Why I’m worth it: in defense of the dowry

[RigPig]

So is attacking a man with a Samrai sword over a cab fare good or bad / right or wrong?

EVERYONE in this world has some semblance of right and wrong, question a Thai and ask WHY? And you will get no reply.

They are quite willing to accept all of the things Western societies have bought to them but not willing to accept moral responsibility.

I've said this before there are no words in the Thai language for responsibility or consequences, but believe me they understand it!

[Xonax]

There's no believable defense of the practice.

The western custom is much closer to reality: the bride's family presents a dowry to the groom's family for providing them with a protector and source of livelihood for their daughter.

It's especially irksome that any family would expect a bride price when the daughter has already produced one or more children who will become the financial responsibility of the new husband. Thai men want nothing to do with such a situation, and the only taker is often a foreigner with a more generous attitude toward other people's children.

Sin sot deserves to die off as a cultural norm. It may have a traditional function among Thais, but makes no sense to those of us who aren't born to the culture. I certainly don't equate gifts of money with respect, and I doubt many Westerners do.

Although I understand to a certain degree the hesitation (or refusal) of a non Thai (european) man to pay a dowry, I resent the remarks made here, as they show utter disrespect to Thai culture. Let's face it - nobody is forced to live in Thailand, to marry a Thai girl, or retire here. Obviously there are parts of the Thai culture which are foreign, or even offensive to non Thais. We, non Thais, have to accept that some of our culture may be as strange and even offensive to Thais and make up our minds, do we or don't we, are we prepared, or aren't we, to accept Thai culture if we want to connect to Thailand or Thais. If we are not capable of doing so let us draw the consequences, instead of permanently offending the Thais and their culture.

I personally, have a Thai wife (for over 25 years) and two daughters, who were born in Europe, but we have been living here for over 10 years now. Both our daughters are over 20 and when my wife told me that she expects our future sons in law to pay a dowry, my immediate reaction was " I am NOT prepared to sell my daughters" ("we don't need it, and even if we did, I wouldn't do it"). After my wife explained the whole cultural background to me, I accepted this. The main part is that if the bridegroom in not prepared tp pay a dowry, he, according to Thai culture, does NOt respect either his bride nor her family. If one looks around the world, or even back to our own history, there are, or used to be, worse cultural customs than a dowry. One last thing. Although we Europeans are not used to pay our future parents in law, it is normal for us to buy Jewellery (diamond rings for the engagement, as an example) for our brides. So we also have our customs, which come close to a dowry, don't we?

An excellent response. I will marry my Thai lady soon and will pay a dowry and conform with Thai tradition and culture. The simple reason being her family is Thai and this is where we live. For those of you who don't like to conform with this culture, just don't marry a Thai and it might be better still if you don't live here if it upsets you so much. Oh just so you can really get your nuts in an uproar my bride is an ex bar girl!

Good luck bro bra!

I truly hope, that you know what you are doing, but I am seriously afraid, that this will be your first bar girl marriage. Many of us have been there and done that and most of us, will never make that same mistake again.

When marrying a bar girl, please consider the Dowry to be only a downpayment. Montly installments will also have to be paid, for her lost working oppotunities, or else she will have to cheat on you to make money.

[dudu]

In defence of bar girls,they are more fun and offer a great future and are very clever with money...lol, they just need a lot of attention and energy or they will leave, better than the boring village girl who sits at home,no conversation, playing on her phone boring as hell, waiting for you to come home at night, while you go out seeing the girls you should have married in the first place... in the end, the village girl gets the dowry,the house, the car and graces you with a few years of absolute boredom, the bar girl takes everything to,but wow ,what a ride..... please,this is a bit of slapstick around true events.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Fuirthermore, the Thai government applies rules to us Farangs with regards to marriage that no Thai has to comply with. We are told that we need 400,000bht in a Thai bank for 2 months and then a steady income monthly into the same account. But it seems that no Thai has to do anyof this.Why? Is this fare? Then there is the fact that we Farangs have no apparent rights of protection if something was to happen to the marriage (death or divorce). In those cases, which are all well documented, the Thai wife and her family gets everything.. no questions asked. They are free to act as they see fit to do. We Farangs just have to bend over and say thank you. Is this fare?

400k is for a marriage visa extension, nothing to do with the marriage, no money requirement to get married.

Rules for marriage exactly the same for Thai or foreigner.

[atyclb]

Too many westerners believe on perhaps a subconscious level that they are defacto Crusaders who must "help" ignorant peoples develop, to reach their full potential so-to-speak. This is so sad, because Thailand & Thai culture are symbolic of an untouched fresh garden with a diversity of beautiful flowers in it. The Thai people have managed to remain pure-hearted & independent for a millenia, mainly by -- as my Thai friend says -- mimicking a tree's branches & bending with the wind (versus holding firm & breaking).

(some snipping)

Thailand & Thai culture are symbolic of an untouched fresh garden with a diversity of beautiful flowers in it. The Thai people have managed to remain pure-hearted & independent for a millenia, mainly by -- as my Thai friend says -- mimicking a tree's branches & bending with the wind (versus holding firm & breaking).

