Germans Get a New Third Gender Option at Birth

[Lite Beer]

Germans Get a New Third Gender Option at Birth
First country to do so

By Kharunya Paramaguru

A new law in Germany is opening the door for parents to register their newborn children as something other than male or female.

Starting Nov. 1, German parents will be able to register their children as being of indeterminate sex if their babies show intersex characteristics. The move makes Germany the first European country to effectively recognize an intersex option on birth certificates, Deutsche Welle reports.

German parents previously have sometimes had to approve surgery to adjust the physical characteristics of their baby to be able to register it as a boy or a girl.

Read more: Germany's Third Gender Option | TIME.com http://world.time.com/2013/11/01/germans-get-a-new-third-gender-option-at-birth/#ixzz2jP1MxKZI

--Time World 2013-11-01

[ezzra]

And I always thought that a third gender is a Hermaphrodite person...

[BudRight]

'First country' here could also be 'only country.' It would also carry opposite bias.

[NeverSure]

What a sad thing but it happens. I don't know the answer. I really don't. Best wishes for the child and the parents.

[Bkungbank]

Cloning have bright and dark side on it,hope it was not ' It ' coming out in hospital bed . I personally against turning human gene into something as human try to play role like God.

[Jingthing]

This is an enlightened policy and hopefully a model for many other countries. However, nations should also include early education programs to promote tolerance and prevent bullying against sexually different people -- transgender, indeterminate gender, minority sexual orientation, etc.

[tigermonkey]

And I always thought that a third gender is a Hermaphrodite person...

Actually the term hermaphrodite is specious at best when applied to humans. An hermapgrodite has fully developed/functional male and female organs by definition; there has never been such a human in history. The more realistic term "intersex" is used in place of the middle-ages term "hermaphrodite" Edited November 2, 2013 by tigermonkey

[tigermonkey]

This is an enlightened policy and hopefully a model for many other countries. However, nations should also include early education programs to promote tolerance and prevent bullying against sexually different people -- transgender, indeterminate gender, minority sexual orientation, etc.

I agree about "early education programs" but it will take time, persistence and patience to make any progress. Such programs which I have already seen instituted in various parts of the world have met with staunch opposition. The world will not easily give up their socially driven definitions of male and female; there is a deep rooted fear of treading outside these norms.

My peers in the medical profession are amongst the most immovable. This new German initiative is aimed directly at them, and offers a chance to as many as 1% of live births to not be mutilated at birth, according to some cruel socially driven agenda.

[jbrain]

I didn't know that a newborn baby could show any symptoms about the direction his/her future sex life will take.

[Jingthing]

I didn't know that a newborn baby could show any symptoms about the direction his/her future sex life will take.

If you're talking about physical genital structures obviously that can be observed. If you're talking about future sexual orientation or gender identity variances when the genitals are clear, there likely isn't much available now to determine that or really any great socially beneficial reason to know. There are of course a number of theories going about the role of genetics in such things, but the science on such things is not fully baked.

[NeverSure]

Those of us who have no experience should be very careful and very tolerant. I don't understand any of it, but one of my favorite people is a nephew who is gay. He is handsome, fun and brilliant. He was for years a dancer for Celine Dion in Vegas. He was part of the troupe and traveled with her too.

I know that gay isn't the topic here, but tolerance is, and he taught me a lot about what a wonderful guy he is, and that one can't predict what will happen when a child is born. Every person should be loved as he is and not made to feel different. Every child should be allowed to find his own way.

[jbrain]

I didn't know that a newborn baby could show any symptoms about the direction his/her future sex life will take.

If you're talking about physical genital structures obviously that can be observed. If you're talking about future sexual orientation or gender identity variances when the genitals are clear, there likely isn't much available now to determine that or really any great socially beneficial reason to know. There are of course a number of theories going about the role of genetics in such things, but the science on such things is not fully baked.

That is exactly my understanding, though better worded by you,. So what is the point of having the third gender option ?

A newborn will have either a penis or a vagina, and I'm not aware of any having both .

