McDonalds is healthy?

[robblok]

...

There is no quick and easy way that works, but it's not hard either. It takes some time and motivation to chose and prepare your meals (not talking about calorie counting), it takes some time and motivation to stay in a good shape and it takes time and motivation to lose fat.

It's not hard? OF COURSE it's hard. We're supposed to take your expertise, a person that has never been obese over obesity experts and the experience of many millions of obese people who have tried very hard for years and years, yet only a TINY PERCENTAGE achieve long term success short of surgery?

Again, it's hard. Pushing the specious meme that it's not hard for obese people to achieve long term success is not helpful to anyone. For the tiny percentage of previously obese people who are currently a decent weight, they will be working HARD at this for the rest of their lives to maintain that state, and statistically MOST will fail, massive will power or not.

It's similar to alcoholism that way. Once an alcohol always an alcoholic even if currently dry.

Another similarity to drinking. Imagine how daft and unfeeling it would be for a person who has never had a drinking problem telling a lifetime alcoholic how it's NOT HARD to just not have a drink. They really would have NO IDEA.

I also think it would very unusual for an obese person who has achieved long term success to say that what he has achieved is NOT HARD and that maintaining it is also NOT HARD.

Obesity experts said Taft’s experience highlights how very difficult it is for many fat people to lose substantial amounts of weight and keep it off, and how little progress has been made in finding a combination of foods that lead to permanent weight loss.

“Maybe we are looking for something that doesn’t exist,” said David B. Allison, the director of the Nutrition Obesity Research Center at the University of Alabama at Birmingham

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/15/health/in-struggle-with-weight-william-howard-taft-used-a-modern-diet.html?_r=1&

Another point I think worth mentioning is that given the massive failure rates of "diet" plans and given the medical fact that YOYO dieting (numerous big ups and big downs) causes objective damage to bodies, some obese people might be doing the rational and sensible thing NOT to get on that roller coaster. Personally I think most obese people SHOULD try but really trying is not without risk of causing more damage than NOT trying and I think people should be aware of that.

Ever heard of skinny fat people? That what I had became by the time I hit 30s. I radically changed my diet - watching every meal I ate, almost to the point of weighting up the food ingredients, on top of that I was on a thread mill 3-4 times a week 1 hr each session, I was pushing myself hard for about a year and I've achieved amazing results.

You said fat people work hard and most fail? Because they don't work hard enough. I unfortunately don't have any "before" pics, only "after" of what I have became after that one year...

JT does not like success stories, I have done the same but from fat to in shape and I had before and after pics.

I said it millions of time if your motivated and have the knowledge and money you can do it. I agree with much what you said. I had a skinny brother when younger.. the kind that did not have to take an x ray as you could see it all if you held him against the light.

Now he is fat.. why ... because of what he eats. JT does not like those kind of observations because its always outside sources that cause the problem never the person itself.

[robblok]

Every case is different. Congratulations on your success. I am talking about the mass of obese humanity, not the anecdotal experience of one person who was never obese, and certainly never an obese child. I think I would always trust actual medical experts in obesity over the anecdotal experience of one person. Obesity has a specific clinical definition in case you didn't know, and based on what you wrote before, you were never an obese person, so have not actually triumphed over obesity, but something else.

Yes JT we know you want an excuse to fail if you fail. You reason from a victim stance. Strange that Shurup and I have the same experiences with people getting fat because of what they eat.. and both of us turned it around with hard work.

I have only seen fat people really work out hard in the gym.. and guess what those that did lost weight. One of my training buddies was real overweight real big belly. I was 18 he was my age now in his 30ies, we worked out like crazy. It was great you just saw him loose his weight. He controlled his food and exercise and the results were there.

Its all quite possible.

[Jingthing]

Typical ploy -- personal attacks.

I am talking about statistics and it is not true that I don't like success stories. It's just there is a global problem if such a small percentage of obese people (not talking fat, not talking overweight) achieve long term success that makes BLAMING the "failed" obese as being morally deficient NOT THE POINT.

The point is that whatever people have been doing for the most part for the vast majority of obese people is not working and anything that can be done to increase the success rates is good.

And that includes changes in the FOOD INDUSTRY.