Maybe 100 years ago but it is plainly clear and well documented by outspoken Thai's themselves that much the opposite is true nowadays. Society has become rife with cheating, corruption, greed, and rote learning education that produces drones in the mold of the 19th century. Their own crusaders for change can even effect positive change. Just a representative quote from Thai academic/journalist Voranai Vanijaka "cheating and corruption at all levels of society, incompetence is the sum of our failures" Google it and theres lots more. Society also teaches them they are a homogenous superior race. I do indeed have some Thai friends I hold dear and they are high function, critically thinking open minded people coincidentally with lots of education, some abroad, some not. It seems thers no lack of western men that become blindingly enchanted with Thailand not infrequently related to the apparent availability of companionship that is more difficult to obtain in their home countries.

"untouched fresh garden" gives me pause, hard to even find words to respond. I beg you to share with us some examples of these "untouched fresh gardens'

[Korat28]

Plus, if you plan to marry the bird and take her back to your home country, she'll have access to more economic opportunities, better health care, etc. So what would be the point of paying a sin sod too? It's a Thai culture practice, but not a farang cultural occurrence. I told my Thai g/f I won't pay, so she can dump me if she wants, but she says it's not important to her.

The sin sod is also a good way for the family to "gain face." "Oooooh did you see the sin sod Nok's farang husband put down at the wedding?? Oh my God, their family must have sooooo much money!"

[Somchai Mao]

Where I used to live in the UK I got to know around 20 Thai girls most of whom were divorced from their farang husband. Whenever I used to joke with them about hubby getting a refund on his sin sod the general reply was farang are stupid to pay it in the first place. In my experience divorced Thai ladies in the UK tend to become quite unpleasant people.

[F4UCorsair]

Where I used to live in the UK I got to know around 20 Thai girls most of whom were divorced from their farang husband. Whenever I used to joke with them about hubby getting a refund on his sin sod the general reply was farang are stupid to pay it in the first place. In my experience divorced Thai ladies in the UK tend to become quite unpleasant people.

Divorced ladies, of any nationality, anywhere, tend to become quite unpleasant people!!!

[theblether]

Too many westerners believe on perhaps a subconscious level that they are defacto Crusaders who must "help" ignorant peoples develop, to reach their full potential so-to-speak. This is so sad, because Thailand & Thai culture are symbolic of an untouched fresh garden with a diversity of beautiful flowers in it. The Thai people have managed to remain pure-hearted & independent for a millenia, mainly by -- as my Thai friend says -- mimicking a tree's branches & bending with the wind (versus holding firm & breaking).

(some snipping)

Thailand & Thai culture are symbolic of an untouched fresh garden with a diversity of beautiful flowers in it. The Thai people have managed to remain pure-hearted & independent for a millenia, mainly by -- as my Thai friend says -- mimicking a tree's branches & bending with the wind (versus holding firm & breaking).

Maybe 100 years ago but it is plainly clear and well documented by outspoken Thai's themselves that much the opposite is true nowadays. Society has become rife with cheating, corruption, greed, and rote learning education that produces drones in the mold of the 19th century. Their own crusaders for change can even effect positive change. Just a representative quote from Thai academic/journalist Voranai Vanijaka "cheating and corruption at all levels of society, incompetence is the sum of our failures" Google it and theres lots more. Society also teaches them they are a homogenous superior race. I do indeed have some Thai friends I hold dear and they are high function, critically thinking open minded people coincidentally with lots of education, some abroad, some not. It seems thers no lack of western men that become blindingly enchanted with Thailand not infrequently related to the apparent availability of companionship that is more difficult to obtain in their home countries.

"untouched fresh garden" gives me pause, hard to even find words to respond. I beg you to share with us some examples of these "untouched fresh gardens'

Correct.

The Thailand he pines for was an agrarian and feudal place where people literally crawled in front of their masters.

Capitalism and some degree of education has arrived on the scene and that effective master slave relationship has reduced. It hasn't disappeared though. It just manifests itself in more subtle ways.

If the guy that wrote that fanciful waffle had been born to the wrong family here only 100 years ago he would have spent his life on his knees and in servitude. I honestly despair of the intellectual capacity of some people to seek the truth, not some airy fairy conceptualizations that have no bearing upon the lives truly endured by Thais in the past.

Edit to add video.........Thailand 1919.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5dQdujL59Q

[SeabagsFull]

To F4UCorsair: This is my last reply to you, as you've tried to turn the focus of the thread from dowries to me. Thailand is a wonderful country with wonderful people. If you want to live there & get along with the folks & be happy, you've got to learn "my-pen-rai" & let go of all your western-taught hatred. I don't know what else I can say if you don't get that.

