A court in Kabul, Afghansitan is considering the death penalty for an Afghan man for reportedly converting to Christianity 16 years ago !

"An Afghan man who allegedly converted from Islam to Christianity is being prosecuted in a Kabul court and could be sentenced to death, a judge said Sunday."

Of course, the "Peaceful and Tolerant" religion of Islam would never condone violence and intolerance towards others, would it ?

"Afghanistan's constitution is based on Shariah law, which states that any Muslim who rejects their religion should be sentenced to death.

"We are not against any particular religion in the world. But in Afghanistan, this sort of thing is against the law," the judge said. "It is an attack on Islam. ... The prosecutor is asking for the death penalty."

Wow. I guess we were all wrong. It is a peaceful and tolerant religion.

Just one that is willing to execute any one who changes their minds, blows up symbols of other religions (even other branches of their own religion), thinks nothing of murdering scores of non-believers (which includes Muslims of other branches of Islam), stones women to death for being rape victims, chops off hands for petty theft and so on.

Full story:

Canada.com 19 March 2006

Judge: "It is an attack on the Islam"

Thanks for sharing this news. After I read it I have informed the largest newspaper in my country about this article...***

...My country who is sending troops to help and restore 'peace' in Afghanistan at the cost of hundreds of Millions of Euro ......not to speak of the dead and wounded soldiers already and to be...(including from other countries of course)

*** May I suggest other members to inform their country newspapers also about this 'law' in Afghanistan?

The more publicity, the more effective!

LaoPo

Please, please, please, let's not make this a thread against Islam. This is about the Afghans, not Islam. As was stated, the Afghans are also against fellow Muslims who don't believe 'exactly' what they do, even on points clearly open to interpretation.

There are people like this everywhere, if it wasn't religion it would be something else.

So it's not the religion, it's the law of that country.

Please, please, please, let's not make this a thread against Islam. This is about the Afghans, not Islam. As was stated, the Afghans are also against fellow Muslims who don't believe 'exactly' what they do, even on points clearly open to interpretation.

There are people like this everywhere, if it wasn't religion it would be something else.

So it's not the religion, it's the law of that country.

Quote from the Judge:

"""Afghanistan's constitution is based on Shariah law, which states that any Muslim who rejects their religion should be sentenced to death. """

The law is (based on) the religion - religion is (based on) the law.

I don't think anybody was thinking of creating a thread against the Islam; it is meant to open the eyes of the Western world and try to save the life of this man.

LaoPo

in islamic countries , the law is dictated by the religion , there is no separation. the religion is the law and the law is the religion.

to say its not the religion is , i'm afraid , way way off the mark.

so by criticizing the law , you are also criticizing islam.

its unavoidable , which is why there is so much trouble between the western world and the world of islam.

the two worlds cannot co-exist peacefully.

the world is slowly but inexorably heading for a mighty showdown sometime in the future between islam and the rest of the world.

the signs and portents are there for everyone to see.

afghanistan , iraq , al qaaeda , iran and its nuclear development , palestine and hamaas , the wests need for oil from islamic countries , the increase in the islamic populations in christian countries and the changes in political sysytems coming as a result in those demographic changes.

Imagine the uproar that would happen in the west if the reverse were true.

"US Supreme Court sentences man to death for converting from Baptist to Buddhist"

"France executes Catholic convert, claims the former Protestant deserved death"

"England hangs citizen for switching religions. States that: Once a Christian, Always a Christian"

"Canada threatens to do.................nothing.............to former Scientologist that has converted to Druidism"

Yep. I'm sure there'd be little or no reaction if the same event happened in Europe or N America.

Imagine the uproar that would happen in the west if the reverse were true.

"US Supreme Court sentences man to death for converting from Baptist to Buddhist"

"France executes Catholic convert, claims the former Protestant deserved death"

"England hangs citizen for switching religions. States that: Once a Christian, Always a Christian"

"Canada threatens to do.................nothing.............to former Scientologist that has converted to Druidism"

Yep. I'm sure there'd be little or no reaction if the same event happened in Europe or N America.