[Jingthing]

...

I have only seen fat people really work out hard in the gym.. and guess what those that did lost weight. One of my training buddies was real overweight real big belly. I was 18 he was my age now in his 30ies, we worked out like crazy. It was great you just saw him loose his weight. He controlled his food and exercise and the results were there.

Its all quite possible.

Now this story is absurd and TWISTED because anyone knowledgeable about the big picture of obesity knows the LOSING WEIGHT part of it is NOT predictive of LONG TERM success. Again, the statistics do not lie, most of those people you see losing weight will fail as well and most of them will end up even fatter than when they started. Don't be afraid of the facts. Of course a big weight loss is to be congratulated, but for the obese who achieve that, they are up for a lifetime struggle to maintain, and statistically, most will fail, again those are the facts.

Edited October 26, 2013 by Jingthing

[robblok]

Typical ploy -- personal attacks.

I am talking about statistics and it is not true that I don't like success stories. It's just there is a global problem if such a small percentage of obese people (not talking fat, not talking overweight) achieve long term success that makes BLAMING the "failed" obese as being morally deficient NOT THE POINT.

The point is that whatever people have been doing for the most part for the vast majority of obese people is not working and anything that can be done to increase the success rates is good.

And that includes changes in the FOOD INDUSTRY.

No you just don't like admitting that people can turn it around if they are dedicated and want to make a change. You love to lie the blame somewhere else.

Once you know what is bad for you you just dont buy that from the FOOD INDUSTRY.

Education that is what is needed, once people know what is bad and what should be done.. exercise and changing their eating habits and they still don't do it they are to blame.

[robblok]

...

I have only seen fat people really work out hard in the gym.. and guess what those that did lost weight. One of my training buddies was real overweight real big belly. I was 18 he was my age now in his 30ies, we worked out like crazy. It was great you just saw him loose his weight. He controlled his food and exercise and the results were there.

Its all quite possible.

Now this story is absurd and TWISTED because anyone knowledgeable about the big picture of obesity knows the LOSING WEIGHT part of it is NOT predictive of LONG TERM success. Again, the statistics do not lie, most of those people you see losing weight will fail as well and most of them will end up even fatter than when they started. Don't be afraid of the facts. Of course a big weight loss is to be congratulated, but for the obese who achieve that, they are up for a lifetime struggle to maintain, and statistically, most will fail, again those are the facts.

JT only because they fall back in their bad habits, those that are dedicated and keep things in check don't fall back.

Do you want the food industry stop to sell crap .. then just don't buy it. If more people wanted healthy stuff then it would be there.

[Jingthing]

...

No you just don't like admitting that people can turn it around if they are dedicated and want to make a change. You love to lie the blame somewhere else.

Once you know what is bad for you you just dont buy that from the FOOD INDUSTRY.

Education that is what is needed, once people know what is bad and what should be done.. exercise and changing their eating habits and they still don't do it they are to blame.

I agree with the value of education but it's very elitist to assume everyone is going to get that education without a nudge from society and the food industry (who is NOT interested). Obesity as I've said many times is a multi-faceted problem with multi-faceted potential solutions. I'll ignore your obnoxious personal attacks. Of course a small minority of obese people have achieved long term success, but the vast majority don't, so anything and everything that helps increase the percentage of successes is good by me!

Edited October 26, 2013 by Jingthing

[Forethat]

Miles Davis

[Jingthing]

JT only because they fall back in their bad habits, those that are dedicated and keep things in check don't fall back.

Do you want the food industry stop to sell crap .. then just don't buy it. If more people wanted healthy stuff then it would be there.

This is the core of our disagreement. Your ENTIRE argument is based on morality. I think the reasons for failure are MUCH more complex and of course vary greatly between individuals. You call that excuses. I call it not being simple minded.

Edited October 26, 2013 by Jingthing

[Shurup]

...

I have only seen fat people really work out hard in the gym.. and guess what those that did lost weight. One of my training buddies was real overweight real big belly. I was 18 he was my age now in his 30ies, we worked out like crazy. It was great you just saw him loose his weight. He controlled his food and exercise and the results were there.

Its all quite possible.

