Being religious: thai vs farang

[boomerangutang]

People can paint themselves religious until they run out of faux gold paint, but it's how those folks manifest day-to-day, that matters. I see Thais as talking haltingly, perhaps taking 30 words (many repeated), and as many gutteral sounds, to say something which could have been said in, perhaps, 5 words. Regardless of whether they're speaking English or Thai.

Speech is reflective of mind.

There are other factors, but perhaps because I'm a musician, and am particularly sensitive to sound. I notice the halting, high pitched, hurried, affected nasal-sounding speech of Thais. A person who is grounded and calm, wouldn't need to speak in that manner. I hear it all over, all ages, all social strata.

[kikoman]

For 12 years I have heard the Thailand based Falangs attack Buddhism, I have lived in this country for 12 years and not one single Thai has tried to convert me to Buddhism, I know of people from the states who come to Thailand to convert Buddhists to Christianity, I have never even been in a conversation of religion with any Thai, except when my wife explains to me why different holy days are celebrated.

Look at the history of Europe and the Middle East how many wars have been fought in the name of religion, how many people have been killed in the name of the Lord. I may be wrong but I know of no Buddhist nation of going to war for the single purpose of spending Buddhism.

In Pattaya I can not sit down and have a beer in peace without some drunk Falang start to want to argue about religion or politics. Look at the sad history of inter-European wars that number in as many as 45 in a given century

I do not think any Western religion has been free from teaching bigotry.

Cheers:

[boomerangutang]

In Pattaya I can not sit down and have a beer in peace without some drunk Falang start to want to argue about religion or politics.

Sounds like a drug-related problem. Seriously though, I though all farang talked about in Pattaya was bar girls, beer and visa runs. If they 'argue about religion and politics' then that's an improvement. Plus, it takes two to tango. If you don't want to discuss particular subjects, then how can there be an argument? Are they arguing out loud with themselves? Perhaps so, but then that's a topic about mental health.

[HOAX]

Are there actually any non-spiritual and non-superstitious people in Thailand (farang and Thai)?

I'm very Atheist, interested in science, history and religion. I have yet to meet anyone that's on my level.

But, like a guy here said, the very most Thai are Buddhist, but the very most know shockingly little about the history of Buddhism and Buddha (most got no knowledge about history at all). It's all about traditions, respect and keeping face. Matter of fact, most Thai Buddhist break some of the most fundamental original teachings from Buddha. Among one of the worst is that very many Thai believe there is a God or "something like that", even though Buddha strongly rejected the existence of a God, Many even see Buddha as a spiritual being you can interact with in some way. The very few Thais I've met who aren't Buddhist is either Pantheist or New Age spiritual.

[Emdog]

Be willing to die for a religion doesn't prove it is true or real. Just that you are gullible.

Religion may comfort people, but that doesn't prove it is real.

I have been slogging through the bible, and it is not an easy read. I don't need to go into the despicable behavior and lack of morals, but for being "word of God" it is so full of self contradictions and inconsistencies...

Some people here(most people) are clueless about Buddhism, beyond praying for lottery tickets etc. I like this quote from Buddha, which is counter to what most religions consider bedrock of faith (believe, don't ask, don't reason, etc):

'Do not believe anything merely on the authority of your teachers and priests. But, whatever, after thorough investigation and reflection, you find to agree with reason and experience, as conducive to the good and benefit of one and all of the world at large, accept only that as true, and shape your life in accordance with it.' -Buddha

Edited October 8, 2013 by Emdog

[Kananga]

The only reason people in the West, are less religious now - are because of a increasing level of education.

Give the Thai's a better education, and they will call the BS.

What's BS about treating other people with respect?

What's BS about minding your speech?

What's BS about not killing other living beings?

Buddhism can teach most of us a lot of things that would probably help us live a better life. I can't actually see ONE thing about that I can call BS.

I'll tell you. The BS is that you dont need religion to be a good person and do the things you mention. Any society that needs religion to behave itself is not civilised in its own right. And Thailand, with its high number of buddhists has a high level of crime, including violent crime on other human beings.

And then there is the reincarnation bit. Thats hilarious BS. Praying to a gold statue for good luck so you win the lottery is BS. Gaining merit is BS, As if there is a little buddha in the sky keeping scores on everyone. Come on. Thats up there with Noah and his amazing ark.

