Secret no-fly list causes Bangkok holiday nightmare

[theajarn]

This is a travesty of justice. If USA has any reason to suspect this guy:

1) He should not have been allowed to leave USA

2) Any possibility of terrorism could have been neutralized by USA requiring extra security scanning of individual and belongings.

People are too accepting of the infringement of civil liberties by USA since the 911 incident.

@ 2: he could easily pick up a suitcase that was not originally the one he came in with, no?

Just sayin' ...

[stoli]

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kcal9.com

I wonder why he has the potential for the no-fly list?

Got me stumped ...

.

IS this his REAL pic?

If so, I guess would spook many.

I don't even come close to being a bigot, in my opinion, but I must say, I would not be comfortable having this guy sitting next to me on a plane.

Edited July 1, 2013 by Scott

[theajarn]

Reading all the posts here from Americans defending "their way", makes me proud to be European!

But you will have to admit that paranoia and ignorance can be very entertaining.

Yeah, I wrote to the FBI that the Boston bomber might've been someone I flew in with, coming from UAE ... the way the guy went from one loo to the next, spending a considerable amount of time in each... hey, if it saves lives...

[craigt3365]

Just wait for them to racially profile white men traveling from and to Thailand and giving them extra checks for child porn making them feel like criminals and wait for ages ect. Bet the tune here would be totally different. Its all fun and games when the rights of others are infringed upon but once you are the one all hell breaks loose.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--

Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--

Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--

Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

Martin Niemoller

They've been doing that for years. You've never had your laptop searched? Your camera? It does happen.

[harsh4]

I think the whole world is very lucky that you don't have the qualifications to be in charge! Why does it matter what someone LOOKS like people are still people and deserve respect from others!!

Nah......someone who dresses and looks like a terrorist deserves suspicion before respect.

Terrorists don't consider you to be a person, so why would you say people are still people?

Suspicion before respect.

for today's day and age, he has the 'wrong' looks. Suspicion before respect... maybe (indeed yes just as erring on the side of caution maight be wise)... but it seems there is a murky methodology involved in the questioning and detention. It took 4 days for a US official to show up ?? If he was a real hard ass terrorist, you let him float around for 4 days ? And he was perfectly within his rights to demand a lawyer. Why wasn't one provided to him by the US authorities ? It does seem he was on a 'no fly' list... but once you nail somebody, why isn't there a clear course of action that should be pursued ? Strange too that he was on 'no fly' list yet could fly out of the US without being questioned. The statement from the US interrogator to the thai authorities that "we don't care what happens to him, do whatever you like to him" is truly odd... this kid is clearly very bright academically (degree in neurobiology) and currently in medical school...it is not so uncommon for such students to seek something higher and have a 'hole in their hearts' as it were... who knows how 'brainwashed' he might be at this stage or what radical ideas he might or might not have, but being treated the way he was, he would surely lean towards becoming radical and anti US... not sure this might be the best way to tackle seemingly 'half baked' cases... I support full and thorough checks and investigations into travellers who could pose a security risk, but random aggressive attitudes towards one and all might not be the best way... dunno...

[animatic]

Why would a med student, taking a year off, visiting Pakistan and Indonesia, joining a "conservative" Islam mission, draw suspicion?

I saw no reference to his taking a year off to go to Pakistan and Indonesia,

only Thailand is mentioned in the article.

Certainly his appearance would make security give him more of a look than a

business suited guy with an American Tourister carry on. Why, well because,

of the general aura of hate between segments of BOTH sides of these sects overlayed on nations.

Sad, but logical. Security is not about being PC, but about security.

I can't question the need for a no - fly list, we need it,

I was booked on the plane with the shoe bomber from Paris years back.

That they kept this man wandering around swampy for 4 days, is ridiculous,

if he was a really terrorist he would have been scooped up and hotelled fast.

Where was Thai airport security?

And then 4 days late,r when the locked him up for wanting a lawyer is reprehensible.

But he wasn't on USA soil, so his rights to a lawyer under USA law don't

apply in the same way, but detention for requesting a lawyer during questioning

is also beyond the pale.

Edited July 1, 2013 by animatic

[theajarn]

.

kcal9.com

I wonder why he has the potential for the no-fly list?

Got me stumped ...

.

IS this his REAL pic?

If so, I guess would spook many.

I don't even come close to being a bigot, in my opinion, but I must say, I would not be comfortable having this guy sitting next to me on a plane.

Neither would I... I mean seriously... there could be something/s _living_ in that thing!