Now this story is absurd and TWISTED because anyone knowledgeable about the big picture of obesity knows the LOSING WEIGHT part of it is NOT predictive of LONG TERM success. Again, the statistics do not lie, most of those people you see losing weight will fail as well and most of them will end up even fatter than when they started. Don't be afraid of the facts. Of course a big weight loss is to be congratulated, but for the obese who achieve that, they are up for a lifetime struggle to maintain, and statistically, most will fail, again those are the facts.

The fact is, you don't have enough knowledge on the subject. Statistically most who try to loose weight, starve themselves in the process loosing the precious muscle mass and slowing their metabolism. Statistically every starving case failed and statistically a person ends up fatter than before because: a) no one can live on hugely reduced calorific intake, returning to their previous calorific intake (which was too much to start with), now makes they get even fatter due to the slower metabolism. This is the quick and easy I was talking about...

[laolover88]

As I recall Ray Kroc made more money out of property deals than burgers....look this up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_McDonald's

[Jingthing]

The fact is, you don't have enough knowledge on the subject. Statistically most who try to loose weight, starve themselves in the process loosing the precious muscle mass and slowing their metabolism. Statistically every starving case failed and statistically a person ends up fatter than before because: a) no one can live on hugely reduced calorific intake, returning to their previous calorific intake (which was too much to start with), now makes they get even fatter due to the slower metabolism. This is the quick and easy I was talking about...

I agree with you 100 percent that "crash diets" are a very bad idea and people who lose weight with them are even more likely to not achieve long term success. But sorry, the statistics I've talked about are for ALL obese people, and again the vast majority do fail in ever achieving long term success, crash diets or not. I agree avoiding crash diets increases the odds of being in the small percentage of long term success against obesity.

In general, my view is that the few that succeed focus on LIFETIME changes in eating food that promotes their health (healthier choices and portion control), mostly avoid obvious cruddy food choices, avoid the very concept of DIET crash or otherwise, do at least moderate exercise, and consciously accept they are in for a LIFETIME struggle to try to prevent relapse. Relaxing too much after weight loss success is a problem.

I don't think my view on what CAN succeed is very different from people who want to play the morality blame game against fat people. We likely agree 80 to 90 percent on most other stuff.

Edited October 26, 2013 by Jingthing

[robblok]

The fact is, you don't have enough knowledge on the subject. Statistically most who try to loose weight, starve themselves in the process loosing the precious muscle mass and slowing their metabolism. Statistically every starving case failed and statistically a person ends up fatter than before because: a) no one can live on hugely reduced calorific intake, returning to their previous calorific intake (which was too much to start with), now makes they get even fatter due to the slower metabolism. This is the quick and easy I was talking about...

I agree with you 100 percent that "crash diets" are a very bad idea and people who lose weight with them are even more likely to not achieve long term success. But sorry, the statistics I've talked about are for ALL obese people, and again the vast majority do fail in ever achieving long term success, crash diets or not. I agree avoiding crash diets increases the odds of being in the small percentage of long term success against obesity.

In general, my view is that the few that succeed focus on LIFETIME changes in eating food that promotes their health (healthier choices and portion control), mostly avoid obvious cruddy food choices, avoid the very concept of DIET crash or otherwise, do at least moderate exercise, and consciously accept they are in for a LIFETIME struggle to try to prevent relapse. Relaxing too much after weight loss success is a problem.

I don't think my view on what CAN succeed is very different from people who want to play the morality blame game against fat people. We likely agree 80 to 90 percent on most other stuff.

We just look at things differently you blame outside factors, i agree the outside factors are there but don't put all the blame there.

We agree, those that succeed focus on lifetime changes because that is what is needed. That is also the problem as a lifetime is a long time and in general the other foods are nicer. Also exercise is needed but few do the amount that is needed.

Now how to do that lifetime, you are blaming the food industry do you want them to stop making nice food and only have healthy food ? sounds a bit too much for me. Do you want them to stop market their food.. what do you want them to do ?

In my country they wanted to tax unhealthy food... it met with fierce resistance (as it should as its a choice)

[Jingthing]

Oy vey. I never ever said all of the blame was on external factors. I do think focusing on shaming fatties is not helpful and only adds fuel to bigotry.