To dudu # 124: I agree with you 100%, slap-sticking aside. As a retiree, I wanted to enjoy what life I had left as an explorer, hopefully with a companion who was at least capable of being free of the thought police. IMO, Thai girls are the most beautiful in the world, very gentle & ready to please. Finding one whom has already taken the first step of breaking the proverbial "programming" chains around her neck is not an easy task, unless ... you look in bars. Unfortunately, most bar girls end up with hardened hearts & too much baggage to make good life partners, though short term can be as rewarding as you suggested. The trick, IMO, is to find a bar girl who's fairly new, one whose heart has yet turned to stone.

To Atyclb #126: Everything really depends on how you view the world. E.g., I was shocked to learn, when serving in a UN mission in Iraq/Kuwait with officers from 33 countries, that we in the U.S. are not at the center of the universe. Every single nation on earth has different cultural values & ways of viewing the outside world. Yes there are similarities, but there are huge differences, most of which are usually tied to religion.

Yes, Thailand has corruption, but define corruption. Every pole that I've seen over the past ten years or so yields the same results: Thai people really don't care if their officials are corrupt. I have also learned, begrudgingly, that human beings are not really capable of 100% purity. Even the best have bitter thoughts from time to time, & everyone -- even philanthropists who perhaps expect on some unconcious level to get some good karma in return -- has an agenda.

In the litteral sense, no, Thailand is not untouched. But if you step back for a moment & take a general view of humanity as a whole, you'll find that Thailand has retained its beauty & culture like no other. In general, Thai people are both gentle & non-aggressive, something I challenge you to find any place else. If you treat Thais with kindness & avoid trying to psychoanalyze them, they will go out of their way to be your friend.

Also on the subject of being "untouched," consider that missionaries have been coming to Thailand for hundreds of years, & beginning about 60 years or so ago they've come in full force. Yet 97% of Thais are Buddhist! My wife told me that when she was a young grade school girl In Prachinburi, a missionary came to speak at her school. Before the speaker entered the room, however, her teacher said to the class: "A lady will come & talk about Christianity & Jesus. But remember, Buddha is better." So why does the Thai government allow the missionaries to even come? I submit it's because they're not worried about external forces significantly changing who they are. Thai people are family dependent & welcome all, even the ones who'd prefer to squelch Thai openess & fill their hearts with the anger & hatred associated with most religions; consider that Buddhism is the only religion -- if you want to call it a religion -- that does not proclaim itself to be above all others.

I could write a book on all the examples I've experienced; I'll provide one. In turning a corner on my tuk-tuk in Udon Thani once, my front wheel broke through a board in the road & landed me in a large hole. As it happened, there was no one in sight, probably due to the rain. Within seconds, five neighborhood Thai -- some without shirts on -- appeared out of nowhere & lifted my sam-law back onto the road; they left before I could even offer them some money. Thai people are friendly, loving, fun, if you can leave western judgmentalism at the border.

[F4UCorsair]

Oh, I do 'get' it (to quote your cliche), but no, I'm not trying to shift the focus from the subject matter to you Seabags. I'm interested, as I'm sure many are, in where you're coming from.

Be assured, I have no 'western hatred' in spite of some very difficult times in my life, including losing my daughter, at 30, to cancer.

Have you lived in Thailand? It seems you are married to a Thai from you comment re wife and school.

If that's the best response you can give me, you should perhaps consider politics as a career path??

I'm sure there are many, and I've seen examples, where locals chip in to help somebody in trouble, often putting themselves in danger in so doing. That is not a phenomena restricted to Thailand, and there is enormous good will in the world, in spite of all the ills we see.

So.............are you going to give us some background? I am genuinely interested.

[dudu]

To F4UCorsair: This is my last reply to you, as you've tried to turn the focus of the thread from dowries to me. Thailand is a wonderful country with wonderful people. If you want to live there & get along with the folks & be happy, you've got to learn "my-pen-rai" & let go of all your western-taught hatred. I don't know what else I can say if you don't get that.

To dudu # 124: I agree with you 100%, slap-sticking aside. As a retiree, I wanted to enjoy what life I had left as an explorer, hopefully with a companion who was at least capable of being free of the thought police. IMO, Thai girls are the most beautiful in the world, very gentle & ready to please. Finding one whom has already taken the first step of breaking the proverbial "programming" chains around her neck is not an easy task, unless ... you look in bars. Unfortunately, most bar girls end up with hardened hearts & too much baggage to make good life partners, though short term can be as rewarding as you suggested. The trick, IMO, is to find a bar girl who's fairly new, one whose heart has yet turned to stone.

To Atyclb #126: Everything really depends on how you view the world. E.g., I was shocked to learn, when serving in a UN mission in Iraq/Kuwait with officers from 33 countries, that we in the U.S. are not at the center of the universe. Every single nation on earth has different cultural values & ways of viewing the outside world. Yes there are similarities, but there are huge differences, most of which are usually tied to religion.

Yes, Thailand has corruption, but define corruption. Every pole that I've seen over the past ten years or so yields the same results: Thai people really don't care if their officials are corrupt. I have also learned, begrudgingly, that human beings are not really capable of 100% purity. Even the best have bitter thoughts from time to time, & everyone -- even philanthropists who perhaps expect on some unconcious level to get some good karma in return -- has an agenda.