Imagine...?

World War III

LaoPo

Sad!

Sad!

Think about this.

He supposedly converted SIXTEEN years ago !!

He was turned in by members of his own family !!!

I guess blood isn't thicker than water when it comes to religion ?

I found it surprising that his family turned him in. Afghanis have a tradition dating back centuries, that anyone invited into their home is treated as an honoured guest, and would be defended to the death if need be. They are still a very tribal people.

Remember that incident awhile back where that helecopter crashed in Afghanistan, while on a mission looking for a missing SEAL team ?

One of the missing SEAL members was found in an Afghani village. He had been wounded and a local villager brought him into his home.

Because of that ancient tradition, nobody in the village tried to hand the SEAL over to the bad guys, and that villager would have died before even considering handing him over.

For this guys family to turn him in, he must have pissed them off in the worse possible way. They knew what kind of punishment he would be facing.

There may a ray of light for this guy.

The story started making the rounds of the international media shortly after it was posted here. Since then it has received a lot of attention (despite the poor report that the Faux network did).

The Afghan government is now scrambling to find a way out of this trial due to the amount of international pressure it has been receiving.

5 countries (USA, Britian, Canada, Germany and Italy) that have troops in Afghanistan have expressed concern over the trial.

There are some rumours (none substantiated) that some of the NATO allies may pull their troops from Afghanistan if this man is sentenced to death.

The prosecutor in the case has now questioned whether or not the defendant is mentally fit to stand trial. This is their "out". He is to have a pyschological exam and if he fails it, he will be released.

(wanna bet that he even opens his mouth to speak, he will fail the exam ?)

Additonal info:

German and Dutch governments are very concerned and worried and the Dutch Foreign Affairs minister Bot will call upon the Afghan Ambassador.

shortened, free translation from article in the Dutch press:

"41 year Abdul Rahman worked in both Pakistan and Germany for a Christian Aid org.

According to the Afghan Constitution there is freedom of Religion. The Sharia, the Islamic law is not the jurisdictional basis of the Afghan country.

Since the 'Karzai' era no deathpenalties have been carried out.

"A Muslim cannot convert himself into another Religion" says Hassan Nahhas, active member of the Islamic group Hizb ut-Tharir in Beirout.

The Islam is the logical conclusion of other Religions. That's why a Christian or Jew can change their Religion into Islam - that would even be logical.

But vice versa is not possible....it is strictly forbidden"

Many Muslims believe that the Islam is the successor of the Jews and later Christianity.

Yet, Christians can live a normal life in many Islamic countries...And in radical Iran live some 25.000 Jews who can go to the Synagog without disturbing them...

They (Christians+Jews) may-and-can live undisturbed in many Islamic countries because they were never Muslim before.

"They have not seen the Light, yet, but we cannot blame those people....

"""""""""""""""""""""""

LaoPo

There may a ray of light for this guy.

The story started making the rounds of the international media shortly after it was posted here. Since then it has received a lot of attention (despite the poor report that the Faux network did).

The Afghan government is now scrambling to find a way out of this trial due to the amount of international pressure it has been receiving.

5 countries (USA, Britian, Canada, Germany and Italy) that have troops in Afghanistan have expressed concern over the trial.

There are some rumours (none substantiated) that some of the NATO allies may pull their troops from Afghanistan if this man is sentenced to death.

The prosecutor in the case has now questioned whether or not the defendant is mentally fit to stand trial. This is their "out". He is to have a pyschological exam and if he fails it, he will be released.

(wanna bet that he even opens his mouth to speak, he will fail the exam ?)

I dare say he won't be executed - if he is then might as well have the Taliban back.

Obey the law of the land or be prepared to do the time for the crime...

Where are all the 'law and order' advocates now? :D

Obey the law of the land or be prepared to do the time for the crime...