[Jingthing]

No, some babies have ambiguous stuff going on down there. Experience has shown as such people grow up they tend to INTERNALLY feel one sex or the other even if their parents made the mistake of choosing the wrong sex and made a surgical alteration. That's why it is very humane to WAIT in these cases and see what gender the child actually thinks he/she is. My understanding is that tends to happen fairly early, so in those cases, the gender could be legally changed to male or female at that time of awareness. Obviously, this is a messy situation both biologically and socially, and more will be learned over time how children react to being labelled with no set gender. We already DO KNOW however that it is quite tragic to be labeled the wrong gender and to have a surgical alteration done so early.

Edited November 2, 2013 by Jingthing

[simple1]

As some may recall the Australian authorities have stated to go down this path, at least with gender ID with passports and consideration of use with birth certificates.

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2011/09/15/new-passports-allow-third-gender

[Scott]

A troll post and reply has been deleted.

[transam]

One can only be born male or female, thats it. How parents or whoever decides otherwise seems crazy. What ever their sexual orientation turns out to be once puberty kicks in is another thing.

[Jingthing]

One can only be born male or female, thats it. How parents or whoever decides otherwise seems crazy. What ever their sexual orientation turns out to be once puberty kicks in is another thing.

Sorry but you are incorrect purely from a clinical medical pov. Sometimes a clear sex cannot be seen at birth.

Sent from my GT-S5360B using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[pacovl46]

And I always thought that a third gender is a Hermaphrodite person...

It is. That's exactly the reason why the new status is undetermined because you can't possibly know beforehand whether a hermaphrodite will turn out to be more female or male looking.

[transam]

One can only be born male or female, thats it. How parents or whoever decides otherwise seems crazy. What ever their sexual orientation turns out to be once puberty kicks in is another thing.

Sorry but you are incorrect purely from a clinical medical pov. Sometimes a clear sex cannot be seen at birth.

Sent from my GT-S5360B using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Hmmmmmm, well I was born with a todger, mum and dad said ''IT'S A BOY'', think the doctor confirmed it too.

[pacovl46]

I didn't know that a newborn baby could show any symptoms about the direction his/her future sex life will take.

If you're talking about physical genital structures obviously that can be observed. If you're talking about future sexual orientation or gender identity variances when the genitals are clear, there likely isn't much available now to determine that or really any great socially beneficial reason to know. There are of course a number of theories going about the role of genetics in such things, but the science on such things is not fully baked.

That is exactly my understanding, though better worded by you,. So what is the point of having the third gender option ?

A newborn will have either a penis or a vagina, and I'm not aware of any having both .

Well, it seems your understanding isn't good enough then. And just because you aren't aware of the fact that some babies are born with a penis and a vagina doesn't mean it doesn't happen. The wikipedia entry on intersex will tell you all about it!

[pacovl46]

One can only be born male or female, thats it. How parents or whoever decides otherwise seems crazy. What ever their sexual orientation turns out to be once puberty kicks in is another thing.

Is it? Read the article on intersex on wikipedia!

[transam]

One can only be born male or female, thats it. How parents or whoever decides otherwise seems crazy. What ever their sexual orientation turns out to be once puberty kicks in is another thing.

Is it? Read the article on intersex on wikipedia!

Tell me if I am wrong here. A male is born with a todger, yes/no ?.....A female is born with a totally different piece of apparatus for a pee, and she has a second piece of apparatus that males are not born with to continue the reproduction of humans. Yes/no ?

So what does the third German newborn have that is different ?

[h90]

If I understand that right:

Babies that are born with both female and male or somehow unclear sexual organs, don't need to be pressed into male or female at this time.

There can be time to decide.

It has nothing to do with gender change. It is meant for medical problems.

If I understood it right....

[I knew this would happen]

And some are born with "both" of it. After birth it cannot be said with absolute certainty what "it" is. In such cases some parents decided to raise the child as a boy or girl and forced it to behave like that. These children got depressive. This third option leaves the door open for the future, it´s a good idea.

Edit: Yeah like h90 said already, too late for me.

Edited November 2, 2013 by I knew this would happen

[Mitker]

One can only be born male or female, thats it. How parents or whoever decides otherwise seems crazy. What ever their sexual orientation turns out to be once puberty kicks in is another thing.

Is it? Read the article on intersex on wikipedia!