In the litteral sense, no, Thailand is not untouched. But if you step back for a moment & take a general view of humanity as a whole, you'll find that Thailand has retained its beauty & culture like no other. In general, Thai people are both gentle & non-aggressive, something I challenge you to find any place else. If you treat Thais with kindness & avoid trying to psychoanalyze them, they will go out of their way to be your friend.

Also on the subject of being "untouched," consider that missionaries have been coming to Thailand for hundreds of years, & beginning about 60 years or so ago they've come in full force. Yet 97% of Thais are Buddhist! My wife told me that when she was a young grade school girl In Prachinburi, a missionary came to speak at her school. Before the speaker entered the room, however, her teacher said to the class: "A lady will come & talk about Christianity & Jesus. But remember, Buddha is better." So why does the Thai government allow the missionaries to even come? I submit it's because they're not worried about external forces significantly changing who they are. Thai people are family dependent & welcome all, even the ones who'd prefer to squelch Thai openess & fill their hearts with the anger & hatred associated with most religions; consider that Buddhism is the only religion -- if you want to call it a religion -- that does not proclaim itself to be above all others.

I could write a book on all the examples I've experienced; I'll provide one. In turning a corner on my tuk-tuk in Udon Thani once, my front wheel broke through a board in the road & landed me in a large hole. As it happened, there was no one in sight, probably due to the rain. Within seconds, five neighborhood Thai -- some without shirts on -- appeared out of nowhere & lifted my sam-law back onto the road; they left before I could even offer them some money. Thai people are friendly, loving, fun, if you can leave western judgmentalism at the border.

Remind me to bring earmuffs if i ever meet you in person, man you can write.

[transam]

Sad but true that anyone who pays cash for his new love who has been married before, perhaps kids, is laughed at behind their back.

I HAVE heard it.

[benalibina]

To Benalibina # 116, I don't wish to get in a pissing contest with you. You're welcome to your morals, however widely accepted you believe they are; just don't try to hang your reality on me.

I return you the favour !

[Mooner]

If i have to respect their culture they need to respect mine. Isnt that what marriage is about? Fifty fifty, sharing etc.

So in my culture the father payes for the wedding and in hers i am expected to pay a dowry.

How about we go 50/50 or if your not interested in that then i guess the gf has a decision to make.

[internationallawreview]

Where to begin on this one. . .

The ladies first. Then the men. And a question - How well does one know the cultural verses being referred to in this post?

Women - By what standard has the OP established herself as representative of Thai culture and versed enough to author on the subject? An entire thread replying to a self described "Thai girl", implying she is of the Bangkok middle class whom, according to the OP, comprise majority of the body of women that marry foreigners. Of course it coincidentally serves the OP personally to defend a position that would benefit her (be it financially, or in "face" value and "respect" given). Curiously, many men wish to defend her position, and any Thais who seek sin sot, based of course on the depth of historical knowledge (about Thailand) held by these deeply understanding men - who generally support their own position with, "when in Rome..."

Men - One must wonder about the rigors endured by the panel of experts on Thai marriage (and sin sot) who take time to continually clarify and justify the rights to sin sot inherent to Thais.

I wonder who among them is familiar with the idea that "Some men offer their desires as justification for their crimes."

I would love to see Thailand as the holder of Edenesque remnants, and apply my shoulder to preservation of such a precious treasure, however confounding. I am not much more qualified to profess the tenants of Thai marriage culture than a Bangkok middle class girl, or a foreign apologist or native romancer. It would be great if we were given clarification on someone so qualified to do so.

What we can do is elucidate based upon what we are told (by older Thais) are the actual tenants of Thai marriage culture, so I asked a couple of older Thai folks I have worked with, and quote:

1. Sin sot was to be given for a "virgin", ensuring continuity of paternal lines

2. Marriages were generally arranged, or at least required family agreement.

3. The groom's family sought advantage (financial, face, business, clout) by the union

The political position, land holdings, business stakes, etc of the Thai family.

A girl from a more highly placed or wealthy family would demand more sin sot, as it was understood

that the grooms family would reap benefits from the union.

A pretty face sometimes garnered high sin sot, but only if in parcel with some additional benefits as noted.

4. The bride’s family sought advantage (financial, face, business, clout) by the union

5. The Thai woman left her family and went to live "in service" of the groom and his family thereafter

6. Men with the means would have Mia Noi and more.

7. Property or items of value often "accompanied" the woman going to the groom’s family, along with later business

8. Sin sot could consist of money, gold, and other property

9. The amount of sin sot was subjectively determined and "within reason" to the level the groom's family could give 10. Women accepted their station, and the conditions of the marriage, however true, kind or abusive

11. There were no divorces

This gives a little perspective for both "sides" to consider.