Where are all the 'law and order' advocates now? :D

Well amazingly Afghanistan constitution guarantees religious freedom? Sounds like he hasnt done anything wrong to me.

Most islamic country have the so called "religious freedom" but just that you can't convert into another religion if you are a muslim/islam.

Explorer

Most islamic country have the so called "religious freedom" but just that you can't convert into another religion if you are a muslim/islam.

Explorer

It's true. It's not the way most of us would define religious freedom!

but then, most countries, not only islamic, follow their religion(s) "so to say"

Afganistan is special place - no Brits, no Soviets were able to break them. surely Americans won't either ! those pushtuns and other tribes - ferocious. no amount of "tomahawks" gonna force them into submission.

Afganistan is special place

Tell me about it (having just spent 2 and a little bit years there).

Most of them, in their day-to-day lives are not much different than the rest of us.

They want better jobs so they can make more money and provide for their families. When you interact with them as individuals, they aren't much different than people I know in N America/Europe/Thailand (well, except for the hand-holding thing )

Just don't bring up religion, or be anywhere around when a religious confrontation is taking place.

They tend to go completely off their rockers when religion is involved.

Afganistan is special place

Tell me about it (having just spent 2 and a little bit years there).

Most of them, in their day-to-day lives are not much different than the rest of us.

They want better jobs so they can make more money and provide for their families. When you interact with them as individuals, they aren't much different than people I know in N America/Europe/Thailand (well, except for the hand-holding thing )

Just don't bring up religion, or be anywhere around when a religious confrontation is taking place.

They tend to go completely off their rockers when religion is involved.

Good advise Kerryd, not that I expect that a lot of us intent to go there in the near future....not me, but my thoughts are with the soldiers doing the 'dirty' jobs there as well as the aid-workers.

Are you planning to go back...work maybe?

LaoPo

Are you planning to go back...work maybe?

LaoPo[/color]

I'd like to, for two reasons. The money (of course ) and this extended vacation that I'm on starts wearing on me after awhile.

Unfortunately, the company I was with won't send us civilians back there if they think there is a slim possibility of anyone getting hurt (they are far too concerned with potential lawsuits from people who volunteer in writing to go to places like this)

Additonal info:

German and Dutch governments are very concerned and worried and the Dutch Foreign Affairs minister Bot will call upon the Afghan Ambassador.

shortened, free translation from article in the Dutch press:

"41 year Abdul Rahman worked in both Pakistan and Germany for a Christian Aid org.

According to the Afghan Constitution there is freedom of Religion. The Sharia, the Islamic law is not the jurisdictional basis of the Afghan country.

Since the 'Karzai' era no deathpenalties have been carried out.

"A Muslim cannot convert himself into another Religion" says Hassan Nahhas, active member of the Islamic group Hizb ut-Tharir in Beirout.

The Islam is the logical conclusion of other Religions. That's why a Christian or Jew can change their Religion into Islam - that would even be logical.

But vice versa is not possible....it is strictly forbidden"

Many Muslims believe that the Islam is the successor of the Jews and later Christianity.

Yet, Christians can live a normal life in many Islamic countries...And in radical Iran live some 25.000 Jews who can go to the Synagog without disturbing them...

They (Christians+Jews) may-and-can live undisturbed in many Islamic countries because they were never Muslim before.

"They have not seen the Light, yet, but we cannot blame those people....

"""""""""""""""""""""""

LaoPo

Update

Watched a television program about this issue tonight:

1. Germany threatens to withdraw troops.

2. Dutch pressure is growing.

3. Canada, Britain and USA the same.

Amazing Television interviews with JUDGE, PROSECUTOR AND ACCUSED

* Judge was careful with his words

* Prosecutor demands the death penalty

* Accused is whole-heartedly prepared to die...for being a Christian since 16 years.

He was captured with a Bible

Many people in the streets were interviewed. The majority said: He deserves to die, being a Christian (former Muslim).