[kikoman]

In Pattaya I can not sit down and have a beer in peace without some drunk Falang start to want to argue about religion or politics.

Sounds like a drug-related problem. Seriously though, I though all farang talked about in Pattaya was bar girls, beer and visa runs. If they 'argue about religion and politics' then that's an improvement. Plus, it takes two to tango. If you don't want to discuss particular subjects, then how can there be an argument? Are they arguing out loud with themselves? Perhaps so, but then that's a topic about mental health.

Yes it takes two to Tango, and I do not tango with them, I rarely even talk to a Falang any where, except for about 4 or 5 I met on TV because we liked doing the same things and we converse about the things we like..

I just pick up my beer and move to a different seat, if they follow me, I tell them to leave me be before I re-arrange their facial features.

As I drink at the same bar all the time, usually the Thai staff will tell them to leave the other customers alone.

Cheers:

[Cats4ever]

I don't care if you are religious or not. If you are, don't try to convert me, please. Religions could pay their way, rather than tax bludging in most countries. Many politicians see a vote in pandering to religious people. I know many religious people who are GOOD people; I also know or observe many more who are first rate hypocrites. If you belive in The Man in the Sky (excellent Ricky Gervais movie), good. Please don't impose your beliefs on me; pay for your own beliefs, I am sick of chipping in.

[HOAX]

The only reason people in the West, are less religious now - are because of a increasing level of education.

Give the Thai's a better education, and they will call the BS.

What's BS about treating other people with respect?

What's BS about minding your speech?

What's BS about not killing other living beings?

Buddhism can teach most of us a lot of things that would probably help us live a better life. I can't actually see ONE thing about that I can call BS.

You don't need religion for any of what you said. Buddhism can teach us some useful things in life indeed, but nothing you cannot learn without religion. Buddhism contains ancient philosophy, much of which isn't suitable for the 21. century. The only really good thing about Buddhism is the social gatherings, which is both physically and psychologically healthy. But that's about it.

[maybefitz]

Thai Buddhism (really animism) is as far from the teachings of Buddha; as Roman Catholicism is from the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. I find the basic Buddhist teachings of spiritual growth and personal awareness (Dharma) very enlightening.As a secular humanist I can experience spiritual awareness, appreciation of beauty, love, kindness, simple lifestyle - without the mythological and supernatural belief structures built into all organised religions.

The Thais appear to be religious purely because they are not taught to think outside of 'the box', they are brainwashed from an early age to believe the hogwash that is served up to them, same as most poor muslim believers. Education and self- understanding is the key, to my mind.

[Nutcracker]

All religions and sundry belief systems which depend on the supernatural are under threat. It is simply a matter of education and only a matter of time before they die out and are replaced with "beliefs" based on evidence. How many prayers have to go unanswered before it is obvious nobody is listening. As for respect, how can you respect someone who believes in fairies? There is respect for his right to believe what he likes provided he keeps it to himself (and especially away from children)! Who was it who said "If a single person believes in fairies and talks to them out loud, he is stark raving bonkers and should be sectioned. But if there are a million people doing the same thing, they are religious and should be respected." There is no evidence that religious people are better than those who are not. Have you ever heard of an atheist who killed in order to force his life view on others? Buddhists are arguably one of the least aggressive groups but they have had their moments of violence too in the name of their "God". A quick look at history shows how every religion was invented and developed by men to control their fellow men. It is still the case ......... but it is on the way out and the quicker the better.

[tingtongteesood]

Like everything else here, most of it is just for appearances and the majority of people don't understand much, they just do it because everyone else does it. Sheep follow the flock.

[GrantSmith]

Well as a farang who was brought up on - digested, believed, lost interest and then regained it - christianity (protestant as opposed to catholicism) I didn't feel the pressures that the Roman Catholics feel, everything from waking up in the morning to blowing ones nose was a sin. Being a protestant lent itself to a fair bit more relaxed ideals - could shag before marriage without the threat of going to hell, could practise safe sex when out on the prowl without Peter standing at the Pearly Gates shaking his head whilst moving my name down the pecking order.