Tell me if I am wrong here. A male is born with a todger, yes/no ?.....A female is born with a totally different piece of apparatus for a pee, and she has a second piece of apparatus that males are not born with to continue the reproduction of humans. Yes/no ?

So what does the third German newborn have that is different ?

Their system shows a mix of both. The same way grey is neither black or white; in all shades.

Typically, they used to be surgically "re-assigned" towards one of the general genders in early years according to the doctors choice most of the time.

If you look for testimonies of such cases, you will learn it led to real traumas (psychologically speaking) in many cases since the child was not part of the decision/choice and sometimes in lifelong medical complications.

The re-assignment is motivated by the social environment pressure, not by a medical necessity.

From this point of view, the German move is highly progressive and should be followed by any society that respects its individuals instead of imposing a cultural restrictive vision.

[tigermonkey]

If I understand that right:

Babies that are born with both female and male or somehow unclear sexual organs, don't need to be pressed into male or female at this time.

There can be time to decide.

It has nothing to do with gender change. It is meant for medical problems.

If I understood it right....

You are quite correct. At present, 1 to 2 % of live births have poorly defined or intersex organs, such as a penis with a central opening, like a vagina, in the scrotum. The present situation has been to force a decision immediately after birth, as to the child's gender. This is a decison that is driven by social definitions of male and female, and not clinical or psychychiaric definitions.

The usual decison is "female", and the result is the immediate surgical removal of the offending parts. Many refer to this as 'genital mutilation'.

The German law removes the need for an immediate male/female decision,and allows the gender decision to be made later by that individual themself.

[bumpkin]

after a 100,000 years of human life on earth, we are grateful to the German nation for coming to the rescue of mankind and setting us in the right direction.

Edited November 2, 2013 by bumpkin

[Bikkii]

This is absolutely f@@king wrong!

How the hell would a parent or a baby for that matter know anything about its sex, feelings or wants at that age. Just cause baby John decides to cuddle next to baby Bruce instead of baby Kylie in the group bed does not mean a f@@king thing.

This is an extortion of civil rights and taking this whole thing way too far. I thought parents had a duty of care?What happens to baby John if his parents (out of ignorance) make him an "other" cause of his early cuddling to baby Bruce yet he is as heterosexual as it comes? How does he feel growing up?

Disgraceful act and how anyone of you could condone this is pitiful!

Nothing wrong with being gay/transgender et al. but that is for the individual to decide not a family member to put that stigma on you.

[Jingthing]

This is absolutely f@@king wrong!

How the hell would a parent or a baby for that matter know anything about its sex, feelings or wants at that age. Just cause baby John decides to cuddle next to baby Bruce instead of baby Kylie in the group bed does not mean a f@@king thing.

This is an extortion of civil rights and taking this whole thing way too far. I thought parents had a duty of care?What happens to baby John if his parents (out of ignorance) make him an "other" cause of his early cuddling to baby Bruce yet he is as heterosexual as it comes? How does he feel growing up?

Disgraceful act and how anyone of you could condone this is pitiful!

Nothing wrong with being gay/transgender et al. but that is for the individual to decide not a family member to put that stigma on you.

You've got issues mixed up here.

It's about babies born with genitals that aren't clearly male or female or they are both.

So parents are generally forced to choose one sex or the other at that time, and it might be the wrong choice.

[Bikkii]

This is absolutely f@@king wrong!

How the hell would a parent or a baby for that matter know anything about its sex, feelings or wants at that age. Just cause baby John decides to cuddle next to baby Bruce instead of baby Kylie in the group bed does not mean a f@@king thing.

This is an extortion of civil rights and taking this whole thing way too far. I thought parents had a duty of care?What happens to baby John if his parents (out of ignorance) make him an "other" cause of his early cuddling to baby Bruce yet he is as heterosexual as it comes? How does he feel growing up?

Disgraceful act and how anyone of you could condone this is pitiful!

Nothing wrong with being gay/transgender et al. but that is for the individual to decide not a family member to put that stigma on you.

You've got issues mixed up here.

It's about babies born with genitals that aren't clearly male or female or they are both.

So parents are generally forced to choose one sex or the other at that time, and it might be the wrong choice.

Well ithat makes it a lot more moral then. Hopefully everything falls into place.