I agree. A scary situation.

Let's wait and see; there's not much we can do at the moment. Most Western Governments have showed their 'concern' and raised their voices....to Karzai.

Don't know how long he will survive...

I really don't see why the US and the European countries think they will be able to 'control' that country and bring 'democracy' where all the others have failed.

My opninion: they will fail, sooner or later.

LaoPo

Mood hardens against Afghan convert

By Sanjoy Majumder

BBC News, Kabul

Abdul Rahman is refusing to return to Islam

Increasing international pressure over the case of Christian convert Abdul Rahman is forcing the Afghan government to play a careful balancing act between its Western allies and religious conservatives at home.

Under the interpretation of Islamic Sharia law on which Afghanistan's constitution is based, Mr Rahman faces the death penalty unless he reconverts to Islam.

"The Prophet Muhammad has said several times that those who convert from Islam should be killed if they refuse to come back," says Ansarullah Mawlafizada, the trial judge.

"Islam is a religion of peace, tolerance, kindness and integrity. That is why we have told him if he regrets what he did, then we will forgive him," he told the BBC News website.

'Deserves it'

The judge's comments are one indication of why President Hamid Karzai, who already has a reputation for being pro-Western, faces some difficult choices.

The president has yet to comment publicly on the trial but statements put out by his office point out that, while the government respects human rights and personal freedom, the country has an independent judicial system.

Who is America to tell us what to do? If Karzai listens to them there will be jihad Mohammed Qadir

Kabul resident

In practice, it is even more complicated.

The Afghan judiciary is dominated by religious conservatives, many with strong religious ties or backgrounds.

Many feel it will be difficult for the president and the government to confront the judiciary.

But the bigger problem confronting the president is that an overwhelming number of ordinary Afghans appear to believe Mr Rahman has erred and deserves to be executed.

At Friday prayers in mosques across the Afghan capital, the case of Abdul Rahman and the consequent international outcry is the hot topic of discussion and the centrepiece of sermons.

"We will not let anyone interfere with our religious practices," declared cleric Inayatullah at Kabul's Pulakasthy mosque, one of the city's largest.

"What Rahman has done is wrong and he must be punished."

Public mood

The issue has not reached the stage of street protests, as was the case recently during demonstrations against the publication in the West of cartoons satirising the Prophet Muhammad.

But there is little doubt that feelings run deep and can easily be inflamed.

The mood among worshippers in Kabul is hardening

"What is wrong with Islam that he should want to convert?" asks an agitated Abdul Zahid Payman.

"The courts should punish him and he should be put to death."

Few were willing to listen to the growing condemnation in the West.

"According to Islamic law he should be sentenced to death because God has clearly stated that Christianity is forbidden in our land," says Mohammed Qadir, another worshipper.

US President George Bush says he is "deeply troubled" by the case.

That cuts no ice with Mr Qadir.

"Who is America to tell us what to do? If Karzai listens to them there will be jihad (holy war)."

Western backers of the Afghan government are pressing to create a country that is a moderate and progressive democracy, able to turn its back on its Taleban past.

But analysts say they often forget that Afghanistan is a deeply conservative country rooted in tribal traditions.

"This is a Muslim country. The state is Muslim, people are Muslim 99%," says Judge Ansarullah.

"This is a very sensitive issue."

Afghanistan's constitution, written in 2004, enshrines the country as an Islamic state under which no law can contravene Islam.

But it also protects personal freedom and respects international human rights conventions.

"It is a deliberately ambiguous document which tries to paper over the cracks and contradictions of Afghanistan," says one Afghan law professor privately.

"But now the contradictions have risen to the surface

the views expressed by afghanis in this article seem to confirm to me that hardline islam and 21st century western thinking are totally incompatible.

with increasingly hardline thinking being adopted by many muslims living in the west , and with increasingly large populations of muslims in these countries , western governments should be considering what will be the future for christian countries and democratic governments should muslims ever attain a majority in these countries , say 50 or 60 years down the line , how would a muslim majority treat a christian minority ?

is this how a religion spreads , will the world really become islam in the future , just as mohammed , i believe , predicted , and when the world is islam , will there finally be world peace , also , i believe , just as mohammed prophesied.

should christian countries just sit back and let it happen , or should they be doing something to prevent the inexorable islamification of the world.

is history repeating itself ?

the views expressed by afghanis in this article seem to confirm to me that hardline islam and 21st century western thinking are totally incompatible.

with increasingly hardline thinking being adopted by many muslims living in the west , and with increasingly large populations of muslims in these countries , western governments should be considering what will be the future for christian countries and democratic governments should muslims ever attain a majority in these countries , say 50 or 60 years down the line , how would a muslim majority treat a christian minority ?

is this how a religion spreads , will the world really become islam in the future , just as mohammed , i believe , predicted , and when the world is islam , will there finally be world peace , also , i believe , just as mohammed prophesied.

should christian countries just sit back and let it happen , or should they be doing something to prevent the inexorable islamification of the world.

is history repeating itself ?