It was never rammed down my throat the way Catholicism and Islam were (at various stages throughout my life - I dated for a number of years a vietnamese catholic Australian girl, whose family were fairly rigid catholics and should it have eventuated that we married, I'd have found myself having to convert, this would have been a sticking point. The same for islam. I dated a few Malay women who - loosely - followed islam to the letter, and again the conversion would ultimately become a sticking point, should it have eventuated.)

Fortunately, I found myself dating and now married to a christian Thai, so no conversions - other than AUD to THB - were required. Yes there's the fanatics in our church now as there's always been, they're the most fun to play around with and challenge their beliefs and ideals. Say one thing in church and do another in life. It doesn't work that way, the old adage "practise what you preach" Fortunately for them, my Thai is not at the stage where I can challenge them enough and one has to be respectful of "face" but my wife knows as does my MiL via my wife my feelings on the matter and funnily enough the MiL agrees.

Live and let live I say. Don't ram your belief systems down my throat and I won't challenge them. For the most part, it works well. Probably not so much when my Thai is at conversing level and I can really get stuck into a discussion.

That being said, 2 things that should not be discussed at the pub: religion and politics. So hopefully the mods don't move this thread to the "pub" or "religion" forums

[bigbamboo]

It's all very well to worship religious deities but I've always thought the sun worshippers were the ones who had it right and I don't mean the ones who fry themselves on the beaches!

After all, if any of those gods people put so much faith in were proved to be false then mai pen rai.... life goes on.....but if the sun fails to show up one morning no one will have a prayer!

[pomchop]

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/religion

does your religion suck??

[phitsanulokjohn]

I've posted this a couple of times.Buddhism is not a religion.http://www.buddhanet.net/nutshell03.htm

[cpofc]

There are no athiests in foxholes.

[nami]

The only reason people in the West, are less religious now - are because of a increasing level of education.

Give the Thai's a better education, and they will call the BS.

What's BS about treating other people with respect?

What's BS about minding your speech?

What's BS about not killing other living beings?

Buddhism can teach most of us a lot of things that would probably help us live a better life. I can't actually see ONE thing about that I can call BS.

Do you really need a religion for being a decent human being? I don't need/want anyone to tell me what is good or bad because it is plain clear, just put respect in front of everything, dont do things you wouldn't like others do to you and try to help every time you can. Easy right? And can keep having sex without marriage, can be gay, can take drugs etc

Religions are the cancer of the world. I respect the people choice to practice them as long as they don't try to impose their views and beliefs to me. You see, funnily it looks like religious people are the ones without respect and think they have some kind of moral authority over the others.

And regarding the OP question, while I think Buddhism is probably the best religion in terms of freedom, it would never cross my kind to practice any religion ( although I go to temples and give alms for the monks sometimes, I just see it as a nice tradition).

I would rather give Islam a try than to give it to Catholicism. Being from a Catholic country and seeing all the disgusting stuff they have been doing for thousands of years it just make me sick. Yet still they still think they can teach something to us, maybe raping kids, stealing amd massacring indigenous people, or killing people with different beliefs... Great teachings!

[Frank James]

"I was an atheist for a while but I gave it up. No holidays!" --Jackie Mason

There seems to be a trend these last few years for professing atheists to be more aggressive in championing their point of view, and ridiculing those who believe in any sort of "non-scientific" religious doctrine. This is just as unattractive as the evangelists who push their various programs.

To each his own.

[sweatalot]

Before talking about it we should know what is religion?

What is it's purpose?

And do we need it?

Why should I believe in a God that somebody tells me is existing, but I cannot experience her/him?

Why should I fear that this guy one day will punish me for not believing?

And btw about the Christian God: What character is it to create beings, make them imperfect (=sinners) and then punish them for the misconstruction he/she made? Is it the faults of his creation or of the creator?

Back to the questions in the beginning:

Lenin said religion is opium for the people. Why? Because it gives other humans power over them and deludes them about this fact.

But oviously there is some need, something that humans seek in religion.

The Buddha gives an answer with 4 simple statements:

there is suffering in every life

the cause of the suffering is wanting (which leads to not getting what you want, getting what you do not want)

there is a way out of suffering

this way is being ethical (8 fold path, part of it is meditation=make your own experience)

I think everybody wants a happy, undisturbable life without low emotions like fear etc.

