thailoht Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 I thought it interesting that the 17” OEMs on the new dmax penciled out 4mm shorter than the 16” OEMs on the old dmax. I don't understand this point, would kindly you explain it a little more? Shorter in which way, their overall height from the ground upwards? Overall height, yes. I guess outside diameter would have been a better choice of words… OK, Got it! Yes, depending on the profile, some 17" low profile tires would be a 'tad' - (x mm) - shorter in height than 16" higher profile tires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mogandave Posted October 8, 2013 Author Share Posted October 8, 2013 4mm less in diameter means 2mm less in radius, so vehicle height is 2mm less if the same springs etc are used. That is correct, but when I said that the 17” OEMs on the new dmax penciled out 4mm shorter than the 16” OEMs on the old dmax, I was talking about the tires, that's why I went on to say that OD would have been a better choice of words. What effect the difference is on the hight of the vehicle would be much more involved than running numbers on tire size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transam Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 I thought it interesting that the 17” OEMs on the new dmax penciled out 4mm shorter than the 16” OEMs on the old dmax. I don't understand this point, would kindly you explain it a little more? Shorter in which way, their overall height from the ground upwards? Overall height, yes. I guess outside diameter would have been a better choice of words… OK, Got it! Yes, depending on the profile, some 17" low profile tires would be a 'tad' - (x mm) - shorter in height than 16" higher profile tires. 16 use a 265 x70 profile and 17 use 265 x 65 profile so dia and circumference are virtually the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mogandave Posted October 8, 2013 Author Share Posted October 8, 2013 I thought it interesting that the 17” OEMs on the new dmax penciled out 4mm shorter than the 16” OEMs on the old dmax. I don't understand this point, would kindly you explain it a little more? Shorter in which way, their overall height from the ground upwards? Overall height, yes. I guess outside diameter would have been a better choice of words… OK, Got it! Yes, depending on the profile, some 17" low profile tires would be a 'tad' - (x mm) - shorter in height than 16" higher profile tires. 16 use a 265 x70 profile and 17 use 265 x 65 profile so dia and circumference are virtually the same. Exactly, the first number is the tread width in mm, the second number is the aspect ratio of tread width to profile, and the third number is the rim size in inches. So the OD is two times the first number, times the second number/100 + the third number times 25.4 Or: 2 X 265 X 65/100 + 17 X 25.4 =776.3 ~ 30.6” (the old Isuzu OEMs) And: 2 X 265 X 70/100 + 16 X 25.4 =777.4 ~ 30.6”(The new Michelins) And: 2 X 255 X 65/100 + 17 X 25.4 = 763.3 ~ 30.1” (The OEMs that came off the new Isuzu) I think I made a mistake the first time I ran the numbers. 16” tires on the old Isuzu are 14mm taller than the 17” tires that came on the new Isuzu, and (as *TransAm indicated) just over 1mm taller than the new Michelins. *Please note: Even a broken clock is right twice a day… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thailoht Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Exactly, the first number is the tread width in mm, the second number is the aspect ratio of tread width to profile, and the third number is the rim size in inches. So the OD is two times the first number, times the second number/100 + the third number times 25.4 Or: 2 X 265 X 65/100 + 17 X 25.4 =776.3 ~ 30.6” (the old Isuzu OEMs) And: 2 X 265 X 70/100 + 16 X 25.4 =777.4 ~ 30.6”(The new Michelins) And: 2 X 255 X 65/100 + 17 X 25.4 = 763.3 ~ 30.1” (The OEMs that came off the new Isuzu) I think I made a mistake the first time I ran the numbers. 16” tires on the old Isuzu are 14mm taller than the 17” tires that came on the new Isuzu, and (as *TransAm indicated) just over 1mm taller than the new Michelins. *Please note: Even a broken clock is right twice a day… Yep, those figures look to be just about right though I would take the 'inch' category to 2 places and change your '777.4 ~ 30.6' to 777.4 ~ 30.56 and your '763.3 ~ 30.1' to '763.3 ~ 30.05' in order to more differentiate the tire sizes in each category. Also, ' *Please note: Even a broken clock is right twice a day… ', but only twice out of 1,440 times (and if there is no second hand)! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mogandave Posted October 8, 2013 Author Share Posted October 8, 2013 Exactly, the first number is the tread width in mm, the second number is the aspect ratio of tread width to profile, and the third number is the rim size in inches. So the OD is two times the first number, times the second number/100 + the third number times 25.4 Or: 2 X 265 X 65/100 + 17 X 25.4 =776.3 ~ 30.6” (the old Isuzu OEMs) And: 2 X 265 X 70/100 + 16 X 25.4 =777.4 ~ 30.6”(The new Michelins) And: 2 X 255 X 65/100 + 17 X 25.4 = 763.3 ~ 30.1” (The OEMs that came off the new Isuzu) I think I made a mistake the first time I ran the numbers. 