Karzai personally, has to sign the death-sentence but it is believed it will not come that far.

The Court (and Government) is in a difficult position now with so much pressure from the West.

Afghanistan...

LaoPo

What amazes me is that his family knew about him being a Christian pretty much the whole time, yet even when the Taliban were in powere, they didn't report him.

Why now then ?

Turns out he is in a child-custody battle with his (ex ?) wife. (you know how nasty those can be).

So, you are in a child custody battle in a country that treats women like cattle. You (as the wife/mother) have virtually no rights in this male dominated society. Chances are you are going to lose regardless of how justified your position is. What do you do ?

Turn your ex in to the authorities, knowing he could be executed for his "crime".

(Not sure if the guy has any living male relatives. If he does, they would probably end up with the children and she would still lose ! That's pretty much the way it works there.)

This is disgraceful. We send troops to save their country from Islamist extremists (the only noble cause of this war, not the revenge of 911) and this is what we get

Their prez bettter not signed that death sentence, or else he is dead internationally.

This is disgraceful. We send troops to save their country from Islamist extremists (the only noble cause of this war, not the revenge of 911) and this is what we get

Their prez bettter not signed that death sentence, or else he is dead internationally.

He won't.

He owes too much to the US (which opposes the case), and expects more in the future.

If need be, his own people (hard-core Islamists) will be dealt with in the usual manner (behind the scenes bribes and death threats) to get them to back down.

And then, when everything is back to normal, and the press coverage has disappeared, the guy will accidentally get run over by a speeding taxi while squatting by the side of the road. Won't even make the local papers.

Latest update: source: AP.

"NO DEATHPENALTY FOR AFGHAN, 41 year old Abdul Rahman"

This is a Joke...what they claim now in Afghanistan

The Italian Minister of Foreign Affairs, Gianfranco Fini said it is not likely that he will be executed.

The Afghan Supreme Court announced yesterday (wednesday) that the suspect had 'possible' phsycic problems...will be examined, and that the whole case is probably not followed up and therefore no lawsuit...

Fini, who spoke to the Afghan Ambassador in Italy, confirmed that Rahman will not 'receive' the heaviest punishment (Death penalty)....so: what will he get...if he is declared insane ?

Afghanistan is restoring 'losing-face' and the suspect declared insane (likely).

Afghan soap-story but the question about Christianity or not in the Islamic country is not solved.

LaoPo

According to the news this morning, the Muslim clerics (in Kabul at least) are pretty much all calling for the guy to be hung.

One cleric, considered to be a moderate, even threatened an uprising similar to what happened after the Soviet invasion of the early 80's.

The clerics are saying that if the guy isn't executed, he will be torn apart by the crowds when he is released (at the instigation of those same clerics no doubt).

They say the only way he will live is if he goes into exile, but are demanding that he not be allowed to leave the country.

Lots of peace and tolerance being exhibited there

According to the news this morning, the Muslim clerics (in Kabul at least) are pretty much all calling for the guy to be hung.

One cleric, considered to be a moderate, even threatened an uprising similar to what happened after the Soviet invasion of the early 80's.

The clerics are saying that if the guy isn't executed, he will be torn apart by the crowds when he is released (at the instigation of those same clerics no doubt).

They say the only way he will live is if he goes into exile, but are demanding that he not be allowed to leave the country.

Lots of peace and tolerance being exhibited there

I suppose the only way out, for Karzai that is, to 'chopper' the fellow out of the country...otherwise he will indeed be torn and ripped into peaces by the crowds

Freedom of speech, Religion, Sharia Law.....

And we, the Western countries, are helping to restore peace and put a democratic country into place, at the costs of.............you name it

That's called an Utopia.

Who's next on the list? Iran? Syria? Nort Korea?

LaoPo

According to the news this morning, the Muslim clerics (in Kabul at least) are pretty much all calling for the guy to be hung.

One cleric, considered to be a moderate, even threatened an uprising similar to what happened after the Soviet invasion of the early 80's.