Foreigners had no place in all this Thai marriage tradition. Sometimes girls were often "sold off" to traders and wealthy "outsiders" - (read China). (Some might say this continues today - another topic)

Given the nature of the business like marriage arrangements and the subjugated place of the woman in this, there is a basis to understand how sin sot become engrained in Thai views as beneficial to both the bride & groom and their families.

On the other hand, this (as listed above) has absolutely nothing to do with contemporary cross cultural marriages, precisely because foreigners had no place in Thai society. To say so is more accurately the Thai stating a corruption of their own traditions - unless of course the bride is a virgin who will serve the grooms family unconditionally, and her family will negotiate reasonably the Sin Sot to an arrangement that befits the groom's family, and bring Further benefits to the groom and his family (in business/ positions in society) during the course of the marriage.

We start to see that foreigner's have no place in sin sot/marriage culture, unless this is redefined by revisionist Bangkok OP girls and their champions. There is however a long history of attractive girls from poor families being sold off to foreigners with means to pay - farangs are the famous newcomers to this long quiet trade. These days the farangs are generally subject only to the small time deals made by small time girls/their families. The big transactions are quieter - mostly Thai, sometimes other Asian. So much for the Edenesque. . . What happens to many of these girls, well, that is another topic. . . Let's just say that when you speak with a Thai woman who wants a man who will treat her "good" in terms of her humanity, she truly wants just this, and that is why she considers marrying a man from a far away land.

Pre-emptive Notes: As most of the fun comes in the form of debasing replies, I will save the trouble of conjecturing and elucidate on my particular position. At the moment I am on beach holiday with my gorgeous gf away from our Bkk home. After a day of fun in the ocean, my son (who is unrelated to her) watches Jack Sparrow and my gal has her head on my lap watching me write all this tom-foolery about sin sot. We are a tight couple. She wants to get married and asked if we could tie the knot and have more kids within two years or so. I want to have more kids, yet marriage is not something I am keen on as the benefits of marriage structure pale against the potential losses of a divorce (worldwide). She knows this and we agreed to take time to find a median line between us (and our cultures). Meanwhile she pays her own way, and contributes in small ways buying gifts for kids in my family, driving my son to the beach etc., and I pay for occasional dinners and excursions - a typical "modern" relationship.

We discussed sin sot, and she asked if we could "show" 1 million. She suggested that we set aside money together for sin sot (money made from her business and my own), with both of us paying about half, she will pay more if her income allows. At the time of marriage, half would be given to her mother, as her mother will never let the matter rest, the other half will be returned to us (from her father). Her father will also give us an income producing farm property. Should we have kids we will write the chanote (land title) into their names. It would result in a net loss of 250,000 for me which goes her mother, and the same loss for her to her mother. And the greater net gain of income from land coming to our family. Essentially we plan on acquiescing to buy peace with the corrupted mind of a family member for the betterment of all. We take a bit of solace in knowing that the mother is living with her baby niece whom we adore and possibly the girl will get some benefit from the sin sot.

Some experts here might wonder why she would be so willing to put her own money forward. Her reply is simple, "I stand beside you in everything, the good and the bad". Given all this, she does what she says and I am just reserved to see if our good course continues through the test of time before embracing "the Vows". She is a self respecting girl, of moderate education as given by a top Thai Uni.. She makes her own money and enjoys simple things, sport and nature, and teaching children through charitable programs are involved with. During her university years she had been previously offered millions of baht for marriage, by men both Thai and foreign. She was more than bright enough to realize such offers gave value less deep than the beauty of her face and rather demonstrated the shallow minded way such men seek to exploit financial advantage in order to have a beautiful Thai girl.

Times are changing, and women are waking up in Thailand - learning that a solid relationship based on shared goals and lifestyle, and which includes both people having some basis of power/function/income is of Greater Value (just as women in the States and Europe cleared the way last century, and Japanese women have been doing in recent years..) My gal is just a bit ahead of the curve, as her dad helped her get to Uni. and also trained her in good business habits. She also is to be credited for stepping forward to train her own mind and to adapt to the new world culture-of-information. She is not the only one. (Two years ago I actually in an opposite position when an heiress to a rubber tree fortune offered me 5 million to marry her. But that is another story - and I decided not to follow my "historical culture" of dowry ).

If people wonder how I came to be in such a relationship as I have with my Thai gf, I would have to say, "Why - I am worth it" !

[benalibina]

Where to begin on this one. . .

The ladies first. Then the men. And a question - How well does one know the cultural verses being referred to in this post?

Women - By what standard has the OP established herself as representative of Thai culture and versed enough to author on the subject? An entire thread replying to a self described "Thai girl", implying she is of the Bangkok middle class whom, according to the OP, comprise majority of the body of women that marry foreigners. Of course it coincidentally serves the OP personally to defend a position that would benefit her (be it financially, or in "face" value and "respect" given). Curiously, many men wish to defend her position, and any Thais who seek sin sot, based of course on the depth of historical knowledge (about Thailand) held by these deeply understanding men - who generally support their own position with, "when in Rome..."