Sent from my GT-S5360B using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[robblok]

Oy vey. I never ever said all of the blame was on external factors. I do think focusing on shaming fatties is not helpful and only adds fuel to bigotry.

Sent from my GT-S5360B using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

You feel that putting the blame there is shaming them ? I never confront obese persons on their weight why would I. It is none of my business. The only exception was the family of my wife because I had health concerns.

I don't care to shame them why would, shame is something else as blaming them that they are part of the problem.

Only time I ever have a problem with obese persons is those saying they tried it all but can't seem to loose it only to eat all the wrong foods and quantity. Otherwise.. their life their problem.

[Jingthing]

Yes. Focusing on suggesting all obese people lack self control is indeed an insidious way of shaming them. You are doing that here.

Sent from my GT-S5360B using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[ToddWeston]

Oy vey. I never ever said all of the blame was on external factors. I do think focusing on shaming fatties is not helpful and only adds fuel to bigotry.

Sent from my GT-S5360B using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

You feel that putting the blame there is shaming them ? I never confront obese persons on their weight why would I. It is none of my business. The only exception was the family of my wife because I had health concerns.

I don't care to shame them why would, shame is something else as blaming them that they are part of the problem.

Only time I ever have a problem with obese persons is those saying they tried it all but can't seem to loose it only to eat all the wrong foods and quantity. Otherwise.. their life their problem.

I agree often it's not worth it either, they've chosen to live an unhealthy lifestyle it is their choice, family and friends though I think need as much encouragement as possible. I do know that those of us with socialised medicine in our home country's the government is taking a stronger approach.

Krispy Kreme entered the Canadian market and dwindled down to a few shoppes because of the constant news about the caloric intake in one doughnut.

If we look how society has turned on smokers another habit forming behaviour & addiction for many they've been shunned and taxed beyond belief, I don't recall the smokers calling everyone anti smoke - bigots. Now obesity costs our medical system more than all smoking related disease.

No clear answers but to help the ones we care about.

[robblok]

Yes. Focusing on suggesting all obese people lack self control is indeed an insidious way of shaming them. You are doing that here.

Sent from my GT-S5360B using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

In your opinion.. thank god that is not the only opinion that count.

I see it as facts they are part of the problem.

[A1Str8]

According to its owners it is. But I am wondering why they don't eat that shit if it's so healthy. They should stop advertising it and start eating it. 10 years later I am going to get back to them to see if they are doing alright.

Edited October 26, 2013 by A1Str8

[Prbkk]

That is interesting re Krispy Kreme and Canada. When they first opened in Sydney you could see people at the airport carrying boxes onto planes going to places without the stores. Now I don't think there are any shops left in Australia but I could be wrong. MacDonalds has been shamed into introducing some healthier options in many counties but not Thailand. Vietnam has it's first store....owned by the son of the PM

T

quote name="ToddWeston" post="6966695" timestamp="1382788243"]

Oy vey. I never ever said all of the blame was on external factors. I do think focusing on shaming fatties is not helpful and only adds fuel to bigotry.

Sent from my GT-S5360B using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

You feel that putting the blame there is shaming them ? I never confront obese persons on their weight why would I. It is none of my business. The only exception was the family of my wife because I had health concerns.

I don't care to shame them why would, shame is something else as blaming them that they are part of the problem.

Only time I ever have a problem with obese persons is those saying they tried it all but can't seem to loose it only to eat all the wrong foods and quantity. Otherwise.. their life their problem.

I agree often it's not worth it either, they've chosen to live an unhealthy lifestyle it is their choice, family and friends though I think need as much encouragement as possible. I do know that those of us with socialised medicine in our home country's the government is taking a stronger approach.

Krispy Kreme entered the Canadian market and dwindled down to a few shoppes because of the constant news about the caloric intake in one doughnut.

If we look how society has turned on smokers another habit forming behaviour & addiction for many they've been shunned and taxed beyond belief, I don't recall the smokers calling everyone anti smoke - bigots. Now obesity costs our medical system more than all smoking related disease.

No clear answers but to help the ones we care about.

