pitch ) & we're talking 50m big one's ?????????

Babel is not good enough is he at the level your lot expect to be ( even though i rate him personally ) & not worth the money laid out for him, even if he does have potential, which means money not being spent well..

Masch is a decent Player but misses Alonson badly ( who wouldn't, granted ) so instead of relacing him to complement Mascherano AND attempt to bring a bit of creativity into the centre of Midfield, he bought an injury prone, untested Italian for another 17m who may or may not come good or break down again like he does in every other Season he's played in ( we're up to 67m now ), lashed out 18m on Glen Johnson, a Right Back, played a Player who is the same Player as Masch ( Lucas, & that's being comlimentary ) & a " potentially " good Player who cost 1.5m from France ( Ngog ) as your main Striker in some Games, making you drop points left right & centre in the first half of the Season..

If you have a Manager who needs a Transfer Budget that's bordering on unlimited like you lot seem to want him being given, then that isn't a decent Manager & not someone i'd want spending my money if i was Statler & Waldorf, who probably have a little look down the M62 every now & then & notice that their Manager got a Striker in on a play as you play who scores CL Hat Tricks, saw them lose the best Player in teh World & Carlos Tevez & replace them both with a Fella from Wigan, yet cruised their CL Group & sitting a couple of points of Chelsea at the top of the League..

Sorry Chaps, i think your problems are there for all to see but you just dont' want to see it..

Of course, you would could probably do with a change of Ownership cos it seems to have gone incredibly sour all of it but you need a change of something else too.....

Sorry for requoting an oldish Post ^^ but it has relevence Steve & i still believe the money that he has used ( Torres aside ) has overall been used poorly & the Signings of the likes of Dossena, Voronin etc ARE the reasons why you are not challenging or why you don't have the Squad you want.

Why would they give him more money when you like at it like that ^^ ??

Of course that brings up a whole new Arguement of why don't they Sack him then & allow a new Manager to invest & fresh funds & the answer to it migth be as simple as there isn't any but that doesn't take away the fact that Benitez, not the Yanks, have spent poorly over the past 3 Seasons.

you're still missing the point m, come on, i took you for brighter than this. i answered that older post of yours previously.

1. you want to catch moneybags chelsea and massively entrenched, established and experienced man utd, you have to invest more than 16m each summer on transfers.

2. you say poor signings over the last three seasons, our net spend over the last two seasons has been less than 13 other clubs in the top flight.

3. we have become a selling club, we have to sell to finance debt first, then if we're very lucky maybe replace the odd player here and there.

4. "Of course that brings up a whole new Arguement of why don't they Sack him then & allow a new Manager to invest & fresh funds " - there are no fresh funds m. again, there are no fresh funds. it would cost 20m to get rid of rafa, more to sign his replacement, and we would still have no transfer budget. we would still have to finance interest payments first before being able to address the playing squad.

not being funny but is this going in yet mate?

No no Stevie, i'm not missing your Points at all, i hear them & see them loud & clear, i just don't necessarily agree with them or your outlook on this..

[MSingh]

Yeah, yeah ok Jim let's do that so long as it suits your argument....

Not sure if i can actually believe some of the stuff i'm reading tonight if i'm honest on this Thread..

Wow, wacko? You go off spouting some philosophy of nobody deserves money and except us just to accept it as common sense? So I guess no club should ever invest in the squad ever again because nobody "deserves" anything? That's what I was talking about. It's hardly relevant and definitely not realistic. Stevie's just giving the facts as he seems them, and his assessment seems much more in tune with reality than yours.

MSingh, as usual like the press does, you focus only on Rafa's poor signings. Ever manager has good and bad signings. He's often had to sell players to get new ones, like selling Bellamy to get Torres.

What about the massive profit Alonso was sold for? What about good signings like Garcia and, dare I mention it, Torres? How about signing a player for just one million pounds who now has scored 6 goals for the club this season? But of course that's Ngog and he's crap because he has a weird name and nobody's ever heard of him and he dives, right?

Honestly can't believe what I'm reading when you post on this subject, really. Voronin was a free transfer so any money we get will be profit, same with Degen although if Babel leaves it will likely be a loss and same with Dossena. It happens with any club.

You seem to think he's a poor manager in general or not good in the market, fine. Doesn't mean you're right....

Nothing personal, mate.

As HE sees them = Exactly my point, it's just someone's opinion that differs from mine, it doesn't make it right ( see below ).

Much more in tune with reality than mine = Why ?? Because he supports Liverpool, as i can't see any other reason.