Normally this does not happen - at least not in a sufficient extent

So there is a need for help, be it from a god or the gods which means devotion and believe - but what if you are not experiencing any god? Only hear other people talk - and do these people have the ideal life?

Btw. somebody said: the humans create the god that they deserve

I think there is another way out: Improving yourself, Understanding, may be with help.

But the understanding, the experience can only be done by yourself.

This is, at least partially the way of spirituality.

Is God existing?

If I experience HIM/HER, yes.

But maybe this experience could show me he/she is not at all what any of the religions claim.

The Buddha eg tought meditation, and it is said that he attained his "superhuman" state by meditation.

He never claimed to be a god - nor did his contemporary followers

And now about the religiosity of most of the Thai ppl:

it is not what the buddha taught,

only in parts (which is useful for the buddhist clerus)

They live in fear and they understand the law of karma that if they did something bad

they have to do something good do remove the "bad karma". The easiest way is to go to the temple and offer something.

They can even do it in advance commiting their sin.

(The catholic church had the same which lead to the Reformation of Luther in Germany)

Even Buddhism which is an invaluable philosophy or spiritual teaching, not a religion, was made a religion and opium for the ppl.

Edited October 8, 2013 by sweatalot

[DoctorG]

There are no athiests in foxholes.

Stupid saying.

Have you ever been in a foxhole under attack? I have. I am an atheist, and I was not praying.

[Kananga]

"I was an atheist for a while but I gave it up. No holidays!" --Jackie Mason

There seems to be a trend these last few years for professing atheists to be more aggressive in championing their point of view, and ridiculing those who believe in any sort of "non-scientific" religious doctrine. This is just as unattractive as the evangelists who push their various programs.

To each his own.

The only difference being that the Atheists are actually right. And considering how the religious seem to be forcing their doctrines on others, schools and the state it is becoming necessary to repel these mythical idiots with more vocal means.

[Samaaw]

BIG WORD OF ADVICE: Leave your Thai partner to be faithful to their religion and do NOT get involved - do not pass remarks at them etc..

You don't have to attend the temples etc and you will see that Thai's normally do not push the point - I have also never experienced Thai's to ever push their religion down my throat - its tolerance !

Same applies to politics - steer well CLEAR

[mikebell]

Thai Buddhism can be summarised in three words, and that's probably why I like the concept.

"Up to you"

Or 'Money Number One.'

[Rorri]

No!!!

[gregk0543]

All religions and sundry belief systems which depend on the supernatural are under threat. It is simply a matter of education and only a matter of time before they die out and are replaced with "beliefs" based on evidence. How many prayers have to go unanswered before it is obvious nobody is listening. As for respect, how can you respect someone who believes in fairies? There is respect for his right to believe what he likes provided he keeps it to himself (and especially away from children)! Who was it who said "If a single person believes in fairies and talks to them out loud, he is stark raving bonkers and should be sectioned. But if there are a million people doing the same thing, they are religious and should be respected." There is no evidence that religious people are better than those who are not. Have you ever heard of an atheist who killed in order to force his life view on others? Buddhists are arguably one of the least aggressive groups but they have had their moments of violence too in the name of their "God". A quick look at history shows how every religion was invented and developed by men to control their fellow men. It is still the case ......... but it is on the way out and the quicker the better.

Good on you for thinking you way through these things. More people should think.

I would however like to point out that atheists fight wars too to convert others, it is was called communism.

As a Buddhist I like the idea that we create suffering in this world for ourselves and others because of our views.

All of us have views about what is right and wrong. Some want to force their views on others.

I find Buddhism deeper than other religions in its examination of human emotions and drives and views.

All of us seem to agree that it is wrong to kill. Yet some take up a religion or political view or any other view and think it is justified.

It is too easy to generalise without looking to the detail. We arent all the same. We have different views. Some of these views lead to suffering for ourselves and others. Some of these views complement each other, some work well in certain circumstances fail in others.

Views about heaven, views about hell, views about views.

I have learnt a lot from the different views of Thais, Burmese, and heaps of others. Most people would only have exposure to views from their own culture and they conform to them with certain variations.

