Montclair Wine

[LivinginKata]

This topic has been a delight to read. It's very very unusual for any discussion topic to last 21 pages without the topic turning nasty. Let's try to continue this topic. I enjoy reading but have nothing much to contribute as I have no wine knowledge. I do enjoy a glass of wine with a meal at a restaurant, but usually of the house variety which can range from piss poor to quite good.

[eezergood]

Hopefull a few more member can chip in.......

[xylophone]

Quote Jip99: "As LivinginKata suggests, this has become a wine appreciation thread - again, a long way from the thread title and OP.

Maybe a new thread, or re-titling, to "Appreciation of wines in Thailand" would be appropriate. Nothing wrong with a debate about such matters.

Nonetheless, I am not the only one to identify wine snobbery and please don't try to say that there isn't a p!ssing contest going on with some posters.

I will continue to quaff my Mont Clare fruit drink in Thailand - on the grounds of value - and save the Chateauneuf du Pape and Rioja Reserva for Cambodia where I can pay a sensible price".

I agree with most of your comments and a few times posters (me included) have suggested a name change such as that which you have suggested.

I also have to agree with "eezergood" that wines ranging from 300 baht have been discussed without denigrating them or those who choose to drink them (apart from one or two early on).

Wine snobbery basically covers the act of "denigrating the wines or those who choose to drink them" and I don't see much of that on this thread. If anything the latter part of the thread deals with knowing what you are drinking and the CORRECT labelling of such.

By all means drink that which you choose, after all we are all different in the way we enjoy our wines and long may that continue.

Personally I will endeavour to seek out "value" wines at the lower end (and have posted about many of them) and yet still try to enjoy wines at the upper end when I can afford them.

BUT please don't try to fob me off with wines which purport to be made entirely from grapes, when they are not. That is not wine snobbery, but just wanting to know exactly what I am drinking.

[Colonel_Mustard]

Wines should be clear as to what they are made from but wine does not have to be made from grapes. It can be made from other fruits too.

As long as it is clear as to what it contains, then I don't see a problem.

[xylophone]

Wines should be clear as to what they are made from but wine does not have to be made from grapes. It can be made from other fruits too.

As long as it is clear as to what it contains, then I don't see a problem.

Agree with everything you say Colonel and I think your last sentence says it all........"as long as it is clear as to what it contains, then I don't see a problem".

I repeat, as long as it is CLEAR as to what it contains, but the problem being discussed here is that some wines do not make it CLEAR what they contain and are marketed as being from named varieties of grapes, yet "hidden" in the small print is a clue that some other fruit/alcohol is added.

This is deceptive and in reality violates the right of the consumer to know what they are buying and drinking.

[GrantSmith]

xylophone makes the point again; if you want to drink Montclair, Jump Yard, Belleville, Berri Estate, Mar Y Sol and others of their ilk go right ahead.

It's moreso to do with, as xylophone pointed towards, that the marketing side of things is not really playing by the rules (and yes we can all say "this is Thailand, there are no rules bla bla bla" but that's not good enough).

It - in my opinion - tarnishes the reputation of the country that it purports to be from and instills a mindset on the consumer that said country produces cheap products so how dare they attempt to charge any more than $10 a bottle here in Thailand.

[xylophone]

Following in the Montclair tradition, I have discovered another little anomaly, although it does clearly state the contents on the box.

It is a 3 L box of wine under the name of, "Bodegas Valley" dry red, and the packaging is almost exactly like the Chilean red "Bodegas Centenarius".

The anomaly being that the wine is actually labelled, "Product of Australia", obviously not paying too much attention to the origins of its name (Spanish). It is produced and 'bottled' by Three Corners Vineyards Pty, Australia 2680.

Now here is something which I do applaud because it states on the box, "Made with Cabernet Sauvignon and Merlot grapes and fruit juice...............".

So here is a product which is made from grapes and fruit juice and clearly states this, and it also states fairly clearly on the box that it is a, "Fruit Wine Product".

Kudos to them for stating this quite clearly, and now anyone who wants to drink it will know exactly what is in it, and that it is a drink made to a price point.