Funny he's all clean-shaven (head included) on his FB page.. and he must have 'updated' his FB page too... removed all the jihad stuff I guess...

Edited July 1, 2013 by Scott

[chooka]

I was a frequent flyer. My name is on a "no fly list". A lot of common names are. You learn to get to the airport early because there will be additional screening and questions. The security guys and gals have a job to do, And i support them. I let them ask their questions and be satisfied that i'm not the particular person on the "no fly list".

At the end , they usually thank me for my patience, and i thank them for their vigilance and hard work.

The entire "ordeal" can last 5extra minutes on a good day, 15 on a bad day.

No problem.

Yes you do have the right to not answer any questions.

And they have the right not to let you board while they check out if you re the particular person on the list.

With your help, 5 to 15 minutes (my experience)

With your silence 5 to 15 days (his experience)

The choice is yours.

Lastly

the dude appears to be a traditional Muslim

and acting uncooperatively, and not willing to talk without a lawyer

simply to board a plane.

What did he expect? or was he just trying to make some news?

I think I must be on one of those lists also. I fly in and out of Australia every month (for the last 5 yrs) and never had a problem before. Now I seem to get pulled aside into a room every time (last 7 trips) for questions and a full thorough luggage search. I get the feeling they think I am running drugs I have even got to know one of the guys on a 1st name basis. It is sought of like, G'day Steve how's the missus and kids? O.K catch you next month.

Edited July 1, 2013 by chooka

[deecee10]

It's a fact of life today, that if you fit the profile, and I don't mean just because you dress and look like (and presumably are) a muslim, then you're under suspicion.

If you're a young muslim who travels to places where terrorist activity is being fermented, for reasons which are not particularly clear, then you will end up on the radar.

What else would you expect?

[XDoodlebugger]

It applies to those who also dress with long dred locks,and Bob Marley shirts there luggage is usually subject to more intense look as they may have some weed

It used to apply to me, in my younger years I would always get hammered before and during flights, I would step off the airplane in the US from where ever looking like death warmed over, sweating and with the shakes and with passport stamps from Yemen, Amsterdam, BKK among others. I would get questioned a lot. Fast forward to 2007-Present and I travel a lot on business and usually in the front of the plane. They don't say boo anymore.

Of course there was the time just after 911 when I was flying SQ in first from the US to BKK and it seemed every stop coming and going I was being checked very thoroughly. At one of the last airports I was pulled over on the bridgeway for a random search while two guys in full Arab dress walked past untouched. I snapped and couldn't keep my mouth shut asking when was the last time a fat white guy in first class hijacked a plane anyway? I was lucky they laughed at me.

[deecee10]

I was a frequent flyer. My name is on a "no fly list". A lot of common names are. You learn to get to the airport early because there will be additional screening and questions. The security guys and gals have a job to do, And i support them. I let them ask their questions and be satisfied that i'm not the particular person on the "no fly list".

At the end , they usually thank me for my patience, and i thank them for their vigilance and hard work.

The entire "ordeal" can last 5extra minutes on a good day, 15 on a bad day.

No problem.

Yes you do have the right to not answer any questions.

And they have the right not to let you board while they check out if you re the particular person on the list.

With your help, 5 to 15 minutes (my experience)

With your silence 5 to 15 days (his experience)

The choice is yours.

Lastly

the dude appears to be a traditional Muslim

and acting uncooperatively, and not willing to talk without a lawyer

simply to board a plane.

What did he expect? or was he just trying to make some news?

I think I must be on one of those lists also. I fly in and out of Australia every month (for the last 5 yrs) and never had a problem before. Now I seem to get pulled aside into a room every time (last 7 trips) for questions and a full thorough luggage search. I get the feeling they think I am running drugs I have even got to know one of the guys on a 1st name basis. It is sought of like, G'day Steve how's the missus and kids? O.K catch you next month.

That's what you get if you move between Thailand and the hostile tribal lands of St. Kilda, on a regular basis.

[OzMick]

I think I must be on one of those lists also. I fly in and out of Australia every month (for the last 5 yrs) and never had a problem before. Now I seem to get pulled aside into a room every time (last 7 trips) for questions and a full thorough luggage search. I get the feeling they think I am running drugs I have even got to know one of the guys on a 1st name basis. It is sought of like, G'day Steve how's the missus and kids? O.K catch you next month.

Amazed you lasted 5 years. I was doing 3 or 4 trips a year for a while and getting everything but the rubber glove. After a red-eye, I was silly enough to answer the usual question with "No, I got my girlfriend's pimp to pack it for me." Luckily, the guy had a sense of humour and let me change it, and strangely, they eased up on me after that (might not be connected!!!)