Men - One must wonder about the rigors endured by the panel of experts on Thai marriage (and sin sot) who take time to continually clarify and justify the rights to sin sot inherent to Thais.

I wonder who among them is familiar with the idea that "Some men offer their desires as justification for their crimes."

I would love to see Thailand as the holder of Edenesque remnants, and apply my shoulder to preservation of such a precious treasure, however confounding. I am not much more qualified to profess the tenants of Thai marriage culture than a Bangkok middle class girl, or a foreign apologist or native romancer. It would be great if we were given clarification on someone so qualified to do so.

What we can do is elucidate based upon what we are told (by older Thais) are the actual tenants of Thai marriage culture, so I asked a couple of older Thai folks I have worked with, and quote:

1. Sin sot was to be given for a "virgin", ensuring continuity of paternal lines

2. Marriages were generally arranged, or at least required family agreement.

3. The groom's family sought advantage (financial, face, business, clout) by the union

The political position, land holdings, business stakes, etc of the Thai family.

A girl from a more highly placed or wealthy family would demand more sin sot, as it was understood

that the grooms family would reap benefits from the union.

A pretty face sometimes garnered high sin sot, but only if in parcel with some additional benefits as noted.

4. The brides family sought advantage (financial, face, business, clout) by the union

5. The Thai woman left her family and went to live "in service" of the groom and his family thereafter

6. Men with the means would have Mia Noi and more.

7. Property or items of value often "accompanied" the woman going to the grooms family, along with later business

8. Sin sot could consist of money, gold, and other property

9. The amount of sin sot was subjectively determined and "within reason" to the level the groom's family could give 10. Women accepted their station, and the conditions of the marriage, however true, kind or abusive

11. There were no divorces

This gives a little perspective for both "sides" to consider.

Foreigners had no place in all this Thai marriage tradition. Sometimes girls were often "sold off" to traders and wealthy "outsiders" - (read China). (Some might say this continues today - another topic)

Given the nature of the business like marriage arrangements and the subjugated place of the woman in this, there is a basis to understand how sin sot become engrained in Thai views as beneficial to both the bride & groom and their families.

On the other hand, this (as listed above) has absolutely nothing to do with contemporary cross cultural marriages, precisely because foreigners had no place in Thai society. To say so is more accurately the Thai stating a corruption of their own traditions - unless of course the bride is a virgin who will serve the grooms family unconditionally, and her family will negotiate reasonably the Sin Sot to an arrangement that befits the groom's family, and bring Further benefits to the groom and his family (in business/ positions in society) during the course of the marriage.

We start to see that foreigner's have no place in sin sot/marriage culture, unless this is redefined by revisionist Bangkok OP girls and their champions. There is however a long history of attractive girls from poor families being sold off to foreigners with means to pay - farangs are the famous newcomers to this long quiet trade. These days the farangs are generally subject only to the small time deals made by small time girls/their families. The big transactions are quieter - mostly Thai, sometimes other Asian. So much for the Edenesque. . . What happens to many of these girls, well, that is another topic. . . Let's just say that when you speak with a Thai woman who wants a man who will treat her "good" in terms of her humanity, she truly wants just this, and that is why she considers marrying a man from a far away land.

Pre-emptive Notes: As most of the fun comes in the form of debasing replies, I will save the trouble of conjecturing and elucidate on my particular position. At the moment I am on beach holiday with my gorgeous gf away from our Bkk home. After a day of fun in the ocean, my son (who is unrelated to her) watches Jack Sparrow and my gal has her head on my lap watching me write all this tom-foolery about sin sot. We are a tight couple. She wants to get married and asked if we could tie the knot and have more kids within two years or so. I want to have more kids, yet marriage is not something I am keen on as the benefits of marriage structure pale against the potential losses of a divorce (worldwide). She knows this and we agreed to take time to find a median line between us (and our cultures). Meanwhile she pays her own way, and contributes in small ways buying gifts for kids in my family, driving my son to the beach etc., and I pay for occasional dinners and excursions - a typical "modern" relationship.

We discussed sin sot, and she asked if we could "show" 1 million. She suggested that we set aside money together for sin sot (money made from her business and my own), with both of us paying about half, she will pay more if her income allows. At the time of marriage, half would be given to her mother, as her mother will never let the matter rest, the other half will be returned to us (from her father). Her father will also give us an income producing farm property. Should we have kids we will write the chanote (land title) into their names. It would result in a net loss of 250,000 for me which goes her mother, and the same loss for her to her mother. And the greater net gain of income from land coming to our family. Essentially we plan on acquiescing to buy peace with the corrupted mind of a family member for the betterment of all. We take a bit of solace in knowing that the mother is living with her baby niece whom we adore and possibly the girl will get some benefit from the sin sot.