16” tires on the old Isuzu are 14mm taller than the 17” tires that came on the new Isuzu, and (as *TransAm indicated) just over 1mm taller than the new Michelins. *Please note: Even a broken clock is right twice a day… Yep, those figures look to be just about right though I would take the 'inch' category to 2 places and change your '777.4 ~ 30.6' to 777.4 ~ 30.56 and your '763.3 ~ 30.1' to '763.3 ~ 30.05' in order to more differentiate the tire sizes in each category. Also, ' *Please note: Even a broken clock is right twice a day… ', but only twice out of 1,440 times (and if there is no second hand)! Well, I guess even a blind blind hog gets an acorn once in a while... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thailoht Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Well, I guess even a blind blind hog gets an acorn once in a while... .... that's a sure way to not have to worry about falling victim to the butcher's knife! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJH77 Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 Last night i watched Fifth Gear 21 and Tiff Needal conducted a test comparing the difference between AIR Inflated Tyres and NITROGEN Inflated. Apparently Air leaks through the side walls slowly whereas Nitrogen does not so your tyres are supposed to maintain the right pressure, not gradually looseing pressure. My first set of Goodyear Racing Slicks back in 1972 actually went Flat Overnight. Anyway all other Tests performed like putting both tyres in an oven at 80 deg C for 1 hour, The air filled tyre increased in pressure the least so should be better. Track Test of 10 laps on each in Suziki Swifts showed exactly the same Lap Times, so again NO Advantage with Nitrogen. So his reaction was that it may work in Formula One but for the normal road car there is absolutely NO Advantage in using Nitrogen, in fact due to the lower increase in Temperature created by Road Heat, Normal Air is better. The only downside is you still have to check your Trye Pressures Regularly to maintain them. But don't forget, do it yourself as the Thai guys will give you 40 psi or more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thailoht Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 Last night i watched Fifth Gear 21 and Tiff Needal conducted a test comparing the difference between AIR Inflated Tyres and NITROGEN Inflated. Apparently Air leaks through the side walls slowly whereas Nitrogen does not so your tyres are supposed to maintain the right pressure, not gradually looseing pressure. My first set of Goodyear Racing Slicks back in 1972 actually went Flat Overnight. Anyway all other Tests performed like putting both tyres in an oven at 80 deg C for 1 hour, The air filled tyre increased in pressure the least so should be better. Track Test of 10 laps on each in Suziki Swifts showed exactly the same Lap Times, so again NO Advantage with Nitrogen. So his reaction was that it may work in Formula One but for the normal road car there is absolutely NO Advantage in using Nitrogen, in fact due to the lower increase in Temperature created by Road Heat, Normal Air is better. The only downside is you still have to check your Trye Pressures Regularly to maintain them. But don't forget, do it yourself as the Thai guys will give you 40 psi or more. The two big differences that you listed is reason enough, for me at least, to believe Nitrogen is overall better than air inflation .... - air leaks through the side walls (Duh! Like, that right there tells me it's time to look for a better technology) Sometimes it's not just 'the advantages' but the 'disadvantages' that make the difference. For the few baht you pay for Nitrogen: - It potentially lasts the life of the tire - Tire pressure remains static - no worries when taking long trips no worries about forgetting to check the tire pressure (which could lead to premature tire wear and .... more money to replace tires) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwasaki Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 (edited) Exactly, the first number is the tread width in mm, the second number is the aspect ratio of tread width to profile, and the third number is the rim size in inches. So the OD is two times the first number, times the second number/100 + the third number times 25.4 Or: 2 X 265 X 65/100 + 17 X 25.4 =776.3 ~ 30.6” (the old Isuzu OEMs) And: 2 X 265 X 70/100 + 16 X 25.4 =777.4 ~ 30.6”(The new Michelins) And: 2 X 255 X 65/100 + 17 X 25.4 = 763.3 ~ 30.1” (The OEMs that came off the new Isuzu) I think I made a mistake the first time I ran the numbers. 