The clerics are saying that if the guy isn't executed, he will be torn apart by the crowds when he is released (at the instigation of those same clerics no doubt).

They say the only way he will live is if he goes into exile, but are demanding that he not be allowed to leave the country.

Lots of peace and tolerance being exhibited there

And why aren't they more American troops there ??? this is where the battle lies, not in silly Saddam's Iraq. All has been diverted to Iraq, and slowly but surely, Talibans and their like are coming back like nothing happened. Another total disaster brought to you by the Bush administration and paid for by US tax payers.

And why aren't they more American troops there ??? this is where the battle lies, not in silly Saddam's Iraq. All has been diverted to Iraq, and slowly but surely, Talibans and their like are coming back like nothing happened. Another total disaster brought to you by the Bush administration and paid for by US tax payers.

They weren't required.

The Taliban didn't have much of a standing army or air force, and after the Shock and Awe blitzkreig, they had even less.

Didn't take a lot of troops to control the country. NATO came in (primarily in Kabul) to keep the capitol under control, and the most of the 20,000 US troops went into the southern provinces to look for OBL.

Those troops are slowly being replaced by more NATO troops, though I doubt NATO will be able to muster enough troops to fully replace the US contingent.

The Taliban are usually more active in the spring after the snow melts in the mountain passes coming from Pakistan. They settle down during the scorching summers, do a little in the fall and then head back into Pakistan before those mountain passes get blocked again.

As it stands now, they don't have the support of the majority of the people. That is partially because of the nature of the Aghanis. They tend to side with which ever group is the strongest at the time. There were many instances of Afghani forces switching sides during their civil war (after the Russians were kicked out, before the Taliban managed to control the majority of the country).

Right now, ISAF and the Americans are the strongest group, so most of the Afghanis side with them (more or less). If the Taliban were able to mount an offensive and take control of some regions of the country, then they would suddenly enjoy the support of the majority of the population in that area.

Fortunately, as long as ISAF and the Americans are there, the Taliban will never be able to muster any kind of real offensive. They can only do their sporadic hit-and-run guerilla strikes, which are more of an annoyance than anything in the overall scheme of things.

Unfortunately, ISAF and the US aren't going to stay in Afghanistan forever. When they eventually do leave, the Taliban or their successors will be able to mount a offensive against the ruling government, and possibly achieve control of the country once again

Wow. This story has been in the news a lot lately.

Read a few articles this morning and saw another couple of reports on the boob tube.

The BBC News (online) had some statements from people in Afghanistan. Helps to show the attitude there right now:

"What is wrong with Islam that he should want to convert?" asks an agitated Abdul Zahid Payman.

"The courts should punish him and he should be put to death"

"According to Islamic law he should be sentenced to death because God has clearly stated that Christianity is forbidden in our land. Who is America to tell us what to do? If Karzai listens to them there will be jihad." says Mohammed Qadir, another worshipper.

"We will not let anyone interfere with our religious practices," declared cleric Inayatullah at Kabul's Pulakasthy mosque, one of the city's largest.

"What Rahman has done is wrong and he must be punished."

I don't know why Rahman converted in the first place 16 years ago. No doubt it had something to do with working for a aid-group (probably a Christian one) way back then, when he was a young man.

"What is wrong with Islam that he should want to convert".

I think they answered their own question with their next statements. What irks me is how many people claim Islam is a religion of "Peace and Tolerance", despite all the evidence to the contrary. "God has cleary stated that Christianity is forbidden in our land" ?

The statements above were not from "a minority of Radical Islamists". These are everyday people who place their religion above all else (including family apparently).

I also note that I haven't heard a whisper (so far) from any Islamic group outside of Afghanistan, on either side of the issue.

All of the people who have spoken out so far, in support of Mr Rahman, have been leaders of western countries like Canada, USA, Great Britian, Australia, Germany and Italy.

I wonder when the riots will start ?