Some experts here might wonder why she would be so willing to put her own money forward. Her reply is simple, "I stand beside you in everything, the good and the bad". Given all this, she does what she says and I am just reserved to see if our good course continues through the test of time before embracing "the Vows". She is a self respecting girl, of moderate education as given by a top Thai Uni.. She makes her own money and enjoys simple things, sport and nature, and teaching children through charitable programs are involved with. During her university years she had been previously offered millions of baht for marriage, by men both Thai and foreign. She was more than bright enough to realize such offers gave value less deep than the beauty of her face and rather demonstrated the shallow minded way such men seek to exploit financial advantage in order to have a beautiful Thai girl.

Times are changing, and women are waking up in Thailand - learning that a solid relationship based on shared goals and lifestyle, and which includes both people having some basis of power/function/income is of Greater Value (just as women in the States and Europe cleared the way last century, and Japanese women have been doing in recent years..) My gal is just a bit ahead of the curve, as her dad helped her get to Uni. and also trained her in good business habits. She also is to be credited for stepping forward to train her own mind and to adapt to the new world culture-of-information. She is not the only one. (Two years ago I actually in an opposite position when an heiress to a rubber tree fortune offered me 5 million to marry her. But that is another story - and I decided not to follow my "historical culture" of dowry ).

If people wonder how I came to be in such a relationship as I have with my Thai gf, I would have to say, "Why - I am worth it" !

And you are a comedian !!

Anyway best of luck for you.

[StaffsShot]

sin sod is buying a woman it is against my beliefs and I will not do it. I have told the girl I am living with this so we are staying single. if I got pressured into giving sin sod I would walk away.

I recently married my Thai lady, she's never been married, no kids, no brothers or sisters, no dad.

Owns her own house and land other side of the village. As an only child her mum and Aunt bought the house for her.

But it's against my principle to pay any dowry. She spoke with big yai but I stood firm.

She's a real keeper but I was ready to put off the wedding. I also explained in UK the brides family usually pays for the wedding

We had a fantastic day and I get on really well with her mum

I do believe some families see it as an excuse to get extra cash out of the perceived to be wealthy falang

[dudu]

sin sod is buying a woman it is against my beliefs and I will not do it. I have told the girl I am living with this so we are staying single. if I got pressured into giving sin sod I would walk away.

I recently married my Thai lady, she's never been married, no kids, no brothers or sisters, no dad.

Owns her own house and land other side of the village. As an only child her mum and Aunt bought the house for her.

But it's against my principle to pay any dowry. She spoke with big yai but I stood firm.

She's a real keeper but I was ready to put off the wedding. I also explained in UK the brides family usually pays for the wedding

We had a fantastic day and I get on really well with her mum

I do believe some families see it as an excuse to get extra cash out of the perceived to be wealthy falang

This scares the sh*t out of me.

[Emdog]

I can understand sin sod as an insurance policy. Lots of guys, Thais and farangs, leave the woman after some time. Often with a baby to take care of, and no child support. Her value and desirability have dropped quite a bit. Consider it a restocking charge? I know I wouldn't bail out on her and a kid, but there are just far too many that do. My current gf did the village marriage etc when she got pregnant (to Thai guy). A few months after the baby came, he decided he didn't like all the crying, so just packed up and went home. Lots of guys will say and promise anything to get laid, he was no exception. Like the old saying "Money talks, and bullshit walks".

[F4UCorsair]

I can understand sin sod as an insurance policy. Lots of guys, Thais and farangs, leave the woman after some time. Often with a baby to take care of, and no child support. Her value and desirability have dropped quite a bit. Consider it a restocking charge? I know I wouldn't bail out on her and a kid, but there are just far too many that do. My current gf did the village marriage etc when she got pregnant (to Thai guy). A few months after the baby came, he decided he didn't like all the crying, so just packed up and went home. Lots of guys will say and promise anything to get laid, he was no exception. Like the old saying "Money talks, and bullshit walks".

You may consider it a 'restocking charge', but the Thais represent it as something quite different. If they could agree on what sin sod really is, the poor bloody foreigner may be able to see some justification, but mostly it appears that it's no more than a rort!!

[MonkeyLoo]

I don't agree with the dowry in this day and age.

My view is that the Thai girl and family should see beyond it and look more at what the westerner can bring to the family by way of long term opportunities. If the western guy wants to help financially it should be his choice. Not a condition.

[grimblegrumble]

£2000 ! For that and some gold you get to have a Thai marriage with no guarantees. No paper legal or otherwise. No guarantee the money will be handed back. No guarantee she will still be married to you tomorrow or the next week. Hell, not even a 30 day money back guarantee that would give you sex each night for 30 days / £2000 = £66 a shag.

[benalibina]

£2000 ! For that and some gold you get to have a Thai marriage with no guarantees. No paper legal or otherwise. No guarantee the money will be handed back. No guarantee she will still be married to you tomorrow or the next week. Hell, not even a 30 day money back guarantee that would give you sex each night for 30 days / £2000 = £66 a shag.

For some thats quite cheap though.

[F4UCorsair]

£2000 ! For that and some gold you get to have a Thai marriage with no guarantees. No paper legal or otherwise. No guarantee the money will be handed back. No guarantee she will still be married to you tomorrow or the next week. Hell, not even a 30 day money back guarantee that would give you sex each night for 30 days / £2000 = £66 a shag.