[jamhar]

Edit

animatic

Why would a med student, taking a year off, visiting Pakistan and Indonesia, joining a "conservative" Islam mission, draw suspicion?

I saw no reference to his taking a year off to go to Pakistan and Indonesia,

only Thailand is mentioned in the article.

"Motiwala, whose parents are of Pakistani origin, was not told why he might be on the list. A likely possibility, however, is his contact with Tablighi Jamaat, a conservative Muslim missionary movement based in South Asia.

He took leave from medical school last year, traveled to Pakistan to visit relatives and went on to Indonesia to work with the group, whose members go around the world proselytizing for Islam."

Seattle Times Article

Edited July 1, 2013 by jamhar

[Credo]

Nobody has a 'right to fly'. It is like a Driver's License, it is a privilege, not a right. If the guy didn't want to answer questions, then he gets to sit in the transit area, I guess. I would have let them ask the questions first and then I would have decided whether or not to answer.

I've been pulled out for special screening on a number of occasions. If you cooperate, you get done reasonably quickly. If not, it can be less pleasant.

Of course, when the screener came walking in with a pair of rubber gloves in his hand, I suddenly felt like giving him a lot less grief!

[lovetotravel]

Seems El Al has had success with racial profiling for years:

Potential airline passengers might like to know which national airline was recently named by the magazine Global Traveler as the world's most secure; which airline is so confident of the security procedures at its main hub airport that it still permits passengers to board with bottles and tubes of liquid brought from home; and which airline uses racial profiling.

The answer of course is El Al, the Hebrew phrase meaning 'To The Skies', which flew its inaugural flight in September 1948 and since the 1972 massacre at Ben Gurion airport near Tel Aviv in which 26 people were murdered, has suffered no successful attacks. Almost all attempts which did take place were carried out on foreign soil (the 1976 Entebbe hijacking was the work of terrorists who boarded the El Al plane with their weapons during a stopover in Athens.)

................

In London, Philip Baum, editor of Aviation Security International and managing director of Green Light Limited, an airline security company, argued that the current approach was indeed outdated.

Although he added that profiling based on race and religion was counter-productive and should be avoided, he concluded firmly: "Reluctance to distinguish travellers on other grounds ­ such as their general appearance or their mannerisms ­ is not only foolhardy, but dangerous." ·

Read more: http://www.theweek.co.uk/politics/17285/air-security-rest-world-needs-learn-el-al#ixzz2XlP97Wz4

[diz]

There is surely a lesson here. If you look and dress like Bin Laden, fly to Pakistan and Indonesia meeting with fundamentalist Islam groups like Tablighi Jamaat, there is a very good chance your freedom to travel will be curtailed. If he looked and acted like the Californian med student he claims to be he would have passed through Bangkok without drama. His choice.

[snip]

If you have to act a certain way to not get detained (without committing a crime) than we have 1984 already. What is the next station? Detaining people who don't belief in god? Non Aryans? Non Americans?

[connda]

.

kcal9.com

I wonder why he has the potential for the no-fly list?

Got me stumped ...

.

Actually he's probably lucky that he didn't get the "special" C-130 flight to Gitmo. Just saying...

Edited July 1, 2013 by Scott

[sydneyjed]

Why would he not answer questions without a lawyer present.

Because you as a citizen have the right to remain silent and anything( anything)can be used in evidence against you...so yes in this day and age he was just exercising that right as even police do when being questioned themselves!!

[hanuman2543]

It is your right to answer any questions only in front of a judge and there it is your right to have a lawyer present and there is nothing the police can do to get around it. If you do so it is your own decision, but you do not have to.

And if you are questioned in Thailand by an US Justice Department official you should do the same like he did. As far as I know they have no legal rights here, they are foreigners here like you and me.

But the wait to see a judge can be a bitch. I've heard on your first anniversary they give you a cupcake with a candle.

The police in Ger can detain you for 24h, after that appearing before a judge is mandatory or they have to let you go

[jackr]

Why does it matter what someone LOOKS like people are still people and deserve respect from others!!

Nice PC response. You'll go far on this forum.

Where have you been the last 10 years? Read his background. If it turned out he made it to your home town and blew up your family, would you then not be slightly miffed at him not being checked at some point? It kind of stinks the way he was treated--possibly being innocent 'n all--but, as others, he hasn't done himself any favours really.