16” tires on the old Isuzu are 14mm taller than the 17” tires that came on the new Isuzu, and (as *TransAm indicated) just over 1mm taller than the new Michelins. *Please note: Even a broken clock is right twice a day… Not one of my digital clocks. My only comment on Nitrogen filled tyres is if you buy tyres from ' Cockpit outlets ' maybe others do it as well, you get checks and refills free for the life of the tyres at any of there outlets throughout Thailand. Then you adjust to the pressure of your ride you like of course. Edited October 9, 2013 by Kwasaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace of Pop Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 Mine are filled with Laughing Gas i recon going by the Chuckles when i get a flat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mogandave Posted October 9, 2013 Author Share Posted October 9, 2013 Last night i watched Fifth Gear 21 and Tiff Needal conducted a test comparing the difference between AIR Inflated Tyres and NITROGEN Inflated. Apparently Air leaks through the side walls slowly whereas Nitrogen does not so your tyres are supposed to maintain the right pressure, not gradually looseing pressure. My first set of Goodyear Racing Slicks back in 1972 actually went Flat Overnight. Anyway all other Tests performed like putting both tyres in an oven at 80 deg C for 1 hour, The air filled tyre increased in pressure the least so should be better. Track Test of 10 laps on each in Suziki Swifts showed exactly the same Lap Times, so again NO Advantage with Nitrogen. So his reaction was that it may work in Formula One but for the normal road car there is absolutely NO Advantage in using Nitrogen, in fact due to the lower increase in Temperature created by Road Heat, Normal Air is better. The only downside is you still have to check your Trye Pressures Regularly to maintain them. But don't forget, do it yourself as the Thai guys will give you 40 psi or more. The two big differences that you listed is reason enough, for me at least, to believe Nitrogen is overall better than air inflation .... - air leaks through the side walls (Duh! Like, that right there tells me it's time to look for a better technology) Sometimes it's not just 'the advantages' but the 'disadvantages' that make the difference. For the few baht you pay for Nitrogen: - It potentially lasts the life of the tire - Tire pressure remains static - no worries when taking long trips no worries about forgetting to check the tire pressure (which could lead to premature tire wear and .... more money to replace tires) The nitrogen leaks out as well, just more slowly. It still makes sense to check once a week just to make sure you have not picked up a leak, but you should only have to top up every few months. The nitrogen is much drier than typical compressed air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transam Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 Last night i watched Fifth Gear 21 and Tiff Needal conducted a test comparing the difference between AIR Inflated Tyres and NITROGEN Inflated. Apparently Air leaks through the side walls slowly whereas Nitrogen does not so your tyres are supposed to maintain the right pressure, not gradually looseing pressure. My first set of Goodyear Racing Slicks back in 1972 actually went Flat Overnight. Anyway all other Tests performed like putting both tyres in an oven at 80 deg C for 1 hour, The air filled tyre increased in pressure the least so should be better. Track Test of 10 laps on each in Suziki Swifts showed exactly the same Lap Times, so again NO Advantage with Nitrogen. So his reaction was that it may work in Formula One but for the normal road car there is absolutely NO Advantage in using Nitrogen, in fact due to the lower increase in Temperature created by Road Heat, Normal Air is better. The only downside is you still have to check your Trye Pressures Regularly to maintain them. But don't forget, do it yourself as the Thai guys will give you 40 psi or more. The two big differences that you listed is reason enough, for me at least, to believe Nitrogen is overall better than air inflation .... - air leaks through the side walls (Duh! Like, that right there tells me it's time to look for a better technology) Sometimes it's not just 'the advantages' but the 'disadvantages' that make the difference. For the few baht you pay for Nitrogen: - It potentially lasts the life of the tire - Tire pressure remains static - no worries when taking long trips no worries about forgetting to check the tire pressure (which could lead to premature tire wear and .... more money to replace tires) The nitrogen leaks out as well, just more slowly. It still makes sense to check once a week just to make sure you have not picked up a leak, but you should only have to top up every few months. The nitrogen is much drier than typical compressed air. Inflation from an air compressor pulls in water as well as air from the atmosphere. Nitrogen comes from a high pressure 100% nitrogen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mogandave Posted October 9, 2013 Author Share Posted October 9, 2013 Don’t most tire shops use nitrogen generators that isolate nitrogen from the atmosphere rather than high pressure bottles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transam Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 Don’t most tire shops use nitrogen generators that isolate nitrogen from the atmosphere rather than high pressure bottles? Don't know, but stuff I have seen here is a bottle, similar to acetylene or Co2 bottles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thailoht Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 Last night i watched Fifth Gear 21 and Tiff Needal conducted a test comparing the difference between AIR Inflated Tyres and NITROGEN Inflated. Apparently