[robblok]

Oy vey. I never ever said all of the blame was on external factors. I do think focusing on shaming fatties is not helpful and only adds fuel to bigotry.

Sent from my GT-S5360B using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

You feel that putting the blame there is shaming them ? I never confront obese persons on their weight why would I. It is none of my business. The only exception was the family of my wife because I had health concerns.

I don't care to shame them why would, shame is something else as blaming them that they are part of the problem.

Only time I ever have a problem with obese persons is those saying they tried it all but can't seem to loose it only to eat all the wrong foods and quantity. Otherwise.. their life their problem.

I agree often it's not worth it either, they've chosen to live an unhealthy lifestyle it is their choice, family and friends though I think need as much encouragement as possible. I do know that those of us with socialised medicine in our home country's the government is taking a stronger approach.

Krispy Kreme entered the Canadian market and dwindled down to a few shoppes because of the constant news about the caloric intake in one doughnut.

If we look how society has turned on smokers another habit forming behaviour & addiction for many they've been shunned and taxed beyond belief, I don't recall the smokers calling everyone anti smoke - bigots. Now obesity costs our medical system more than all smoking related disease.

No clear answers but to help the ones we care about.

It seems that shaming (the shop and in a way its consumers) does work then seems to go against what JT is saying.

[Jingthing]

Oy vey. I never ever said all of the blame was on external factors. I do think focusing on shaming fatties is not helpful and only adds fuel to bigotry.

Sent from my GT-S5360B using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

You feel that putting the blame there is shaming them ? I never confront obese persons on their weight why would I. It is none of my business. The only exception was the family of my wife because I had health concerns.

I don't care to shame them why would, shame is something else as blaming them that they are part of the problem.

Only time I ever have a problem with obese persons is those saying they tried it all but can't seem to loose it only to eat all the wrong foods and quantity. Otherwise.. their life their problem.

I agree often it's not worth it either, they've chosen to live an unhealthy lifestyle it is their choice, family and friends though I think need as much encouragement as possible. I do know that those of us with socialised medicine in our home country's the government is taking a stronger approach.

Krispy Kreme entered the Canadian market and dwindled down to a few shoppes because of the constant news about the caloric intake in one doughnut.

If we look how society has turned on smokers another habit forming behaviour & addiction for many they've been shunned and taxed beyond belief, I don't recall the smokers calling everyone anti smoke - bigots. Now obesity costs our medical system more than all smoking related disease.

No clear answers but to help the ones we care about.

It seems that shaming (the shop and in a way its consumers) does work then seems to go against what JT is saying.

This is getting annoying. You manufacture fictional arguments that I never made then oppose them. Dude, I am FOR massive consumer information on unhealthy foods. I would love to see graphic disease images pictures posted at all donut shops, etc. I am FOR massive taxation on super sugar products. I am FOR economic incentives for healthier products. Recently in the U.S. they are writing prescriptions and giving credits for buying fresh fruits and veg. BRAVO! That is NOT shaming. Those are positive helpful supportive measures. Nobody here is talking about fat pride or fat is beautiful because we agree it is NOT desirable and not lovely. Your thing is to push this meme that people are justified to look at every fat person on the street and assume they have no self control when in reality, which actual scientists know, there are many complex factors that go into their current body state, external and internal. So pushing this moral superiority dance that you assume because you have succeeded (even over obesity? you never said precisely) promotes unfair bigotry against many people when you have NO IDEA about the level of self control they ACTUALLY have. Let's break it down dude. An obese person may be exercising massive self control yet still obese but the thin man next to him may be eating like a pig. Correct it's not fair, that's life. ALSO correct it's not fair to DISRESPECT fat people as a class when you don't have a clue about their INDIVIDUAL situation in all it's complexities, internally and externally. It's immoral actually.

Edited October 26, 2013 by Jingthing

[robblok]

You feel that putting the blame there is shaming them ? I never confront obese persons on their weight why would I. It is none of my business. The only exception was the family of my wife because I had health concerns.

I don't care to shame them why would, shame is something else as blaming them that they are part of the problem.

Only time I ever have a problem with obese persons is those saying they tried it all but can't seem to loose it only to eat all the wrong foods and quantity. Otherwise.. their life their problem.