Dare you mention Torres = You did mention Torres, twice in fact & just like i did when acknowledging that he was a good bvuy but no disrespect, anyone who knows anything about teh beautiful Game & Torres at Athletico knew that he was special.

Ngog being crap because he has a dodgy name & dives = Nonsense

It happens with any Club = Yes it does but by Stevie's own admittance, your Club can't afford it to happen as regulary as it seems to happen with the Manager you have.

Doesn't mean i'm right = Of course it doesn't, but just because i don't support Liverpool doesn't men i'm wrong either.

Nothing personal = Completely cool, the Forum would be very boring if we all agreed with each other..

[StevieH]

at the end of the day, the world at large, the media, fans of other clubs and many liverpool fans are 'expecting' liverpool to compete for the title every season on a budget less than that of say tottenham. why is this? because of history? nobody 'expects' villa to challenge for the title yet they've outspent liverpool over the past few seasons. again, why is this?

rafa benitez is a top class manager but no manager can make a title-winning team in england without massive, massive amounts to spend these days. makes what he did with valencia all the more miraculous.

[longstebe]

Ok lads, we have spurs on Sunday, I think we will have too much for them. The extra game against Reading next week will do us the world

of good whilst were getting back to good form. Two home games to get more confidence back.

A win on Sunday will get them talking about us again

[carmine]

Ok lads, we have spurs on Sunday, I think we will have too much for them. The extra game against Reading next week will do us the world

of good whilst were getting back to good form. Two home games to get more confidence back.

A win on Sunday will get them talking about us again

You will have what exactly that will be too much for us?........ apart from debt that is

Edited January 8, 2010 by carmine

[MSingh]

at the end of the day, the world at large, the media, fans of other clubs and many liverpool fans are 'expecting' liverpool to compete for the title every season on a budget less than that of say tottenham. why is this? because of history? nobody 'expects' villa to challenge for the title yet they've outspent liverpool over the past few seasons. again, why is this?

Because you have 3 of the best Players in the World in their positions, in Torres, Gerrard & Reina maybe & they haven't ??

No one in their right mind should " expect " Liverpool to win anything & i certainly don't/didn't because, those 3 aside, you're average at best, at best, whether you want/do believe it or not & the reason why your average at best is because of the Signings your Manager has made.

[bkkjames]

at the end of the day, the world at large, the media, fans of other clubs and many liverpool fans are 'expecting' liverpool to compete for the title every season on a budget less than that of say tottenham. why is this? because of history? nobody 'expects' villa to challenge for the title yet they've outspent liverpool over the past few seasons. again, why is this?

Because you have 3 of the best Players in the World in their positions, in Torres, Gerrard & Reina maybe & they haven't ??

No one in their right mind should " expect " Liverpool to win anything & i certainly don't/didn't because, those 3 aside, you're average at best, at best, whether you want/do believe it or not & the reason why your average at best is because of the Signings your Manager has made.

I would suggest zonal marking plays a part as well Singer.

[carmine]

at the end of the day, the world at large, the media, fans of other clubs and many liverpool fans are 'expecting' liverpool to compete for the title every season on a budget less than that of say tottenham. why is this? because of history? nobody 'expects' villa to challenge for the title yet they've outspent liverpool over the past few seasons. again, why is this?

Because you have 3 of the best Players in the World in their positions, in Torres, Gerrard & Reina maybe & they haven't ??

No one in their right mind should " expect " Liverpool to win anything & i certainly don't/didn't because, those 3 aside, you're average at best, at best, whether you want/do believe it or not & the reason why your average at best is because of the Signings your Manager has made.

When did Reina become one of the best players in the world? I do know he's second choice for his country.

[alfieconn]

at the end of the day, the world at large, the media, fans of other clubs and many liverpool fans are 'expecting' liverpool to compete for the title every season on a budget less than that of say tottenham. why is this? because of history? nobody 'expects' villa to challenge for the title yet they've outspent liverpool over the past few seasons. again, why is this?

Because you have 3 of the best Players in the World in their positions, in Torres, Gerrard & Reina maybe & they haven't ??

No one in their right mind should " expect " Liverpool to win anything & i certainly don't/didn't because, those 3 aside, you're average at best, at best, whether you want/do believe it or not & the reason why your average at best is because of the Signings your Manager has made.

When did Reina become one of the best players in the world? I do know he's second choice for his country.

Can't really see the game being on this weekend, i know there's a lot of hot air that come's out of liverpool but not enough to clear that amount of snow and ice