And you gotta be able to do a LOT cheaper than 66 quid to drain your spuds downtown. Soi Nana chicks can be negotiated down to B500 on a slow night..........so I'm told.

[ttthailand]

I think every case is different and needs to be evaluated case by case. The 20 year old bar girl marrying the 50+ year old guy, her family and her are more likely looking at how much money they can make, period ! She has little or no education, no real upbringing, not a virgin, Etc. Then you take the girl who's family raised her well, paid for her education, and keep her away from the boys, kind of, now her parents may have a right to ask for a pay back. They have invested in her and want to make sure that she heads in the right direction.

The face issue also comes into play for both lady and man. I think any guy who pays crazy money for someone who is not really worth anything, in a Thai persons eyes, has lost his face and the respect of all Thais who know what he has paid. The good Thai family who raised a good daughter will also loose face if their efforts are not rewarded. Basically, I think you need to look at this a little like a business deal. You would not pay top dollar for a sandwich that was half eaten with nothing inside and thrown on a bar room table. But now that perfect sandwich prepared beautifully with loads of meat and presented nicely on the plate with all the trimmings is a dish worth paying for. Just saying....

[SeabagsFull]

To Internationallawreview #137: A well written essay that would probably get you an A in college. The points you make, however, are way up there in the clouds, very cerebral, & not really relevant to the Thai way of life.

In America, we're brought up to believe that the law is absolute, that everything is based on good versus evil. We are conditioned to view the world in two-dimensional logic; that's why many westerners -- & Americans in particular -- cannot comprehend the soul of a Thai. What we lack is a third dimensional appreciation of the human experience, something the UK seems to get by its "compassionate defense" laws.

I have several Thai people as my friends: a few generals, an admiral, a pilot of Thai International Airways, a university dean, doctors, etc. What I see in all of them is the ability to downplay logic for the sake of the heart. E.g., I can sit down with my pilot friend & discuss String or M Theory with him & have difficulty keeping up; yet on personal relationship issues it almost seems he doesn't understand logic at all. I've come to believe that our mental abilites to master the binary logic of the universe is but one tool we humans have at our disposal. Some would have us subjugate all other senses & tools to logic; Thai people do not. Obviously, religious leaders get this which is why they instruct their followers to disregard logic if it contradicts the teachings of the Bible, Koran, Tora, etc., with a simple "it's the Devil's tongue trying to confuse you! statement."

Whether you paid a dowry to your wife's parents or not depends on you & how sensitive you are to her feelings, whether she admits them to you or not, & how far you can gaze into the future for how not paying will effect the feelings & attitudes of everyone in your wife's social & familial circle.

Your wife sounds very lovely, almost as though she were an American. White picket fences ... But as we age we begin not to care so much for all the time-clocking & feathers in our caps & items checked off of someone else's list. I submit that this is why so many aging farang end up in Thailand with younger, more emotionally compatible companions. Thai women have so much to offer if you just give them a chance; why in the world would anyone want to change who they are or their culture? Consider what life in Thailand would be like now if missionaries had been even a fraction as successful here as they've been almost everywhere else.

To MonkeyLoo #143: I agree with you in principle. Having traveled among many cultures in my lifetime, however, I've come to realize that the right versus wrong we're taught in the west is very binary & Borg-like. Everything really depends on your background, & each country has its own history. Truthfully, I'm more concerned about corrupting a culture's natural development, that perhaps my way would disturb the peoples' inherent beauty. So I practice Star Trek's Prime Directive wherever possible. I chose to go to Thailand. I chose to live there. I chose to marry a Thai girl. It only seems fair that I live by their rules & not try to change who they are. I mean, if I couldn't accept this view then I really wouldn't belong there, would I?

[kevvy]

£2000 ! For that and some gold you get to have a Thai marriage with no guarantees. No paper legal or otherwise. No guarantee the money will be handed back. No guarantee she will still be married to you tomorrow or the next week. Hell, not even a 30 day money back guarantee that would give you sex each night for 30 days / £2000 = £66 a shag.

For some thats quite cheap though.

you couldn't even afford to buy fake gold .. yes I am your mate, because you have no one else .what a sorry life you have

[rct99q]

OMG I have had a wonderful past two days, some good news, a new job, immigration boss slipping through some paper work for me for free and then reading this thread. I have had a smile on my face for hours now.

Some of you are very twisted people. Not hard to understand why a few of you had failed marriages that ended badly. Then you come over here and get all wound up again. My wife keeps breaking out laughing when she reads these posts.

Please keep this one open for awhile....omg........66£/shag...priceless.

[Straight8]

I won't pay a bar fine.

Never mind pay a dowry,for some bird that's been around the block a few times.

Single suits some.

But not all.

Sent from my GT-P7500 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

You won't pay a bar fine? What do they do give it for free? Not likely.

Man, you must be cheap.

You must in that case, struggle outside the bar scene.