I agree often it's not worth it either, they've chosen to live an unhealthy lifestyle it is their choice, family and friends though I think need as much encouragement as possible. I do know that those of us with socialised medicine in our home country's the government is taking a stronger approach.

Krispy Kreme entered the Canadian market and dwindled down to a few shoppes because of the constant news about the caloric intake in one doughnut.

If we look how society has turned on smokers another habit forming behaviour & addiction for many they've been shunned and taxed beyond belief, I don't recall the smokers calling everyone anti smoke - bigots. Now obesity costs our medical system more than all smoking related disease.

No clear answers but to help the ones we care about.

It seems that shaming (the shop and in a way its consumers) does work then seems to go against what JT is saying.

This is getting annoying. You manufacture fictional arguments that I never made then oppose them. Dude, I am FOR massive consumer information on unhealthy foods. I would love to see graphic disease images pictures posted at all donut shops, etc. I am FOR massive taxation on super sugar products. I am FOR economic incentives for healthier products. Recently in the U.S. they are writing prescriptions and giving credits for buying fresh fruits and veg. BRAVO! That is NOT shaming. Those are positive helpful supportive measures. Nobody here is talking about fat pride or fat is beautiful because we agree it is NOT desirable and not lovely. Your thing is to push this meme that people are justified to look at every fat person on the street and assume they have no self control when in reality, which actual scientists know, there are many complex factors that go into their current body state, external and internal. So pushing this moral superiority dance that you assume because you have succeeded (even over obesity? you never said precisely) promotes unfair bigotry against many people when you have NO IDEA about the level of self control they ACTUALLY have. Let's break it down dude. An obese person may be exercising massive self control yet still obese but the thin man next to him may be eating like a pig. Correct it's not fair, that's life. ALSO correct it's not fair to DISRESPECT fat people as a class when you don't have a clue about their INDIVIDUAL situation in all it's complexities, internally and externally. It's immoral actually.

You are constantly pushing that its not about the person itself. Now the bad food companies are shamed into getting better food and then its ok. Why is that different from shaming PEOPLE into eating better food.

You are are annoying too you keep telling me how I look down on fat people because I feel that they are partly to blame while that is absolutely not the case. I could not care less, but they are part of the problem its not all outside sources making them the way they are.

You keep telling me about moral things ect ect. That bores me too you seem to be allowed to use words like bigots ect ect. All I am saying is that people can turn this around themselves by eating right and exercising that they are part to blame by not eating the right stuff and getting enough exercise.

I don't look down on them.. just stating facts that if they exercise and eat the right stuff they loose weight.

[Jingthing]

Of course there is bigotry involved in how societies view fat people.

If you see a random fat person on the street and assume that person lacks self control (they might, they might not) that is bigotry by definition. The fact of their appearance does NOT prove that prejudice.

It is no different really than seeing a Muslim person on the street and assuming they are linked to terrorism.

People who push push push this fat people are only fat because they have weak control are throwing fuel on the fire of social disdain of fat people.

It's used as an excuse for the bigotry. It's all their fault, we can shun them because they did this to themselves. This done without knowing one thing about the details of their lives EXCEPT their appearance.

Fat people ALREADY are socially unpopular and considered ugly. They need compassion and support not spewing of UNTRUE stereotypes. The comic book example of a fat person with candy in his mouth at all times was classic. What percentage of fat people do you reckon actually fit that loaded description? Yes fat people need to find the motivation within themselves to help themselves for the hard work ahead (among the many other things they would need to do to solve the problem long term), but social shaming and stigmatization does not help with that, it generally tends to make fat people more depressed and feeling more hopeless.

If people really want to help more fat people succeed in improving their lives, show them RESPECT as a class of human beings as a beginning step. People do not make bigoted judgments based on very superficial information about people they respect, but they DO make such judgments about people they do NOT respect.

Edited October 26, 2013 by Jingthing

[ToddWeston]

Oy vey. I never ever said all of the blame was on external factors. I do think focusing on shaming fatties is not helpful and only adds fuel to bigotry.