[thaibeachlovers]

Can anyone enlighten me as to why you would wonder the airport terminal for four days waiting to be questioned,why did he not stay in a hotel ?

Was he allowed out of the terminal to do so? Anyway, would he have had enough money? Whenever I came to the end of my holidays I would never have had enough for an unexpected hotel stay. I relied on travel insurance to cover me- did he have travel insurance?

[deecee10]

The radicalisation of young Muslim men from Western countries eg UK & USA who travel to Pakistan and the border region with Afghanistan and then return with these redical views, is a genuine security problem for the West.

The clash between individual civil rights and national and international security is an absolute minefield (if you pardon the pun) but it's there.

There's no perfect solution to this but expediency and perhaps common sense should tell young Muslims not to put themselves into situations which find them ticking too many security service boxes.

[jackr]

Why would a med student, taking a year off, visiting Pakistan and Indonesia, joining a "conservative" Islam mission, draw suspicion?

I saw no reference to his taking a year off to go to Pakistan and Indonesia,

only Thailand is mentioned in the article.

He was en route from Indonesia apparently, where he'd previously met up with Tablighi Jamaat.

Seattle Times

[barrybankruad]

If you think that the US methods of trying to combat aircraft terrorism are 'overboard' then I suggest you don't fly out of Israel. When screening passengers they tend to be less 'hands on' than the Americans, relying less on physical searches but concentrating on rigorous profiling. Names, appearance, religion, nationality, as well as such intelligence as may have been garnered determine whether an individual is permitted to board an aircraft. Despite Israel being the foremost terrorist target in the World the only successful hijacking of an Israeli aircraft was forty-five years ago.

[Rust Never Sleeps]

Why would he not answer questions without a lawyer present.

You gotta be joking,do you actually believe what your govt.tells you.I believe the exact opposite what polly's tell me and am right more often than not.A lawyer will explain your rights,the govt.will tell you the bare minimum,if that.

And do you believe everything a lawyer tells you.

[OzMick]

It is your right to answer any questions only in front of a judge and there it is your right to have a lawyer present and there is nothing the police can do to get around it. If you do so it is your own decision, but you do not have to.

And if you are questioned in Thailand by an US Justice Department official you should do the same like he did. As far as I know they have no legal rights here, they are foreigners here like you and me.

But the wait to see a judge can be a bitch. I've heard on your first anniversary they give you a cupcake with a candle.

The police in Ger can detain you for 24h, after that appearing before a judge is mandatory or they have to let you go

That's nice, if you happen to be in Ger. Remember to tell them that if you are stopped in Santiago, Mogadishu or Tashkent (no implication intended re any city).

[geriatrickid]

Why would he not answer questions without a lawyer present.

Isn't that his constitutional right?

Funny how all the law and order types want to throw the law out of the window when it doesn't suit them.

What constitutional right? He was transiting in Thailand. Thai law applies.

[Torrens54]

.

kcal9.com

I wonder why he has the potential for the no-fly list?

Got me stumped ...

.

Nice looking everyday sort of chap, just what you'd feel happy about having on your flight. (Is that a Tick in his eye?) Didn't help himself when he refused to answer questions from the US Officials called to assist him but I FEEL so sorry for him, perhaps Obama can sort him out when he (Obama) gets back from his 100-million-dollar tax-payer trip. Now I feel sorry for American Taxpayers too.

Edited July 1, 2013 by Scott

[jamhar]

Reading all the posts here from Americans defending "their way", makes me proud to be European!

Proud of???

[geriatrickid]

Why would he not answer questions without a lawyer present.

it is every one right not to do so

any thing you say CAN and WILL be held against ou in a court of law so better keep your mouth shut

Is that a Law in Thailand?

You know for sure?

Or is that just a popular grab from an American or UK police show?

EDIT ... not saying that it's not good advice ... but is it Thai Law?

.

He was not being questioned by a Thai official. It is the law when you are being questioned by a US Government official.

No. It is not the law.

Constitutional restraints placed on domestic law enforcement officials do not limit foreign law enforcement officials or United States officials operating outside United States boundaries.

Reference:

United States v. Balsys, 524 U.S. 666 (1998) (addressing the application of the Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination when the prosecution feared is foreign rather than domestic); United States v. Alvarez-Machain, 504 U.S. 655 (1992) (evaluating the ability of United States law enforcement officials to kidnap a suspect from Mexico);United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez, 494 U.S. 259 (1990) (dealing with the search and seizure of evidence by Drug Enforcement Agency agents in Mexico).