Another interesting thing is that this is actually produced in Australia, not bottled in Vietnam or Thailand, and the fruit juice is added to the mix in Australia by the looks of things, following on from something which GrantSmith mentioned to in one of his posts. So it looks like this trend of mixing wine and fruit juice is not just something which is being practised in Thailand, but now has roots in Australia.

Perhaps that has always been the case and I have not been aware of it...............or is this just a recent phenomenon?

[GrantSmith]

Following in the Montclair tradition, I have discovered another little anomaly, although it does clearly state the contents on the box.

It is a 3 L box of wine under the name of, "Bodegas Valley" dry red, and the packaging is almost exactly like the Chilean red "Bodegas Centenarius".

The anomaly being that the wine is actually labelled, "Product of Australia", obviously not paying too much attention to the origins of its name (Spanish). It is produced and 'bottled' by Three Corners Vineyards Pty, Australia 2680.

Now here is something which I do applaud because it states on the box, "Made with Cabernet Sauvignon and Merlot grapes and fruit juice...............".

So here is a product which is made from grapes and fruit juice and clearly states this, and it also states fairly clearly on the box that it is a, "Fruit Wine Product".

Kudos to them for stating this quite clearly, and now anyone who wants to drink it will know exactly what is in it, and that it is a drink made to a price point.

Another interesting thing is that this is actually produced in Australia, not bottled in Vietnam or Thailand, and the fruit juice is added to the mix in Australia by the looks of things, following on from something which GrantSmith mentioned to in one of his posts. So it looks like this trend of mixing wine and fruit juice is not just something which is being practised in Thailand, but now has roots in Australia.

Perhaps that has always been the case and I have not been aware of it...............or is this just a recent phenomenon?

I wouldn't say it's new exactly, possibly being going on for a number of years. In my opinion it's being highlighted - here especially - due to companies marketing and referring to the product as "Wine" as opposed to "Fruit Wine".

This is relatively unheard of in the western wine world due to trade rules which would largely prohibit this kind of thing. The cost difference between doing it in Australia and doing it in country could be quite large, I would presume it more cost effective if done in country though.

If the product above is marketed as being Fruit Wine all power to them.

[xylophone]

Well I tried the "Bodegas Valley" dry red.......because it was there!!

A very poor drink which I rate well below Montclair. It was like red cloured water with just a hint of something in it and offered nothing on the palate, no aromas or taste for that matter.

IMO this would be the worst of all of the low-end drinkers I've tried, and if I had to put one at the top of the list of these particular drinks, irrespective of what other fruit they contain, then I would say that the "Jump Yards" red from the Wine Connection is about the best of the bunch.

After that experience, I have to get back to a top end wine and I have a craving for a big, fruit driven Aussie Red or a Valpolicella Ripasso!

[eezergood]

Perhaps, if any of you boys/girls are keen we could break bread and share a glass or 2..........

[GrantSmith]

Perhaps, if any of you boys/girls are keen we could break bread and share a glass or 2..........

Of the good stuff? Or is it going to be science experiment and we dissect the fruit wine..

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[eezergood]

Perhaps, if any of you boys/girls are keen we could break bread and share a glass or 2..........

Of the good stuff? Or is it going to be science experiment and we dissect the fruit wine..

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

How about this,.....

[GrantSmith]

Perhaps, if any of you boys/girls are keen we could break bread and share a glass or 2..........

Of the good stuff? Or is it going to be science experiment and we dissect the fruit wine..

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

How about this,.....

Pic's a bit small but that looks almost like a ribena bottle But I guess if you just add some grapes and a bit of grape alcohol you can call it Montclair

[eezergood]

BuckfAst tonic wine, google it

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[GrantSmith]

Hahahah... I wish I hadn't... Montclair's almost looking palatable in comparison

[jocko]

Scots wouldn't have to Google Buckie it's nearly as popular as Irn Brew a wine made from girders.

Take that you wine snobs

[xylophone]

It just goes to show that you can learn something new every day.

I opened a bottle of 2007 Primo Estate Shale Stone Shiraz (McLaren Vale) and at 14.5% it was a big wine in all respects, and it did not disappoint. However I noticed something "different" about the cork, in that it was "sealed" at both ends by something akin to a clear varnish/resin, although it was still flexible.