The world is a tangle of views and what we see is the result good and bad. There seems no view that is immune to being used wrongly for the harm of others.

The question I have is: Is there a view that is correct and will not lead myself or others to harm? That if I undertake it will lead to happiness and peace for myself and others. That view is the one I seek. Within the layers of Buddhism I think the Buddha probably had that view and people followed him because they thought he had it not because anyone forced them.

And I would think that most people follow a view because they feel wrongly or rightly that it would lead to happiness.

We all need to step back a little and examine our views and why we believe in them.

[cpofc]

There are no athiests in foxholes.

Stupid saying.

Have you ever been in a foxhole under attack? I have. I am an atheist, and I was not praying.

No I haven't, and I am sorry if this often used common aphorism offended you, it certainly was not meant to.

from wiki....

The origin of the quotation is uncertain.

U. S. Military Chaplain William T. Cummings may have said it in a field sermon during the Battle of Bataan in 1942. Other sources credit Lieutenant Colonel Warren J. Clear, who was also at Bataan, or Lieutenant Colonel William Casey. But the phrase is most often attributed to war correspondent Ernie Pyle. It was also quoted by President Dwight D. Eisenhower in remarks broadcast from the White House as part of a February 7, 1954, American Legion Program.

While primarily used to comment on the experiences of combat soldiers, the aphorism has been adapted to other perilous situations, as in "There are no atheists in Probate Court". Although the adage occasionally means that all soldiers in combat are "converted" under fire, it is most often used to express the belief of the speaker that all people seek a divine power when they are facing an extreme threat. The quote is also referenced when discussing the opposite effect — that warfare causes some soldiers to question their existing belief in God due to the death and violence around them.

The quote has also been used in non-military contexts. In September 2008, in the depths of the financial crisis of 2007–2010, both Ben Bernanke and Paul Krugman popularized a version of the quote in reference to financial crises. They paraphrased Harvard professor Jeffrey Frankel, who originally wrote in the Cato Journal a year earlier, "They say 'there are no atheists in foxholes.' Perhaps, then, there are also no libertarians in crises." The sentence is also quoted in the Gustav Hasford's novel The Short-Timers.

Several atheist organizations object to the phrase. The Military Association of Atheists & Freethinkers has adopted the catch-phrase "Atheists in Foxholes" to emphasize that the original statement is just an aphorism and not a fact. The over 200 members of this organization publicly display their military service in order to show that there are atheists in foxholes, and on ships, and in planes. The religious convictions of current U.S. military personnel are similar to those of the general American population, though studies suggest that members of the military are slightly less religious. Department of Defense demographics show that "Atheist" is selected as a religious preference more than any non-Christian option. James Morrow has been quoted as saying "'There are no atheists in foxholes' isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes." Due to its opposition to the phrase, the Freedom From Religion Foundation has erected a monument to "Atheists in Foxholes".

A study by Oxford University psychologists suggests faith in the explanatory and revealing power of science increases in the face of stress or anxiety.

[jackw]

The main thing that Buddhism has going for it: is that it is more effective as a way of life,instead of a Religion. which it was never designed to be a religeon.

Recent happenings,that show up the corruption and greed,from those that would have us believe,in austerity,a simple life,and,poverty,is hard to believe,considering a relatively poor country has enough wealth to produce more than 15,000 Temples! which then gather in enough finances to continue to produce even more Temples. Compared with new Farang,Churches,Chapels, which are struggling to survive,how does it really compare?

Edit Apologies for under estimate of Temples in Thailand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Buddhist_temples_in_Thailand

You are correct but thai buddhism well isn't "pure" buddhism in the sense that they believe that the buddha is a supernatural being.

The minute you see "supernatural" well those farangs with their more advanced science think it's BS or at least a portion but growing portion of them think so.

Yet at the end of the day there are more ppl that believe in a religion than those that don't believe in one.

Don't you feel it's well fascinating that we have a nation of ppl that believe in a religion that isn't abramhamic in nature.

It's a Universal fact,the poorer and uneducated the people,the more they believe in Religeon, Worship,Magic,the Supernatural,Ghosts,Reincarnation,Soothsayers,etc etc. Gods gift to Crooks, Conmen,and Shysters. believe it or not I favour, Karma,not for any mystical reason,but it seems to have very good results without the help of anyone!