Air leaks through the side walls slowly whereas Nitrogen does not so your tyres are supposed to maintain the right pressure, not gradually looseing pressure. My first set of Goodyear Racing Slicks back in 1972 actually went Flat Overnight. Anyway all other Tests performed like putting both tyres in an oven at 80 deg C for 1 hour, The air filled tyre increased in pressure the least so should be better. Track Test of 10 laps on each in Suziki Swifts showed exactly the same Lap Times, so again NO Advantage with Nitrogen. So his reaction was that it may work in Formula One but for the normal road car there is absolutely NO Advantage in using Nitrogen, in fact due to the lower increase in Temperature created by Road Heat, Normal Air is better. The only downside is you still have to check your Trye Pressures Regularly to maintain them. But don't forget, do it yourself as the Thai guys will give you 40 psi or more. The two big differences that you listed is reason enough, for me at least, to believe Nitrogen is overall better than air inflation .... - air leaks through the side walls (Duh! Like, that right there tells me it's time to look for a better technology) Sometimes it's not just 'the advantages' but the 'disadvantages' that make the difference. For the few baht you pay for Nitrogen: - It potentially lasts the life of the tire - Tire pressure remains static - no worries when taking long trips no worries about forgetting to check the tire pressure (which could lead to premature tire wear and .... more money to replace tires) The nitrogen leaks out as well, just more slowly. It still makes sense to check once a week just to make sure you have not picked up a leak, but you should only have to top up every few months. The nitrogen is much drier than typical compressed air. Not to be too technical, but to also keep things as definitively clear as possible (for future forum readers), to what degree are you saying that nitrogen leaks out (when compared to air) and what source are you referencing? Based on the testing DJH77 witnessed and writes about (above), he says that nitrogen does not leak from the tire sidewall. I bought new tires and had them filled with nitrogen over a year ago. I have been checking them constantly - mostly out of old habit but also to note how well the nitrogen maintains its pressure - and after 18,000 km and several long distance and up and down the mountains, the tire pressure remains at just over the 28 psi reading that it was when they were first filled. Once again, my hat is off to the guys on this forum who I learned about this technique from. To be honest, in a way, I am disappointed because I have a brand new Porter-Cable air compressor ready to use in the eventuality of low air in the tires, etc. but it hasn't been needed! I think I'll go refill the air in the lawn mower tires ... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mogandave Posted October 9, 2013 Author Share Posted October 9, 2013 (edited) Last night i watched Fifth Gear 21 and Tiff Needal conducted a test comparing the difference between AIR Inflated Tyres and NITROGEN Inflated. Apparently Air leaks through the side walls slowly whereas Nitrogen does not so your tyres are supposed to maintain the right pressure, not gradually looseing pressure. My first set of Goodyear Racing Slicks back in 1972 actually went Flat Overnight. Anyway all other Tests performed like putting both tyres in an oven at 80 deg C for 1 hour, The air filled tyre increased in pressure the least so should be better. Track Test of 10 laps on each in Suziki Swifts showed exactly the same Lap Times, so again NO Advantage with Nitrogen. So his reaction was that it may work in Formula One but for the normal road car there is absolutely NO Advantage in using Nitrogen, in fact due to the lower increase in Temperature created by Road Heat, Normal Air is better. The only downside is you still have to check your Trye Pressures Regularly to maintain them. But don't forget, do it yourself as the Thai guys will give you 40 psi or more. The two big differences that you listed is reason enough, for me at least, to believe Nitrogen is overall better than air inflation .... - air leaks through the side walls (Duh! Like, that right there tells me it's time to look for a better technology) Sometimes it's not just 'the advantages' but the 'disadvantages' that make the difference. For the few baht you pay for Nitrogen: - It potentially lasts the life of the tire - Tire pressure remains static - no worries when taking long trips no worries about forgetting to check the tire pressure (which could lead to premature tire wear and .... more money to replace tires) The nitrogen leaks out as well, just more slowly. It still makes sense to check once a week just to make sure you have not picked up a leak, but you should only have to top up every few months. The nitrogen is much drier than typical compressed air. Not to be too technical, but to also keep things as definitively clear as possible (for future forum readers), to what degree are you saying that nitrogen leaks out (when compared to air) and what source are you referencing? Based on the testing DJH77 witnessed and writes about (above), he says that nitrogen