I have never seen this before, and I can only assume that it is the winemaker's attempt to be able to limit/prevent tainting of the wine by a faulty cork.

When a wine is "corked" or tainted it is the result of something called 2-4-6 Trichloroanisole (known as TCA) which is thought to be brought about by the process of sterilising the cork and a reaction with mould or the like already being present inside the cork. Sterilising used to be done using chlorine, and this was thought to be the culprit, so sterilising is now mostly always done by hydrogen peroxide, however it has not completely stopped some wines from becoming tainted.

Various other reasons for this tainting have been under the spotlight, including cork from trees being too young and various irrigation methods. And it has been pointed out that TCA can be present in the bark of some trees, in minute amounts, to begin with.

There have been various estimates over time as to what percentage of wine has been spoilt by TCA and at one time it was thought about 10% of wines could be affected. This is one of the reasons why the screwtop/Stelvin closure gained such support from certain areas, because it just doesn't happen with these closures.

So Primo estate looks like they have decided to do something a little different to prevent TCA spoiling the wine. Well the wine was 7 years old and there was absolutely nothing wrong with it, in fact it was great. And it does seem to lay to rest one of the old chestnuts as regards corks, whereby some supporters of corks argued that they could never be gotten rid of because they allowed a certain amount of air to permeate the cork which helped with the ageing of the wine.

This was dismissed by many as wishful thinking, especially as over many decades, wines have been sealed with lead or plastic capsules, which cover the cork, thereby stopping any air getting at the cork anyway. So this extra "sealing" of the cork at both ends would have almost certainly stopped anything getting through the cork, air or TCA!!

Good on Primo Estate for trying something different/new.

[GrantSmith]

Primo Estate is a very underrated winery. The cellar door itself is quite stunning in a modern contemporary way.

As for the cork, it sounds like a synthetic cork, a craze that was going around about that time, but without a picture to confirm I'll be stabbing in the dark.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[xylophone]

Primo Estate is a very underrated winery. The cellar door itself is quite stunning in a modern contemporary way.

As for the cork, it sounds like a synthetic cork, a craze that was going around about that time, but without a picture to confirm I'll be stabbing in the dark.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Hi GS, no it's not a synthetic cork, but a real one and good quality (and long).

Have seen many types of "cork" and this is the genuine article........with that little added extra coating at both ends. IMO it makes good sense!

[grumpyoldman]

"which is thought to be brought about by the process of sterilising the cork and a reaction with mould or the like already being present inside the cork."

How can there be molds when the cork is made out of plastic?

[xylophone]

"which is thought to be brought about by the process of sterilising the cork and a reaction with mould or the like already being present inside the cork."

How can there be molds when the cork is made out of plastic?

Errmmmm...............TCA affects corks which are made out of cork bark, which is still the number 1 method of sealing wine bottles.

Obviously it doesn't affect plastic corks.

[grumpyoldman]

"which is thought to be brought about by the process of sterilising the cork and a reaction with mould or the like already being present inside the cork."

How can there be molds when the cork is made out of plastic?

Errmmmm...............TCA affects corks which are made out of cork bark, which is still the number 1 method of sealing wine bottles.

Obviously it doesn't affect plastic corks.

Right.

So what is confusing about your post #527, is whether the cork you describe is all synthetic (plastic), or cork with plastic seals on the ends.

Don't mean to be troublesome, just sort of got lost there.

[xylophone]

"which is thought to be brought about by the process of sterilising the cork and a reaction with mould or the like already being present inside the cork."

How can there be molds when the cork is made out of plastic?

Errmmmm...............TCA affects corks which are made out of cork bark, which is still the number 1 method of sealing wine bottles.

Obviously it doesn't affect plastic corks.

Right.

So what is confusing about your post #527, is whether the cork you describe is all synthetic (plastic), or cork with plastic seals on the ends.

Don't mean to be troublesome, just sort of got lost there.

Fair comment about the cork, and reading it again, I suppose it could have been a little confusing.

Obviously I didn't portray my findings that well, because the "sealant" (for want of better terminology) on each end of the (real) cork looked very similar to it having been painted with a clear varnish, although flexible, so not plastic per se.