I can't judge about the USA and Australian laws (but they are becoming more strict; read the news about the new Immigration Laws in the US, right now), but the EU countries have already built their 'walls' around Europe to enormous heights.

It is, nowadays, extremely difficult for Non-Westerners to apply-and-get a permanent VISA, whether they want to come because of a future husband/wife or boy/girlfriend or any other -economical- reason.

These laws are sometimes so harsh that it hurts a lot of people (in the EU) who are truly and honestly in love with a partner from a Non-Western country, look at the Visa-section elsewhere on this forum.

But I fear the EU has no other option than to limit the constant stream of 'poor' people of -mainly- Islamic countries in Africa, Middle East and other parts of the world.

The past 10-15 years showed that the 2nd and 3rd generation born out of (Islamic) workers who came to Europe, 30-40 years ago, didn't 'adapt' enough to the Western lifestyle and also because the majority of them consumed low education and thus: no work and no or little income.

At the same time they are influenced by the hardliners of the Islam....result: Problems!!!

For the US and Canada the instream comes from Countries like The Caribbean/Middle- and South America, next to China, Phillippines etc. and not so much from the Islamic countries.

The positive effect of the, now drying-up, instream of newcomers will be that it is more difficult for the hardliners to influence and control the youth, also because the Governments keep a close eye on the 'leader-hardliners' often speaking from the Mosques.

LaoPo

Latest reports from Afghanistan are that the guy is being released due to "gaps in the evidence".

One of the judges even questioned whether or not this guy was a citizen of Afganistan ! Plus there are still questioning his mental state.

Sounds like a lot of squirming going on, as they try and firgure out a way to make this mess go away.

Rahman is supposedly being transferred from the overcrowded jail his is in, to the notorious Pol-E-Charki maximum security prison

Apparently his life was in danger from other inmates in the jail, so they move him to the prison that holds hundreds of Taliban and Al-Queda prisoners

He'll be oh so much safer there.

The case itself has been handed back to Afganistan's Attorney-General. It is possible that they could try this all over again in the near future (if Rahman survives that long).

The details of his actual release are being kept secret, as the rank-and-file populace of Kabul would (will) tear the guy limb from limb if they knew when and where he was being released.

Well, if Islam is a religion one can only convert to not from, then in the long run it is a threat to every free person on the planet.

I can't judge about the USA and Australian laws (but they are becoming more strict; read the news about the new Immigration Laws in the US, right now), but the EU countries have already built their 'walls' around Europe to enormous heights.

It is, nowadays, extremely difficult for Non-Westerners to apply-and-get a permanent VISA, whether they want to come because of a future husband/wife or boy/girlfriend or any other -economical- reason.

These laws are sometimes so harsh that it hurts a lot of people (in the EU) who are truly and honestly in love with a partner from a Non-Western country, look at the Visa-section elsewhere on this forum.

Well, that isn't true. It all depends on country.

There is no huge walls per say, for refugees (seeking asylum) or family-immigrants (making up 85% of the immigrants to Sweden). Family-immigration is allowed not only spuse, but mother, father, uncle, their kids and so on. So one family fleeing (or getting resident stay) has the ability to move a _lot_ of relatives. And that is just what has increased a lot the last 10 years.

Valid 'refugees' are less every year, family-immigration by resident immigrants have managed to increase the total amount of immigrants anyway.

UPDATE:

Abdul Rahman is FREE and in Italy !

"""Mr Rahman was freed on Monday after being deemed mentally unfit to stand trial on a charge of apostasy."""

"""In an interview with the Italian newspaper La Repubblica, Mr Rahman said: "I have done nothing to repent, I respect Afghan law as I respect Islam. But I chose to become a Christian, for myself, for my soul. It is not an offence." """

source:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4856748.stm

LaoPo

UPDATE:

Abdul Rahman is FREE and in Italy !

I'm not that big on religion, but no one can deny this guy's courage.

I'm not that big on religion, but no one can deny this guy's courage.

Well, he did hide his conversion for 16 years, and would have hidden it still if it wasn't for his family "outing" him.

How ever, once he was outed, he did stand by his convictions, knowing he faced death.

The easy thing would have been to recant his Christian faith, reassert his belief in Islam, and then blame the whole affair on the West (he was "converted" while working with a Western aid group 16 years ago).

But he didn't, and as a result has lost any chance of living a normal life in his home, and he can forget ever getting custody of his two daughters now.

I wonder now what he will do after he gets to Italy ?

How ever, once he was outed, he did stand by his convictions, knowing he faced death.

That's pretty brave from where I'm standing.