Actually, it's a universal fact that educated, urbane, cynics don't have fewer superstitions, taboos, and shibboleths than the poor and uneducated -- they just have different ones.

But don't confuse superstition with religion, or either with metaphysical systems or "spirituality".

Finally, according to the most recently published and broad-based studies, the fact is that, universally:

(1) Membership and participation in a religious congregation (e.g., a church or synagogue) INCREASES with socio-economic status, and

(2) Religious belief dominates the middle majority in terms of both education and socio-economic status, while Atheism/non-beleif and irreligion concentrates at the extremes among the least and most educated (High School dropouts and PhDs) and likewise among the richest and the poorest.

Edited October 8, 2013 by jackw

[northernjohn]

I agree with the OP western religions have to provide something extra to hold the congregation together, i.e Schools for the Children,extracuricular events/activities , councelling services,etc their power base has been eroding for decades,who would now believe in Heaven and Hell ? only poor countries,and the uneducated,and believers in ridiculous doctrines.

Not to start a war or a debate here but I can only speak with certainty for Catholicism. They do not teach that there is a hell. The system makes allowances for people to say what ever they want to say but unless it is under the words of the pope using his supposed infallibility which I believe has not been used in around 70 years it is not the sanctioned teaching. He has never used it to proclaim there is a hell. People will preach it as a fact but it is not so under the Catholic Church.

People remain clueless because they only learn from their friends. Yes there are those who actually studied the religion and other religions. These are the people who know. Not the ones who were told this is what you say.

How many people now realize that Martin Luther was rite according to today's Catholic church. How many people realize the church of England is very close to becoming a part of Catholicism perhaps like the Greek orthodox or the Russian orthodox.

How many people realize that what the Catholic church says can vary from diocese to diocese? How many people realize that the Catholic Church actually has not condemned birth control it is just the word of the pope who refuses to use his supposed infallibility.

I ramble but to give some facts in today's life the power of religion is real. How many people believe George Bush Jr would have been elected if he did not have religious people backing him. Look at the controversy in the US over abortion all religion backed. Look at the wars that have been fought with the Arab countries and Israel all religious in basses. The funny part is that the Jewish religion only recognizes the old testament with it's punishing God and it is also a part of the Koran. Neither religion recognizes the New Testament of a loving God.

For myself I had a Catholic upbringing and have not practiced the ceremonial part for years but try some times better than others some times not at all to live by the Christian rule of do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I freely admit there are some people in ordinary life I would not even attempt that with. It is just a part of being human.

I know my wife is Buddhist but to be honest I don't know if she prays to Buddha or just shows respect to him. I have noticed in her family that when passing a temple they will give a wah.

Not sure of the spelling of that.

Bottom line is religion is just a way of worshiping. I had a friend who was a Catholic priest and he said you can be very religious and not spiritual. But if you are spiritual you are religious. Maybe just a member of your own church. It was food for thought.

[dunque]

Snake, I was dating a Singaporean girl for quite a while when I was working there. Her Mother was extremely catholic. I felt so sorry for her as her Husband had divorced her the catholic church had her convinced she was going to hell.

That poor woman had no life, no friends, no future. All because some bloke in a white sheet had her convinced that an imaginary being has condemned her to hellfire and damnation.

Stick your religion where the sun don't shine pal.

Isn't Funny ? there are certain sins that will land you in hell, then later on as the church reforms these sins are not longer sins punishable with eternal damnation. For instance, eating a certain food on Friday will land you in hell, then later on eating the same food on Friday is now Ok

So I wonder, what happens to all the people that ate the certain food on Friday and went to hell? will they now be released? Perhaps with a "Sorry dude by bad"

Oh and an other thing, in an other religion when you go to heaven you will have a certain number of virgins,

ok so after a few times non of them would be a virgin, what do you do then? Would heaven become hell when they all start nagging you?

and Ok it is heaven for you because of the virgins but how about the virgins that have to put up with you? what is it to them?

Can heaven be hell for some people?and vice versa

To be fair, although I too do not subscribe to the specific elements of belief you mention, science has gone through similar transformations in the same time period.