Have never seen this before, hence the post about it.

[GrantSmith]

Primo Estate is a very underrated winery. The cellar door itself is quite stunning in a modern contemporary way.

As for the cork, it sounds like a synthetic cork, a craze that was going around about that time, but without a picture to confirm I'll be stabbing in the dark.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Hi GS, no it's not a synthetic cork, but a real one and good quality (and long).

Have seen many types of "cork" and this is the genuine article........with that little added extra coating at both ends. IMO it makes good sense!

Hmmm... Then you've got me on that one... Was looking around the Primo Estate website, seem that they've moved onto Stelvin for most of their portfolio now with the exception of the Super Premiums which is still under cork, I'll have to have a look into this next time I'm down in the Vale.

I know the boys from Samuel's Gorge get their corks from Spain (not cheap either mind you) and they're quite impressive bits of kit. Not sealed as far as I can tell but they do have a oily type feel to them.

And it's really quite flexible which is great for those who aren't used to opening bottles of wine nowadays or when it's the 5th bottle of the night

[xylophone]

Primo Estate is a very underrated winery. The cellar door itself is quite stunning in a modern contemporary way.

As for the cork, it sounds like a synthetic cork, a craze that was going around about that time, but without a picture to confirm I'll be stabbing in the dark.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Hi GS, no it's not a synthetic cork, but a real one and good quality (and long).

Have seen many types of "cork" and this is the genuine article........with that little added extra coating at both ends. IMO it makes good sense!

Hmmm... Then you've got me on that one... Was looking around the Primo Estate website, seem that they've moved onto Stelvin for most of their portfolio now with the exception of the Super Premiums which is still under cork, I'll have to have a look into this next time I'm down in the Vale.

I know the boys from Samuel's Gorge get their corks from Spain (not cheap either mind you) and they're quite impressive bits of kit. Not sealed as far as I can tell but they do have a oily type feel to them.

IMG_3808.JPG

And it's really quite flexible which is great for those who aren't used to opening bottles of wine nowadays or when it's the 5th bottle of the night

Good, any feedback which advances knowledge has to be good.

The "oily feel" to the corks you mention, GS, could well be paraffin oil and/or silicone as these are used to help seal some corks and to allow "easy" extraction.

[xylophone]

I have just come across this, which is an extract from an article in a Pattaya a newspaper regarding cask wine, "The best selling box wine in Thailand is Mont Clair red or white from Siam Winery. Packaged in a 5 liter box and sold at about Bt1000 it's a clever blend South African wines with an addition of fruit juice, other than grape, which permits substantially lower excise tax rates".

So this has been known about for some time, but rarely seen in print.

Apart from the Montclair wine, the others which I believe contain fruit juice, and are available in Thailand, are: – Cedar creek (casks); Castle Creek (Australian, casks); Mar Y Sol; Berri Estates; Peter Yella; Moute; Belleville; Bodegas valley (Australian); Jump Yards and one other which escapes me, which I have only seen at the Deli in Patong (any I've missed?).

As I have said before, no problem with this as long as one clearly knows what one is getting, and of the selection above, I still think the Jump Yards has a jump on the others!!!

[GrantSmith]

'Fresco' I think it's called, but it clearly states that it's a fruit wine... Available anywhere from 7-11 to Tesco and Tops...

Found another 5 star hotel here in BKK flogging Jump Yards off as wine, disappointing to say the least...

[GrantSmith]

To illustrate the point of truth in advertising.. I snapped this today at Swampy

All four wines are labelled as they should be, obviously one of them is wine but the other three are - correctly - labelled as Fruit Wine on the front of the label.

[xylophone]

I see that Montclair 5L boxes have gone down in price (in Big C Patong anyway) to around 860 baht.............perhaps the Army have intervened to get the price down as part of the "Bring happiness to the Thai people" campaign!

[xylophone]

I see that Montclair 5L boxes have gone down in price (in Big C Patong anyway) to around 860 baht.............perhaps the Army have intervened to get the price down as part of the "Bring happiness to the Thai people" campaign!

OOPS.............that was a short burst of happiness, as the price is back up to 969 baht now!!