Sent from my GT-S5360B using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

You feel that putting the blame there is shaming them ? I never confront obese persons on their weight why would I. It is none of my business. The only exception was the family of my wife because I had health concerns.

I don't care to shame them why would, shame is something else as blaming them that they are part of the problem.

Only time I ever have a problem with obese persons is those saying they tried it all but can't seem to loose it only to eat all the wrong foods and quantity. Otherwise.. their life their problem.

I agree often it's not worth it either, they've chosen to live an unhealthy lifestyle it is their choice, family and friends though I think need as much encouragement as possible. I do know that those of us with socialised medicine in our home country's the government is taking a stronger approach.

Krispy Kreme entered the Canadian market and dwindled down to a few shoppes because of the constant news about the caloric intake in one doughnut.

If we look how society has turned on smokers another habit forming behaviour & addiction for many they've been shunned and taxed beyond belief, I don't recall the smokers calling everyone anti smoke - bigots. Now obesity costs our medical system more than all smoking related disease.

No clear answers but to help the ones we care about.

It seems that shaming (the shop and in a way its consumers) does work then seems to go against what JT is saying.

Absolutely, Jamie Oliver went on a campaign to shame school lunches in the USA and had some success.

It is not bigotry it is an opinion, I/we need these dollars in our health care system to treat real disease, if caloric intake was lowered by even 10% it's a start. Food packaging was supposed to be the answer, we see how well that worked. When an airline charges a fattie for two seats is it bigotry ? no way.

It's exhausting always wanting to put the blame on big tobacco, big Pharma, Big Agra, big restauranters - each are part of the problem and could be part of the solution but why wait. How many fatties have a pedometer ? and actually walk 10,000 steps a day ? that's research I'd like to see, it's part of the education process which we are responsible to provide and they are responsible to at least make the attempt & learn carrot cake isn't part of your daily five.

I don't dislike fatties in fact I care - why anyone would allow weight to have so much control over their lives is beyond me, looking at the hostility they certainly wouldn't allow any human this much control yet they allow food to take precious years off their lives.

Now the medical profession is being backed into a corner with it being classed as a disease and will do more harm than good IMO, medical professionals will be less forthright in tackling the elephant in the room (pardon the pun). I'm hopeful the vast majority will just get on with it like they've been doing, buying diet books, going to the gym, lifting weights, walking everyday, lowering intake, eating rabbit food et al - these few that are vocal do not represent the entire obese segment of society thankfully - millions have lost weight and live a healthy life.

Edited October 26, 2013 by ToddWeston

[Jingthing]

Buying diet books?
Are you having a laugh?

The entire "diet" industry is based on the fantastic business model that diets don't work!

If their plans succeeded to any significant degree they would be out of business.

So the typical fat customer will be a customer of that "diet industry" for life.

For people who don't get this concept, I suggest again the excellent t.v. documentary: The Men Who Made Us Thin.

I agree the disease model of obesity is a double edged sword but for different reasons. It will allow doctors to economically justify spending more time counseling their obese patients and offering any therapies that are possible today (sadly very limited except for very obese people and surgery). It's also an incentive for industry to do more medical RESEARCH that potentially could reap revolutionary therapies related perhaps to stomach bacteria, leptin processing, genetic tweaking, and non-invasive bariatric devices. That's the good part. The bad part is labeling the obese as having a disease. That is an ADDITIONAL social stigma on a group that already suffers severe social stigmatization and indeed bigotry. Obesity puts people at high risk for some other diseases but to call obesity itself a disease is most likely a social construct. On the other hand for many more of the obese than most people think, there clearly IS a medical aspect to their condition to some or a great degree. It's not only thyroids, there's a lot more to it as obesity specialists ALREADY know.

Edited October 26, 2013 by Jingthing

[ToddWeston]

Buying diet books?

Are you having a laugh?

The entire "diet" industry is based on the fantastic business model that diets don't work!

If their plans succeeded to any significant degree they would be out of business.

So the typical fat customer will be a customer of that "diet industry" for life.

For people who don't get this concept, I suggest again the excellent t.v. documentary: The Men Who Made Us Thin.