does not leak from the tire sidewall. I bought new tires and had them filled with nitrogen over a year ago. I have been checking them constantly - mostly out of old habit but also to note how well the nitrogen maintains its pressure - and after 18,000 km and several long distance and up and down the mountains, the tire pressure remains at just over the 28 psi reading that it was when they were first filled. Once again, my hat is off to the guys on this forum who I learned about this technique from. To be honest, in a way, I am disappointed because I have a brand new Porter-Cable air compressor ready to use in the eventuality of low air in the tires, etc. but it hasn't been needed! I think I'll go refill the air in the lawn mower tires ... I think the primary reason nitrogen is used in critical applications is because it does not hold moisture, and it does not facilitate combustion. I have not seen a TV show about it, but I have read a little about it. I have also had nitrogen filled tires on several vehicles (including the set I just bought) and I have never gotten away from having to top up occasionally. My understanding is that tires are porous, and that all gases will leak out, but that because of differences in the molecular structure, some gasses leak more quickly than others. Your understating is different, so be it. I have a Gardner-Denver 30HP screw I use every day and a Sullar 25HP screw as a back up. Edited October 9, 2013 by mogandave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jitar Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 Yep, Nitrogen is used in tyres for aircraft and some heavy equipment primarily because it reduces the chance of combustion and tyre explosions. Big tyres under big loads (and high speeds in the case of aircraft) can generate an explosive mixture of gasses inside the tyre. These can reach auto ignition temperatures, resulting a really big bang. http://www.miningsafety.co.za/dynamiccontent/80/Minimising-Tyre-Fires-and-Explosions-at-our-Mines The situation for car tyres is very different. They are not stressed as much so the explosion risk is relatively low. The reduced leakage argument applies if punctures are rare. Most of my tyre problems have been caused by punctures, not air leaking through sidewalls. Maybe a tyre pressure monitoring system would be more effective for tyre damage than nitrogen?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mogandave Posted October 9, 2013 Author Share Posted October 9, 2013 Maybe a tyre pressure monitoring system would be more effective for tyre damage than nitrogen?. I have one in the glove box.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwasaki Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 Maybe a tyre pressure monitoring system would be more effective for tyre damage than nitrogen?. I have one in the glove box.... Nitrogen in tyres has been battered to death on threads before, whatever the opinions or experiences of others is, in the end I have found it better for many reasons. For me I thought it was a bit of a gimmick at first but it ended up as a personal experience of choice, it was around 8 months after new tyre fitment at a ' Cockpit ' that a loss of a 1 psi was noted in 3 tyres and more so in one at one time which ended up as a faulty valve. I put it down to the type of tyre pressure guage I used every 2 months or so losing some when attached to check. I am impressed with it's performance and use it in my motorcycle tyres where pressure is a bit more important than jam-jars. Just to note if a puncture happens or a fault it is best to take it back to where you bought or a similar outlet as they make sure the rims are cleaned thoroughly, fit new valve and also check the tyre beads are ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thailoht Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Maybe a tyre pressure monitoring system would be more effective for tyre damage than nitrogen?. I have one in the glove box.... That is a great idea - using a tire pressure monitoring system with Nitrogen would make for the ultimate tire-protection combination! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transam Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Maybe a tyre pressure monitoring system would be more effective for tyre damage than nitrogen?. I have one in the glove box.... That is a great idea - using a tire pressure monitoring system with Nitrogen would make for the ultimate tire-protection combination! Blimey, stewardess next......... ........................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thailoht Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Maybe a tyre pressure monitoring system would be more effective for tyre damage than nitrogen?. I have one in the glove box.... That is a great idea - using a tire pressure monitoring system with Nitrogen would make for the ultimate tire-protection combination! Blimey, stewardess next......... ........................ She'll be sitting on my lap in the passenger seat monitoring my new 'tire pressure kit' - if you know what I mean - as I roll down the highway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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