I agree the disease model of obesity is a double edged sword but for different reasons. It will allow doctors to economically justify spending more time counseling their obese patients and offering any therapies that are possible today (sadly very limited except for very obese people and surgery). It's also an incentive for industry to do more medical RESEARCH that potentially could reap revolutionary therapies related perhaps to stomach bacteria, leptin processing, genetic tweaking, and non-invasive bariatric devices. That's the good part. The bad part is labeling the obese as having a disease. Obesity puts people at high risk for some other diseases but to call obesity itself a disease is most likely a social construct.

JT I'm not debating with you anymore ....... you're not bringing anything new to the discussion it's your position, fine. I've counselled thousands of patients in my years - perhaps it's the white lab coat most listen and appreciate the advice and hopefully do something about it.

As a medical professional in a socialised medical enviroment to incent me for doing my job is wrong, all patients are equals and one group should not expect more especially when science is on our side as to the cure.

[Jingthing]

...

As a medical professional in a socialised medical enviroment to incent me for doing my job is wrong, all patients are equals and one group should not expect more especially when science is on our side as to the cure.

You work for the national health, right? Not all systems are like that. Some require economic justification to spend any time on patients problems. The US system is of course like that and Obamacare does not change that. In such systems docs can't justify spending ANY TIME on something that is not a disease. You get this, right? Economics is linked to all of this, of course, can't be avoided. I am not defending the U.S. system and systems like it, it's crap, but people have to work with what they have and is possible. Yes in the U.S. this is clearly LARGELY why obesity has been classified as a disease, so that doctors working on it can be PAID and also of course a recognition of the huge disease consequences of obesity for the masses as well as the crippling COSTS of this epidemic. A solution that helps many more people is literally a matter of life and death, and that's what the RESEARCH is for. Peddling the tired old "will power" pill is all well and good, but this has been done for many decades now and the result percentages of long term success have not improved; instead the prevalence of the obese gets bigger and bigger and is now a global issue. When something isn't working for most people, it's rational to CHANGE the approach, yes?

On the disease model, I actually don't think even most obesity specialists who lobby for the disease label actually believe obesity is objectively a disease. But labeling it a disease is seen as having potentially positive impact on more effective solutions to obesity that COULD reduce the other literal diseases that obesity sets people up for.

Edited October 26, 2013 by Jingthing

[robblok]

JT

My dad is overweight.. i love him with all my heart. He has biked 6000km this year so far. His heart medicine isnt helping him, plus his diet is bad. I have seen it its not that much that he eats but the wrong things. Actually in all the cases that I know of overweight people its because what they eat. I have not come across one person who has a healthy diet and got obese. Do you personally know people without underlying health conditions that get fat on a healthy food program and exercise ?

I have nothing against obese people. You are talking in generalities and so am I you will have to do that in a discussion. I think its safe to say for every overweight person that does all he can to loose weight there are 5 or more that don't.

I don't look at obese people badly I am merely giving my justified opinion on how it gets this way. The only few times that I think a little badly or maybe with pitty is when i see the ones that can only walk 200 meters and then have to stop to catch their breath. Then I think by myself how the ... did they let it go this far. Otherwise I dont really care, for them weightloss is just not a priority. Even my dad could loose his weight if he really went for it. But it is just not a priority for him he likes his life this way.

[Shurup]

I would like to ask a few obese people to HONESTLY post the list of foods they have had in the past week, not even the quantities of foods, just the list. I'm sure the answer will be right there...

JT, you keep blaming the food industries, I agree there're a lot of junk food manufacturers out there, but you know what? No one if pushing doughnuts down my throat. Choices are out there, choose wisely. You and only you have the power to chose what and how much to consume.

The attached BFFM file was my bible during that year I mentioned earlier. I didn't follow its every advice, like I said I didn't bother weighting up foods' ingredients, I didn't bother eating 6 smaller meals instead of my regular 3 meals, there are many points in there we can have dozens pages of debates about... What it did is help me make right food choices, which, combined with lots of exercise, made me the way I am today, not just physically but it gave me the right mentality to eat right, I don't need to think anymore about what to eat, it's all in my subconscious mind now.

This is a tool, up to you guys if you want to use it or not.

I'm out of here, this topic is going nowhere...

BFFM.pdf